The problem is that due to the fast leveling enjoying the actual pre-raiding content becomes almost impossible. You can't play all the interesting quests, won't even be able to go through every zone and this because you end up out-leveling them way too soon. And questing in a zone where you can't get any rewards and can kill mobs even easier/faster than normally is just bleh.
You see if the leveling process was so slow or the amount of content so little that you just end up farming random generic npc's just because you need to be a higher level to move on i'd get the point. But right now people skip content to get to other content which they end up mindlessly farm and repeat. It's a lose-lose really.
Hi general! Thank you for such a good and indepth response.
You say that due to fast leveling people miss content. This is true—in mmos like WoW today you won't do all the quests and visit all the zones. But what are you really missing out on? From my experience of games like WoW, almost nothing. It's the same recycled "Kill X of this" "Deliver X message to Y" "Collect 15 mushrooms" ETC.
The "content" is the same but the models are different. Not something I want to spend 10 days straight doing—which is the premise of this thread.
The question is, what does constitute "different" content? Afterall isn't the end game exactly like that too? Kill some packs and a boss? Sure the mechanics of the bosses are different but in the end what's in between is often very similar and the bosses themselves can sometimes be very similar as well (avoid shit on the ground, blablabla).
Now i would agree more diversification is very welcome but one must keep in mind different models give a different feeling/atmosphere. On top of that usually quests vary. Now at the end or mid-way most quest mechanics will seem oddly familiar even the less "unimaginative" .
Who says the game starts at the cap? Sure some games are designed that way but usually it's players who convince themselves that's true. You're lying to yourself, that's all.
There's no lying—the game hasn't been released. I think you're right though, I shouldn't "presume" that SW:TOR will start at the cap like WoW. It's a very real possibility though, either on release or with further patches.
I guess we can only wait and see. I myself ain't sure if i'm even going to play swtor i'm more of a sandbox fan myself.
The problem i have is that to your standards WoW is end-game focused to such a point the leveling experience sucks if it's longer than 10 days. Which is WRONG. If you level at a normal pace you won't even do half the quests and won't visit all the zones, meaning that the pace of leveling is too fast.
It's only my opinion that leveling (specifically, the middle leveling—the first 30 or 40 levels are a blast and im sure at the cap it can be fun) in World of Warcraft is mind numbingly boring.
The lack of variety in the mobs, quests and dungeons turns the game into a PvE grinder which I don't like.
Im biased on this point because I prefer more player driven games (and the IDEA of this kind of game) where PvP is important.
Well off course it gets more repetitive along the road, one can only create so much variety. But the thing is that faster leveling isn't always the answer. The problem is that it sets a whole "rush to the end-level" feeling which results in people actually enjoying the leveling less because they're too focused on getting at that end-level. I mean why should i go hunt for rare mobs (which can be fun) if i level so fast that item he drops is going to be obsolete before i can even equip it anyway? (obvious exageration but you get the point).
On top of that people spend less time enjoying the scenery, reading the lore, etc. Because it slows them down and by God they don't want to lose 1 second of end-game grinding. But the worst part is that game ends up being designed to please these players and it becomes harder and harder to actually enjoy the leveling experience.
On top of that while it could be said little effort is being put in the leveling content i don't feel any more efforts are put in the end-game content. So it's not as if the end-game is getting more love or something.
The only thing which marginalizes the leveling experience in WoW is the fast pace of leveling and way too low difficulty.
Wrong. Whether or not it's the fault of the developers or the players, the end game in WoW receieves MUCH more love in both PvE and PvP. Wanna raid? Most people are doing it at the cap. Wanna PvP? a LOT more people doing that at the cap too.
It does from players, but does that mean it actually deserves it? Cataclysm revamped the whole old continent. That most likely took a LOT of time. Yet people still rushed to end level and farmed that.
One of the Guild Wars 2 designers, Isaiah Cartwright says it well (In GW 2, the leveling apparently will be more a "flat line" than a curve")
“Anyone can increase the length of an experience bar and call it content”,
True. Obviously neither you nor me want that
“We expect content—not long, grindy progression—to be the deciding factor that keeps people playing our game. We want everyone to stick with Guild Wars 2 because our content is fun and enjoyable, not out of some dogged determination to slowly, slowly advance."
Correct as well so obviously it's a matter of balance. But going back to wow. The content is there the experience bar however is too short to absorb the content. Which is a huge design flaw if you ask me. If you made the content why not design the game for it to be played?
Thanks for your votes and responses!
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Themparks are in a catch 22 as far as progression goes. They want to focus on endgame pve and pvp, as thats where everyone will be eventually and they will need to keep them playing past progression, however all of the focus on the endgame makes the progression part of the game seem like crap in comparison. Also they obviously focus far less time on it.
So you have people who want X class at endgame but now have to endure another repeate trip to endgame, it gets boring so they look for any and all ways to circumvent it via powerleveling ect, even missing content on purpose due to it being a time waster.
Bottom line is that people no longer want a fun trip to endgame, or an endgame where reaching it is meaningful and an accomplishment, the only few games that have such a strategy do so by incredibly low xp gains and few if any quests (asian grinders) which only fuels the hatred for the trip to endgame.
I play darkfall, which doesnt have a specific "endgame" however you wouldnt know from talking to people in game whos only objective is to get there asap. The games endured multiple skill gain increases, an off line skilling system, and new expansion will further make it easier to progress. This is something i dislike, i really enjoy the trip, especially since its a sandbox in perticulair.
