Yeah, everyone isn't beating on SWTOR, lol. Some are but some beat on WoW too. It just boils down to personal choice. Reviewers are individuals with their own game biases as well from what they are used to playing, so they may not like SWTOR or w/e game they are reviewing. It might shock you to know there are bad reviews of GW2 as well from reviewers who are raidheads.
Anyways, TOR won't be the last. Someone will always make something people need. Even today with all the cars around the world, people still make buggies for horses so... someone will always have a niche market to sell to.
Will the media push this industry into something it was never meant to be, action oriented?
the day this happen i will stop playing new mmos.... and stick with old standard mmos like wow, rift, swtor, etc..... action oriented games dont fit in my gamer mind, space, time..... i just dont like them and cant stand the mouse brawling action combat (DCUO, vindictus, tera and the rest of their family)... if it is not a console game, dont give me action brawling mmos....
i hope they dont do it...... thats my personal answer to the OP.
Everyone knows TOR will sell a lot of boxes come release just from the pre order number alone. People will love it when it first launches because it will feel like something completely different. The story and cut scenes are great and it will be a welcome change for any WoW fan. That being said some MMO die hards will most likely get burned out after a few months because game play wise it brings nothing very new or innovative to the genre. It looks a lot like Vanilla WoW did because gear didn't scale as much then and everyone had bad gear, this could stay the same or item levels could multiply so much it quickly becomes the gear > skill model of WoW. The casuals playing WoW would most likely flock to TOR because it's the same thing but newer.
GW2 on the other hand will have a good dedicated fan base of hardcore MMO players and MMO veterans who want a new game to play. If the game is fun people will keep playing and even has the appeal to casuals who can often quit for weeks at a time since it is a F2P game. It offers a new style of twitch based gameplay with a similar tab targeting system. The main thing to push casuals away is that it's in a fantasy setting, you either like it or you don't. GW2 is different from TOR in the fact Anet has pushed the game more towards choice, an example would be the death of the trinity in the game. You and your friends have the choice of playing any class you want and still be a viable team. In TOR you need at least 1 friend to be a tank and 1 to be a healer even though they may have wanted to be dps.
I expect both games to do very well upon release, I just see GW2 staying healthier than TOR because of the F2P model and newer game play. Lots of people into single player games and not MMO's will most likely pick GW2 over TOR based on the fact alone that being able to log into their world is more similar to a single player game. By that I mean you don't need to pay a subscription for Assassins Creed or God of War to get everything from the game. I know when I first started playing MMO's a big drawback to me was the pay to play model, but as I got into the genre it became ok. TOR will keep the casual playerbase of WoW and GW2 is more likely to pick up new gamers. Only in the end will we know the true outcome of either game.
Only problem is that these die hards you mention are very few in number and makes up less than 5% of the MMO crowd. I don't see GW 2 keeping it's initial players and turn into a GW 1 where players log in to play for 2 hours (to do pvp) and log off. I honestly don't see GW 2 get any bigger than EVE or champions online. Casuals don't care about gameplay as much as we do. They wanna play a star wars game where they can be a jedi, get into the story. raid every night, and collect pets. And the trinity won't be an issue in TOR because it will have dual spec. You can be dps or healer or tank with one character. Remember Advance classes offer 3 trees. Dual spec is coming to TOR: http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916
If TOR makes money this style of MMO will be popular and emulated over and over again until another game with different mechanics makes more money.
Pretty much this ^
Movies are a comparable example. No matter how bad they are as long as they make loads of money more and more will be made with more and more spent on them.
This is what I don't see happening, I also have a feeling TOR will be ripped apart by the media at large. Not even for being a bad game, but for being a familiar one. If they're already doing it in previews, I don't see why it would change at release.
We know DEVs have for the longest time been sticking to safe design practices, which is why we've had so many games like WOW. When that design is no longer viewed as safe, I don't see that continuing.
It won't be seen as safe, it'll be seen as too safe, i.e. uninspired. However, I don't think the media will rip apart TOR for using familiar game systems. How many previews have done that? Maybe two? Overall the amount of press TOR has recieved has been overall positive, with a few negative reviews thrown in for various reasons.
