I want to be challenged starting at level 1. Not just at cap.
I want to feel shamed when I die.
I want to feel really good when I level, or complete a quest, or obtain armor etc.
Problems with level 1 in most games:
1) It often lasts all of 1 minute if that
2) It makes the levelling curve odd
3) Level 2 is at least twice as powerful as level 1
4) A passing breeze can kill you
5) There is never a passing breeze when you need one.
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At any rate this problem goes all the way back to D&D where 2 level 1 fighters would easily die to a level 2 fighter.
Personally I think level 1 should essentially be "level 10" with the requisite number of hps and skills etc such that when you get your first ding, it is incremental as opposed to insane. This would allow them to have easy and hard monsters for starting characters rather than having nothing between easy(level 1) and harsh(level 2) monsters. It would also make things easier to balance such that you wouldnt need to breeze past the levels. It also makes a lot more sense.
I don't really care how long it takes to get to level cap as long as there is fun to be had along the way. Getting to level cap is usually over rated anyway as the game becomes all about raiding and gear grind instead of growing your character.
Not sure if I'll like SWTOR or not. Currently playing 2 Worlds 2. Sometimes I really love that the whole game has voice overs. Other times I want to slap the npc and have them get to the point.
Personally I want the game to take.. a year, maybe a bit more to hit cap. I enjoy long journeys. I definitely don't mind grinds because frankly I enjoy constucting things and having a challenge doing so. Its just my nature. My girlfriend is more about reaching endgame .. to what end I will never understand. Thats probably why Everquest 2 is so perfect for us. I can turn down the level progression as much as I want.
I rember nights playing DAoC that I would begin the session at say, 48.7 and end at 48.2 due to dieing too many times. I thought I would never get to 50 on my first toon. Now a days you get cap players two or three days after launch.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I rember nights playing DAoC that I would begin the session at say, 48.7 and end at 48.2 due to dieing too many times. I thought I would never get to 50 on my first toon. Now a days you get cap players two or three days after launch.
God that would piss me off. I'm all for enjoying the road, but I hate going backwards.
For me, I kind of like the sort of action you can expirence in DFO. While your not going to be the most awesome person alive in the beginning, you can still be somewhat helpful in a clan or ship battle.
I'm not really sure how anyone could think that the process of leveling is mindnumbingly boring and repetetive, while indicating that they only want to get to the level cap were they'll repeat the same limitted amount of content over and and over again.
There isn't a single MMO on the market that has more to do at the level cap then there is to do while leveling. DCUO may be the only exception to that, but only because most everything you're doing while leveling is still done a the cap; with a few more things thrown in.
In every MMO I've played, and I've played a rediculous amount of them, the amount of things to do at max level is always less then when leveling.
At max level you no longer advance your character, so you're losing that.
Your gear options are limitted to whatever raid or PvP set is available for your class; so you lose all the gear options you have while leveling.
You never do the lower level dungeons, but instad end up focussing on just doing one or two every night to progress your single set of gear.
You may get a handfull of quests that you'll repeat daily.
MMO's only ever opens up at max level if you like raiding, and that's actually the minority of the playerbase.
And what is solid play time? 5 hours, 8, 12hours a day? If you played 8 hours a day you would reach max level in ToR in less then a month. 200 hours is hardly long, and is, if I had to guess, about how long it takes to go 1-85 or soon to be 90 in WoW.
Whether you like fast or slow leveling, one thing can be said about just about every MMO, they need more things to do then just the same couple of dungeons and battlegrounds. And that need of more to do isn't just at max level, it's needed at every stage of the game.
First of all 'game start at end-game' + 'before you even go for raiding gear' IS exactly what many folks here are against.
Games used to be fun since beggining. Game should be meaningful from beggining and so called 'levelling' should NOT be trial like.
So yeah till you get to max level should take months like it used to.
Then there is a issue of open world beign currently far too easy (you can faceroll through mostly everything now) + filled with hordes of mobs in every little space which I personally hate.
We get these kind of threads 2-3 times a week, one group of players including me wants more challenge and group oriented MMO, with meningful crafting and housing ect.
Second group want it to be easy, solofriendly all the way up to cap, damn crafting and housing, the real game starts at endgame, raid, raid, raid...
The second group is much larger than the first group they are the second generation of gamers, they started thier gaming more or less with consols and WoW.