I fear we are only a few major mmo releases away from a static level gear based mmorpg being a hit. Think FPS death matches, arenas, raids and no levels.
I remember when MMORPGs first started being populair, right around anarchy online, i was estatic i could now play the RPG games i loved but there was no "finished" part of the game, it was ever expanding. The whole reason i started paying to play was that i was sick of beating RPG's in a few weeks then having to look for a new one with a longer game involved.
I really believe that the only true game progression left is going to be found in sandboxes, specifically ones with no skill caps, where you can make it with melee then decide to start leveling another "class" within the same character. Darkfall has that but failed in where you can be the best at everything all at the same time, they need to restrict what you can use during a battle.
Themparks are in a catch 22 as far as progression goes. They want to focus on endgame pve and pvp, as thats where everyone will be eventually and they will need to keep them playing past progression, however all of the focus on the endgame makes the progression part of the game seem like crap in comparison. Also they obviously focus far less time on it.
So you have people who want X class at endgame but now have to endure another repeate trip to endgame, it gets boring so they look for any and all ways to circumvent it via powerleveling ect, even missing content on purpose due to it being a time waster.
Bottom line is that people no longer want a fun trip to endgame, or an endgame where reaching it is meaningful and an accomplishment, the only few games that have such a strategy do so by incredibly low xp gains and few if any quests (asian grinders) which only fuels the hatred for the trip to endgame.
I play darkfall, which doesnt have a specific "endgame" however you wouldnt know from talking to people in game whos only objective is to get there asap. The games endured multiple skill gain increases, an off line skilling system, and new expansion will further make it easier to progress. This is something i dislike, i really enjoy the trip, especially since its a sandbox in perticulair.
I fear we are only a few major mmo releases away from a static level gear based mmorpg being a hit. Think FPS death matches, arenas, raids and no levels.
I remember when MMORPGs first started being populair, right around anarchy online, i was estatic i could now play the RPG games i loved but there was no "finished" part of the game, it was ever expanding. The whole reason i started paying to play was that i was sick of beating RPG's in a few weeks then having to look for a new one with a longer game involved.
I really believe that the only true game progression left is going to be found in sandboxes, specifically ones with no skill caps, where you can make it with melee then decide to start leveling another "class" within the same character. Darkfall has that but failed in where you can be the best at everything all at the same time, they need to restrict what you can use during a battle.
Yeah, it is true. When the games focus more on endgame the players put more energy to get there fast and so on.
I think MMOs needs to update the mechanics and content so all the content feels important, not just the endgame.
This is exactly the problem with games today. Its so damn easy to hit level cap. The most fun I have had in an MMO was playing the original EQ with friends just running around leveling doing quests and exploring. It took us a long time to hit level cap and the reason we had so much fun is because even though it took so long to reach the level no one really cared. The journey to the level cap was fun. All the current games today focus so much on end game that the rest of their content is complete crap.
I'm playing AoC and I will admit leveling in that game is not fun at all, but the game did get very fun once I hit cap...the only reason I actually made it to cap was there was nothing else out there that even interested me.
There was a saying in old SWG... "Only the unemployed are Jedi." That's how I liked my games. Endgame wasn't a race it was a reward for hard work, and dilligence.
Can you imagine these upstarts playing Pen and Paper D&D...
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
With 176 answers it appears most do not agree with the OP. Interesting. The challenge for a game seems to be making all areas of the journey meaningful. With many MMOs it is said "the game really begins at 30" or "it's the endgame where this MMO really shines".
Screw that! If the fun starts at endgame then start me at endgame and don't make me jump through your trash levels. We've all played them. After leaving the starter areas and after leaving your 1st major zone, the originality peters out and the grind sets in. Formula quest with identikit mobs with skant nod to the lore. You've got some really cool abilities but you have a look at the end of you skill tree and realize that it's just 1-3% boosts and weaksauce intermediates until you hit the bigtime. Get your pick axe out! Repeat those dailys! Gring! Grind! GRIND!
I just want to feel rewarded for taking the time to actually explore and not rush to the endgame graveyard where the raid zombies prowl. I want a game that I can increase my characters depth as well as it's power. I want to make an original contribution when I craft, not just cloned gear with increased stats. Make the journey meaningful.
Please?
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy. ______________________________ "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
People expects to be able to play a game 6-8 hours a day and not run out of content in 1-2 month is just plain silly, and unhealthy to a certain extent.
People keep asking for games that will take forever to finish, I need to able to go here, there over the mountains and below the water. Do people honestly know how many polygons and collision checks will that take?
Immersion is about being 'in the moment', not to be able to waste your life ingame everyday living out a virtual life, sure you will role play and all, but most of your socialisation ingame is based from one real person to another real person, not an ingame character to another. Ultimately, most MMORPG is designed to be a game, not a virtual service. A game needs an ending to be great, just like another other story.
Journey is important, but so is the ending.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
People expects to be able to play a game 6-8 hours a day and not run out of content in 1-2 month is just plain silly, and unhealthy to a certain extent.
People keep asking for games that will take forever to finish, I need to able to go here, there over the mountains and below the water. Do people honestly know how many polygons and collision checks will that take?
