PvE at max level won't be a waste of time if it is fun and somethign new to do. With over 1500 events and 8 Dungeons with 3 paths each, that is quite a bit to do. Plus Anet will be adding new DEs and modifying exsisting DEs. People have forgtten how to have fun in games these days. Too many are concerned about rewards instead of actually having fun doing the content.
GW2 isn't only about what is at the end of the game, it is about the journey to get there and beyond.
I am not so impressed by 8 dungeons though, I thinkit will take an expansion or 2 before the endgame really is what it should be PvE wise.
But you are right that there is more than getting new gear and as long as it is fun it is worth playing,
Those 8 Dungeons will have 3 paths that your party can choose to take. So in essence that would be 24 Dungeons. Each path makes that Dungeon feel different. In addition there will be random DEs inside those Dungeons. Also there is Story Mode for those 8 Dungeons. That is quite a few things to do. I think it will be plenty for quite awhile.
For me, the raiding has always been about challenge and beating the content. In most themepark MMOs, the gear is what makes it possible. Raiding is like belonging to a sport club. It requires level of organisation and dedication that some people do not find attractive. I think people make the "grinding gear" a bigger issue that it really is. Most people like to get shinies, but in good guilds it is not the goal or the purpose of raiding.
However, a game does not have to have raiding as a gameplay feature, but it should have something that requires both organisation and dedication.
Nine out of ten Raiders who say they like the Challenge of raids, never want to participate in competitive pvp. I think the difficulty of Raids is overblown, its a playstyle thats it, I have met countless Top gear score Raiders that I could mop the floor with in pvp with a basic pvp set. Because against players you cant stand in one spot and spam you highest DPS rotation. RAIDing is about time investment and having a large guild with recourses. Most raiders abhor in game events, world pvp, or anything that requires them to be at the mercy of the environment around them. Its a diseased playstyle that turns MMORPGS into 10 man lan parties and a chat room.
that's the bottom line, to me. beating on mobs is far too simple. as you said, you can just stand there and faceroll. the pace of pvp is much harder and faster and i've always wished that element could be brought into pve. i didn't play lotr, but wasn't there a gimmick of someone being able to control the boss? or the monsters? that would be a pretty cool addition, i think. getting a bit more of a challenge into those bosses by making them more unpredictable and more prone to responding to what they're facing. like, oh, i don't know, the UBER boss they're supposed to be?
i find it disappointing when the lore of the game builds up a boss to insane levels, and all they do is whomp you like an 80s platformer.
i'm not saying pvp is necessarily "better" but there's an element of challenge which comes from not knowing what the other player will bring to the party that's missing from pve. i really think the devs need to mix it up a bit more in the dungeon department. give some of us credit for wanting it to REALLY be hard and REALLY be challenging by not KNOWING what to expect and actually responding to what's thrown at us. to me, that would be awesome. i always envy the first guys to get into a dungeon. those who don't know what's in there, what's around the corner. that must feel awesome.
after that, though, with everyone forced to gear up and "know" and "learn" "the fight", it's just boring.
The amount of teamwork required to get things done in PvE groups of 25+ groups is insane. If one person makes a mistake you have a high chance of getting the entire group killed (talking about high end PvE here). PvPers often think a little to lighheaded about the top PvE stuff. Standing in 1 place the entire fight and rolling through you highest DPS rotation is something that almost never happens in top content. Most boss fights 5+- players get a very skill depended job while the other 20 players can do the fight with less important jobs. This results that not everyone needs to be of a high personal skill.
In PvP is slightly different since the groups are smaller ( even worse in 1v1 ). Because the groups are small everyone needs to be able to push things to the fullest. That being said in most (not all) you use the same basic tactics vs certain combs. to counter them. The biggest difference is ofc that PvP is always unpredictable. So the reaction time needs to be higher in PvP.
From what i've seen in the various MMO's i've played is that both side requires teamwork and strategy's and both sides needs some solid skilled players to get the job done.