So as a company which group would you target mostly to get good profit?
It's easy It's the instant gratification generation in group two that brings in the dough, hence the MMOs and the singleplayer PC market adjusts to that group.
Only a few tries to break the mold and tries to make a difference in the gaming world but sadly they are a indi companies with a great vision with a tight budget.
And the fun part is with the second group is, they are usually the bunny jumpers, they buy a game to rush to endgame play 1-2 months screams on the forums about lack of content and then unsub, and jump on the next big MMO around the corner.
I'm trying to figure out if this is serious or a troll thread. OP would have never made it in EQ when it took half a year to almost a year to hit max level in the orginal. and hell levels would have made him tear his hair out. i really kinda hope this is a troll thread.
Reading this, I seriously am sad about not playing EQ back then..
This is the kind of attitude im talking about. This "gap" between our perceptions of reality.
Thinking it's fun and reasonable to spend a HUGE amount of time grinding mobs, doing repetitive quests... I don't "get it"
In all seriousness, what about real life? Work, or study, or relationships? This isn't a troll question it's an issue facing every single human—gamer or otherwise—on the planet
Are you really going to want to put 15 full days into an MMO to hit the cap (Im using the WoW archetype as an example, because we all know it's ridiculously end-game heavy in terms of incentives/content) if you work or study in a field you at least think is ok (and hopefully love or enjoy)?
You make it sound like you have to complete in specific amount of time (or even at all). It's not a chore or a job, you're supposed to be having fun. Spread that 15 days over a period of a few years.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
If it is a PVP game then yes it can be a race to the end because if you lag behind too much you will have your head handed to yourself many times per day as you try to level up.
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One thing I disagree with though is the whole people who play a lot want to raid thing.
I want to play a lot and then play a lot...
I want to be able to keep levelling beyond levelling -- the whole AA thing.
If it is a PVP game then yes it can be a race to the end because if you lag behind too much you will have your head handed to yourself many times per day as you try to level up.
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One thing I disagree with though is the whole people who play a lot want to raid thing.
I want to play a lot and then play a lot...
I want to be able to keep levelling beyond levelling -- the whole AA thing.
Games with meaningful AA though... are rare. Most are gear progressions rather than continued character progressions.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I honestly don't feel a link between time-to-cap and playability. I entered this hobby before the slowest of MMO leveling rates was ever released, and I'm still here after the fastest leveling rates.
It does suggest that most games do have a very real problem with low and mid level content being too uninteresting though.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I honestly don't feel a link between time-to-cap and playability. I entered this hobby before the slowest of MMO leveling rates was ever released, and I'm still here after the fastest leveling rates.
It does suggest that most games do have a very real problem with low and mid level content being too uninteresting though.
I have noticed in several games, played over a period of time - the removal of content. I noticed this in WoW, CoH, and even with RIFT (which I thought was funny how fast that happened).
You level the first toon. You have X to do.
You level the second toon. You have less than X to do.
You level the third toon. You have even less than X to do.
It is not just a case that developers are increasing XP gain - but they're removing content deemed unnecessary to the progression because of that increased XP gain.
The loss of content in such games could explain how some of it may appear less interesting. You're not getting the full story. Then there is the obvious with the increased XP gain - where you simply outlevel the content before getting to the interesting part.
There were options. They were not linear. They were definitely still themeparks, but they were not themeparks on rails.
Speaking of themeparks, compare it to real themeparks. Here's a personal example:
I lived near a themepark. I got an annual pass. I could go to the themepark and enjoy it at my leisure. If I went out of state and went to a themepark, I might only have a day or two. I had to plan it out carefully, try to maximize my "fun" in a limited time. I had to do X, Y, and Z to do that. In doing so, I actually end up losing some of the fun. It became work. It became stressful. I definitely enjoyed the themepark with the annual pass and no rush...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
We get these kind of threads 2-3 times a week, one group of players including me wants more challenge and group oriented MMO, with meningful crafting and housing ect.
Second group want it to be easy, solofriendly all the way up to cap, damn crafting and housing, the real game starts at endgame, raid, raid, raid...
It's not that simple. Meaningful =/= time played or grinding imo, though you probobly understand this.
WoW is crap. Player based MMOs like EVE have a much better mentality IMO (im not saying EVE is perfect, just that CCP's approach to the MMO is way more on target than PvE grinders like WoW)
The players, one might argue, are the point to a massive online game.
