I haven't read all the posts (and no, you can't force me to =P ) so I don't know if it was brought up yet; But Guild Wars 2 tries a cooperative approach were you don't compete for loot directly and due to non-trinity-mechanics every soul wielding a weapon is welcome as 'help'...
Also the most cooperative and non-judging, non-voicechat experience I had -> and consecutively the most fun were the Tier 1-3 Warhammer Online raids. People would assist each other because otherwise everyone was bound to die.
So well, I'd blame it on moden solo-esque mechanics... If cooperative play was required to achieve anything and anonymity was taken away (1 character per server anyone, no namechanges) people would be insta-nice. I promise *g*
Bob comes into the RESTURANT and starts being a dick to all the other customers. What do you do?:
A: Allow Bob to stay because he is a paying customer and tell the customers to just /ignore him.
B: Warn Bob not to be a dick to the other customers but don't do anything.
C: Tell all the customers that are not being dicks that they have to put with Bob because he is a paying customer
Throw Bob out and ban him from sitting at a particular booth
E: Throw Bob out and tell he can never come back to the resturant
F: Allow Bob to be a dick, try to scam the other customers, and tell the customers that the Resturant is a sandbox environment and they should grow a thicker skin.
(...)
I love this post. Exactly describes how things SHOULD be but aren't because options non-E are a lot less costly and well in tune with the general "we want your money, not your sympathy, ****head"
I don't get why people blame VOIPs for the anti-social behaviour in today's MMOs.
VOIPs are just tools for communication - if the guys in your guilds are such assholes that you can't even stand hearing them talk, why do you play with them in the first place?
if you just dislike hearing voices in general, just mute the VOIP until you need it, or have the host create different channels,for example: one for PvP, one for raiding or whatever, and one for general BS.
most VOIPs let you customize the chat rooms, providing multiple options for good coordination given that the people using it are coordinated and mature people.
and that's what it all boils down to imo: play with like-minded people, and you won't have to deal with the assholes. It's not that hard: usually it doesn't take too long to notice whether the guild is full of screaming kids and e-peen dickheads with personality disorders, or just regular gamers trying to coordinate their efforts while playing a Massive Multiplayer game.
there may be more idiots in today's MMOs communities, but they will be as much idiots on chat as on VOIP. and VOIP do make a lot of things more effective, like PvPing for example. good luck to any team that tries to compete in PvP without VOIP.
it sounds like a lot of people have had bad experiences with VOIPs and I understand that, but blaming VOIPs for the state of the bad communities is like saying "global chat ruins games" based on some experiences you had on the Barrens chat.
this is correct. Excellent post.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
In my opinion, socializing - is partly subjective. If a person feels that he is enough socialized (and he doesn’t break any laws) - it means that he is enough socialized
Obviously, developers (and players too) shouldn’t force somebody to do something in some way. The task is to create environment (or basic parts and laws of the environment) where every person will find a place for existence.
It is an idea and it more easily to say than to do. But I think that only this way is right. In real world most of us dream about the same.
In my opinion, socializing - is partly subjective. If a person feels that he is enough socialized (and he doesn’t break any laws) - it means that he is enough socialized
Obviously, developers (and players too) shouldn’t force somebody to do something in some way. The task is to create environment (or basic parts and laws of the environment) where every person will find a place for existence.
It is an idea and it more easily to say than to do. But I think that only this way is right. In real world most of us dream about the same.
That is an alternate reality, not a game. A game has objectives, controls, and measures of success. You are confusing alternate realities with games.
In my opinion, socializing - is partly subjective. If a person feels that he is enough socialized (and he doesn’t break any laws) - it means that he is enough socialized
Obviously, developers (and players too) shouldn’t force somebody to do something in some way. The task is to create environment (or basic parts and laws of the environment) where every person will find a place for existence.
It is an idea and it more easily to say than to do. But I think that only this way is right. In real world most of us dream about the same.
That is an alternate reality, not a game. A game has objectives, controls, and measures of success. You are confusing alternate realities with games.