Originally posted by Guileplayer Originally posted by Ganjan12 Everyone knows TOR will sell a lot of boxes come release just from the pre order number alone. People will love it when it first launches because it will feel like something completely different. The story and cut scenes are great and it will be a welcome change for any WoW fan. That being said some MMO die hards will most likely get burned out after a few months because game play wise it brings nothing very new or innovative to the genre. It looks a lot like Vanilla WoW did because gear didn't scale as much then and everyone had bad gear, this could stay the same or item levels could multiply so much it quickly becomes the gear > skill model of WoW. The casuals playing WoW would most likely flock to TOR because it's the same thing but newer. GW2 on the other hand will have a good dedicated fan base of hardcore MMO players and MMO veterans who want a new game to play. If the game is fun people will keep playing and even has the appeal to casuals who can often quit for weeks at a time since it is a F2P game. It offers a new style of twitch based gameplay with a similar tab targeting system. The main thing to push casuals away is that it's in a fantasy setting, you either like it or you don't. GW2 is different from TOR in the fact Anet has pushed the game more towards choice, an example would be the death of the trinity in the game. You and your friends have the choice of playing any class you want and still be a viable team. In TOR you need at least 1 friend to be a tank and 1 to be a healer even though they may have wanted to be dps. I expect both games to do very well upon release, I just see GW2 staying healthier than TOR because of the F2P model and newer game play. Lots of people into single player games and not MMO's will most likely pick GW2 over TOR based on the fact alone that being able to log into their world is more similar to a single player game. By that I mean you don't need to pay a subscription for Assassins Creed or God of War to get everything from the game. I know when I first started playing MMO's a big drawback to me was the pay to play model, but as I got into the genre it became ok. TOR will keep the casual playerbase of WoW and GW2 is more likely to pick up new gamers. Only in the end will we know the true outcome of either game.
Only problem is that these die hards you mention are very few in number and makes up less than 5% of the MMO crowd. I don't see GW 2 keeping it's initial players and turn into a GW 1 where players log in to play for 2 hours (to do pvp) and log off. I honestly don't see GW 2 get any bigger than EVE or champions online. Casuals don't care about gameplay as much as we do. They wanna play a star wars game where they can be a jedi, get into the story. raid every night, and collect pets. And the trinity won't be an issue in TOR because it will have dual spec. You can be dps or healer or tank with one character. Remember Advance classes offer 3 trees. Dual spec is coming to TOR: http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916
That said, TOR won't be the last of the traditional combat MMO's. So many people still love the traditional, turn-based single player RPG for the stories, and strategizing. The traditional MMO is its closest closest cousin. The new, action style MMO is more like a fork of the original, not a total replacement.
That said, TOR won't be the last of the traditional combat MMO's. So many people still love the traditional, turn-based single player RPG for the stories, and strategizing. The traditional MMO is its closest closest cousin. The new, action style MMO is more like a fork of the original, not a total replacement.
Those numbers are misleading. Thats for all of guild wars expansions. Did you notice how WoW only sold 12 million and GW1 sold 6 million, yet GW1 counts all of its expansions? What if you counted all of WoWs expansions in the amount of boxes they sold? That would dwarf GW2 8 times over. On top of that, take any single player can, then count its DLC as additional box sales, or its sequels... see the problem here? GW1 isn't one of the best selling games, its one of the most successful collections of games. It even says it in the wikipedia article that its counting all of what it released. Did you notice no other game on the list has that caveat? Even the sims 2 pets expansion was counted separately.
Moving along from that... have we stopped making puzzle games? Have we stopped making shooters, or racing games, or adventure games? Do we still have hack and slash games? All types of games can coexist.
Will traditional MMOs cease after SWTOR.. maybe a bit, but then people will remember they did exist and come back to them. Thats how it goes.
Will TOR be the last MMO built for those of us who prefer the traditional MMO mechanics it incorporates? With so many major publications beating on Bioware over their choices in design, I really don't see many following in their footsteps. Will the media push this industry into something it was never meant to be, action oriented?
I don't think it will be the last, because several are no doubt being developed as we write about this (maybe not AAA, but F2P is becoming stronger all the time). But if TOR were to fail bigtime because you simply can't build a better WoW than the creators of WoW, then yes, it might be the last big money attempt to "dethrone" WoW the "traditional" (=WoW) way. On the other hand if GW2 succeeds because it is significantly different with respect to the beaten to death mechanics of WoW, then we might yet see some new things come along in the future.
If TOR makes money this style of MMO will be popular and emulated over and over again until another game with different mechanics makes more money.
Lmao Sw tor base game design is a carbon copy of WoW . You will quest your ass off until max level where you wil farm BG for token or instance/raid for gear .
WoW game design was based off Everquest . So at best ppl copy Everquest . Donc expect Swtor to be anything new from wow beside the voice over and some stuff but that get old prety fast . ( played beta weekend )
That said, TOR won't be the last of the traditional combat MMO's. So many people still love the traditional, turn-based single player RPG for the stories, and strategizing. The traditional MMO is its closest closest cousin. The new, action style MMO is more like a fork of the original, not a total replacement.