Have the mmorpg community lost touch with reality? Or am I just reading a few weird minority opinions, and the public thinks that 10+ solid days played to reach the level cap in an MMO focused on endgame is ridiculous...?I
200 hours to reach the cap is actually fairly quick by the standards of old, early days EQ1, where you had to pretty much put in as many hours a day in Norrath as you did at work in order to get anywhere. I can't remember the /played time I had on my EQ1 main, but it was a ridiculous amount of time wasted in the end.
The original EQ1 style game design depended entirely on hindering the player, forcing them to play longer. Keeping your players in the game longer meant they'd subscribe longer and you'd make more money. Everything about it was designed to be as slow and frustrating as possible, but compelling enough to keep a player engaged for weeks or months at a time. These days, with so many F2P options and with games like Guild Wars out there, hindering your player and forcing them to play at a snail's pace doesn't work anymore. There are too many other options available.
Have the mmorpg community lost touch with reality? Or am I just reading a few weird minority opinions, and the public thinks that 10+ solid days played to reach the level cap in an MMO focused on endgame is ridiculous...?I
200 hours to reach the cap is actually fairly quick by the standards of old, early days EQ1, where you had to pretty much put in as many hours a day in Norrath as you did at work in order to get anywhere. I can't remember the /played time I had on my EQ1 main, but it was a ridiculous amount of time wasted in the end.
The original EQ1 style game design depended entirely on hindering the player, forcing them to play longer. Keeping your players in the game longer meant they'd subscribe longer and you'd make more money. Everything about it was designed to be as slow and frustrating as possible, but compelling enough to keep a player engaged for weeks or months at a time. These days, with so many F2P options and with games like Guild Wars out there, hindering your player and forcing them to play at a snail's pace doesn't work anymore. There are too many other options available.
It is a MMORPG. You're supposed to play it for years. After all, one of the key features of a MMORPG is a persistent world. Thus, it is logical to assume that a person interested in a MMORPG is looking for a game they can play for an extended period of time - months upon months, if not years upon years.
If a person is looking for a game they can finish in a weekend, a week, a few weeks, a month, a couple of months . . . well, why on Earth would they think they want to play a MMORPG?
There are plenty of single-player games that offer that speedy kind of game play...
If I'm thinking about getting chicken nuggets, some french fries, and a shake for dinner . . . I do not go to Olive Garden.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by VirusDancer It is a MMORPG. You're supposed to play it for years. After all, one of the key features of a MMORPG is a persistent world. Thus, it is logical to assume that a person interested in a MMORPG is looking for a game they can play for an extended period of time - months upon months, if not years upon years.
Sure. But the main difference between MMO players now and MMO players back when EQ1 launched is that very, very few people are willing to devote their lives to a video game. Spending years in the same game? Not as common anymore. That's a consequence of there being a lot more options for games and a lot more options for entertainment now.
BTW, it's possible to play the newer games for months and months, if not longer.
Let's look at SWTOR. If we assume 200 hours per class to get to the level cap x 8 classes x 2 advanced classes for each class = 3200 hours of gameplay. That's almost 134 solid days of gameplay if you play 24/7. Very, very few people will do that. Most will play 2-4 hours a day. If a casual player ends up liking SWTOR enough to play through all 8 classes twice, it would take them months to do it all at a slow pace.
If you're one of those raider types that burns through everything to get to the level cap so you can raid? Yeah, you'll be gone soon enough, or you'll end up whining about how there's nothing to do.
If a person is looking for a game they can finish in a weekend, a week, a few weeks, a month, a couple of months . . . well, why on Earth would they think they want to play a MMORPG? There are plenty of single-player games that offer that speedy kind of game play...
Maybe they play MMOs because they want to. There's no one, proper way to play these games. You don't have to sign your life away to Blizzard, or CCP or Funcom or whoever for years at a time anymore, and I'm grateful for that. Did it with EQ1. Won't do it again.
I guess I didn't follow the rules. I answered that I want it much longer than 10 days. But I HATE "endgame games," so I'm answering as if it was any OTHER kind of MMO because I wouldn't be playing an "endgame game."