Maybe you are right. Of course, MMO is not an alternative reality yet… But I think that it is not simply a game. It is something more. It seems to me that even three card-players forms a little society… MMO has much greater population. And where there is a population - there is a society. Where there is a society - there is a reality: alternative or not, small or big, wrong or right… It doesn’t matter.
As group and raid sizes drop. As crafting get more and more useless. As AH sales get less and less personal. As the rise of the soloing mmo comes. The community goes further in to the gutter. So imo the reason for the raise of the a-hole mmo is that they just don't need to be nice to you for any reason. Till MMO go more group heavy, make crafting better then loot, add player vendors, or some other ideas communities will continue to suck.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
As group and raid sizes drop. As crafting get more and more useless. As AH sales get less and less personal. As the rise of the soloing mmo comes. The community goes further in to the gutter. So imo the reason for the raise of the a-hole mmo is that they just don't need to be nice to you for any reason. Till MMO go more group heavy, make crafting better then loot, add player vendors, or some other ideas communities will continue to suck.
Except that's not the case. MMO communities are just a reflection of the larger society in general. People became assholes in real life, stayed that way in MMOs. Until society improves, MMOs never will.
As group and raid sizes drop. As crafting get more and more useless. As AH sales get less and less personal. As the rise of the soloing mmo comes. The community goes further in to the gutter. So imo the reason for the raise of the a-hole mmo is that they just don't need to be nice to you for any reason. Till MMO go more group heavy, make crafting better then loot, add player vendors, or some other ideas communities will continue to suck.
"You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can never make all the people happy all the time."
It has little to do with group and raids or crafting. It has to do with the raw population of people playing MMOs and some basic math that I can sum up with this:
"As the population of a set of people grows, within that set of people, the divergence of ideology, motivations, and virtures will diverge. The greater the divergence of behaviors in a set of people, or if you would, the less they have in common, they harder it is for them to get along."
It's not IF, or even WHEN, it is HOW MANY that is the key.
The problem is that when MMOs were just D&D nerds back in the Merdian days and early EQ, the community was small and a narrow demographic. So everyone had a shared interest, there was 1 clique, players.
As MMOs hit mainstream, it is back to highschool in many ways. Group A, Group B, Group C type players. Jocks and Nerds if you would. Sharding helped keep the PvP and PvE'er out of each other's hair but, when the mainstream hit, those controls fell apart since the problem reinvents itself within the shard. It's is analogous to when your favorite hole in the wall coffee shop gets mainstream attention and every asshole and trendsetting wannabe shows up and just tramples "the vibe" that made it awesome in the first place.
The mentality that arose then is "This is our (the clique) MMO" and the social fabric rotted from within. This is why national traditions (holidays, customs, etc.) are vital in that they are the "Tie that Binds" a nation together. Same goes for MMOs. The problem is, MMO developers got greedy in the sense they wanted to focus on volume of players, rather then quality. They pandered to the lowest common denominator that doesn't statisfy any particular clique. They get crushed under the weight of their own success, they never can say, "We have enough players now, we're going invite only" like a lot of MUDs did in the late 80s early 90s (and most of the invite only ones are alive and well today.)
"The only universal equality in a world with limited resources that can be achieved is poverty", that quote can also be applied to creative poverty, or as most of us call it "pandering to the lowest common denominator".
You'll note that few complain about anti-social attitudes in well managed guilds. Because that mechanism allows at least the guild to cultivate and manager their guild's population. Guild Wars I believe would be the one MMO with the least amount of people complaining about anti-social behavior since guilds can just kick the douche out and not have to deal with him anymore.
As group and raid sizes drop. As crafting get more and more useless. As AH sales get less and less personal. As the rise of the soloing mmo comes. The community goes further in to the gutter. So imo the reason for the raise of the a-hole mmo is that they just don't need to be nice to you for any reason. Till MMO go more group heavy, make crafting better then loot, add player vendors, or some other ideas communities will continue to suck.
