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Interesting article on Massively
monarc333
Member UncommonPosts: 622
Just read this and thought I would share it. It has some really great points about the game.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10/11/the-soapbox-watch-out-bioware-its-a-wow-trap/
Comments
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Seems like he was making points more about what is happening to WoW moreso than what he expects to happen to SWTOR. It's more of a "don't do what these guys did" approach than anything. But I do agree with most of those points being something you want to avoid, with the exception of the "forum anarchy." That's not avoidable for games that are as popular, and polarizing, as WoW and SWTOR. It just comes with the territory, unfortunately. I'd also like to point out that nearly every MMO on the market slows down in their content updates after a while. I guarantee that a year from now Trion will have slowed down considerably with how much content they are putting out. MMOs almost always put out content quickly after launch because most of the stuff is simply things that didn't make it in by launch, so it's stuff they had nearly ready to go, and put on the backburner. Even WoW released updates at a decent pace after they launched. Once a game has been out a while, there is less stuff that needs to be added to it, and less innovation that can be put into the patches, so they inevitably come slower.
Actually, it has some really great points about the author's opinions of how Bioware should run thier show; thus, Soapbox.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I liked it. The guy was just saying "hey watch out for this" to BW. Nothing wrong with that. Hell I wish every developer would read that.
The real question is that is Bioware going to listen ? Do any devs listen ?
Bwuahahaha! That makes me laugh. Wishing Bioware listens.
*wipes tears from the eyes*
You mean the "we can't talk about this" company? When DA2 was flamed as big failure everywhere, all they admitted was "it had a different philosophy". lol. Yeah. Aristotle had a different philosophy, Descartes had a different philosophy, but DA2 just was a FAILGAME.
As to TOR... I expect a lot of harsh critique in the reviews once the game launches. While some parts seem to be really cool, it has way too many flaws, which just exist because they did NOT listen, because they totally ignored every substantial critique and their PR washed bla bla is already on par with Blizzard levels. Like Mr. Ericksons "we won't add alien races because players are too dumb to indentify with them". Bioware ALWAYS talked down on players, they NEVER give any real, detailled explanations of their thinking and planning - much on contraty to ANet and their very detailled explanations behind everything done in GW2. If you want to look how GOOD communication and explanation is look at ANets blogs VS those arrogant, non-caring PR washed Bioware statements!
When the same gender topic was first mentioned, TWO YEARS AGO, and still they "forgot" to add same gender characters! FORGOT! And then, when some dev accidentally spoils there are none in it, it takes Bioware EIGHT WEEKS just to say "we add them later", and when Mr.Erickson is asked, if he wants to explain the idea behind it by a journalist, he just answers: "No". End of debate, the Leader has spoken. If that is not arrogant, I don't know WHAT IS!
But as Blizzards WOW proofs, the old saying about the flies and the shit eating is still true. It will be a roaring financial success, just as WOW, but an equally mediocre and superfluous game in any term of bringing the genre ahead. Bioware is a bunch of arrogant, self-righteous folks if ever I have seen one!
The game hasn't even launched and I am ALREADY pissed about their behavior!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
U mad bro?
Sounds like you are just mad other people (millions) are going to be enjoying something that you personal don't like and are raging about it...
Both of the schools of thought about WoW, the "12 million people can't be wrong" AND the "12 million people doesn't make it a good game"
both of those crowds are WRONG about WoW.
Millions like it, millions don't.
The world keeps spinning.
Next topic?
Elikal is going to play it, he just likes to be overly dramatic sometimes. Most importantly, he should know more than anyone BioWare does listen. I can prove it in just one, single acronym and Elikal will know exactly what I'm talking about: SGR
The truth is, BioWares always released more information on their game then Anet or any other company across the span of their development. Thats both a blessing and a curse. In that same avenue though, you see that BioWare absolutely does not respond to criticism, they don't play the games that other developers do -- like what we've seen between EA and Blizzard in regards to MW3 and BF3. They also aren't swayed on what kind of games they make. They never have, and its worked well for them in past.
There will come a time when BioWare may be out of touch with its fanbase, but I don't think they've reached that point yet. You see it when people at the top just have absolutely no clue, like whats going on with Netflix right now. But BioWare isn't there. They know what they are making, and what may seem like confidence is coming off as arrogance. Theres a fine line there.
I think there are some valid points in that article and I think that Bioware is already on the path to the dark side in some respects. That "touchstone" comment still rankles me. I still think that calling others "dumb" because they might not choose to follow the same well-trod path was pretty damned arrogant. I mostly stopped listening to anything they had to say after that.
I understand your criticism but you have to look at it logically...
It is in fact dumb to completely ignore what has been proven to work, and that goes for just about anything.
Sure, during testing/experimentation you play around and "break the rules" to see if you get unexpected resuts or discover something entirely new, but at the end of the day if no other solutions present themselves you take "what works" and then run with it.
Hence, WoW being their touchstone.
Ok I admit, the SGR just hurt me. It hurt me *personally*, so yes I know I am biased against Bioware. And yes I play it. Heck I preordered that 150 Euro (thats 214 Dollars!) CE.
Still, I had this impression of their arrogance and not caring about any critique before the SGR thing. Like playable aliens. Like *some* sandbox elements: like if you don't have a house ok at least let us decorate the damn starship! Four or five 3d designers could make a few decorative things in a week! Would that be so hard? I have not admit them a single critique.