Immersion is about being 'in the moment', not to be able to waste your life ingame everyday living out a virtual life, sure you will role play and all, but most of your socialisation ingame is based from one real person to another real person, not an ingame character to another. Ultimately, most MMORPG is designed to be a game, not a virtual service. A game needs an ending to be great, just like another other story.
Journey is important, but so is the ending.
You completly missed what we are all saying. No one is saying the end isnt important. We are also not saying that we expect to play 8 hours a day. What we are saying is that the middle and beginning of the game should feel just as important and fun as the end. I shouldn't feel like they just threw some crap together to make the game take more time. And there have been games where you can go everywhere you can see, its not really that big of an issue with todays capabilities.
Immersion is also about making a world believable and fun, which is exactly what many mmos dont do. Its possible for a game to have a lot of content, or at least make the middle of the road fun without inhumane amounts of work. But if a games only focus is on the end game, then thats usually going to be the only fun part because they ignored the rest.
Sometimes, on forums and such, I read things like "It's too easy to get 85 in WoW" or "MMOs level too fast these days"
What? Level too fast relative to what? 15 days SOLID playtime until the level cap isn't enough for you, and that's before you even go raiding for gear?
I hear SWTOR is going to take around 200 hours to hit the level cap. Huge thumbs down for me. In my opinion this is a ridiculous amount of time to spend reaching the level cap, when in modern MMOs the game "starts at the cap" or whatever. Don't forget those 200hrs are going to include the cut scenes, based upon previous bioware games it could be only 50hrs actual gameplay.
Have the mmorpg community lost touch with reality? Or am I just reading a few weird minority opinions, and the public thinks that 10+ solid days played to reach the level cap in an MMO focused on endgame is ridiculous...?
I added a poll down the bottom. Assume the game is like World of Warcraft (focused on endgame both PvP and PvE wise), and it takes 10+ days of solid leveling to hit the cap.
Edit: To clarify, im not talking about the "ultimate" mmo where all levels are fun. Im talking about end-game focused games like WoW where the mid-levels are mind numbingly boring and repetitive. My experience is that quite a few MMOs today (I'd love you to provide good modern examples where im wrong) fit these criteria. I think you needed to highlight this part:)
There was a saying in old SWG... "Only the unemployed are Jedi." That's how I liked my games. Endgame wasn't a race it was a reward for hard work, and dilligence.
Can you imagine these upstarts playing Pen and Paper D&D...
That basically explains it. MMORPGs are no longer for the old PnP RPGers...in general.
Companies and players are still using the same term - but the genre has changed.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
It really annoys me when people like the OP considers modern MMO's focused on the end game, just because he believes the leveling is boring. I mean, I'm not disagreeing that the leveling is boring, but they weren't intended to be. With WoTLK and Cataclysm, I've found that quests are more entertaining, but still not entertaining enough to repeat several times.
Regardless of how boring the leveling experience is, leveling up should take a very long time because it is the majority of the games content. It's your characters life journey, not his childhood. What happens at max level is only icing on the cake, not the entire cake itself.
As for SWTOR, the game is focused on the journey, not the endgame. We know this because we know Biowares story telling ability. When I think about SWTOR, I'm thinking about playing through each characters storylines, not running Flashpoints and Operations ad naseum, although I do plan to run them once or twice.
So he thinks it's boring, you think it's boring, but you think games should make it a huge part of the game?
Your "character's life journey" is all his actions. His journey doesn't magically stop, just because he stops leveling.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is what made old games so great. MMOs are all about the journey, not the destination. DAoC was extremely endgame oriented, but it still took you forever to get to 50. I can still remember the second I got my first level 50. I literally ran around the house screaming lol (like a soccer score XD). Now you get to level cap and you want to move on to the next game (except Rift and lotro for me).
Themparks are in a catch 22 as far as progression goes. They want to focus on endgame pve and pvp, as thats where everyone will be eventually and they will need to keep them playing past progression, however all of the focus on the endgame makes the progression part of the game seem like crap in comparison. Also they obviously focus far less time on it.
So you have people who want X class at endgame but now have to endure another repeate trip to endgame, it gets boring so they look for any and all ways to circumvent it via powerleveling ect, even missing content on purpose due to it being a time waster.
Bottom line is that people no longer want a fun trip to endgame, or an endgame where reaching it is meaningful and an accomplishment, the only few games that have such a strategy do so by incredibly low xp gains and few if any quests (asian grinders) which only fuels the hatred for the trip to endgame.
I play darkfall, which doesnt have a specific "endgame" however you wouldnt know from talking to people in game whos only objective is to get there asap. The games endured multiple skill gain increases, an off line skilling system, and new expansion will further make it easier to progress. This is something i dislike, i really enjoy the trip, especially since its a sandbox in perticulair.
I fear we are only a few major mmo releases away from a static level gear based mmorpg being a hit. Think FPS death matches, arenas, raids and no levels.
I remember when MMORPGs first started being populair, right around anarchy online, i was estatic i could now play the RPG games i loved but there was no "finished" part of the game, it was ever expanding. The whole reason i started paying to play was that i was sick of beating RPG's in a few weeks then having to look for a new one with a longer game involved.
I really believe that the only true game progression left is going to be found in sandboxes, specifically ones with no skill caps, where you can make it with melee then decide to start leveling another "class" within the same character. Darkfall has that but failed in where you can be the best at everything all at the same time, they need to restrict what you can use during a battle.
Or...make a slower, harder levelling game and give people options at character creation: beginner buffs for those who want it easier and exp buffs for those who are only interested in the endgame. Everybody's happy.