Except that's not the case. MMO communities are just a reflection of the larger society in general. People became assholes in real life, stayed that way in MMOs. Until society improves, MMOs never will.
Exactly. MMO's have become more of a cross section of the general population (Lord help us all...) than they were in the past. Given that all too many of the general population, are people one would never wish contact with... Nature takes its course.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Since the MMORPG scene has become accessable to more and younger people the community has become worse and worse. My low point was on AoC launch day and for about the next month when you couldn't get any help due to the spamming of Chuck Norris jokes and "WoW was the first MMO" over and over. Ever since then I just try to find a clan with some decent people and play with some longtime friends otherwise it feels like I'm just banging my head against a brickwall!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
You know, I think the main reason gamers like myself, and perhaps the OP, have a problem with the current social atmosphere in MMOs is because we're old. Most gamers these days are much younger than myself (31) and they have completely different personalities, desires, and methods. I won't go through the trouble of describing the differences, but they're there. There just doesn't seem to be any room in games anymore for us old timers. :P
You know, I think the main reason gamers like myself, and perhaps the OP, have a problem with the current social atmosphere in MMOs is because we're old. Most gamers these days are much younger than myself (31) and they have completely different personalities, desires, and methods. I won't go through the trouble of describing the differences, but they're there. There just doesn't seem to be any room in games anymore for us old timers. :P
My suggestion is to stick to single-player games.
I like agricola1's implied suggestion much better. Letting a bunch of kids drive me out of MMOs after I've been playing ten years doesn't appeal. Aside from slapping them silly, maybe us oldsters also need to demand that companies endure some short term profit loss for long term gain by banning imbeciles of all ages as soon as they rear their ugly little heads. Or give them one or two chances each, but that's it, after that, they're gone. Also, not putting teabag and spit emotes in games might help a little.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
You know, I think the main reason gamers like myself, and perhaps the OP, have a problem with the current social atmosphere in MMOs is because we're old. Most gamers these days are much younger than myself (31) and they have completely different personalities, desires, and methods. I won't go through the trouble of describing the differences, but they're there. There just doesn't seem to be any room in games anymore for us old timers. :P
My suggestion is to stick to single-player games.
I'm in a guild right now of thirty-somethings, and honestly, some of them still act like children and make terrible Chuck Norris jokes. I don't think age equals maturity in some cases, it's just a matter of personality and wit. But I can understand when you're a smart and you're surrounded by idiots, you could feel lonely. I think that's when people get frustrated. Don't be too picky and you're sure to find like-minded people. I'm more of a solo-player myself so I'm not quick on joining any clique or making buddies, but I always meet someone I can tag along with. If you feel obliged on making friends in an MMO then maybe you'll want to tone it down or go outside.
>>But I can understand when you're a smart and you're surrounded by idiots, you could feel lonely.<<
True. It is lonely here, in waaay-too-smart-for-your-own-good world.
>>Don't be too picky<<
But how?! How not to be picky?! Just look around!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me, get him up against the wall. That one is a redneck! And that one's a loon! Who let all of this riff-raff into the room? There's one speaking "leet"! And another is a dolt! If I had my way, I'd have all of you shot!
You know, I think the main reason gamers like myself, and perhaps the OP, have a problem with the current social atmosphere in MMOs is because we're old. Most gamers these days are much younger than myself (31) and they have completely different personalities, desires, and methods. I won't go through the trouble of describing the differences, but they're there. There just doesn't seem to be any room in games anymore for us old timers. :P
My suggestion is to stick to single-player games.
You and I are in the same age group that's not so significant. I can assue you we still have different personalities, desires, and methods.
Older and younger folks can be anti-social, some people may grow up not knowing how to talk to people or even pick up a pen and paper to write to someone.
Though, sitting behind a screen makes it that much easier for some cats, just the way Ventrillo, TeamSpeak, Mumble, Skype, or VOIP has made it easier for people to socialize in game. The people CRYING about it like the EQ days were use to just folks chatting in CHAT in game. Now you got both and people assume there is no socializing in MMO's anymore.