Same can be said about PvP. Teamwork is usually between smaller groups ( 3vs3 for example ).
i'm not saying teamwork is a bad thing, but when the entire challenge of doing a raid centres not around the content, but the logistics of getting a team together, then you've got a bad game. and any game that virtually demands players to "know" a fight and needs everyone to press their buttons in the right order at the right time is simply a multiplayer form of tetris.
there's no challenge, and i will maintain that. the first time you see a boss in a raid, you feel a thrill. the second time, maybe. third? meh. after a while, you'll nod off mid-fight. because every single time it's the same.
there's no challenge.
raids NEED to evolve. they need to become more exciting and more challenging. gw2 has a nice step forward, but i'll be very disappointed if they also go the path of static bosses. bosses need to change and become more fluid. more adaptable and less predictable. they need this so the boss itself can acquire something of a personality. so beating the boss actually becomes an achievement of its own. some things should be HARD because of the uncertainty. not hard simply by upping the boss' dps and health.
as they are, raids are a useless and outdated hook on which to hang an mmo. it's time to move forward.
GW2 isn't only about what is at the end of the game, it is about the journey to get there and beyond.
Funny that's been used to describe another MMO that gets a boatload more criticism then GW2
reckon there'll be more involved in the "journey" in gw2 than just cut scenes, though, wouldn't you? :P
Yea I meant everything not just one feature. Personal Story, DEs, Dungeons and W v W. Not to mention side stuff like crafting, mini games, Holiday events, ect.
Yea I meant everything not just one feature. Personal Story, DEs, Dungeons and W v W. Not to mention side stuff like crafting, mini games, Holiday events, ect.
I'm not saying GW2 won't be good, hell I'll probably buy it, but when you make a list like that I just don't see how it is going to be innovative. Literally everything on that list has been done before
Originally posted by Kityn Yea I meant everything not just one feature. Personal Story, DEs, Dungeons and W v W. Not to mention side stuff like crafting, mini games, Holiday events, ect.
I'm not saying GW2 won't be good, hell I'll probably buy it, but when you make a list like that I just don't see how it is going to be innovative. Literally everything on that list has been done before
Yes they have all been done before, in name only. How they are implemented in GW2 is quite different to what you have seen before.
that's the bottom line, to me. beating on mobs is far too simple. as you said, you can just stand there and faceroll. the pace of pvp is much harder and faster and i've always wished that element could be brought into pve. i didn't play lotr, but wasn't there a gimmick of someone being able to control the boss? or the monsters? that would be a pretty cool addition, i think. getting a bit more of a challenge into those bosses by making them more unpredictable and more prone to responding to what they're facing. like, oh, i don't know, the UBER boss they're supposed to be?
i find it disappointing when the lore of the game builds up a boss to insane levels, and all they do is whomp you like an 80s platformer.
i'm not saying pvp is necessarily "better" but there's an element of challenge which comes from not knowing what the other player will bring to the party that's missing from pve. i really think the devs need to mix it up a bit more in the dungeon department. give some of us credit for wanting it to REALLY be hard and REALLY be challenging by not KNOWING what to expect and actually responding to what's thrown at us. to me, that would be awesome. i always envy the first guys to get into a dungeon. those who don't know what's in there, what's around the corner. that must feel awesome.
after that, though, with everyone forced to gear up and "know" and "learn" "the fight", it's just boring.
The amount of teamwork required to get things done in PvE groups of 25+ groups is insane. If one person makes a mistake you have a high chance of getting the entire group killed (talking about high end PvE here). PvPers often think a little to lighheaded about the top PvE stuff. Standing in 1 place the entire fight and rolling through you highest DPS rotation is something that almost never happens in top content. Most boss fights 5+- players get a very skill depended job while the other 20 players can do the fight with less important jobs. This results that not everyone needs to be of a high personal skill.
In PvP is slightly different since the groups are smaller ( even worse in 1v1 ). Because the groups are small everyone needs to be able to push things to the fullest. That being said in most (not all) you use the same basic tactics vs certain combs. to counter them. The biggest difference is ofc that PvP is always unpredictable. So the reaction time needs to be higher in PvP.
From what i've seen in the various MMO's i've played is that both side requires teamwork and strategy's and both sides needs some solid skilled players to get the job done.