Well you guys get the idea. As far MMO goes right now I'm in trouble. It's really not these games fault. It's my play style that is'nt being met. I HATE gear grinding..faction grinding..LvL grinding. I hate games that tell me that if I don't have certain gear me toon stinks. Or games that say we have a wide assortmant of trees and specs you can choose from then turns around at the end of the game and says...Oh we sorry but only a few builds are actually any good.
People have differnt play styles. That's just a fact of life. Lots of people love these games. I will hold out for SW:ToR. Then probably GW2.
Posting here will not change peoples opinion on anything. The younger players will love the give it to me now games. The older players like myself <the UO Generation> want more than gear and faction to run the game.
But I love reading these post makes me laugh..then I cry...then I realize I really don't give a.........SHEEP !!!
Jymm Byuu Playing : Blood Bowl. Waiting for 2. Holding breath for Archeage and EQN.
This is what made old games so great. MMOs are all about the journey, not the destination. DAoC was extremely endgame oriented, but it still took you forever to get to 50. I can still remember the second I got my first level 50. I literally ran around the house screaming lol (like a soccer score XD). Now you get to level cap and you want to move on to the next game (except Rift and lotro for me).
I wouldn't say DAOC was extremely endgame oriented. It's true that your raids, ML's, Champion Levels and etc was at endgame and that the major RVR battles took place in the Frontiers, but people enjoyed grouping up and leveling up. Battlegrounds were also a blast, as were the Epic Quest lines. You could also enter the Frontiers at any level and participate, although once everyone was lvl 50, a lower level in the frontiers was just fodder. But the enemy didn't know that since your level didn't show.
Well you guys get the idea. As far MMO goes right now I'm in trouble. It's really not these games fault. It's my play style that is'nt being met. I HATE gear grinding..faction grinding..LvL grinding. I hate games that tell me that if I don't have certain gear me toon stinks. Or games that say we have a wide assortmant of trees and specs you can choose from then turns around at the end of the game and says...Oh we sorry but only a few builds are actually any good.
People have differnt play styles. That's just a fact of life. Lots of people love these games. I will hold out for SW:ToR. Then probably GW2.
Posting here will not change peoples opinion on anything. The younger players will love the give it to me now games. The older players like myself want more than gear and faction to run the game.
But I love reading these post makes me laugh..then I cry...then I realize I really don't give a.........SHEEP !!!
What is your playstyle then? Last I checked, UO required you to grind skills which is no different than grinding levels.
It's very much an RPG thing to have your characters ability based on what level you are and what kind of gear you're wearing.
I made an account just to post my 2 cents on this issue. I started playing MMO's way too young and they were called MUDS then and they were text based. I went through UO, and EQ, and pretty much everything in between until WOW. WOW was great and in Vanilla it was very much about the journey. Thats the thing about EQ and UO too, they were also about the journey. I think partly it was because MMO's were new. I played on Tallon Zek in EQ and was a member of a PVP guild and spent a good year at level 37-39 just pvping. Before there was level caps on items and every item was non-tradable once it was equipped you really didnt care too much about not being the highest level because you still felt like what you did mattered. You could have better equipment than someone a few levels higher than you. Or for example in Shadowbane you could compete with someone a few levels higher than you (although if it took longer than a week to max level you probably are a casual gamer). I think the problem with games now is that theyre so focused on balancing, keeping twinks out etc...that they made it so level is all that matters. Why would you want to spend a ton of time exploring dungeons and doing all the 20-mid 30 dungeons in WOW, when you can solo level faster and all those un-tradable items are obsolete when you can start doing SM-Cath? Thats just an example, but thats how I view it.
In EQ and UO it felt like you werent wasting your time spending time exploring and going through the game. 1. There werent all the guides and walk throughs. There was no thottbot so you really didnt know what was over the next hill. Also there wasnt a question mark on the map to tell you which guy had a cool quest. 2. Hunting things that dropped anything could still be rewarding. Heck I remember when Kunark came out and everyone and their mother wanted a forest loop. The giants who dropped them only were like level 35 or so and a group of 30's could take them out. So a level 30 could be trading items with a level 50 etc... Again you didnt feel worthless.
With all the balancing and EZ modes in these games now its totally about getting max level or getting to a level where you can exploit PVP. I dont care how well I can play my character or what gear I have put together, even in vanilla when BGs first came out, my level 51 would get crushed by any 60. If games want a long grind, then make the grind immersive where you are apart of the world and can participate in it. I am not saying have no reward for leveling, but don't make it so everything a player does from level 1 to max level is meaningless once they hit max level and start raiding.
Heck, I remember playing a text-based game called Terris. It was fun as hell and I can't even remember what max levels were or anything like that, but I do remember that from the moment you figured out what was going on you were in the game. You were apart of the world. You had a role in the economy. I hate all the elitists who act like these MMORPG's are fine wines needed to be savored. Heck, I will savor a game if you give me a reason to. If everything I do becomes obsolete...id rather spend my time doing things that either make me more skilled or my character better. 99% of quests these days are just tasks anyways (kill x or bring Y to Z).