As group and raid sizes drop. As crafting get more and more useless. As AH sales get less and less personal. As the rise of the soloing mmo comes. The community goes further in to the gutter. So imo the reason for the raise of the a-hole mmo is that they just don't need to be nice to you for any reason. Till MMO go more group heavy, make crafting better then loot, add player vendors, or some other ideas communities will continue to suck.
Except that's not the case. MMO communities are just a reflection of the larger society in general. People became assholes in real life, stayed that way in MMOs. Until society improves, MMOs never will.
So society changed in last 10 years to far worse?
I don't agree with you.
Mmorpg's are made more conveniant and accesible to more people. This is their design atm. It is ok ofc.
If you make more restrictive mmorpg, when your actions will have consequences. Like 1 character per server + no AH + making game world made so players cooperate (player made economy) then less people will act like assholes because acting like that won't be profitable and even more - it will be punished by server's community.
It was already done and it worked in some games.
Of course there will be assholes always, this is unavoidable. Just it is proven psychological fact is if you allow people to act like assholes without consequences and especially when they are anonymous - then many WILL act like that.
If acting like assholes will be bad for people, then many that would act like assholes won't act like that because they'll lose on this behaviour.
This is basic mechanism that keep people in check in groups and society generally.
There are many reasons why people act bad, but well to be honest most of time it is NOT important why they act like that.
If you lose business oportunities , if people won't cooperate with you, if someone will beat the crap out of you, etc - most people would not act like an asshole even if they would want to.
This is why on internet many people write just awful stuff, curse on other people, flame other people, express totally unacceptable opinions (like threats, calling other people murderers, nazis. express racist opinions,etc) - but most of those people would not DARE to act like that in real life.
So in modern mmorpg's = you can act bad, like really bad. Nothing will happen. People group(or can group) using random lfg tool so player's reputation does not matter. People buy from AH so they cannot be banned from player's shops or refused to sell/buy "in person". They are self sufficiant, so they can act bad - then they do act bad.
Make people LOSE if they act like ass, then most of them will stop act like that. It is really simple.
That is why I am against things like AH, LFG queue tool with instant teleport, lack of player economy and meaningful crafting, everything soloized
Don't get me wrong - there were plenty of bad people in 'old' mmorpg's as well. Just nowhere as much as atm. People were also more cooperative - because it was profitable to be cooperative.
>>But I can understand when you're a smart and you're surrounded by idiots, you could feel lonely.<<
True. It is lonely here, in waaay-too-smart-for-your-own-good world.
>>Don't be too picky<<
But how?! How not to be picky?! Just look around!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me, get him up against the wall. That one is a redneck! And that one's a loon! Who let all of this riff-raff into the room? There's one speaking "leet"! And another is a dolt! If I had my way, I'd have all of you shot!
I think a better way of describing persons like you, Grahor, is a "prude" or "one who does not suffer fools gladly." Either that, or you're trying to be humouristic. That's all fine and dandy, but often times they're the ones who end up complaining about such things. I don't share anything with a lot of folks, certainly not in an MMO environment, but I try not to be pompous about it.
You know, I think the main reason gamers like myself, and perhaps the OP, have a problem with the current social atmosphere in MMOs is because we're old. Most gamers these days are much younger than myself (31) and they have completely different personalities, desires, and methods. I won't go through the trouble of describing the differences, but they're there. There just doesn't seem to be any room in games anymore for us old timers. :P
My suggestion is to stick to single-player games.
You can't dump all the blame on younger guys. I've met enough d-bags from different ages.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
------------------------ Everyone on this site: 1: MMORPGs are DOOMED, and I have the answers to save them! 2: THIS game's gonna kill WoW! 3: I wish things would go back to the Golden Age of MMORPGs, which only existed in my mind...