And their foumula has always remained the exact same since KOTOR. It reminds me of the old joke my Grandma used to tell me "yesterday we had sausages, the day before we had sausages, the day before THAT we had sausages, and suddenly today you don't like them anymore?" I mean, heck yes KOTOR was fun and great, but over all their games there was zilch development. Don't you at least find that... odd? Oh ok I correnct myself. In DA2 WAS a development: suddenly mobs dropped from the roof all around you in waves. And how succesful THAT was... Bioware knows how to tell stories. But in every single other area Bioware RPGs always have been mediocre, be it visuals, combat, crafting, anything. And they NEVER listen to any advise, harsh or kind. Heck, I am getting anger-pimples just THINKING about that company! >.<
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Actually they listened to player feedback and reviews TOO much considering all of the changes between Mass Effect 1 and 2 and Dragon Age 1 and 2.
They sure did fix a lot of the issues people had with the original games, but also caused quite a bit of backlash because they changed things TOO much for many people.
Also you have to understand that forums are without question the "vocal minority" when it comes to any game... anyone who takes the time to post comments or write reviews is not the majority.
The VAST majority of people just consume content and the only comments/reviews they ever make are to friends and family (gossip)
This is true on Youtube, CNN, all gaming sites (IGN etc.) and DEFINITELY MMO fan sites.
Superfans are always going to find something to complain about because there are/were so very, very, very dedicated/invested in the "original."
I will not harp on you saying "logcially" given your quote *cough*, but... no one expects Bioware to totally make everything different. That usually fails. And I NEVER agreed to the "its a wow clone" crowd. On the contrary, I regularly was flamed because I said, WOW made some innovations right. So yes, making a new MMO with a certain similar ideas and concepts is totally ok. We have agreement here.
What I will always critizise Bioware for is, how damn lacking ANY sort of innovation they have. I mean, not reinventing the wheel. But small things. Making combat a BIT more actiony, adding a BIT real crafting, adding a FEW real alien species. You know, SOMETHING that is a bit out of the 100% safe area. That is just sad. A new Star Wars MMO could and by all means SHOULD have been more than a co op story box. A GREAT co op story box no doubt, but thats just a bit small thinking, at least in my insignificant opinion.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Isn't the irony great?
I can say without doubt that no one does RPG's like Bioware does RPG's.
The whole morality choice/conversation thing is like.. their thing that people try to copy after the huge mega success of Mass Effect 1/2 and DA series.
That right there is the very definition of innovative, but it's not "new" anymore so it doesn't "feel" as innovative.
More actiony? They did! No auto-attack alone makes the game "more actiony" then WoW. That's "a bit" right?
Real crafting? One could argue that it is more realistic for a Hero to have his companions do the crafting/gathering for them and they just tinker when they aren't saving the galaxy right?
Real alien species? Like what? Yes, I will miss the player Rodians and Mon Calamari and Wookies etc. from SWG, but when every character needs voiced lines you can't do species that don't speak Basic that well haha even Bioware has limits in terms of money and time.
So it's either non-Basic speaking aliens that are "really" alien, or voice over. I vote voice over!
As usual you have some good points. and the highlighted was funny and made a good point, but I think its taken a little out of proportion here. They have the same formula, for the most part. They upped the combat experience in ME2, and DA2 (though I liked ME2 much more). They didn't create a massive change in playstyle from what we've seen before in SWTOR but they made it accessible and somewhat fun. (and lets face it, you didn't exactly like DCUOs combat style much anyways).
BioWare more than some other companies doesn't evolve by leaps and bounds every time, but that doesn't mean they don't create good games, nor is it that they aren't the best at what they do. I suppose when you get to the top tier and have a game listed as THE greatest game of our generation (an IGN reward) yeah, you can get a big head, but I think for the most part they try and stay humble. I feel more than anything, they mis-speak which leads to a lot of problems. I don't expect them to be perfect. We should all know now no game they make ever will be, so we shouldn't hold them to perfections standards either.
I can't speak to Bioware's innovation or lack thereof because I haven't played the game, and for all I know, it could be very innovative.
BUT
I see where you are coming from Elikal. Ignoring WoW is stupid. But this is not the same as replicating all of WoW's decisions. The correct approach (IMO) is to look at leader product X and see what could be improved upon it. Instead of just trying to "do what works," try to "take what works and make it better."
This is essentially what WoW did with EQ. It took EQ as a foundation and strove to improve upon what many perceived as shortcomings of the game (not enough soloing, nothing to do but kill MOBs, too grindy, etc.). And look what happened? Five years later and WoW has over 10 million subs.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
And what is Bioware doing to the WoW formula?
Exactly the same thing WoW did to the EQ formula.
You could have just said, "I hate that they didn't put same gender relationships at launch." It would have just saved you some keystrokes. It's pretty apparent you are basing every other criticism of the game on your unhappiness towards that slight by BioWare. Seems like you have a grudge against them rather than legit reasons to think this game won't succeed.
Just my personal opinion.
I agree. I think it's fair for the community to expect more from the next iteration. The "dumb" statement he made about those that don't follow what works is based on a idea his game will be successful. That is, success for the developer and not necessarily the consumer. I have the same problem with it.
I can see the logic (again!) in this. It does make sense as a business. As a GAMER and not EA stockholder however, I'D hoped for... more. I dunno. Some more neat things here and there. That's all I am saying. Not a revolutionary different niche MMO. But... I dunno *something* more than... this.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
While I am aware the event made me biased, my critique existed before that event, as you should know if you followed my posts here.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Have you played TOR yet?
Hold on he's got anger pimples... he can't be reasoned with in this state.
You know I can not answer this. Or in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar: ITS A TRAP! ^^
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You can say whether or not you are in the beta and that a beta exists.
So you can say whether or not you have played the game. Also could have played at a gaming event some where.
I just wonder how you KNOW it's not something "more" if you haven't played it?
If you have played it and feel that way, then I respect your opinion and look forward to hearing the details when the NDA drops