Oh and anyone who complains about grinding is probably not a fan of MMORPG's. I dont get it, why not just play LOL if you are a fan of battling or play like Second Life or something if its the social aspect. MMORPG's need some kind of grind, something to work for and that will always be there because 1. theres a grind in real life. Everything requires some sort of grind. 2. Without the time and effort put in, rewards would feel cheap. Im not saying you need level grinds. But you need something that should be somewhat fun somewhat work, but should inevitably have a pay off. My point is, make my grind have a payoff other than hitting max level and I'll spend more time on it. If every bit of equipment from 1 to max level is worthless at max level and the money is a fraction of what i get there and I can only compete at max level...then my grind is going to be "how fast can I get max level."
They could really learn from the extra credits article on pacing. I mean most MMOs do NOT work the way things typically do. A great book, a great movie, etc all have pacing elements in common...
In essence a MMO should have periods of fast levelling and periods of slow levelling -- EQ1 with the levels that took extra time followed by levels where the death penalty was tripled kind of had it right...
---
Personally I would like to see major raid periods at several places in the game... Very long levels scattered amongst shorter levels in a non-linear curve.
Maybe the monsters get MUCH harder from level 19 to level 20. You need to do raids and rough content of level 19 to be able to handle level 20 stuff.
Major raid content might be at 20th, 33rd, 45th, and 55th as well as at endgame.
this is not a bad idea actually why should only max level toons have raids i think if you mix hell levels back in with beginning and level raids it woul dbe great along with a more intelligent AI and PQ's more important GM ran PQ's would bring alot more excitment to the leveling processing. I love gm events and searching and exploring is certainly encouraged when these are used. if they were to be introduced though the raids pq's and events should challenge the players.
People expects to be able to play a game 6-8 hours a day and not run out of content in 1-2 month is just plain silly, and unhealthy to a certain extent.
People keep asking for games that will take forever to finish, I need to able to go here, there over the mountains and below the water. Do people honestly know how many polygons and collision checks will that take?
Immersion is about being 'in the moment', not to be able to waste your life ingame everyday living out a virtual life, sure you will role play and all, but most of your socialisation ingame is based from one real person to another real person, not an ingame character to another. Ultimately, most MMORPG is designed to be a game, not a virtual service. A game needs an ending to be great, just like another other story.
Journey is important, but so is the ending.
You completly missed what we are all saying. No one is saying the end isnt important. We are also not saying that we expect to play 8 hours a day. What we are saying is that the middle and beginning of the game should feel just as important and fun as the end. I shouldn't feel like they just threw some crap together to make the game take more time. And there have been games where you can go everywhere you can see, its not really that big of an issue with todays capabilities.
Immersion is also about making a world believable and fun, which is exactly what many mmos dont do. Its possible for a game to have a lot of content, or at least make the middle of the road fun without inhumane amounts of work. But if a games only focus is on the end game, then thats usually going to be the only fun part because they ignored the rest.
Well I haven't read every single post in this thread, but a lot of the people here are actually comparing the length of the 'beginning and middle', if leveling only takes 50 hours of gameplay, but it is a lot more fun than 200+ to level, I don't see the point of going the longer route. Thats what I was trying to get to in my post, people thinks if the leveling is longer, it makes it more important or special. It isn't about the quantity but the quality.
Also lengthen the leveling progress isn't going to resolve anything, there is a lot more factors to alter before you can make a longer journey enjoyable.
Get rid of levels, it works for single player RPG, it doesn't work for MMORPG. This limits the content each players can play, so theoretically, with levels, players have 1-2 zones that they are suitable to play in, without levels, everything is playable get go, stupid limitations are stupid. Sure it has advantages, but no one has try making a RPG without levels, or non-number oriented.
Dice roll combat, it is also stupid to see combat animations hit but instead dodged. It isn't about aiming or 'twitching', but about dodging and blocking. There is a lot of ways to make action combat while retain auto target with no dice roll hitting. Gear grinding is also the manifestation of dice roll combat, to beat the odds. To get higher dodge? Get that shiny new piece of metal. Older players often said negative things about action combat, saying it isn't the original pen and paper or what not, they are for ADHD, why not just go back to playing pen and paper, I see people playing at a hobby shop sometimes, it isn't die by any means.
Holding onto traditions, its time to break out of the mold. Did iPhone become successful because it tries to becomes its predecessors? A game needs to find its personality to appeal to players. Not every single MMO has to be a RPG, just like not all online games are shooter, not all single player games are linear action games.
In conclusion, you can't 'fix' the enjoyability of a game by simply putting more content into the progress. MMO is built by mechanics over another mechanics, they work together to provide a unique experience, as with all games. To make a game enjoyable, or different from WoW, a lot needs to be changed, not just one or two mechanics, an overhaul is very much needed.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
The point is that the longer route can be more fun and satisfying if done right. the other point that myself and few others have made are MMORPG's should feel like an investment, if you only play the game for a total of 3 or 4 months before you have moved on to the next thing then that game has failed. Here are a few things that have dwindled or disappeared over time that should still be here.
1. Support classes - honestly while they were not the top wanted class there was enough people playing them to warrant keeping them around.
2. Grind - yes i know its seems weird that i say this but MMO's need grind, they do, no if and or buts. If you're that impatient than MMO's arent for you. you have to keeping doing things to get better at them but the problem is MMO just need to make it so that you get in a pace and next thing you know you dont even realize your doing it.
3. GM events - these never took extremely long to do but they were fun and the rewards were about spot on. it would be awesome to be walking along and bam gnome monk mob. but gnomes cant be mobs in this game what is going on here and then pursueing to find out and uncovering the event was great.