As group and raid sizes drop. As crafting get more and more useless. As AH sales get less and less personal. As the rise of the soloing mmo comes. The community goes further in to the gutter. So imo the reason for the raise of the a-hole mmo is that they just don't need to be nice to you for any reason. Till MMO go more group heavy, make crafting better then loot, add player vendors, or some other ideas communities will continue to suck.
Except that's not the case. MMO communities are just a reflection of the larger society in general. People became assholes in real life, stayed that way in MMOs. Until society improves, MMOs never will.
So society changed in last 10 years to far worse? I don't agree with you. Mmorpg's are made more conveniant and accesible to more people. This is their design atm. It is ok ofc. If you make more restrictive mmorpg, when your actions will have consequences. Like 1 character per server + no AH + making game world made so players cooperate (player made economy) then less people will act like assholes because acting like that won't be profitable and even more - it will be punished by server's community. It was already done and it worked in some games. Of course there will be assholes always, this is unavoidable. Just it is proven psychological fact is if you allow people to act like assholes without consequences and especially when they are anonymous - then many WILL act like that. If acting like assholes will be bad for people, then many that would act like assholes won't act like that because they'll lose on this behaviour. This is basic mechanism that keep people in check in groups and society generally. There are many reasons why people act bad, but well to be honest most of time it is NOT important why they act like that. If you lose business oportunities , if people won't cooperate with you, if someone will beat the crap out of you, etc - most people would not act like an asshole even if they would want to. This is why on internet many people write just awful stuff, curse on other people, flame other people, express totally unacceptable opinions (like threats, calling other people murderers, nazis. express racist opinions,etc) - but most of those people would not DARE to act like that in real life. So in modern mmorpg's = you can act bad, like really bad. Nothing will happen. People group(or can group) using random lfg tool so player's reputation does not matter. People buy from AH so they cannot be banned from player's shops or refused to sell/buy "in person". They are self sufficiant, so they can act bad - then they do act bad. Make people LOSE if they act like ass, then most of them will stop act like that. It is really simple. That is why I am against things like AH, LFG queue tool with instant teleport, lack of player economy and meaningful crafting, everything soloized Don't get me wrong - there were plenty of bad people in 'old' mmorpg's as well. Just nowhere as much as atm. People were also more cooperative - because it was profitable to be cooperative.
It's nice to have someone agree with my theory of game communities. :)
Also as "proof" I point to WOW. Vanilla WOW's community without all the auto grouping and instance teleporting features was WAY better then WOLK's was.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
You know, I think the main reason gamers like myself, and perhaps the OP, have a problem with the current social atmosphere in MMOs is because we're old. Most gamers these days are much younger than myself (31) and they have completely different personalities, desires, and methods. I won't go through the trouble of describing the differences, but they're there. There just doesn't seem to be any room in games anymore for us old timers. :P
My suggestion is to stick to single-player games.
YEah i am pretty sure it has vary little to do with what age group you are apart of since i am pretty sure you are not that much older then i am. I have seen just as many younger gamer/mmoers shy away from going into a vent or ts out of just feeling it breaks their privacy. Now the suggestion is overall redunent as well as stupid, since the fact of the matter is when we chose to play a mmo we desired to have the feeling of being apart of a huge world, and we are the thing is we do not have to talk/intereact/socialize with you or others to be apart of that world. The genre is called massive multi-player online games, not massive multi-player socializing games, to be a mmo all you need are enouph players competeing/co-uping/playing with each other to be a mmo. The idea that since we or others have to talk, group, or otherwise deal with you more then we determine is actually against the idea of the game. You play the game to enjoy your time with many people you like playing with as well as feel like you are around massive numbers of players, both of which have been pretty well done yet you are still given the right to say who you interact with. Those who have problems with people not wanting to talk with them either in game or on ts/vent should look at themselves for why, since i bet those that refuse to talk with them and interact with them have many they do talk as well as iinteract with ingame or on ts/vent. Aso if you want to have it that everyone must be talkative, want to group then i would go to a game with forced grouping from the onset f the game over a mmo like they are now.