Same can be said about PvP. Teamwork is usually between smaller groups ( 3vs3 for example ).
i'm not saying teamwork is a bad thing, but when the entire challenge of doing a raid centres not around the content, but the logistics of getting a team together, then you've got a bad game. and any game that virtually demands players to "know" a fight and needs everyone to press their buttons in the right order at the right time is simply a multiplayer form of tetris.
there's no challenge, and i will maintain that. the first time you see a boss in a raid, you feel a thrill. the second time, maybe. third? meh. after a while, you'll nod off mid-fight. because every single time it's the same.
there's no challenge.
raids NEED to evolve. they need to become more exciting and more challenging. gw2 has a nice step forward, but i'll be very disappointed if they also go the path of static bosses. bosses need to change and become more fluid. more adaptable and less predictable. they need this so the boss itself can acquire something of a personality. so beating the boss actually becomes an achievement of its own. some things should be HARD because of the uncertainty. not hard simply by upping the boss' dps and health.
as they are, raids are a useless and outdated hook on which to hang an mmo. it's time to move forward.
i find your comparison to tetris a little bit odd. But saying Tetris isn't a challange is just dumb tetris is one of the most chalanging games on the planet imo.
That being said, you are twisting words right now. Ofcourse bosses become dull after they've been done and completed 2/3 times. But that is not why we raid. The thrill of that first kill is a feeling that lasts for days (depends on fights ofc). Getting everyone to push the buttons at the right time is a big generallisation. It's about learning how a fight works and come up with a tactic to counter it That is why people like me like raiding. noone on this planet likes farming the same 'ol bosses for gear
Raids are considered endgame. Endgame is the wall you hit where there's nothing "better" to do until the next expansion, release, whatever. Take WoW for example... you get to max level, grind your way to the latest raid and do what? Run the same content over and over getting the best gear you can. Why? Well, for one thing, with the new gear the rest of the game is now obsolete. You completely overpower the older raids. Hell, you skip all the older raids as you're levelling, just for the pleasure of getting on the latest treadmill. So then what? You repeat the same content, which is the only challenging content left, over and over until you get the best gear from it you can... and you do this until the next set of raids is released. Then you start your grind fresh, running towards that next new endgame wall and leaving the raids you spent all that time on until now in your rear view mirror as obsolete.
Now, people are so used to running into the next wall that there's a great deal of difficulty in being able to accept that there's a game out there that doesn't have one. There's no final area that renders all the game up to that point obsolete. It's hard for many to accept that, even if they've defeated Zhaitan, the earlier stages of the game will still be challenging. There's no gear grind rendering them obsolete, and with side kicking you'll find even exploere dungeons from many, many levels ago still a challenge.
This is why people are having a hard time accepting there are no raids. There's no final wall to run into. The whole game is "endgame", for want of a better term. It might be better to say that no parts of the game truly become obsolete when you've reached max level.
i find your comparison to tetris a little bit odd. But saying Tetris isn't a challange is just dumb tetris is one of the most chalanging games on the planet imo.
That being said, you are twisting words right now. Ofcourse bosses become dull after they've been done and completed 2/3 times. But that is not why we raid. The thrill of that first kill is a feeling that lasts for days (depends on fights ofc). Getting everyone to push the buttons at the right time is a big generallisation. It's about learning how a fight works and come up with a tactic to counter it That is why people like me like raiding. noone on this planet likes farming the same 'ol bosses for gear
You know... that's a big problem with raids these days. You don't learn how the fight works. No one does anymore. Blizzard, for example, when beta testing new raids they bring in the "top" raiding guilds, give them the script on how the fight works, then let the guilds practice the script while testing. There's no learning, no trial and error. Do this at this point, do that at that point. Minimum tank requirements, minimum healer requirements, minimum dps numbers before enrage hits.
You don't learn how a fight works. You're told how it works, then you practice the script. Over and over and over again.
That's the beauty with GW2 dungeons. There are no scripts. Without the archaic trinity concept, and with each profession performing each of the damage, control and support aspects of combat, depending on the professions present (and the people behind them) every fight can and often will be a different and unique encounter. You won't have all your dps professions standing at a particular spot going through their rotation while tank "A" holds the boss, tank "B" does this, healer "1" keeps the main tank up, etc. Every fight will be different. A group with a guardian, mesmer, thief, warrior and elementalist will do a certain fight completely differently than five thieves for example. That's an experience you can't get in WoW style trinity based raids where everyone is generisized into a particular role.
And, that's a large reason why, imo, there are no raids in GW2. No trinity, no script, no raid-style fights.