It is a MMORPG. You're supposed to play it for years. After all, one of the key features of a MMORPG is a persistent world. Thus, it is logical to assume that a person interested in a MMORPG is looking for a game they can play for an extended period of time - months upon months, if not years upon years.
Sure. But the main difference between MMO players now and MMO players back when EQ1 launched is that very, very few people are willing to devote their lives to a video game. Spending years in the same game? Not as common anymore. That's a consequence of there being a lot more options for games and a lot more options for entertainment now.
Devoting their life to a video game? No game asks you to devote your life to it. It's a game. You play it at your leisure. It's not a job. It's not a case that if you miss a couple of days that you get fired. It's not a case that the game is going to feel that you are not giving it enough attention so it is going to have an affair. It's a game.
BTW, it's possible to play the newer games for months and months, if not longer.
In one of two ways, that may be the case. By playing an extemely little amount of time or by repeatedly playing the same content over and over again. Neither is the same as playing a game for months and months where you are actually playing the game and not repeating the same thing over and over again.
Let's look at SWTOR. If we assume 200 hours per class to get to the level cap x 8 classes x 2 advanced classes for each class = 3200 hours of gameplay. That's almost 134 solid days of gameplay if you play 24/7. Very, very few people will do that. Most will play 2-4 hours a day. If a casual player ends up liking SWTOR enough to play through all 8 classes twice, it would take them months to do it all at a slow pace.
It is not 3200 hours of distinct game play. You're giving the game 1-3 months, before you have to roll an alt to experience some new and some old content. Compare that to the player that is 3-6 months in and still on the first character.
If you're one of those raider types that burns through everything to get to the level cap so you can raid? Yeah, you'll be gone soon enough, or you'll end up whining about how there's nothing to do.
Outside of the raider, who would actually find themselves devoted to the game? Based on your comments so far, I had assumed that you were a raider.
If a person is looking for a game they can finish in a weekend, a week, a few weeks, a month, a couple of months . . . well, why on Earth would they think they want to play a MMORPG?
There are plenty of single-player games that offer that speedy kind of game play...
Maybe they play MMOs because they want to. There's no one, proper way to play these games. You don't have to sign your life away to Blizzard, or CCP or Funcom or whoever for years at a time anymore, and I'm grateful for that. Did it with EQ1. Won't do it again.
It is one thing to be a guest, to visit those games, and to enjoy them for what they are - but when you set about to change how those games are - ruining them for players that enjoy them as they are - then there are issues.
Again, I really do not get the signing your life away. It's a game. You're having fun. If you're having fun with the one game, then you're not spending countless amounts of money while game-hopping and always finding that you're never satisfied.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
It is a MMORPG. You're supposed to play it for years. After all, one of the key features of a MMORPG is a persistent world. Thus, it is logical to assume that a person interested in a MMORPG is looking for a game they can play for an extended period of time - months upon months, if not years upon years.
I'm just going to add my two cents in here...and there...and over there.
Sure. But the main difference between MMO players now and MMO players back when EQ1 launched is that very, very few people are willing to devote their lives to a video game. Spending years in the same game? Not as common anymore. That's a consequence of there being a lot more options for games and a lot more options for entertainment now.
Devoting their life to a video game? No game asks you to devote your life to it. It's a game. You play it at your leisure. It's not a job. It's not a case that if you miss a couple of days that you get fired. It's not a case that the game is going to feel that you are not giving it enough attention so it is going to have an affair. It's a game.
I have this question to the man typing in white, While all of the point above me are valid. Do we have a case of players not looking for that type of game? or that type of game not available to the players..
I know for myself, if FFXI-2 came out, which FFXI was pretty much a second job, then I would buy it in a heart beat....BUT there aren't any games out there that aren't 8+ years old.
BTW, it's possible to play the newer games for months and months, if not longer.
In one of two ways, that may be the case. By playing an extemely little amount of time or by repeatedly playing the same content over and over again. Neither is the same as playing a game for months and months where you are actually playing the game and not repeating the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, you could play newer games for months, I did play WoW for about 6 months. but 1. I want a game that will keep me for a year+ not just a few months. and probably 50% of my time in WOW was doing repeat stuff.
Let's look at SWTOR. If we assume 200 hours per class to get to the level cap x 8 classes x 2 advanced classes for each class = 3200 hours of gameplay. That's almost 134 solid days of gameplay if you play 24/7. Very, very few people will do that. Most will play 2-4 hours a day. If a casual player ends up liking SWTOR enough to play through all 8 classes twice, it would take them months to do it all at a slow pace.