Mmorpg's are made more conveniant and accesible to more people. This is their design atm. It is ok ofc.
The problem is, if you make them more restrictive, you lose your audience and you go out of business. That's been the case with all MMOs that have had a restrictive focus. Even games that have focused on PvP have fallen on hard times. The only way to make a financially successful MMO is to be as wide and accepting as possible, allowing the most financially viable segments, the soloers and PvErs, to play because that's where the money is.
Unfortunately, the more open your game is, the more anti-social asshats are going to show up. Restrict play and your game shuts down or goes F2P. Leave the game unrestricted and open and you invite people that everyone hates.
Comments
To OP, want socialize? Then please stop playing and go to socialize in real world in eye to eye contact.
I haven't read all the posts (and no, you can't force me to =P ) so I don't know if it was brought up yet; But Guild Wars 2 tries a cooperative approach were you don't compete for loot directly and due to non-trinity-mechanics every soul wielding a weapon is welcome as 'help'...
Also the most cooperative and non-judging, non-voicechat experience I had -> and consecutively the most fun were the Tier 1-3 Warhammer Online raids. People would assist each other because otherwise everyone was bound to die.
So well, I'd blame it on moden solo-esque mechanics... If cooperative play was required to achieve anything and anonymity was taken away (1 character per server anyone, no namechanges) people would be insta-nice. I promise *g*
M
this is correct. Excellent post.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
In my opinion, socializing - is partly subjective. If a person feels that he is enough socialized (and he doesn’t break any laws) - it means that he is enough socialized
Obviously, developers (and players too) shouldn’t force somebody to do something in some way. The task is to create environment (or basic parts and laws of the environment) where every person will find a place for existence.
It is an idea and it more easily to say than to do. But I think that only this way is right. In real world most of us dream about the same.
That is an alternate reality, not a game. A game has objectives, controls, and measures of success. You are confusing alternate realities with games.
Maybe you are right. Of course, MMO is not an alternative reality yet… But I think that it is not simply a game. It is something more. It seems to me that even three card-players forms a little society…
But it’s only my opinion
As group and raid sizes drop. As crafting get more and more useless. As AH sales get less and less personal. As the rise of the soloing mmo comes. The community goes further in to the gutter. So imo the reason for the raise of the a-hole mmo is that they just don't need to be nice to you for any reason. Till MMO go more group heavy, make crafting better then loot, add player vendors, or some other ideas communities will continue to suck.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Except that's not the case. MMO communities are just a reflection of the larger society in general. People became assholes in real life, stayed that way in MMOs. Until society improves, MMOs never will.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
"You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can never make all the people happy all the time."
It has little to do with group and raids or crafting. It has to do with the raw population of people playing MMOs and some basic math that I can sum up with this:
"As the population of a set of people grows, within that set of people, the divergence of ideology, motivations, and virtures will diverge. The greater the divergence of behaviors in a set of people, or if you would, the less they have in common, they harder it is for them to get along."
It's not IF, or even WHEN, it is HOW MANY that is the key.
The problem is that when MMOs were just D&D nerds back in the Merdian days and early EQ, the community was small and a narrow demographic. So everyone had a shared interest, there was 1 clique, players.
As MMOs hit mainstream, it is back to highschool in many ways. Group A, Group B, Group C type players. Jocks and Nerds if you would. Sharding helped keep the PvP and PvE'er out of each other's hair but, when the mainstream hit, those controls fell apart since the problem reinvents itself within the shard. It's is analogous to when your favorite hole in the wall coffee shop gets mainstream attention and every asshole and trendsetting wannabe shows up and just tramples "the vibe" that made it awesome in the first place.
The mentality that arose then is "This is our (the clique) MMO" and the social fabric rotted from within. This is why national traditions (holidays, customs, etc.) are vital in that they are the "Tie that Binds" a nation together. Same goes for MMOs. The problem is, MMO developers got greedy in the sense they wanted to focus on volume of players, rather then quality. They pandered to the lowest common denominator that doesn't statisfy any particular clique. They get crushed under the weight of their own success, they never can say, "We have enough players now, we're going invite only" like a lot of MUDs did in the late 80s early 90s (and most of the invite only ones are alive and well today.)