Those numbers are misleading. Thats for all of guild wars expansions. Did you notice how WoW only sold 12 million and GW1 sold 6 million, yet GW1 counts all of its expansions? What if you counted all of WoWs expansions in the amount of boxes they sold? That would dwarf GW2 8 times over. On top of that, take any single player can, then count its DLC as additional box sales, or its sequels... see the problem here? GW1 isn't one of the best selling games, its one of the most successful collections of games. It even says it in the wikipedia article that its counting all of what it released. Did you notice no other game on the list has that caveat? Even the sims 2 pets expansion was counted separately.
Moving along from that... have we stopped making puzzle games? Have we stopped making shooters, or racing games, or adventure games? Do we still have hack and slash games? All types of games can coexist.
Will traditional MMOs cease after SWTOR.. maybe a bit, but then people will remember they did exist and come back to them. Thats how it goes.
So what? Even if the original Guild Wars included expansions to reach 6 million, it is still in pretty good company.
If people think that GW2 is somehow going to reverse course, and end up with niche subscriber numbers, they'll need to make a better case than what's been shown in this thread.
I know others have answered similarly, but it think its to soon to answer this question. Its all about ToR's success, in initial sales, which I think most everyone agrees will be huge, and in long term subscription retention and growth. If ToR holds its subs and has some growth while WoW continues what seems to me to be a slow decline from old age, I think it tells developers that there is room for 1 huge themepark game at a time.
This IMO would be a great outcome because it keeps the big money players interested in the genre. They would see that with the right concept and timing and investment, they can achieve the WoW-like numbers and profits. At the same time, it also tells the smaller developers not to even think about it- they don't have what it takes to play on that level, so they need to inovate, find other niches to fill, and redefine success- just because X games has 12 billion players doesn't mean another MMO with 300k-500k players is unsuccessful.
The action-oriented gameplay aspect will solve itself I think. If a key element of a games design is poor or simply a bad fit for the game, it will do poorly. A good example of this personally is Darkfall- They went for action or twich type gameplay in what was already a very niche game, and it cost them a lot of players like me. the next small developer that wants to make a similar game can look at DF and ask if they want to repeat that mistake.
I know others have answered similarly, but it think its to soon to answer this question. Its all about ToR's success, in initial sales, which I think most everyone agrees will be huge, and in long term subscription retention and growth. If ToR holds its subs and has some growth while WoW continues what seems to me to be a slow decline from old age, I think it tells developers that there is room for 1 huge themepark game at a time.
This IMO would be a great outcome because it keeps the big money players interested in the genre. They would see that with the right concept and timing and investment, they can achieve the WoW-like numbers and profits. At the same time, it also tells the smaller developers not to even think about it- they don't have what it takes to play on that level, so they need to inovate, find other niches to fill, and redefine success- just because X games has 12 billion players doesn't mean another MMO with 300k-500k players is unsuccessful.
The action-oriented gameplay aspect will solve itself I think. If a key element of a games design is poor or simply a bad fit for the game, it will do poorly. A good example of this personally is Darkfall- They went for action or twich type gameplay in what was already a very niche game, and it cost them a lot of players like me. the next small developer that wants to make a similar game can look at DF and ask if they want to repeat that mistake.
Will TOR be the last MMO built for those of us who prefer the traditional MMO mechanics it incorporates? With so many major publications beating on Bioware over their choices in design, I really don't see many following in their footsteps. Will the media push this industry into something it was never meant to be, action oriented?
No it will not.....
Only the IP Star Wars will make sure they will sell millions of copies of the game... combined with Biowares Story teling, this game might actually draw a lot of non MMO players to the genre that will have a first MMO experience and declare SW:TOR the most awesome game ever.... Much like everyone else has ever done with their first MMO.
Seeling those millions of boxes will tell most MMO developers that the classic way could still be the right way to go, it certainly is the easiest way...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
That said, TOR won't be the last of the traditional combat MMO's. So many people still love the traditional, turn-based single player RPG for the stories, and strategizing. The traditional MMO is its closest closest cousin. The new, action style MMO is more like a fork of the original, not a total replacement.
Those numbers are misleading. Thats for all of guild wars expansions. Did you notice how WoW only sold 12 million and GW1 sold 6 million, yet GW1 counts all of its expansions? What if you counted all of WoWs expansions in the amount of boxes they sold? That would dwarf GW2 8 times over. On top of that, take any single player can, then count its DLC as additional box sales, or its sequels... see the problem here? GW1 isn't one of the best selling games, its one of the most successful collections of games. It even says it in the wikipedia article that its counting all of what it released. Did you notice no other game on the list has that caveat? Even the sims 2 pets expansion was counted separately.