Yeah, man. Don't you badmouth tetris! That's still one of the best video games ever! Imo, game designers everywhere sill have a lot to learn from that game... from emergent content (random bricks, nowadays they'd probably "design" levels and puzzles to limit game time and sell add-ons) and scoring system which is nothing short of brilliant in its simplicity.
Yea I meant everything not just one feature. Personal Story, DEs, Dungeons and W v W. Not to mention side stuff like crafting, mini games, Holiday events, ect.
I'm not saying GW2 won't be good, hell I'll probably buy it, but when you make a list like that I just don't see how it is going to be innovative. Literally everything on that list has been done before
Yes they have all been done before, in name only. How they are implemented in GW2 is quite different to what you have seen before.
I'm still looking for someone to give me [one] MMORPG that has don all these and implented in this exact format.
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I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
A very good video. I've never listened to him before, but he makes for a good narrator. But yeah...I'm ready for raids to wander out onto the tundra, somewhere, and die.
I agree, it's nice to see at least one game coming out won't be all about raiding.
Yea I meant everything not just one feature. Personal Story, DEs, Dungeons and W v W. Not to mention side stuff like crafting, mini games, Holiday events, ect.
I'm not saying GW2 won't be good, hell I'll probably buy it, but when you make a list like that I just don't see how it is going to be innovative. Literally everything on that list has been done before
Yes they have all been done before, in name only. How they are implemented in GW2 is quite different to what you have seen before.
I'm still looking for someone to give me [one] MMORPG that has don all these and implented in this exact format.
Couldn't agree with you more. I'm sick of hearing people say, this isn't feature innovative because X game kinda sorta has the same feature. Well all I can say to those individuals is, tell me which MMORPG does all that Guild Wars 2 is aiming to do, in the exact same way, so that I can go out an buy it.
Can someone explain me the difference between dungeon and a raid?
A dungeon usually have 5 or 6 players, a raid is between 10 and 48.
initially in EQ raids were not strictly bound by numbers of players. guild wars and guild wars 2 have dungeon crawls, and if you think of dungeon/raid in WoW terms then they would be raids. they are not quick consumable, low difficulty content that you run in the morning before school. they take an hour or more to do, and they are hard.
Two groups I'll be happy not to run into in Guild Wars 2 are the open world gankers who only want to fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor and preferably when someone is afk or talking to a quest giver. The second group I don't want to be around is gear-obsessed raiders.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I'm not saying GW2 won't be good, hell I'll probably buy it, but when you make a list like that I just don't see how it is going to be innovative. Literally everything on that list has been done before
Each individual item may have been done in another game, but no game has melded them together like ArenaNet is trying to do. It's the interaction of all of these innovative elements in a single game that will truly make GW2 shine.
I'd also argue no other game has thrown out traditional quests and quest hubs and exchanged them for Dynamic Event chains that move across maps, interact, and branch in unique directions depending on success/failure and a number of other factors.
That one change alone, I think, is going to make GW2 feel like a different kind of game. Then add in no more trinity play, the ability to dodge attacks if you're good enough, all the multiple tweaks to make playing with other players a bonus instead of a burden, and I think GW2 isn't going to feel like any other MMO out there.
that's the bottom line, to me. beating on mobs is far too simple. as you said, you can just stand there and faceroll. the pace of pvp is much harder and faster and i've always wished that element could be brought into pve. i didn't play lotr, but wasn't there a gimmick of someone being able to control the boss? or the monsters? that would be a pretty cool addition, i think. getting a bit more of a challenge into those bosses by making them more unpredictable and more prone to responding to what they're facing. like, oh, i don't know, the UBER boss they're supposed to be?
i find it disappointing when the lore of the game builds up a boss to insane levels, and all they do is whomp you like an 80s platformer.
i'm not saying pvp is necessarily "better" but there's an element of challenge which comes from not knowing what the other player will bring to the party that's missing from pve. i really think the devs need to mix it up a bit more in the dungeon department. give some of us credit for wanting it to REALLY be hard and REALLY be challenging by not KNOWING what to expect and actually responding to what's thrown at us. to me, that would be awesome. i always envy the first guys to get into a dungeon. those who don't know what's in there, what's around the corner. that must feel awesome.
after that, though, with everyone forced to gear up and "know" and "learn" "the fight", it's just boring.
