"MMOs go too quick these days"—Strange standards held by gamers.

Xenharmonic

Sometimes, on forums and such, I read things like "It's too easy to get 85 in WoW" or "MMOs level too fast these days"

What? Level too fast relative to what? 15 days SOLID playtime until the level cap isn't enough for you, and that's before you even go raiding for gear?

I hear SWTOR is going to take around 200 hours to hit the level cap. Huge thumbs down for me. In my opinion this is a ridiculous amount of time to spend reaching the level cap, when in modern MMOs the game "starts at the cap" or whatever.

Have the mmorpg community lost touch with reality? Or am I just reading a few weird minority opinions, and the public thinks that 10+ solid days played to reach the level cap in an MMO focused on endgame is ridiculous...?

I added a poll down the bottom. Assume the game is like World of Warcraft (focused on endgame both PvP and PvE wise), and it takes 10+ days of solid leveling to hit the cap.

Edit: To clarify, im not talking about the "ultimate" mmo where all levels are fun. Im talking about end-game focused games like WoW where the mid-levels are mind numbingly boring and repetitive. My experience is that quite a few MMOs today (I'd love you to provide good modern examples where im wrong) fit these criteria.

Guild wars 2 designer Isaiah Cartwright puts it nicely:

"Anyone can increase the length of an experience bar and call it content, but our world is filled with an almost endless stream of things to do. We expect content—not long, grindy progression—to be the deciding factor that keeps people playing our game "

Thanks for your votes and responses!

marinrider

Yeah, 15 days is too short, and the game shouldn't start at the cap.  The game should be fun and worth playing from start to finish. Thats the things that SWTOR and GW2 are trying to achieve with personal storys and things like that.  If you want to be max level faster then just go play a private server because I dont buy games just to skip all the stuff in the beginning.

And what makes you think these games are completly focused on end game?  We dont know very much about the middle yet from what I understand.  I think you've lost touch with what games are about, not the community has lost touch with reality.  Have fun playing a game from start to finish, worry about how long it takes, or what happens at the end when you get there.

 

Dewm

...200hrs to reach cap?

 

first point, Skyrim. promises over 300hrs of gameplay plus no monthley fee.

second point, give that a year of the cry babies saying its to hard and it will go down to around 12hrs to cap.

3rd point...back in the day (i'm not that old) I played an MMO to live in a world, and that should offer more then a month of off and on gameplay.

4th point....uhmm.....yeah!

ZeroByteDNA

Originally posted by Xenharmonic

Sometimes, on forums and such, I read things like "It's too easy to get 85 in WoW" or "MMOs level too fast these days"

What? Level too fast relative to what? 15 days SOLID playtime until the level cap isn't enough for you, and that's before you even go raiding for gear?

I hear SWTOR is going to take around 200 hours to hit the level cap. Huge thumbs down for me. In my opinion this is a ridiculous amount of time to spend reaching the level cap, when in modern MMOs the game "starts at the cap" or whatever.

Have the mmorpg community lost touch with reality? Or am I just reading a few weird minority opinions, and the public is well aware that 10+ solid days played to reach the level cap in an MMO focused on endgame is ridiculous.

Journey.  MMORPGs used to be about the Journey.

PnP RPGs do not have an endgame.  Usually if your character reached a certain point, the end of the game, you retired that character and made a new one.  The games were about the Journey.

MMORPGs used to be about the Journey.  Even Vanilla WoW knew that.  It changed - getting faster with BC, faster with LK, and ridiculously fast with Cata.  Of course, some of that was because of altitis - some people did not want to go through the same journey again and again and again with each alt.  Some of it was because of friends joining the game late, it would take too long for them to be able to play together (some games handled this differently, allowing lower players to be raised in level or allowing the higher level player to lower themselves).

For some people, endgame is a bad thing.  Endgame turned MMORPGs into game lobbies.  The journey no longer mattered.  It was just a case of getting to the level cap as fast as possible so you could queue for game - as if you were playing a FPS or RTS game rather than a MMORPG.

Even 200 hours is only 8 days played.  For a person playing 1-3 hours, they're likely to be there somewhere near three months.

For me, that would still be too fast.  No doubt it is a Hell of a lot better to me compared to how long most of the leveling speeds in games are...blink and you're done.