It is not 3200 hours of distinct game play. You're giving the game 1-3 months, before you have to roll an alt to experience some new and some old content. Compare that to the player that is 3-6 months in and still on the first character.
I'm going to tell you right now, that those "200hours per class" was including starting area's, and 80% of the quest. If you think that each class is going to have 200 hours of uniqe experience then you are wayyyyy dumber then I thought.
So assuming classes share 80% of the same content, you have more like 200hrs for the original alt. and then 40hrs per alt after...soooo 10 classes, 400...carrie the nine... 600hrs of gameplay, so thats 25 days of solid gameplay.... and thats if they play EVERY SINGLE CLASS FOR EVERY SINGLE QUEST READING EVERY SINGLE BIT OF TEXT!
If you're one of those raider types that burns through everything to get to the level cap so you can raid? Yeah, you'll be gone soon enough, or you'll end up whining about how there's nothing to do.
Outside of the raider, who would actually find themselves devoted to the game? Based on your comments so far, I had assumed that you were a raider.
I'm about the journey, deffinitly not a raider. yuck...
If a person is looking for a game they can finish in a weekend, a week, a few weeks, a month, a couple of months . . . well, why on Earth would they think they want to play a MMORPG?
There are plenty of single-player games that offer that speedy kind of game play...
Maybe they play MMOs because they want to. There's no one, proper way to play these games. You don't have to sign your life away to Blizzard, or CCP or Funcom or whoever for years at a time anymore, and I'm grateful for that. Did it with EQ1. Won't do it again.
It is one thing to be a guest, to visit those games, and to enjoy them for what they are - but when you set about to change how those games are - ruining them for players that enjoy them as they are - then there are issues.
Example: If I pull risk off of my shelf, I am expecting to play risk, I don't get it down..and then try to tweak it into chess. Sure people can play MMO's if they want to, hell I want to play mmo's. But i'm tired of people (possibly like you) that get on and they just want signle player content, GET OUT OF MY F****N game!!!!!!
I want to play a M-M-O-R-P-G, Massivly (lotsa people) multiplayer (we all interact) Online (duh) roleplaying (char. progression) playing game.
how hard is that to understand?
Again, I really do not get the signing your life away. It's a game. You're having fun. If you're having fun with the one game, then you're not spending countless amounts of money while game-hopping and always finding that you're never satisfied.
Sometimes, on forums and such, I read things like "It's too easy to get 85 in WoW" or "MMOs level too fast these days"
What? Level too fast relative to what? 15 days SOLID playtime until the level cap isn't enough for you, and that's before you even go raiding for gear?
I hear SWTOR is going to take around 200 hours to hit the level cap. Huge thumbs down for me. In my opinion this is a ridiculous amount of time to spend reaching the level cap, when in modern MMOs the game "starts at the cap" or whatever.
Have the mmorpg community lost touch with reality? Or am I just reading a few weird minority opinions, and the public thinks that 10+ solid days played to reach the level cap in an MMO focused on endgame is ridiculous...?
I added a poll down the bottom. Assume the game is like World of Warcraft (focused on endgame both PvP and PvE wise), and it takes 10+ days of solid leveling to hit the cap.
Edit: To clarify, im not talking about the "ultimate" mmo where all levels are fun. Im talking about end-game focused games like WoW where the mid-levels are mind numbingly boring and repetitive. My experience is that quite a few MMOs today (I'd love you to provide good modern examples where im wrong) fit these criteria.
Thanks for your votes and responses!
I think all MMOs right now are too short. 200 hours for SWTOR is sad. Thats not even 5 weeks of 40 hour work weeks. Thats less time than the US Airforce dedicates to training its Airmen.
I think the most enjoyment I have had was when I played a game with no levels. And skill gains were slow, but not mind numbingly slow. Where having a maxed skill was a achievement to be proud of. But not all skills gained at the same rate. And if you didnt use them they went down over time. So you were constinantly busy doing something.
yes, that style - stupid grind thru repetitive levels til end-game to Start the Game is annoying, and that's not question is this grind 1 week, 1 month etc. If game don't offering nothing til end, then make it end-game like FPS-es are.
