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Legal foundation SWTOR forcing subscription on people

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  • SupersoupsSupersoups Member Posts: 1,004

    Originally posted by Requiamer

    The thing is the payement method is not required, as stated the game and the subscription is already payed at least for a month. It is required because some mmo company force you to do so, thats the only reason.

    It is hard to believe that in this day and age people don't even have bank accounts or debit cards to open a paypal account. Hell you don't even need a debit card. This is like making mountain out of a mole.

    image

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren Member Posts: 295

    It says on the box you need a cc, or game card, internet, and a paid sub to play the game., not a cc or paid sub , but a cc and a sub.  As such you were made aware that you were going to need to place in a cc/ game card, as well as have a paid sub to play the game, your day in court would be laughed out of the courtroom wihtout questions. You buy the box to gain access to the game via the programs inside it, but you pay 15 dallors for the right to play the game as well as experince the content as it is released, as well as being given one month of game time (free or not) using the programs and such they created,. Don't like it then learn to pay attention to the box, as well as move along to your f2p or b2p games over whining about having to place a cc on your account that you were told about.

  • UronksurUronksur Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Originally posted by Requiamer

    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


     

    Yup, read what's printed on the fricking box

     

    "...AND PAID SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED TO PLAY GAME. 30-DAY SUBSCRIPTION INCLUDED WITH PURCHASE."

     

    Perfectly clear, isn't it ?

    I mean, c'mon, nobody could misunderstand that could they ?



    I'm glad I could clear your confusion up for you.

    Customer: "I have a 30-day subscription included with my purchase, but I can't play the game, whazzup ?"

    Service: "Sir, you need a PAID subscription to play SWTOR. It says so clearly on the box."

    Customer: "Oh okay, so I have to pay and then I get a free 30-days added ?"

    Service: "No sir, you have to agree to pay in future, then you can start playing immediately. But you can cancel that agreement at any time in the first 30 days."

    Customer: "So I can start playing without having actually paid for a subscription ?"

    Service: "Yes, as long as you agree to pay in future."

    Customer: "So "paid subscription required to play game" is not literally true then ?"

    Service: "It's complicated... "



    It's pretty simple. If the concept that you are required to have a valid method of payment on file to play the game is too complicated for some people to understand, that's unfortunate, but I guess IQ is a bell curve distribution.



    The thing is the payement method is not required, as stated the game and the subscription is already payed at least for a month. It is required because some mmo company force you to do so, thats the only reason.

    And? What's the problem?

  • SupersoupsSupersoups Member Posts: 1,004

    Originally posted by Uronksur

    Originally posted by Requiamer


    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


     

    Yup, read what's printed on the fricking box

     

    "...AND PAID SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED TO PLAY GAME. 30-DAY SUBSCRIPTION INCLUDED WITH PURCHASE."

     

    Perfectly clear, isn't it ?

    I mean, c'mon, nobody could misunderstand that could they ?



    I'm glad I could clear your confusion up for you.

    Customer: "I have a 30-day subscription included with my purchase, but I can't play the game, whazzup ?"

    Service: "Sir, you need a PAID subscription to play SWTOR. It says so clearly on the box."

    Customer: "Oh okay, so I have to pay and then I get a free 30-days added ?"

    Service: "No sir, you have to agree to pay in future, then you can start playing immediately. But you can cancel that agreement at any time in the first 30 days."

    Customer: "So I can start playing without having actually paid for a subscription ?"

    Service: "Yes, as long as you agree to pay in future."

    Customer: "So "paid subscription required to play game" is not literally true then ?"

    Service: "It's complicated... "



    It's pretty simple. If the concept that you are required to have a valid method of payment on file to play the game is too complicated for some people to understand, that's unfortunate, but I guess IQ is a bell curve distribution.



    The thing is the payement method is not required, as stated the game and the subscription is already payed at least for a month. It is required because some mmo company force you to do so, thats the only reason.

    And? What's the problem?

    Either he doesn't have one or can't afford one, that is my guess.

    image

  • UronksurUronksur Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Originally posted by Supersoups

    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by Requiamer


    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


     

    Yup, read what's printed on the fricking box

     

    "...AND PAID SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED TO PLAY GAME. 30-DAY SUBSCRIPTION INCLUDED WITH PURCHASE."

     

    Perfectly clear, isn't it ?

    I mean, c'mon, nobody could misunderstand that could they ?



    I'm glad I could clear your confusion up for you.

    Customer: "I have a 30-day subscription included with my purchase, but I can't play the game, whazzup ?"