You're not in the minority...unfortunately.  No, you're in the majority.  And that is the reason that so many of us rant and rave about it...because we're the minority, and game developers have listened to the majority - the new majority - those that have changed a genre we loved.

farfanugon

 Ive played games for months , and not caped a single toon in them.

 some games are more fun to play then to lvl , to me thats when you know you are playing a great game . WoW always kinda sucked to me the 16 days it took me to cap my first toon were the only 16 days i found the game at all fun.

 why worry about the time it took to get there , just worry about was it worth the time it took to get there.

marinrider

Originally posted by Dewm

...200hrs to reach cap?

 

first point, Skyrim. promises over 300hrs of gameplay plus no monthley fee.

second point, give that a year of the cry babies saying its to hard and it will go down to around 12hrs to cap.

3rd point...back in the day (i'm not that old) I played an MMO to live in a world, and that should offer more then a month of off and on gameplay.

4th point....uhmm.....yeah!

Relating to your first and second points, I've spent over 1000 hours playing GW, 2000+ hours playing WoW, and hundreds of hours playing other MMO's.  Taking me 200+ hours to reach level cap is nothing when you look at the total time you might spend in the game.  

The problem is developers are not making that middle part fun.  They make it boring, and repetitive (kinda sounds like WoW endgame) and so people rush through it.  The OP obviously came into the genre with a game like WoW or other similar newer MMO to not understand that the adventure can be just as much fun as the destination.

Goll25

Funny I was thinking of this at work. I don't think any MMO right now has the right idea when it comes to leveling. I think a game would be amazing if it took a good month of pretty solid daily playing to reach level cap BUT make it more than just leveling to gain numbers, but some sort of fun progression to go along with it, with a great story behind it. Sort of similar to an asain MMO (the time spent leveling) but westernize it with quest, but yet again find a way to make that funner, basically a game that can be considered fun at any level by the masses. This doesn't seem to be the case, every game its like hitting cap is a joke then the rest is the actual game. I miss older games where you got extremely excited per level. However now most games offer some sort of double exp on top of nerfed rates with no content till the cap! Leveling should be one of the funnest parts of the game because that is the whole build up to the climax of the game!

Arawnite

Once upon a time, MMORPG's required skill...

Dewm

Originally posted by marinrider

Originally posted by Dewm

...200hrs to reach cap?

 

first point, Skyrim. promises over 300hrs of gameplay plus no monthley fee.

second point, give that a year of the cry babies saying its to hard and it will go down to around 12hrs to cap.

3rd point...back in the day (i'm not that old) I played an MMO to live in a world, and that should offer more then a month of off and on gameplay.

4th point....uhmm.....yeah!

Relating to your first and second points, I've spent over 1000 hours playing GW, 2000+ hours playing WoW, and hundreds of hours playing other MMO's.  Taking me 200+ hours to reach level cap is nothing when you look at the total time you might spend in the game.  

The problem is developers are not making that middle part fun.  They make it boring, and repetitive (kinda sounds like WoW endgame) and so people rush through it.  The OP obviously came into the genre with a game like WoW or other similar newer MMO to not understand that the adventure can be just as much fun as the destination.

Yeah I realise he's probably come from WoW. 

 

And your first point, well that was my point. I mean I played FFXI for 4 years, registering almost 7 months of solid gameplay, so 200hrs is a drop in the bucket.

 

adiktus

To each, his own. The OP obviously is the type that wants only the endgame. Someone who will rush through the levels, without caring about reading the quest, following the story, or whatnot. Quickly reach endgame then that's where the fun starts.

Some of us who treat the journey as equally fun, will obviously not agree with that. I always finish all the quests and follow the story, even if it's not the fastest way to level.

ZeroByteDNA

Originally posted by adiktus

To each, his own. The OP obviously is the type that wants only the endgame. Someone who will rush through the levels, without caring about reading the quest, following the story, or whatnot. Quickly reach endgame then that's where the fun starts.

Some of us who treat the journey as equally fun, will obviously not agree with that. I always finish all the quests and follow the story, even if it's not the fastest way to level.

The question I often ask myself is why could we not have both games?  Why could there not be two separate genres, so to speak?

There could be the games for those that only want to play at endgame - they could easily make the "fantasy FPS" or "dungeondelving" game lobby game... they could even have included some form of progression in it.

And we could have still had the games where the Journey matters - the "destination" is on the other side of that mountain range over there, what we're focused on is what is around us now.  We might get there eventually.