4. AA's - a couple games still have these but not many modern MMO's do, they were great ways to keep playing your toon no matter what level to gain extra stats and abilities and too keep progressing even if you max out. further more you could pick and prioritize how you got them too.
5. Hell levels - yes hell levels need to come back as well . these would give you the chance to explore more look for more content in different places.
6. Forced grouping - not all the times but there should be times when you just have to group. if your just going run dungoens and raid in the end game anyways with other people then its just to your benefit to learn how to use your class abilities beforehand. that was the half the purpose of it anyways. but you make connections and learn about people and their classes as well. i know people always go well i dont want to be forced because i only go so much time, then my answer is MMO's are about time they want your time as much as possible. if you have a family and work then concentrate on those first and play when you got time. just plan to get by your roadblocks on the weekend or something.
Comments
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Themparks are in a catch 22 as far as progression goes. They want to focus on endgame pve and pvp, as thats where everyone will be eventually and they will need to keep them playing past progression, however all of the focus on the endgame makes the progression part of the game seem like crap in comparison. Also they obviously focus far less time on it.
So you have people who want X class at endgame but now have to endure another repeate trip to endgame, it gets boring so they look for any and all ways to circumvent it via powerleveling ect, even missing content on purpose due to it being a time waster.
Bottom line is that people no longer want a fun trip to endgame, or an endgame where reaching it is meaningful and an accomplishment, the only few games that have such a strategy do so by incredibly low xp gains and few if any quests (asian grinders) which only fuels the hatred for the trip to endgame.
I play darkfall, which doesnt have a specific "endgame" however you wouldnt know from talking to people in game whos only objective is to get there asap. The games endured multiple skill gain increases, an off line skilling system, and new expansion will further make it easier to progress. This is something i dislike, i really enjoy the trip, especially since its a sandbox in perticulair.
I fear we are only a few major mmo releases away from a static level gear based mmorpg being a hit. Think FPS death matches, arenas, raids and no levels.
I remember when MMORPGs first started being populair, right around anarchy online, i was estatic i could now play the RPG games i loved but there was no "finished" part of the game, it was ever expanding. The whole reason i started paying to play was that i was sick of beating RPG's in a few weeks then having to look for a new one with a longer game involved.
I really believe that the only true game progression left is going to be found in sandboxes, specifically ones with no skill caps, where you can make it with melee then decide to start leveling another "class" within the same character. Darkfall has that but failed in where you can be the best at everything all at the same time, they need to restrict what you can use during a battle.
Yeah, it is true. When the games focus more on endgame the players put more energy to get there fast and so on.
I think MMOs needs to update the mechanics and content so all the content feels important, not just the endgame.
This is exactly the problem with games today. Its so damn easy to hit level cap. The most fun I have had in an MMO was playing the original EQ with friends just running around leveling doing quests and exploring. It took us a long time to hit level cap and the reason we had so much fun is because even though it took so long to reach the level no one really cared. The journey to the level cap was fun. All the current games today focus so much on end game that the rest of their content is complete crap.
I'm playing AoC and I will admit leveling in that game is not fun at all, but the game did get very fun once I hit cap...the only reason I actually made it to cap was there was nothing else out there that even interested me.
lol, i play a korean mmo and i have gained 4 levels in the past 5 months ( played 700 hours worth)
i can do end game stuff but i am not the most useful person.
and guess what i'll still be playing it until i see how the new mmos that come out are like
There was a saying in old SWG... "Only the unemployed are Jedi." That's how I liked my games. Endgame wasn't a race it was a reward for hard work, and dilligence.
Can you imagine these upstarts playing Pen and Paper D&D...
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
With 176 answers it appears most do not agree with the OP. Interesting. The challenge for a game seems to be making all areas of the journey meaningful. With many MMOs it is said "the game really begins at 30" or "it's the endgame where this MMO really shines".
Screw that! If the fun starts at endgame then start me at endgame and don't make me jump through your trash levels. We've all played them. After leaving the starter areas and after leaving your 1st major zone, the originality peters out and the grind sets in. Formula quest with identikit mobs with skant nod to the lore. You've got some really cool abilities but you have a look at the end of you skill tree and realize that it's just 1-3% boosts and weaksauce intermediates until you hit the bigtime. Get your pick axe out! Repeat those dailys! Gring! Grind! GRIND!
I just want to feel rewarded for taking the time to actually explore and not rush to the endgame graveyard where the raid zombies prowl. I want a game that I can increase my characters depth as well as it's power. I want to make an original contribution when I craft, not just cloned gear with increased stats. Make the journey meaningful.
Please?
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
People expects to be able to play a game 6-8 hours a day and not run out of content in 1-2 month is just plain silly, and unhealthy to a certain extent.
People keep asking for games that will take forever to finish, I need to able to go here, there over the mountains and below the water. Do people honestly know how many polygons and collision checks will that take?
Immersion is about being 'in the moment', not to be able to waste your life ingame everyday living out a virtual life, sure you will role play and all, but most of your socialisation ingame is based from one real person to another real person, not an ingame character to another. Ultimately, most MMORPG is designed to be a game, not a virtual service. A game needs an ending to be great, just like another other story.
Journey is important, but so is the ending.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
You completly missed what we are all saying. No one is saying the end isnt important. We are also not saying that we expect to play 8 hours a day. What we are saying is that the middle and beginning of the game should feel just as important and fun as the end. I shouldn't feel like they just threw some crap together to make the game take more time. And there have been games where you can go everywhere you can see, its not really that big of an issue with todays capabilities.