"The only universal equality in a world with limited resources that can be achieved is poverty", that quote can also be applied to creative poverty, or as most of us call it "pandering to the lowest common denominator".
You'll note that few complain about anti-social attitudes in well managed guilds. Because that mechanism allows at least the guild to cultivate and manager their guild's population. Guild Wars I believe would be the one MMO with the least amount of people complaining about anti-social behavior since guilds can just kick the douche out and not have to deal with him anymore.
Exactly. MMO's have become more of a cross section of the general population (Lord help us all...) than they were in the past. Given that all too many of the general population, are people one would never wish contact with... Nature takes its course.
So, OP... is it worth it still?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Just try to remember this,
Since the MMORPG scene has become accessable to more and younger people the community has become worse and worse. My low point was on AoC launch day and for about the next month when you couldn't get any help due to the spamming of Chuck Norris jokes and "WoW was the first MMO" over and over. Ever since then I just try to find a clan with some decent people and play with some longtime friends otherwise it feels like I'm just banging my head against a brickwall!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
You know, I think the main reason gamers like myself, and perhaps the OP, have a problem with the current social atmosphere in MMOs is because we're old. Most gamers these days are much younger than myself (31) and they have completely different personalities, desires, and methods. I won't go through the trouble of describing the differences, but they're there. There just doesn't seem to be any room in games anymore for us old timers. :P
My suggestion is to stick to single-player games.
I like agricola1's implied suggestion much better. Letting a bunch of kids drive me out of MMOs after I've been playing ten years doesn't appeal. Aside from slapping them silly, maybe us oldsters also need to demand that companies endure some short term profit loss for long term gain by banning imbeciles of all ages as soon as they rear their ugly little heads. Or give them one or two chances each, but that's it, after that, they're gone. Also, not putting teabag and spit emotes in games might help a little.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I'm in a guild right now of thirty-somethings, and honestly, some of them still act like children and make terrible Chuck Norris jokes. I don't think age equals maturity in some cases, it's just a matter of personality and wit. But I can understand when you're a smart and you're surrounded by idiots, you could feel lonely. I think that's when people get frustrated. Don't be too picky and you're sure to find like-minded people. I'm more of a solo-player myself so I'm not quick on joining any clique or making buddies, but I always meet someone I can tag along with. If you feel obliged on making friends in an MMO then maybe you'll want to tone it down or go outside.
>>But I can understand when you're a smart and you're surrounded by idiots, you could feel lonely.<<
True. It is lonely here, in waaay-too-smart-for-your-own-good world.
>>Don't be too picky<<
But how?! How not to be picky?! Just look around!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me, get him up against the wall. That one is a redneck! And that one's a loon! Who let all of this riff-raff into the room? There's one speaking "leet"! And another is a dolt! If I had my way, I'd have all of you shot!
You and I are in the same age group that's not so significant. I can assue you we still have different personalities, desires, and methods.
Older and younger folks can be anti-social, some people may grow up not knowing how to talk to people or even pick up a pen and paper to write to someone.
Though, sitting behind a screen makes it that much easier for some cats, just the way Ventrillo, TeamSpeak, Mumble, Skype, or VOIP has made it easier for people to socialize in game. The people CRYING about it like the EQ days were use to just folks chatting in CHAT in game. Now you got both and people assume there is no socializing in MMO's anymore.
So society changed in last 10 years to far worse?
I don't agree with you.
Mmorpg's are made more conveniant and accesible to more people. This is their design atm. It is ok ofc.
If you make more restrictive mmorpg, when your actions will have consequences. Like 1 character per server + no AH + making game world made so players cooperate (player made economy) then less people will act like assholes because acting like that won't be profitable and even more - it will be punished by server's community.