Xenharmonic

Originally posted by adiktus

To each, his own. The OP obviously is the type that wants only the endgame. Someone who will rush through the levels, without caring about reading the quest, following the story, or whatnot. Quickly reach endgame then that's where the fun starts.

Some of us who treat the journey as equally fun, will obviously not agree with that. I always finish all the quests and follow the story, even if it's not the fastest way to level.

You misunderstand me. Im the kind of person who comes from skill based games like Starcraft 2 and Quake live, CnC 3, etc and then says "Hey you know what would be great? More people to play with/a persistent world/more content ETC."

So I try a game like WoW (years and years since I last played it) and then think "Ok this open world is great, player interaction ftw, but why do I have to spend so long doing boring things like kill 10000 mobs, return to questgiver before I get the fun stuff?"

Guild wars 2's philosophy appeals to me—ill definately buy that game. Guild wars 1 looks great, but the whole "click to move" system doesn't appeal to me so I never bought it.

 

PS: I understand what you're saying about the "Journey" but the problem is MMORPGs don't usually offer a good or story based journey. It's nothing like reading a forgotten realms novel—you don't get to make decisions, do interesting stuff... The game basically says "Alright, go get to max level so you can finally play against and with other players"

tupodawg999

I like the levelling game and have no interest in endgame at all. Literally zero. I'd be fine with about 1000 hours to max level.

Different people like different stuff.

I want these games to start having options when you create a char. You could have a "beginner" option that gave a healing and damage buff which made hard combat easy and a "fast exp" option for people in a hurry that gave them 3x or 5x the normal exp or something like that so they could reach max level faster. Then the levelling game could be left alone for the people who like it.

centkin

The problem with the games these days is 80% of the content is consumed in 10% of the time you are expected to play them.

A lot of times 40% of the content goes by in 1% of said time.

This is the problem with the whole "max level in under 10 played days" thing...  You have this whole world and you progress through it in 10 played days and then what?

Usually it is a small number of maps done over and over whether it be pvp or pve.  Far under 20% of the content left for the 90% of the time you spend at the level cap.

At least everquest 1 dedicated a LOT of the content to the end game...  Of course then you have complaints that 90% of the players arent going to EVER see 10% of the content.  EQ1 was also kind of unique later with their AA system where you never REALLY capped...

----

I am an explorer/achiever.  This causes me a lot of problems in the current games because I  NEED lots of new content to enjoy a game and I am not content with being casual so I run out of content far too fast.

 

Walic

Maybe it is just me but it seems like this is what more and more people want, to rush through the game and to the end game stuff.  What is the point you want to rush through a game go play a console game or something.  In my eyes once you reach lvl cap the game is over, yeah you might be able to do some end game raids or what not but after a while that gets old and boring. 

 

My favorite type of game is a game like the original SWG where you could still grind your way through some crap but if you wanted to craft or mess around in your house you could there was always something else to do, not just rush through all the lvls (which then there were no lvls in SWG) to get to the end game stuff.    Like some of the people that posted I enjoy the story and the stuff going on as I am lvling plus I have a life outside of video games so I don't spend 40+ hours a week playing a MMO maybe if I am lucky I will get 24 or less a week.  So while some people hit max lvl in 12 days of straight playing I might it that max lvl in 30+ days, but I bet I will enjoy the game more then you will.

 

I also must agree the OP the guy came from WOW.

VirusDancer

Originally posted by Walic

Maybe it is just me but it seems like this is what more and more people want, to rush through the game and to the end game stuff.  What is the point you want to rush through a game go play a console game or something.  In my eyes once you reach lvl cap the game is over, yeah you might be able to do some end game raids or what not but after a while that gets old and boring. 

 

My favorite type of game is a game like the original SWG where you could still grind your way through some crap but if you wanted to craft or mess around in your house you could there was always something else to do, not just rush through all the lvls (which then there were no lvls in SWG) to get to the end game stuff.    Like some of the people that posted I enjoy the story and the stuff going on as I am lvling plus I have a life outside of video games so I don't spend 40+ hours a week playing a MMO maybe if I am lucky I will get 24 or less a week.  So while some people hit max lvl in 12 days of straight playing I might it that max lvl in 30+ days, but I bet I will enjoy the game more then you will.

 

I also must agree the OP the guy came from WOW.

I really do miss pre-NGE SWG at times.  My lil' Bothan smuggler - all pimped out in white looking like a short hip hop artist, lol.  The vendors in my store - the three ladies in their different colored fleshwraps - the scripted conversations for them.  It definitely felt like a living world compared to most games out there.