Immersion is also about making a world believable and fun, which is exactly what many mmos dont do. Its possible for a game to have a lot of content, or at least make the middle of the road fun without inhumane amounts of work. But if a games only focus is on the end game, then thats usually going to be the only fun part because they ignored the rest.
That basically explains it. MMORPGs are no longer for the old PnP RPGers...in general.
Companies and players are still using the same term - but the genre has changed.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
So he thinks it's boring, you think it's boring, but you think games should make it a huge part of the game?
Your "character's life journey" is all his actions. His journey doesn't magically stop, just because he stops leveling.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Leveling is a reflection of character progression. Outside of games with AA, then at level cap - your character is no longer progressing.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
This is what made old games so great. MMOs are all about the journey, not the destination. DAoC was extremely endgame oriented, but it still took you forever to get to 50. I can still remember the second I got my first level 50. I literally ran around the house screaming lol (like a soccer score XD). Now you get to level cap and you want to move on to the next game (except Rift and lotro for me).
Or...make a slower, harder levelling game and give people options at character creation: beginner buffs for those who want it easier and exp buffs for those who are only interested in the endgame. Everybody's happy.
To be honest, why do we even need Levels? its a old concept from Table Top. Lets get rid of it
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Hate WoW
Dislike RIFT
Don't car for AION
EQ1 and 2 make me cry
LoTRo makes me sad
City of Heros..BAH
Well you guys get the idea. As far MMO goes right now I'm in trouble. It's really not these games fault. It's my play style that is'nt being met. I HATE gear grinding..faction grinding..LvL grinding. I hate games that tell me that if I don't have certain gear me toon stinks. Or games that say we have a wide assortmant of trees and specs you can choose from then turns around at the end of the game and says...Oh we sorry but only a few builds are actually any good.
People have differnt play styles. That's just a fact of life. Lots of people love these games. I will hold out for SW:ToR. Then probably GW2.
Posting here will not change peoples opinion on anything. The younger players will love the give it to me now games. The older players like myself <the UO Generation> want more than gear and faction to run the game.
But I love reading these post
makes me laugh..then I cry...then I realize I really don't give a.........SHEEP !!!
Jymm Byuu
Playing : Blood Bowl. Waiting for 2. Holding breath for Archeage and EQN.
I wouldn't say DAOC was extremely endgame oriented. It's true that your raids, ML's, Champion Levels and etc was at endgame and that the major RVR battles took place in the Frontiers, but people enjoyed grouping up and leveling up. Battlegrounds were also a blast, as were the Epic Quest lines. You could also enter the Frontiers at any level and participate, although once everyone was lvl 50, a lower level in the frontiers was just fodder. But the enemy didn't know that since your level didn't show.
What is your playstyle then? Last I checked, UO required you to grind skills which is no different than grinding levels.
It's very much an RPG thing to have your characters ability based on what level you are and what kind of gear you're wearing.
I made an account just to post my 2 cents on this issue. I started playing MMO's way too young and they were called MUDS then and they were text based. I went through UO, and EQ, and pretty much everything in between until WOW. WOW was great and in Vanilla it was very much about the journey. Thats the thing about EQ and UO too, they were also about the journey. I think partly it was because MMO's were new. I played on Tallon Zek in EQ and was a member of a PVP guild and spent a good year at level 37-39 just pvping. Before there was level caps on items and every item was non-tradable once it was equipped you really didnt care too much about not being the highest level because you still felt like what you did mattered. You could have better equipment than someone a few levels higher than you. Or for example in Shadowbane you could compete with someone a few levels higher than you (although if it took longer than a week to max level you probably are a casual gamer). I think the problem with games now is that theyre so focused on balancing, keeping twinks out etc...that they made it so level is all that matters. Why would you want to spend a ton of time exploring dungeons and doing all the 20-mid 30 dungeons in WOW, when you can solo level faster and all those un-tradable items are obsolete when you can start doing SM-Cath? Thats just an example, but thats how I view it.
In EQ and UO it felt like you werent wasting your time spending time exploring and going through the game. 1. There werent all the guides and walk throughs. There was no thottbot so you really didnt know what was over the next hill. Also there wasnt a question mark on the map to tell you which guy had a cool quest. 2. Hunting things that dropped anything could still be rewarding. Heck I remember when Kunark came out and everyone and their mother wanted a forest loop. The giants who dropped them only were like level 35 or so and a group of 30's could take them out. So a level 30 could be trading items with a level 50 etc... Again you didnt feel worthless.
With all the balancing and EZ modes in these games now its totally about getting max level or getting to a level where you can exploit PVP. I dont care how well I can play my character or what gear I have put together, even in vanilla when BGs first came out, my level 51 would get crushed by any 60. If games want a long grind, then make the grind immersive where you are apart of the world and can participate in it. I am not saying have no reward for leveling, but don't make it so everything a player does from level 1 to max level is meaningless once they hit max level and start raiding.
Heck, I remember playing a text-based game called Terris. It was fun as hell and I can't even remember what max levels were or anything like that, but I do remember that from the moment you figured out what was going on you were in the game. You were apart of the world. You had a role in the economy. I hate all the elitists who act like these MMORPG's are fine wines needed to be savored. Heck, I will savor a game if you give me a reason to. If everything I do becomes obsolete...id rather spend my time doing things that either make me more skilled or my character better. 99% of quests these days are just tasks anyways (kill x or bring Y to Z).