    Service: "Sir, you need a PAID subscription to play SWTOR. It says so clearly on the box."

    Customer: "Oh okay, so I have to pay and then I get a free 30-days added ?"

    Service: "No sir, you have to agree to pay in future, then you can start playing immediately. But you can cancel that agreement at any time in the first 30 days."

    Customer: "So I can start playing without having actually paid for a subscription ?"

    Service: "Yes, as long as you agree to pay in future."

    Customer: "So "paid subscription required to play game" is not literally true then ?"

    Service: "It's complicated... "



    It's pretty simple. If the concept that you are required to have a valid method of payment on file to play the game is too complicated for some people to understand, that's unfortunate, but I guess IQ is a bell curve distribution.



    The thing is the payement method is not required, as stated the game and the subscription is already payed at least for a month. It is required because some mmo company force you to do so, thats the only reason.

    And? What's the problem?

    Either he doesn't have one or can't afford one, that is my guess.

    I have extraordinarily little sympathy for the first, and for the second, if he is in that situation he doesn't have much business as a fiscally responsible adult playing video games anyways... sooo....

  • JimyHumuHumuJimyHumuHumu Member UncommonPosts: 251

     I love it, just love it how ignorant some of people are.

     

    Yes, OP, you should get a cc, activate your sub, and cancel your sub right away.

     

    Becase thats the right thing to do, and because its also the only logical thing to do.

    Its also called common sense, by many posters here, because activating and then deactivating same thing 1 min after, is nothing but pure logic. And everyone, even people new to mmos, should expect it. Right? 

     

    tldr: just use your logic before making topics like this one.

    ps : i also agree with most of people here, we should not question the way EA and other big companies do business. Whats good for them, is good for us. Hence, bad bad op, shame on you.

     

    Even more, id llike to see any topic questioning EA/SOE (and others) way of doing business being closed on sight, as such a discussion should not be tolerated. Because EA loves you all.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by Uronksur

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


     

    Customer: "I have a 30-day subscription included with my purchase, but I can't play the game, whazzup ?"

    Service: "Sir, you need a PAID subscription to play SWTOR. It says so clearly on the box."

    Customer: "Oh okay, so I have to pay and then I get a free 30-days added ?"

    Service: "No sir, you have to agree to pay in future, then you can start playing immediately. But you can cancel that agreement at any time in the first 30 days."

    Customer: "So I can start playing without having actually paid for a subscription ?"

    Service: "Yes, as long as you agree to pay in future."

    Customer: "So "paid subscription required to play game" is not literally true then ?"

    Service: "It's complicated... "



    It's pretty simple. If the concept that you are required to have a valid method of payment on file to play the game is too complicated for some people to understand, that's unfortunate, but I guess IQ is a bell curve distribution.

    Indeed it is, and 50% of the playerbase lies south of the center line.

    GTC is a valid payment option by definition. The system will reject any entered GTC code that is not valid. Yet "promising to pay using a GTC" is not acceptable, whereas "promising to pay using a CC" is perfectly acceptable.

    Why the descrimination ?

  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034



    Originally posted by Supersoups


    Originally posted by Requiamer


    The thing is the payement method is not required, as stated the game and the subscription is already payed at least for a month. It is required because some mmo company force you to do so, thats the only reason.

    It is hard to believe that in this day and age people don't even have bank accounts or debit cards to open a paypal account. Hell you don't even need a debit card. This is like making mountain out of a mole.

    What is even more unbelievable is that some people refuse to defend their own rights, and will accept any fishy commercial trick on their behalf, and more so explain to the world how stupid you are to refuse those practice.

    Yes what you say is clear, but its a question of principle. Why should you let a company access your bank account for something you already payed, this make no sense. It is clear those company have no technical backup for such practice, they do it just because they know a lot of people will pay sub even though they stop playing the game. The concept "pay for what you play" isn't something new to mmo, and such a model is a goal for many companies because it is fair and it is asked by a lot consumers (not all as it seam). Sure it might not look much for you if you forget to cancel a sub for few month, but if you look globally you'll understand why they do that on your behalf, and the mole do look as a mountain from that point of view.

    Now i'm kind of fed up being a Saint Maritain, so i'll leave you for today.

  • UronksurUronksur Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Originally posted by Uronksur


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


     

    Customer: "I have a 30-day subscription included with my purchase, but I can't play the game, whazzup ?"

    Service: "Sir, you need a PAID subscription to play SWTOR. It says so clearly on the box."

    Customer: "Oh okay, so I have to pay and then I get a free 30-days added ?"