BTrayaL

OP, just /facepalm

And there I was complaining that Rift was incredibly fast to be done with (after reaching cap in about 1 month). I have the feeling that the people that complain about too much time for lvl cap are the same that would just buy a max lvl from a cash shop or gold seller.

PKJackCrow

I'm trying to figure out if this is serious or a troll thread. OP would have never made it in EQ when it took half a year to almost a year to hit max level in the orginal. and hell levels would have made him tear his hair out. i really kinda hope this is a troll thread.

BTrayaL

Originally posted by PKJackCrow

I'm trying to figure out if this is serious or a troll thread. OP would have never made it in EQ when it took half a year to almost a year to hit max level in the orginal. and hell levels would have made him tear his hair out. i really kinda hope this is a troll thread.

Reading this, I seriously am sad about not playing EQ back then..

DarkPony

Originally posted by PKJackCrow

I'm trying to figure out if this is serious or a troll thread. OP would have never made it in EQ when it took half a year to almost a year to hit max level in the orginal. and hell levels would have made him tear his hair out. i really kinda hope this is a troll thread.

Yeah. Would be a very clever troll. And if it isn't: Lol @ imagining the OP looking at the poll results.

If there's anything I hate in mmorpgs it's too much gratification and easy mode.

Also Bioware has put quite a bit more effort in the road to endgame mattering much more than simply getting there as quick as possible as in most mmorpgs. i.e.: putting back the RPG in MMORPG. Can only applaud them for that.

JaggaSpikes

if game starts at cap, why not start playing at cap, as well?

VirusDancer

So we look to the market and the games.

So we look to the posts in the thread.

So we look back a the market and the games.

So we look back to the posts in the thread.

 

We are the vocal minority, eh? 

Dewm

Originally posted by VirusDancer

So we look to the market and the games.

So we look to the posts in the thread.

So we look back a tthe market and the games.

So we look back to the posts in the thread.

 

We are the vocal minority, eh? 

While I almost spit out my coffee......its true (

Mavarick77

Ive played Asheron's Call for 12 years and im still 75 levels away from the cap!

 

I would paid top dollar for a modern game like that.

Xenharmonic

Originally posted by BTrayaL

Originally posted by PKJackCrow

I'm trying to figure out if this is serious or a troll thread. OP would have never made it in EQ when it took half a year to almost a year to hit max level in the orginal. and hell levels would have made him tear his hair out. i really kinda hope this is a troll thread.

Reading this, I seriously am sad about not playing EQ back then..

 

This is the kind of attitude im talking about. This "gap" between our perceptions of reality.

Thinking it's fun and reasonable to spend a HUGE amount of time grinding mobs, doing repetitive quests... I don't "get it"

In all seriousness, what about real life? Work, or study, or relationships?  This isn't a troll question it's an issue facing every single human—gamer or otherwise—on the planet

Are you really going to want to put 15 full days into an MMO to hit the cap (Im using the WoW archetype as an example, because we all know it's ridiculously end-game heavy in terms of incentives/content) if you work or study in a field you at least think is ok (and hopefully love or enjoy)?

VirusDancer

Originally posted by Xenharmonic

Originally posted by BTrayaL

Originally posted by PKJackCrow

I'm trying to figure out if this is serious or a troll thread. OP would have never made it in EQ when it took half a year to almost a year to hit max level in the orginal. and hell levels would have made him tear his hair out. i really kinda hope this is a troll thread.

Reading this, I seriously am sad about not playing EQ back then..

 

This is the kind of attitude im talking about. This "gap" between our perceptions of reality.

Thinking it's fun and reasonable to spend a HUGE amount of time grinding mobs, doing repetitive quests... I don't "get it"

In all seriousness, what about real life? Work, or study, or relationships?  This isn't a troll question it's an issue facing every single human—gamer or otherwise—on the planet

Are you really going to want to put 15 full days into an MMO to hit the cap (Im using the WoW archetype as an example, because we all know it's ridiculously end-game heavy in terms of incentives/content) if you work or study in a field you at least think is ok (and hopefully love or enjoy)?

What about real life?  Real life continues.  It goes on.  You play for an hour here, an hour there.  Maybe you play more here and there.  What does real life have to do with it?

Instead of playing one game for a month or two, then playing the next game for a month or two, and the next - and the next and the next - so that you've played 10-20 or more games in the past few years... imagine playing one game?