I still remember EQ1 where I spent 4,5 years and all that so-called leveling - we don't thought about levels, we adventuring in waste world, exploring some higher zones, running from mobs with adrenaline bursts. And there was something very interesting to do at every level - be it discovering Kurn's Tower secrets, or later Crystal Cave on Velious, or groupin in Soluseks or making raids for Lord Nagafen or Lady Vox at mid levels. Going for Velious dragons or those bad-asses in Emerald Jungle or Sebilis. There was by now-a-days terms high.end content in near every level.
Same feeling I had with LOTRO (pre-Moria) - I adventured not for leveling but to discover those areas I have read in Tolkien's books and saw in films. Later when they introduced stupid repetitive grind for radiance and some few raids, and nearly nothing more to do - that was boring... end-game.
Again Fallen Earth came and I enjoyd every level and travelled in every place to find hidden secrets game can offer. That was most fun time tho it offeres a lot more - for me (havnt played SWG) FE crafating system is best and most complex and meaningful I met in MMOs. And now after conversion they made it even more better - taking away all weapons and armors from NPC-s and let them to made only by player economic. Ya craft them yarself or obtain from other players. So not only high-end craft is needed but all levels of crafyting have meaning for both crafter and their customers.
Comments
I want to be challenged starting at level 1. Not just at cap.
I want to feel shamed when I die.
I want to feel really good when I level, or complete a quest, or obtain armor etc.
Problems with level 1 in most games:
1) It often lasts all of 1 minute if that
2) It makes the levelling curve odd
3) Level 2 is at least twice as powerful as level 1
4) A passing breeze can kill you
5) There is never a passing breeze when you need one.
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At any rate this problem goes all the way back to D&D where 2 level 1 fighters would easily die to a level 2 fighter.
Personally I think level 1 should essentially be "level 10" with the requisite number of hps and skills etc such that when you get your first ding, it is incremental as opposed to insane. This would allow them to have easy and hard monsters for starting characters rather than having nothing between easy(level 1) and harsh(level 2) monsters. It would also make things easier to balance such that you wouldnt need to breeze past the levels. It also makes a lot more sense.
That's what I loved about early Lineage 2, you didn't zoom to cap. It took me a full week of heavy playing just to get to lvl 20.
And what one did during those levels was, for the most part, what one did throughout the game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't really care how long it takes to get to level cap as long as there is fun to be had along the way. Getting to level cap is usually over rated anyway as the game becomes all about raiding and gear grind instead of growing your character.
Not sure if I'll like SWTOR or not. Currently playing 2 Worlds 2. Sometimes I really love that the whole game has voice overs. Other times I want to slap the npc and have them get to the point.
Personally I want the game to take.. a year, maybe a bit more to hit cap. I enjoy long journeys. I definitely don't mind grinds because frankly I enjoy constucting things and having a challenge doing so. Its just my nature. My girlfriend is more about reaching endgame .. to what end I will never understand. Thats probably why Everquest 2 is so perfect for us. I can turn down the level progression as much as I want.
I rember nights playing DAoC that I would begin the session at say, 48.7 and end at 48.2 due to dieing too many times. I thought I would never get to 50 on my first toon. Now a days you get cap players two or three days after launch.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
God that would piss me off. I'm all for enjoying the road, but I hate going backwards.
For me, I kind of like the sort of action you can expirence in DFO. While your not going to be the most awesome person alive in the beginning, you can still be somewhat helpful in a clan or ship battle.
I'm not really sure how anyone could think that the process of leveling is mindnumbingly boring and repetetive, while indicating that they only want to get to the level cap were they'll repeat the same limitted amount of content over and and over again.
There isn't a single MMO on the market that has more to do at the level cap then there is to do while leveling. DCUO may be the only exception to that, but only because most everything you're doing while leveling is still done a the cap; with a few more things thrown in.
In every MMO I've played, and I've played a rediculous amount of them, the amount of things to do at max level is always less then when leveling.
At max level you no longer advance your character, so you're losing that.
Your gear options are limitted to whatever raid or PvP set is available for your class; so you lose all the gear options you have while leveling.
You never do the lower level dungeons, but instad end up focussing on just doing one or two every night to progress your single set of gear.
You may get a handfull of quests that you'll repeat daily.
MMO's only ever opens up at max level if you like raiding, and that's actually the minority of the playerbase.