It was already done and it worked in some games.
Of course there will be assholes always, this is unavoidable. Just it is proven psychological fact is if you allow people to act like assholes without consequences and especially when they are anonymous - then many WILL act like that.
If acting like assholes will be bad for people, then many that would act like assholes won't act like that because they'll lose on this behaviour.
This is basic mechanism that keep people in check in groups and society generally.
There are many reasons why people act bad, but well to be honest most of time it is NOT important why they act like that.
If you lose business oportunities , if people won't cooperate with you, if someone will beat the crap out of you, etc - most people would not act like an asshole even if they would want to.
This is why on internet many people write just awful stuff, curse on other people, flame other people, express totally unacceptable opinions (like threats, calling other people murderers, nazis. express racist opinions,etc) - but most of those people would not DARE to act like that in real life.
So in modern mmorpg's = you can act bad, like really bad. Nothing will happen. People group(or can group) using random lfg tool so player's reputation does not matter. People buy from AH so they cannot be banned from player's shops or refused to sell/buy "in person". They are self sufficiant, so they can act bad - then they do act bad.
Make people LOSE if they act like ass, then most of them will stop act like that. It is really simple.
That is why I am against things like AH, LFG queue tool with instant teleport, lack of player economy and meaningful crafting, everything soloized
Don't get me wrong - there were plenty of bad people in 'old' mmorpg's as well. Just nowhere as much as atm. People were also more cooperative - because it was profitable to be cooperative.
I think a better way of describing persons like you, Grahor, is a "prude" or "one who does not suffer fools gladly." Either that, or you're trying to be humouristic. That's all fine and dandy, but often times they're the ones who end up complaining about such things. I don't share anything with a lot of folks, certainly not in an MMO environment, but I try not to be pompous about it.
You can't dump all the blame on younger guys. I've met enough d-bags from different ages.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Sick of anti-social attitude? Then go outside.
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Everyone on this site:
1: MMORPGs are DOOMED, and I have the answers to save them!
2: THIS game's gonna kill WoW!
3: I wish things would go back to the Golden Age of MMORPGs, which only existed in my mind...
Also as "proof" I point to WOW. Vanilla WOW's community without all the auto grouping and instance teleporting features was WAY better then WOLK's was.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
YEah i am pretty sure it has vary little to do with what age group you are apart of since i am pretty sure you are not that much older then i am. I have seen just as many younger gamer/mmoers shy away from going into a vent or ts out of just feeling it breaks their privacy. Now the suggestion is overall redunent as well as stupid, since the fact of the matter is when we chose to play a mmo we desired to have the feeling of being apart of a huge world, and we are the thing is we do not have to talk/intereact/socialize with you or others to be apart of that world. The genre is called massive multi-player online games, not massive multi-player socializing games, to be a mmo all you need are enouph players competeing/co-uping/playing with each other to be a mmo. The idea that since we or others have to talk, group, or otherwise deal with you more then we determine is actually against the idea of the game. You play the game to enjoy your time with many people you like playing with as well as feel like you are around massive numbers of players, both of which have been pretty well done yet you are still given the right to say who you interact with. Those who have problems with people not wanting to talk with them either in game or on ts/vent should look at themselves for why, since i bet those that refuse to talk with them and interact with them have many they do talk as well as iinteract with ingame or on ts/vent. Aso if you want to have it that everyone must be talkative, want to group then i would go to a game with forced grouping from the onset f the game over a mmo like they are now.
The problem is, if you make them more restrictive, you lose your audience and you go out of business. That's been the case with all MMOs that have had a restrictive focus. Even games that have focused on PvP have fallen on hard times. The only way to make a financially successful MMO is to be as wide and accepting as possible, allowing the most financially viable segments, the soloers and PvErs, to play because that's where the money is.
Unfortunately, the more open your game is, the more anti-social asshats are going to show up. Restrict play and your game shuts down or goes F2P. Leave the game unrestricted and open and you invite people that everyone hates.
You really can't win.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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