Oh and anyone who complains about grinding is probably not a fan of MMORPG's. I dont get it, why not just play LOL if you are a fan of battling or play like Second Life or something if its the social aspect. MMORPG's need some kind of grind, something to work for and that will always be there because 1. theres a grind in real life. Everything requires some sort of grind. 2. Without the time and effort put in, rewards would feel cheap. Im not saying you need level grinds. But you need something that should be somewhat fun somewhat work, but should inevitably have a pay off. My point is, make my grind have a payoff other than hitting max level and I'll spend more time on it. If every bit of equipment from 1 to max level is worthless at max level and the money is a fraction of what i get there and I can only compete at max level...then my grind is going to be "how fast can I get max level."
They could really learn from the extra credits article on pacing. I mean most MMOs do NOT work the way things typically do. A great book, a great movie, etc all have pacing elements in common...
In essence a MMO should have periods of fast levelling and periods of slow levelling -- EQ1 with the levels that took extra time followed by levels where the death penalty was tripled kind of had it right...
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Personally I would like to see major raid periods at several places in the game... Very long levels scattered amongst shorter levels in a non-linear curve.
Maybe the monsters get MUCH harder from level 19 to level 20. You need to do raids and rough content of level 19 to be able to handle level 20 stuff.
Major raid content might be at 20th, 33rd, 45th, and 55th as well as at endgame.
this is not a bad idea actually why should only max level toons have raids i think if you mix hell levels back in with beginning and level raids it woul dbe great along with a more intelligent AI and PQ's more important GM ran PQ's would bring alot more excitment to the leveling processing. I love gm events and searching and exploring is certainly encouraged when these are used. if they were to be introduced though the raids pq's and events should challenge the players.
Well I haven't read every single post in this thread, but a lot of the people here are actually comparing the length of the 'beginning and middle', if leveling only takes 50 hours of gameplay, but it is a lot more fun than 200+ to level, I don't see the point of going the longer route. Thats what I was trying to get to in my post, people thinks if the leveling is longer, it makes it more important or special. It isn't about the quantity but the quality.
Also lengthen the leveling progress isn't going to resolve anything, there is a lot more factors to alter before you can make a longer journey enjoyable.
Get rid of levels, it works for single player RPG, it doesn't work for MMORPG. This limits the content each players can play, so theoretically, with levels, players have 1-2 zones that they are suitable to play in, without levels, everything is playable get go, stupid limitations are stupid. Sure it has advantages, but no one has try making a RPG without levels, or non-number oriented.
Dice roll combat, it is also stupid to see combat animations hit but instead dodged. It isn't about aiming or 'twitching', but about dodging and blocking. There is a lot of ways to make action combat while retain auto target with no dice roll hitting. Gear grinding is also the manifestation of dice roll combat, to beat the odds. To get higher dodge? Get that shiny new piece of metal. Older players often said negative things about action combat, saying it isn't the original pen and paper or what not, they are for ADHD, why not just go back to playing pen and paper, I see people playing at a hobby shop sometimes, it isn't die by any means.
Holding onto traditions, its time to break out of the mold. Did iPhone become successful because it tries to becomes its predecessors? A game needs to find its personality to appeal to players. Not every single MMO has to be a RPG, just like not all online games are shooter, not all single player games are linear action games.
In conclusion, you can't 'fix' the enjoyability of a game by simply putting more content into the progress. MMO is built by mechanics over another mechanics, they work together to provide a unique experience, as with all games. To make a game enjoyable, or different from WoW, a lot needs to be changed, not just one or two mechanics, an overhaul is very much needed.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
The point is that the longer route can be more fun and satisfying if done right. the other point that myself and few others have made are MMORPG's should feel like an investment, if you only play the game for a total of 3 or 4 months before you have moved on to the next thing then that game has failed. Here are a few things that have dwindled or disappeared over time that should still be here.
1. Support classes - honestly while they were not the top wanted class there was enough people playing them to warrant keeping them around.
2. Grind - yes i know its seems weird that i say this but MMO's need grind, they do, no if and or buts. If you're that impatient than MMO's arent for you. you have to keeping doing things to get better at them but the problem is MMO just need to make it so that you get in a pace and next thing you know you dont even realize your doing it.
3. GM events - these never took extremely long to do but they were fun and the rewards were about spot on. it would be awesome to be walking along and bam gnome monk mob. but gnomes cant be mobs in this game what is going on here and then pursueing to find out and uncovering the event was great.
4. AA's - a couple games still have these but not many modern MMO's do, they were great ways to keep playing your toon no matter what level to gain extra stats and abilities and too keep progressing even if you max out. further more you could pick and prioritize how you got them too.
5. Hell levels - yes hell levels need to come back as well . these would give you the chance to explore more look for more content in different places.
6. Forced grouping - not all the times but there should be times when you just have to group. if your just going run dungoens and raid in the end game anyways with other people then its just to your benefit to learn how to use your class abilities beforehand. that was the half the purpose of it anyways. but you make connections and learn about people and their classes as well. i know people always go well i dont want to be forced because i only go so much time, then my answer is MMO's are about time they want your time as much as possible. if you have a family and work then concentrate on those first and play when you got time. just plan to get by your roadblocks on the weekend or something.