    Service: "No sir, you have to agree to pay in future, then you can start playing immediately. But you can cancel that agreement at any time in the first 30 days."

    Customer: "So I can start playing without having actually paid for a subscription ?"

    Service: "Yes, as long as you agree to pay in future."

    Customer: "So "paid subscription required to play game" is not literally true then ?"

    Service: "It's complicated... "



    It's pretty simple. If the concept that you are required to have a valid method of payment on file to play the game is too complicated for some people to understand, that's unfortunate, but I guess IQ is a bell curve distribution.

    Indeed it is, and 50% of the playerbase lies south of the center line.

    GTC is a valid payment option by definition. The system will reject any entered GTC code that is not valid. Yet "promising to pay using a GTC" is not acceptable, whereas "promising to pay using a CC" is perfectly acceptable.

    Why the descrimination ?

    Because the vast majority of EA's customers are people who have at least enough money to maintain a checking account with a debit card. Nobody is forcing you to use GTC's. If you find them inconvienient, don't use them.

  • UronksurUronksur Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Originally posted by Requiamer

     






    Originally posted by Supersoups






    Originally posted by Requiamer








    The thing is the payement method is not required, as stated the game and the subscription is already payed at least for a month. It is required because some mmo company force you to do so, thats the only reason.








    It is hard to believe that in this day and age people don't even have bank accounts or debit cards to open a paypal account. Hell you don't even need a debit card. This is like making mountain out of a mole.



     

    What is even more unbelievable is that some people refuse to defend their own rights, and will accept any fishy commercial trick on their behalf, and more so explain to the world how stupid you are to refuse those practice.

    Yes what you say is clear, but its a question of principle. Why should you let a company access your bank account for something you already payed, this make no sense

    Because this is a subscription game. If you go here http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367 there is a little info box at the top that says "Pay type: Subscription". That means the publisher is going to be constantly accessing your bank account. If you find that disturbing, get a credit card.

  • TalinTalin Member UncommonPosts: 923

    I find the OP's lack of faith... disturbing.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Easy solution, go buy a pre-paid CC, put 20 bucks on it, sub to TOR wait a few days, take that card buy some pizza and some beer, play TOR. If you decide you want to continue your sub, in 30 days load at least 15 bucks on to the card.

    If you're afraid of giving a CC number or even owning one, this is your best option. The only money there is what you decide to put there, use it for TOR or any other MMO you may play.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Why the descrimination ?

    Because it is not discrimination.

    1) Southerns hemisphere makes 50% of the globe, not EAs playerbase.
    2) Standard payment method for internet services is CC. You want to use some other, optional method? Sure, you have top accept that it might not work same way as CC because it - non-standard payment method.


    You are not discriminated. It is your issue that you are not able for whatever reason meet standards of internet service payments. EA offered you hand with GTC and their 'limited' functionality.

    Yeah indeed evil EA, the bastards should not support GTC at all, I guess.


    People will complain just about anything...

  • plescureplescure Member UncommonPosts: 397

    i have never played a P2P mmo where they dont ask for your credit card details when you set up your subscrition account. they all do it. whats the problem! if you have no intention of playing after your initial 30 days you just cancel your account before your payment is due! its hardly rocket science.

    If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Requiamer

    Why should you let a company access your bank account for something you already payed, this make no sense.

    In order to access the service, you need active subscriber status.
    In order to gain active subscriber status, you need valid payment method to be processed.


    Same procedure takes place when you re-active your account or re-occurring payment is processed. It is no different with new purchase.

    You buy a game, use retail key to setup an account. Then like everyone else who wants to play the game you fill up your payment method to gain active subscriber status. CC will be charged on expiration date of previous subscriber period, GTC are due nature processed immediately.


    Company has indeed technical backup for this process as it makes perfect sense. It probably isn't intuitive or convenient but it is reasonable.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by SpottyGekko



    Why the descrimination ?




     

    Because it is not discrimination.

    1) Southerns hemisphere makes 50% of the globe, not EAs playerbase.

    2) Standard payment method for internet services is CC. You want to use some other, optional method? Sure, you have top accept that it might not work same way as CC because it - non-standard payment method.



    You are not discriminated. It is your issue that you are not able for whatever reason meet standards of internet service payments. EA offered you hand with GTC and their 'limited' functionality.

    Yeah indeed evil EA, the bastards should not support GTC at all, I guess.

     



    People will complain just about anything...

    You utterly misunderstood my post, it's almost amusing. But english is not your first language, so it's understandable.

    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    You utterly misunderstood my post, it's almost amusing. But english is not your first language, so it's understandable.
    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 

    I did not misunderstood you as we had this discussion before.