Moving along from that... have we stopped making puzzle games? Have we stopped making shooters, or racing games, or adventure games? Do we still have hack and slash games? All types of games can coexist.
Will traditional MMOs cease after SWTOR.. maybe a bit, but then people will remember they did exist and come back to them. Thats how it goes.
So what? Even if the original Guild Wars included expansions to reach 6 million, it is still in pretty good company.
If people think that GW2 is somehow going to reverse course, and end up with niche subscriber numbers, they'll need to make a better case than what's been shown in this thread.
I guess it doesn't really matter though.
All I was saying was that the numbers are misleading. That doesn't mean 6 million people bought 1 game. Thats all I was pointing out.... 6 million boxes weer bought out of 4 games.... its much different. For example, Mass Effect 1 and 2 would have outsold that easily. Modern warfare 2 would have as well. Gears of War would have even outsold it if you want to talk about map packs being sold too.
I'm not saying thats not successful, but its not one of the most successful games ever. By the standard they used to determine that, a lot of games are amazingly successful, which would be equally misleading if you're going by volume of what was sole.
I don't see it as 1 or the other. Action twitch or standard trinity are the only options?
It wont be easy to clone the story / vo aspect so I'm sure we will see some change in the industry.
As for what MMO's were mean't to be...it was never meant to be what it is right now, as far as I can tell, it was supposed to be a substitute for table top RPGing but since the rpg aspect is absent from mmo's...
If TOR fails then maybe AAA trinity mmos might have their days numbered.
Will TOR be the last MMO built for those of us who prefer the traditional MMO mechanics it incorporates? With so many major publications beating on Bioware over their choices in design, I really don't see many following in their footsteps. Will the media push this industry into something it was never meant to be, action oriented?
Let's pretend for a moment that your (Distopia) greatest hope was that TOR fails. Why would you want it to. It's a serious question.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
you guys forgeting something.. gw2 is a no subscribers game, ToR is.. total diferent player markets.
For a game to succed as good as for instance Wow did, it has to keep growing or at least keeping the subscribers base, not loosing it after the initial launch like most mmos been doing for years. It has to be a very well planned game in several senses/areas to achieve it.
At this point its impossible to say if Tor will succeed or not.. we have to see what the game will bring once it goes live, how well it will be able to stay appealing in the long run, how well will it be managed in terms of nerf/buffing/class tuning, how many pavlov cookies players will have to keep them addicted to it.. and so on.
That said, TOR won't be the last of the traditional combat MMO's. So many people still love the traditional, turn-based single player RPG for the stories, and strategizing. The traditional MMO is its closest closest cousin. The new, action style MMO is more like a fork of the original, not a total replacement.
Those numbers are misleading. Thats for all of guild wars expansions. Did you notice how WoW only sold 12 million and GW1 sold 6 million, yet GW1 counts all of its expansions? What if you counted all of WoWs expansions in the amount of boxes they sold? That would dwarf GW2 8 times over. On top of that, take any single player can, then count its DLC as additional box sales, or its sequels... see the problem here? GW1 isn't one of the best selling games, its one of the most successful collections of games. It even says it in the wikipedia article that its counting all of what it released. Did you notice no other game on the list has that caveat? Even the sims 2 pets expansion was counted separately.
Moving along from that... have we stopped making puzzle games? Have we stopped making shooters, or racing games, or adventure games? Do we still have hack and slash games? All types of games can coexist.
Will traditional MMOs cease after SWTOR.. maybe a bit, but then people will remember they did exist and come back to them. Thats how it goes.
So what? Even if the original Guild Wars included expansions to reach 6 million, it is still in pretty good company.
If people think that GW2 is somehow going to reverse course, and end up with niche subscriber numbers, they'll need to make a better case than what's been shown in this thread.
I guess it doesn't really matter though.
All I was saying was that the numbers are misleading. That doesn't mean 6 million people bought 1 game. Thats all I was pointing out.... 6 million boxes weer bought out of 4 games.... its much different. For example, Mass Effect 1 and 2 would have outsold that easily. Modern warfare 2 would have as well. Gears of War would have even outsold it if you want to talk about map packs being sold too.
I'm not saying thats not successful, but its not one of the most successful games ever. By the standard they used to determine that, a lot of games are amazingly successful, which would be equally misleading if you're going by volume of what was sole.
Lol, I feel like I have to harp on this. I'm sorry to the OP, since his question has already been answered, but the Wiki article is more accurate than what you're citing here.