And what is solid play time? 5 hours, 8, 12hours a day? If you played 8 hours a day you would reach max level in ToR in less then a month. 200 hours is hardly long, and is, if I had to guess, about how long it takes to go 1-85 or soon to be 90 in WoW.
Whether you like fast or slow leveling, one thing can be said about just about every MMO, they need more things to do then just the same couple of dungeons and battlegrounds. And that need of more to do isn't just at max level, it's needed at every stage of the game.
@ OP
First of all 'game start at end-game' + 'before you even go for raiding gear' IS exactly what many folks here are against.
Games used to be fun since beggining. Game should be meaningful from beggining and so called 'levelling' should NOT be trial like.
So yeah till you get to max level should take months like it used to.
Then there is a issue of open world beign currently far too easy (you can faceroll through mostly everything now) + filled with hordes of mobs in every little space which I personally hate.
We get these kind of threads 2-3 times a week, one group of players including me wants more challenge and group oriented MMO, with meningful crafting and housing ect.
Second group want it to be easy, solofriendly all the way up to cap, damn crafting and housing, the real game starts at endgame, raid, raid, raid...
The second group is much larger than the first group they are the second generation of gamers, they started thier gaming more or less with consols and WoW.
So as a company which group would you target mostly to get good profit?
It's easy It's the instant gratification generation in group two that brings in the dough, hence the MMOs and the singleplayer PC market adjusts to that group.
Only a few tries to break the mold and tries to make a difference in the gaming world but sadly they are a indi companies with a great vision with a tight budget.
And the fun part is with the second group is, they are usually the bunny jumpers, they buy a game to rush to endgame play 1-2 months screams on the forums about lack of content and then unsub, and jump on the next big MMO around the corner.
MMO industry is really fubar.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
You make it sound like you have to complete in specific amount of time (or even at all). It's not a chore or a job, you're supposed to be having fun. Spread that 15 days over a period of a few years.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Depends a lot on the game.
If it is a PVP game then yes it can be a race to the end because if you lag behind too much you will have your head handed to yourself many times per day as you try to level up.
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One thing I disagree with though is the whole people who play a lot want to raid thing.
I want to play a lot and then play a lot...
I want to be able to keep levelling beyond levelling -- the whole AA thing.
Games with meaningful AA though... are rare. Most are gear progressions rather than continued character progressions.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I honestly don't feel a link between time-to-cap and playability. I entered this hobby before the slowest of MMO leveling rates was ever released, and I'm still here after the fastest leveling rates.
It does suggest that most games do have a very real problem with low and mid level content being too uninteresting though.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I have noticed in several games, played over a period of time - the removal of content. I noticed this in WoW, CoH, and even with RIFT (which I thought was funny how fast that happened).
You level the first toon. You have X to do.
You level the second toon. You have less than X to do.
You level the third toon. You have even less than X to do.
It is not just a case that developers are increasing XP gain - but they're removing content deemed unnecessary to the progression because of that increased XP gain.
The loss of content in such games could explain how some of it may appear less interesting. You're not getting the full story. Then there is the obvious with the increased XP gain - where you simply outlevel the content before getting to the interesting part.
There were options. They were not linear. They were definitely still themeparks, but they were not themeparks on rails.
Speaking of themeparks, compare it to real themeparks. Here's a personal example:
I lived near a themepark. I got an annual pass. I could go to the themepark and enjoy it at my leisure. If I went out of state and went to a themepark, I might only have a day or two. I had to plan it out carefully, try to maximize my "fun" in a limited time. I had to do X, Y, and Z to do that. In doing so, I actually end up losing some of the fun. It became work. It became stressful. I definitely enjoyed the themepark with the annual pass and no rush...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It's not that simple. Meaningful =/= time played or grinding imo, though you probobly understand this.
WoW is crap. Player based MMOs like EVE have a much better mentality IMO (im not saying EVE is perfect, just that CCP's approach to the MMO is way more on target than PvE grinders like WoW)
The players, one might argue, are the point to a massive online game.
200 hours to reach the cap is actually fairly quick by the standards of old, early days EQ1, where you had to pretty much put in as many hours a day in Norrath as you did at work in order to get anywhere. I can't remember the /played time I had on my EQ1 main, but it was a ridiculous amount of time wasted in the end.