    In Europe, CC is certainly standard payment method for internet services like anywhere else. Sure, there are regions of Europe where CC is not as easy to obtain, ie. Russia or some 'less developed', eastern countries. However, that is a problem of those regions not being able to meet the standards and the rest of the Europe as I pointed out already, not the company.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by SpottyGekko



    Why the descrimination ?





     

    Because it is not discrimination.

    1) Southerns hemisphere makes 50% of the globe, not EAs playerbase.

    2) Standard payment method for internet services is CC. You want to use some other, optional method? Sure, you have top accept that it might not work same way as CC because it - non-standard payment method.



    You are not discriminated. It is your issue that you are not able for whatever reason meet standards of internet service payments. EA offered you hand with GTC and their 'limited' functionality.

    Yeah indeed evil EA, the bastards should not support GTC at all, I guess.

     



    People will complain just about anything...

    You utterly misunderstood my post, it's almost amusing. But english is not your first language, so it's understandable.

    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 

    must have changed recently then image

    but.. nonetheless.. the 'cheque is in the post' scam does not work on P2P games.. so.. if you want to play.. you gotta pay.. promising to bung them a few quid through the post isnt likely to work... and if you can't afford it.. then.. check out the F2P section..  though technically they are more expensive.. and have been known to ask for credit card information image

  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by SpottyGekko



    Why the descrimination ?





     

    Because it is not discrimination.

    1) Southerns hemisphere makes 50% of the globe, not EAs playerbase.

    2) Standard payment method for internet services is CC. You want to use some other, optional method? Sure, you have top accept that it might not work same way as CC because it - non-standard payment method.



    You are not discriminated. It is your issue that you are not able for whatever reason meet standards of internet service payments. EA offered you hand with GTC and their 'limited' functionality.

    Yeah indeed evil EA, the bastards should not support GTC at all, I guess.

     



    People will complain just about anything...

    You utterly misunderstood my post, it's almost amusing. But english is not your first language, so it's understandable.

    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 

    I dont know where you live in europe but in the UK CC is the "standard payment method for internet services". I know stamps are still legal tender but I doubt amazon will accept stamps as payment :(. Hell I tried stamps at the train station once for a laugh and they didnt even accept it.

    On a side note I hate going throught soho to some backwards places that only accept cash, I dont carry cash on me at all EVER, this is not 1967 anymore.

     

    Also it doesnt have to be a CREDIT card, this is just a denomination for plastic payment, my debit card functions as a credit card for all intents and purposes being a VISA, which allows me to do everything without paying anything on CREDIT.

    image

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by SpottyGekko



    You utterly misunderstood my post, it's almost amusing. But english is not your first language, so it's understandable.

    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 




     

    I did not misunderstood you as we had this discussion before.



    In Europe, CC is certainly standard payment method for internet services like anywhere else. Sure, there are regions of Europe where CC is not as easy to obtain, ie. Russia or some 'less developed', eastern countries. However, that is a problem of those regions not being able to meet the standards and the rest of the Europe as I pointed out already, not the company.

    Which european country do you live in ?

    Here in Netherlands, which also happens to have the highest per capita internet access of all european countries, CC are not the "accepted standard of internet payment", certainly not for european-based services, anyways.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004

    Originally posted by rav3n2

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by SpottyGekko



    Why the descrimination ?





     

    Because it is not discrimination.

    1) Southerns hemisphere makes 50% of the globe, not EAs playerbase.

    2) Standard payment method for internet services is CC. You want to use some other, optional method? Sure, you have top accept that it might not work same way as CC because it - non-standard payment method.



    You are not discriminated. It is your issue that you are not able for whatever reason meet standards of internet service payments. EA offered you hand with GTC and their 'limited' functionality.

    Yeah indeed evil EA, the bastards should not support GTC at all, I guess.

     



    People will complain just about anything...

    You utterly misunderstood my post, it's almost amusing. But english is not your first language, so it's understandable.

    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 

    I dont know where you live in europe but in the UK CC is the "standard payment method for internet services". I know stamps are still legal tender but I doubt amazon will accept stamps as payment :(. Hell I tried stamps at the train station once for a laugh and they didnt even accept it.