Mass Effect 1 and 2 sold around 7 million copies. Combined. Across all platforms.
Those are great numbers, but they are also 2 different games, not just expansions.That would be like citing the numbers for GW1 and GW2. Also, the Wiki article I linked was for PC games only. Only a fraction of the Mass Effect sales went to PC.
Also, GW1 was an MMO without a subscription. I think it's fair to combine all of the expansions, since all together they are less than or equivalent in price, to what you would have paid in subscription fees over the same time period in a subscription based MMO.
I think the Wiki article is accurate that GW is one of the best selling PC games off all time, and definitely the 2nd best selling MMO. Clearly WoW is the 700 pond gorilla though.
That said, TOR won't be the last of the traditional combat MMO's. So many people still love the traditional, turn-based single player RPG for the stories, and strategizing. The traditional MMO is its closest closest cousin. The new, action style MMO is more like a fork of the original, not a total replacement.
Those numbers are misleading. Thats for all of guild wars expansions. Did you notice how WoW only sold 12 million and GW1 sold 6 million, yet GW1 counts all of its expansions? What if you counted all of WoWs expansions in the amount of boxes they sold? That would dwarf GW2 8 times over. On top of that, take any single player can, then count its DLC as additional box sales, or its sequels... see the problem here? GW1 isn't one of the best selling games, its one of the most successful collections of games. It even says it in the wikipedia article that its counting all of what it released. Did you notice no other game on the list has that caveat? Even the sims 2 pets expansion was counted separately.
Moving along from that... have we stopped making puzzle games? Have we stopped making shooters, or racing games, or adventure games? Do we still have hack and slash games? All types of games can coexist.
Will traditional MMOs cease after SWTOR.. maybe a bit, but then people will remember they did exist and come back to them. Thats how it goes.
So what? Even if the original Guild Wars included expansions to reach 6 million, it is still in pretty good company.
If people think that GW2 is somehow going to reverse course, and end up with niche subscriber numbers, they'll need to make a better case than what's been shown in this thread.
I guess it doesn't really matter though.
All I was saying was that the numbers are misleading. That doesn't mean 6 million people bought 1 game. Thats all I was pointing out.... 6 million boxes weer bought out of 4 games.... its much different. For example, Mass Effect 1 and 2 would have outsold that easily. Modern warfare 2 would have as well. Gears of War would have even outsold it if you want to talk about map packs being sold too.
I'm not saying thats not successful, but its not one of the most successful games ever. By the standard they used to determine that, a lot of games are amazingly successful, which would be equally misleading if you're going by volume of what was sole.
Lol, I feel like I have to harp on this. I'm sorry to the OP, since his question has already been answered, but the Wiki article is more accurate than what you're citing here.
Mass Effect 1 and 2 sold around 7 million copies. Combined. Across all platforms.
Those are great numbers, but they are also 2 different games, not just expansions.That would be like citing the numbers for GW1 and GW2. Also, the Wiki article I linked was for PC games only. Only a fraction of the Mass Effect sales went to PC.
Also, GW1 was an MMO without a subscription. I think it's fair to combine all of the expansions, since all together they are less than or equivalent in price, to what you would have paid in subscription fees over the same time period in a subscription based MMO.
I think the Wiki article is accurate that GW is one of the best selling PC games off all time, and definitely the 2nd best selling MMO. Clearly WoW is the 700 pond gorilla though.
Thats incorrect, most of Guild Wars 1s "expansions" were stand alone titles, meaning you didn't need prophecies to play nightfall.
On top of that, how many sales did they have of ME 1 or 2s downloadable content? Was that even factored in? Its a bogus statement. Its like saying, how many expansions did EQ2 or Lineage 2 come out with? How many did they sell? Its very misleading when you take into consideration all of the box sales of every game Anets ever put out, even if they all had a Guild Wars title on it. Its a really cheap way of calculating sales, if all you had to do to get on the bestseller list is keep putting out expansions and stand alone games with the same title, then it would be really simple for even the most terrible of games to hit the "best seller list"
Especially since the "6 million copies" means very little when you package 3 copies for a discounted rate at most retailers nowadays.
A lot to respond to here so I'll try and say it all in a few points.
First no I don't wish TOR to fail, why anyone would ask me that question is a little baffling. I guess in the end if you're thought of as a fanboi, as well as a hater you're doing something right.
Yes there can and should always be options for those who prefer the style of game-play TOR will and most MMO's have offered. I just fear the genre is being forcefully pushed to be something else, you see it in forums (have for a while), you see it in website/video comments, now we're seeing it in the media. PCgamer, gameinformer, Massively are just a few examples where I've seen this commentary getting stronger.