The original EQ1 style game design depended entirely on hindering the player, forcing them to play longer. Keeping your players in the game longer meant they'd subscribe longer and you'd make more money. Everything about it was designed to be as slow and frustrating as possible, but compelling enough to keep a player engaged for weeks or months at a time. These days, with so many F2P options and with games like Guild Wars out there, hindering your player and forcing them to play at a snail's pace doesn't work anymore. There are too many other options available.
It is a MMORPG. You're supposed to play it for years. After all, one of the key features of a MMORPG is a persistent world. Thus, it is logical to assume that a person interested in a MMORPG is looking for a game they can play for an extended period of time - months upon months, if not years upon years.
If a person is looking for a game they can finish in a weekend, a week, a few weeks, a month, a couple of months . . . well, why on Earth would they think they want to play a MMORPG?
There are plenty of single-player games that offer that speedy kind of game play...
If I'm thinking about getting chicken nuggets, some french fries, and a shake for dinner . . . I do not go to Olive Garden.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Sure. But the main difference between MMO players now and MMO players back when EQ1 launched is that very, very few people are willing to devote their lives to a video game. Spending years in the same game? Not as common anymore. That's a consequence of there being a lot more options for games and a lot more options for entertainment now.
BTW, it's possible to play the newer games for months and months, if not longer.
Let's look at SWTOR. If we assume 200 hours per class to get to the level cap x 8 classes x 2 advanced classes for each class = 3200 hours of gameplay. That's almost 134 solid days of gameplay if you play 24/7. Very, very few people will do that. Most will play 2-4 hours a day. If a casual player ends up liking SWTOR enough to play through all 8 classes twice, it would take them months to do it all at a slow pace.
If you're one of those raider types that burns through everything to get to the level cap so you can raid? Yeah, you'll be gone soon enough, or you'll end up whining about how there's nothing to do.
Maybe they play MMOs because they want to. There's no one, proper way to play these games. You don't have to sign your life away to Blizzard, or CCP or Funcom or whoever for years at a time anymore, and I'm grateful for that. Did it with EQ1. Won't do it again.
I guess I didn't follow the rules. I answered that I want it much longer than 10 days. But I HATE "endgame games," so I'm answering as if it was any OTHER kind of MMO because I wouldn't be playing an "endgame game."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Far be it from me to expect this stale genre to evolve even a little bit.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
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I think all MMOs right now are too short. 200 hours for SWTOR is sad. Thats not even 5 weeks of 40 hour work weeks. Thats less time than the US Airforce dedicates to training its Airmen.
I think the most enjoyment I have had was when I played a game with no levels. And skill gains were slow, but not mind numbingly slow. Where having a maxed skill was a achievement to be proud of. But not all skills gained at the same rate. And if you didnt use them they went down over time. So you were constinantly busy doing something.
But that game is dead now. Sad really.
So much crap, so little quality.
yes, that style - stupid grind thru repetitive levels til end-game to Start the Game is annoying, and that's not question is this grind 1 week, 1 month etc. If game don't offering nothing til end, then make it end-game like FPS-es are.
I still remember EQ1 where I spent 4,5 years and all that so-called leveling - we don't thought about levels, we adventuring in waste world, exploring some higher zones, running from mobs with adrenaline bursts. And there was something very interesting to do at every level - be it discovering Kurn's Tower secrets, or later Crystal Cave on Velious, or groupin in Soluseks or making raids for Lord Nagafen or Lady Vox at mid levels. Going for Velious dragons or those bad-asses in Emerald Jungle or Sebilis. There was by now-a-days terms high.end content in near every level.
Same feeling I had with LOTRO (pre-Moria) - I adventured not for leveling but to discover those areas I have read in Tolkien's books and saw in films. Later when they introduced stupid repetitive grind for radiance and some few raids, and nearly nothing more to do - that was boring... end-game.
Again Fallen Earth came and I enjoyd every level and travelled in every place to find hidden secrets game can offer. That was most fun time tho it offeres a lot more - for me (havnt played SWG) FE crafating system is best and most complex and meaningful I met in MMOs. And now after conversion they made it even more better - taking away all weapons and armors from NPC-s and let them to made only by player economic. Ya craft them yarself or obtain from other players. So not only high-end craft is needed but all levels of crafyting have meaning for both crafter and their customers.