    On a side note I hate going throught soho to some backwards places that only accept cash, I dont carry cash on me at all EVER, this is not 1967 anymore.

    thats a good point, also live in the UK, so maybe its a cultural thing here.. pesky foreigners and their dependency on hard currency (is there one these days ???image)  either way i buy everything with plastic.. debit or credit - debit doesnt incur charges that CC's do which is handy too..  and for those paranoid about using these things online (Me!!) there is also handy things like Paypal etc..  mind you im glad its not 1967 anymore, the only mice i'd be likely to encounter would be the cheese fixated ones, and pong was still vapourware.. speaking of which.. i think i was probably still in nappies at the time.. so maybe pong wasnt so much vapourware . as vapour(be)ware .... image

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by rav3n2


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


     

    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 

    I dont know where you live in europe but in the UK CC is the "standard payment method for internet services". I know stamps are still legal tender but I doubt amazon will accept stamps as payment :(. Hell I tried stamps at the train station once for a laugh and they didnt even accept it.

    On a side note I hate going throught soho to some backwards places that only accept cash, I dont carry cash on me at all EVER, this is not 1967 anymore.

    thats a good point, also live in the UK, so maybe its a cultural thing here.. pesky foreigners and their dependency on hard currency (is there one these days ???image)  either way i buy everything with plastic.. debit or credit - debit doesnt incur charges that CC's do which is handy too..  and for those paranoid about using these things online (Me!!) there is also handy things like Paypal etc..  mind you im glad its not 1967 anymore, the only mice i'd be likely to encounter would be the cheese fixated ones, and pong was still vapourware.. speaking of which.. i think i was probably still in nappies at the time.. so maybe pong wasnt so much vapourware . as vapour(be)ware .... image

    It is a cultural thing. Over here, if you offer a credit card as payment method in a shop, the sales assistant will look at you a bit oddly and ask for identification. The vast majority of people use debit cards, and some *gasp* even use cash... 0.o

    Internet payments are commonly handled via direct bank debit, payment services (Paypal, iDeal, etc.) or CC. But because so many people don't have a CC, it's certainly not the "most used" option.

  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Originally posted by Phry


    Originally posted by rav3n2


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko


     

    In europe, CC is certainly not the "standard payment method for internet services". 

    I dont know where you live in europe but in the UK CC is the "standard payment method for internet services". I know stamps are still legal tender but I doubt amazon will accept stamps as payment :(. Hell I tried stamps at the train station once for a laugh and they didnt even accept it.

    On a side note I hate going throught soho to some backwards places that only accept cash, I dont carry cash on me at all EVER, this is not 1967 anymore.

    thats a good point, also live in the UK, so maybe its a cultural thing here.. pesky foreigners and their dependency on hard currency (is there one these days ???image)  either way i buy everything with plastic.. debit or credit - debit doesnt incur charges that CC's do which is handy too..  and for those paranoid about using these things online (Me!!) there is also handy things like Paypal etc..  mind you im glad its not 1967 anymore, the only mice i'd be likely to encounter would be the cheese fixated ones, and pong was still vapourware.. speaking of which.. i think i was probably still in nappies at the time.. so maybe pong wasnt so much vapourware . as vapour(be)ware .... image

    It is a cultural thing. Over here, if you offer a credit card as payment method in a shop, the sales assistant will look at you a bit oddly and ask for identification. The vast majority of people use debit cards, and some *gasp* even use cash... 0.o

    Internet payments are commonly handled via direct bank debit, payment services (Paypal, iDeal, etc.) or CC. But because so many people don't have a CC, it's certainly not the "most used" option.

    Hmm ok its weird and what I said is , when I mean CC I actually mean a Debit card which is issued by VISA it doesnt actually pay on credit it just takes out of my regular bank account, it is used as you would a credit card, and that is what I use for SWTOR and other MMOs. I dont know of anyone who uses Credit Cards. Only ppl that want to buy what they cant afford use credit cards to get in debt.

    I have a credit card which has never been activated and is now with a limit around 2k cause they want me to use it so keep upping the limit. I would never use a credit card and pay outrageous interest fees. 

    Paying with a VISA debit card is standard to pay online, going to the shops and pretty much use everywhere, and every country I have been it has always been widely accepted and I have seen ppl use it all the time within Europe, so I call BS to ppl not using plastic to pay for stuff everywhere.

    image

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Here in Netherlands, which also happens to have the highest per capita internet access of all european countries, CC are not the "accepted standard of internet payment", certainly not for european-based services, anyways.

    You are mixing 2 things, local based practice and world wide practice.

    Even in Netherlands people use CC for internet services payments just like anywhere else, it is just local business preferring other payment method.


    You ask for world wide company to operate like your local business. That is just silly as I already pointed out to you.


  • kishekishe Member UncommonPosts: 2,012

    For what its worth, I used my Paypal account as payment info...I use bank transfers to paypal to fund my gaming habits therefore neither party has my credit card!

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