We do have a few traditional options coming after TOR, in TSW (skill based progression is a traditional MMO mechanic), Wildstar (I think) and Archeage. What is to come after though? PS2, Zombie labs MMO, GW2 (Ofc), Firefall, etc..(much too early to say much about EQ next).
If these games do well, well would be better than the last few years of MMO gaming. I fear we may see this industry barrel roll down those avenues. Is that fear a definite? Of course not, I have no crystal ball. I don't think it's an outlandish fear to have though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Honestly stop with the same threads already. This is getting embarrassing for you.
Well you don't see anyone from TOR boards going to other boards to start these threads. It's always some insecure fanboy who starts these topics.
Wait, What? I'm in the TOR section right, the game I've been following,supporting, hell even defending for the last few months?
If you support the game they why did you start this topic? You mention the media is slamming it for being a traditional MMO. Besides some few small websites TOR has mostly positive reviews. And have you seen the 2 previews that came out of the Eurogamer expo demo. Did you see those reviewers preview this game by comparing to GW2? It is like me reviewing Halo by comparing it with CoD. I give halo a 2/10 because it's campaign is not as epic or intense (not saying halo sucks but opinions vary), or it's multiplayer is not as fast as CoD (again opinion). Instead of judging the game for itself. I can preview GW2 like that too by comparing it DAoC rvr, Public quests from other games, lack of raiding (which most MMO players still enjoy because they log in WoW), Lack of a proper gear system (again which most MMO players still enjoy) etc.
If you support the game they why did you start this topic? You mention the media is slamming it for being a traditional MMO. Besides some few small websites TOR has mostly positive reviews. And have you seen the 2 previews that came out of the Eurogamer expo demo. Did you see those reviewers preview this game by comparing to GW2? It is like me reviewing Halo by comparing it with CoD. I give halo a 2/10 because it's campaign is not as epic or intense (not saying halo sucks but opinions vary), or it's multiplayer is not as fast as CoD (again opinion). Instead of judging the game for itself. I can preview GW2 like that too by comparing it DAoC rvr, Public quests from other games, lack of raiding (which most MMO players still enjoy because they log in WoW), Lack of a proper gear system (again which most MMO players still enjoy) etc.
you can talk about MMO's and the industry in general without having to be a fanboy or a hater, and I think his posting history supports his claims. The way I understand it, what you are posting is exactly what the OP was talking about th media doing, so unless I'm really confused you agree with him?
Comments
Yeah, everyone isn't beating on SWTOR, lol. Some are but some beat on WoW too. It just boils down to personal choice. Reviewers are individuals with their own game biases as well from what they are used to playing, so they may not like SWTOR or w/e game they are reviewing. It might shock you to know there are bad reviews of GW2 as well from reviewers who are raidheads.
Anyways, TOR won't be the last. Someone will always make something people need. Even today with all the cars around the world, people still make buggies for horses so... someone will always have a niche market to sell to.
"TO MICHAEL!"
the day this happen i will stop playing new mmos.... and stick with old standard mmos like wow, rift, swtor, etc..... action oriented games dont fit in my gamer mind, space, time..... i just dont like them and cant stand the mouse brawling action combat (DCUO, vindictus, tera and the rest of their family)... if it is not a console game, dont give me action brawling mmos....
i hope they dont do it...... thats my personal answer to the OP.
Only problem is that these die hards you mention are very few in number and makes up less than 5% of the MMO crowd. I don't see GW 2 keeping it's initial players and turn into a GW 1 where players log in to play for 2 hours (to do pvp) and log off. I honestly don't see GW 2 get any bigger than EVE or champions online. Casuals don't care about gameplay as much as we do. They wanna play a star wars game where they can be a jedi, get into the story. raid every night, and collect pets. And the trinity won't be an issue in TOR because it will have dual spec. You can be dps or healer or tank with one character. Remember Advance classes offer 3 trees. Dual spec is coming to TOR: http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
It won't be seen as safe, it'll be seen as too safe, i.e. uninspired. However, I don't think the media will rip apart TOR for using familiar game systems. How many previews have done that? Maybe two? Overall the amount of press TOR has recieved has been overall positive, with a few negative reviews thrown in for various reasons.
I'm a bit concerned it may be too big.
Boo.
Are you for real?
The original Guild Wars is still one of the highest selling PC games of all time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#PC If GW2 is by any measure more successful than the last iteration, it must be considered huge success.
That said, TOR won't be the last of the traditional combat MMO's. So many people still love the traditional, turn-based single player RPG for the stories, and strategizing. The traditional MMO is its closest closest cousin. The new, action style MMO is more like a fork of the original, not a total replacement.
Those numbers are misleading. Thats for all of guild wars expansions. Did you notice how WoW only sold 12 million and GW1 sold 6 million, yet GW1 counts all of its expansions? What if you counted all of WoWs expansions in the amount of boxes they sold? That would dwarf GW2 8 times over. On top of that, take any single player can, then count its DLC as additional box sales, or its sequels... see the problem here? GW1 isn't one of the best selling games, its one of the most successful collections of games. It even says it in the wikipedia article that its counting all of what it released. Did you notice no other game on the list has that caveat? Even the sims 2 pets expansion was counted separately.
Moving along from that... have we stopped making puzzle games? Have we stopped making shooters, or racing games, or adventure games? Do we still have hack and slash games? All types of games can coexist.
Will traditional MMOs cease after SWTOR.. maybe a bit, but then people will remember they did exist and come back to them. Thats how it goes.
I don't think it will be the last, because several are no doubt being developed as we write about this (maybe not AAA, but F2P is becoming stronger all the time). But if TOR were to fail bigtime because you simply can't build a better WoW than the creators of WoW, then yes, it might be the last big money attempt to "dethrone" WoW the "traditional" (=WoW) way. On the other hand if GW2 succeeds because it is significantly different with respect to the beaten to death mechanics of WoW, then we might yet see some new things come along in the future.
Lmao Sw tor base game design is a carbon copy of WoW . You will quest your ass off until max level where you wil farm BG for token or instance/raid for gear .
WoW game design was based off Everquest . So at best ppl copy Everquest . Donc expect Swtor to be anything new from wow beside the voice over and some stuff but that get old prety fast . ( played beta weekend )
Moving along from that... have we stopped making puzzle games? Have we stopped making shooters, or racing games, or adventure games? Do we still have hack and slash games? All types of games can coexist.
Will traditional MMOs cease after SWTOR.. maybe a bit, but then people will remember they did exist and come back to them. Thats how it goes.
So what? Even if the original Guild Wars included expansions to reach 6 million, it is still in pretty good company.
If people think that GW2 is somehow going to reverse course, and end up with niche subscriber numbers, they'll need to make a better case than what's been shown in this thread.
I guess it doesn't really matter though.
I know others have answered similarly, but it think its to soon to answer this question. Its all about ToR's success, in initial sales, which I think most everyone agrees will be huge, and in long term subscription retention and growth. If ToR holds its subs and has some growth while WoW continues what seems to me to be a slow decline from old age, I think it tells developers that there is room for 1 huge themepark game at a time.
This IMO would be a great outcome because it keeps the big money players interested in the genre. They would see that with the right concept and timing and investment, they can achieve the WoW-like numbers and profits. At the same time, it also tells the smaller developers not to even think about it- they don't have what it takes to play on that level, so they need to inovate, find other niches to fill, and redefine success- just because X games has 12 billion players doesn't mean another MMO with 300k-500k players is unsuccessful.
The action-oriented gameplay aspect will solve itself I think. If a key element of a games design is poor or simply a bad fit for the game, it will do poorly. A good example of this personally is Darkfall- They went for action or twich type gameplay in what was already a very niche game, and it cost them a lot of players like me. the next small developer that wants to make a similar game can look at DF and ask if they want to repeat that mistake.
12 billion? Wow!
No it will not.....
Only the IP Star Wars will make sure they will sell millions of copies of the game... combined with Biowares Story teling, this game might actually draw a lot of non MMO players to the genre that will have a first MMO experience and declare SW:TOR the most awesome game ever.... Much like everyone else has ever done with their first MMO.
Seeling those millions of boxes will tell most MMO developers that the classic way could still be the right way to go, it certainly is the easiest way...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
All I was saying was that the numbers are misleading. That doesn't mean 6 million people bought 1 game. Thats all I was pointing out.... 6 million boxes weer bought out of 4 games.... its much different. For example, Mass Effect 1 and 2 would have outsold that easily. Modern warfare 2 would have as well. Gears of War would have even outsold it if you want to talk about map packs being sold too.
I'm not saying thats not successful, but its not one of the most successful games ever. By the standard they used to determine that, a lot of games are amazingly successful, which would be equally misleading if you're going by volume of what was sole.
@OP
I don't see it as 1 or the other. Action twitch or standard trinity are the only options?
It wont be easy to clone the story / vo aspect so I'm sure we will see some change in the industry.
As for what MMO's were mean't to be...it was never meant to be what it is right now, as far as I can tell, it was supposed to be a substitute for table top RPGing but since the rpg aspect is absent from mmo's...
If TOR fails then maybe AAA trinity mmos might have their days numbered.
"LOL"
Let's pretend for a moment that your (Distopia) greatest hope was that TOR fails. Why would you want it to. It's a serious question.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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you guys forgeting something.. gw2 is a no subscribers game, ToR is.. total diferent player markets.
For a game to succed as good as for instance Wow did, it has to keep growing or at least keeping the subscribers base, not loosing it after the initial launch like most mmos been doing for years. It has to be a very well planned game in several senses/areas to achieve it.
At this point its impossible to say if Tor will succeed or not.. we have to see what the game will bring once it goes live, how well it will be able to stay appealing in the long run, how well will it be managed in terms of nerf/buffing/class tuning, how many pavlov cookies players will have to keep them addicted to it.. and so on.
Lol, I feel like I have to harp on this. I'm sorry to the OP, since his question has already been answered, but the Wiki article is more accurate than what you're citing here.
Mass Effect 1 and 2 sold around 7 million copies. Combined. Across all platforms.
Those are great numbers, but they are also 2 different games, not just expansions.That would be like citing the numbers for GW1 and GW2. Also, the Wiki article I linked was for PC games only. Only a fraction of the Mass Effect sales went to PC.
Also, GW1 was an MMO without a subscription. I think it's fair to combine all of the expansions, since all together they are less than or equivalent in price, to what you would have paid in subscription fees over the same time period in a subscription based MMO.
I think the Wiki article is accurate that GW is one of the best selling PC games off all time, and definitely the 2nd best selling MMO. Clearly WoW is the 700 pond gorilla though.
Thats incorrect, most of Guild Wars 1s "expansions" were stand alone titles, meaning you didn't need prophecies to play nightfall.
On top of that, how many sales did they have of ME 1 or 2s downloadable content? Was that even factored in? Its a bogus statement. Its like saying, how many expansions did EQ2 or Lineage 2 come out with? How many did they sell? Its very misleading when you take into consideration all of the box sales of every game Anets ever put out, even if they all had a Guild Wars title on it. Its a really cheap way of calculating sales, if all you had to do to get on the bestseller list is keep putting out expansions and stand alone games with the same title, then it would be really simple for even the most terrible of games to hit the "best seller list"
Especially since the "6 million copies" means very little when you package 3 copies for a discounted rate at most retailers nowadays.
Honestly stop with the same threads already. This is getting embarrassing for you.
Well you don't see anyone from TOR boards going to other boards to start these threads. It's always some insecure fanboy who starts these topics.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
Wait, What? I'm in the TOR section right, the game I've been following,supporting, hell even defending for the last few months?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A lot to respond to here so I'll try and say it all in a few points.
First no I don't wish TOR to fail, why anyone would ask me that question is a little baffling. I guess in the end if you're thought of as a fanboi, as well as a hater you're doing something right.
Yes there can and should always be options for those who prefer the style of game-play TOR will and most MMO's have offered. I just fear the genre is being forcefully pushed to be something else, you see it in forums (have for a while), you see it in website/video comments, now we're seeing it in the media. PCgamer, gameinformer, Massively are just a few examples where I've seen this commentary getting stronger.
We do have a few traditional options coming after TOR, in TSW (skill based progression is a traditional MMO mechanic), Wildstar (I think) and Archeage. What is to come after though? PS2, Zombie labs MMO, GW2 (Ofc), Firefall, etc..(much too early to say much about EQ next).
If these games do well, well would be better than the last few years of MMO gaming. I fear we may see this industry barrel roll down those avenues. Is that fear a definite? Of course not, I have no crystal ball. I don't think it's an outlandish fear to have though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you support the game they why did you start this topic? You mention the media is slamming it for being a traditional MMO. Besides some few small websites TOR has mostly positive reviews. And have you seen the 2 previews that came out of the Eurogamer expo demo. Did you see those reviewers preview this game by comparing to GW2? It is like me reviewing Halo by comparing it with CoD. I give halo a 2/10 because it's campaign is not as epic or intense (not saying halo sucks but opinions vary), or it's multiplayer is not as fast as CoD (again opinion). Instead of judging the game for itself. I can preview GW2 like that too by comparing it DAoC rvr, Public quests from other games, lack of raiding (which most MMO players still enjoy because they log in WoW), Lack of a proper gear system (again which most MMO players still enjoy) etc.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
you can talk about MMO's and the industry in general without having to be a fanboy or a hater, and I think his posting history supports his claims. The way I understand it, what you are posting is exactly what the OP was talking about th media doing, so unless I'm really confused you agree with him?