The amount of teamwork required to get things done in PvE groups of 25+ groups is insane. If one person makes a mistake you have a high chance of getting the entire group killed (talking about high end PvE here). PvPers often think a little to lighheaded about the top PvE stuff. Standing in 1 place the entire fight and rolling through you highest DPS rotation is something that almost never happens in top content. Most boss fights 5+- players get a very skill depended job while the other 20 players can do the fight with less important jobs. This results that not everyone needs to be of a high personal skill.
In PvP is slightly different since the groups are smaller ( even worse in 1v1 ). Because the groups are small everyone needs to be able to push things to the fullest. That being said in most (not all) you use the same basic tactics vs certain combs. to counter them. The biggest difference is ofc that PvP is always unpredictable. So the reaction time needs to be higher in PvP.
From what i've seen in the various MMO's i've played is that both side requires teamwork and strategy's and both sides needs some solid skilled players to get the job done.
Same can be said about PvP. Teamwork is usually between smaller groups ( 3vs3 for example ).
i'm not saying teamwork is a bad thing, but when the entire challenge of doing a raid centres not around the content, but the logistics of getting a team together, then you've got a bad game. and any game that virtually demands players to "know" a fight and needs everyone to press their buttons in the right order at the right time is simply a multiplayer form of tetris.
there's no challenge, and i will maintain that. the first time you see a boss in a raid, you feel a thrill. the second time, maybe. third? meh. after a while, you'll nod off mid-fight. because every single time it's the same.
there's no challenge.
raids NEED to evolve. they need to become more exciting and more challenging. gw2 has a nice step forward, but i'll be very disappointed if they also go the path of static bosses. bosses need to change and become more fluid. more adaptable and less predictable. they need this so the boss itself can acquire something of a personality. so beating the boss actually becomes an achievement of its own. some things should be HARD because of the uncertainty. not hard simply by upping the boss' dps and health.
as they are, raids are a useless and outdated hook on which to hang an mmo. it's time to move forward.
i find your comparison to tetris a little bit odd. But saying Tetris isn't a challange is just dumb tetris is one of the most chalanging games on the planet imo.
That being said, you are twisting words right now. Ofcourse bosses become dull after they've been done and completed 2/3 times. But that is not why we raid. The thrill of that first kill is a feeling that lasts for days (depends on fights ofc). Getting everyone to push the buttons at the right time is a big generallisation. It's about learning how a fight works and come up with a tactic to counter it That is why people like me like raiding. noone on this planet likes farming the same 'ol bosses for gear
it might shock you, but i've actually done a fair amount of raiding. i agree it was nice to kill a boss, once upon a time. these days it's no challenge is what i'm saying. it's an old format, hence the comparison to tetris. there's no level of fear when facing the boss. the majority of raiding guilds want you to "know" the fight, so it's always a case of been there, done that. you've read everything about the boss. maybe watched some youtube. so you know when to step back, when to run away from your team when you've been targetted. you know everything there is to know because you don't want to be responsible for the wipe that makes everything degenerate even worse and the abuse in your ears while you either reset for a second try, or someone wets his pants and runs off with a petulant cry.
there is nothing about a raid which encourages you to go in with a bunch of gamers and actually game. it is entirely and exercise in memory and tapping the right key at the right time as outlined on whatever guide you read; when the boss jumps and lets out a green fart, you must duck then run back in when his eyes glow red, pressing x-x-y-z (hence again, tetris).
no one "works up a tactic" these days. they were worked up before the stupid raid was even released.
no one "works up a tactic" these days. they were worked up before the stupid raid was even released.
The first time you do a raid you have to figure it out, unless its been in game so long that the guides are open to public viewing. Or unless you are in that one guild that got special treatment by being invited to beta the raid. But from my experience that guild normally keeps it a secret for some time.
no one "works up a tactic" these days. they were worked up before the stupid raid was even released.
The first time you do a raid you have to figure it out, unless its been in game so long that the guides are open to public viewing. Or unless you are in that one guild that got special treatment by being invited to beta the raid. But from my experience that guild normally keeps it a secret for some time.
Hell, before Lich King was released I was watching the boss fights on YouTube, complete with strategy on how to do it. There's no "figuring out" in modern raids anymore. You don't learn the fight, you learn the script.
no one "works up a tactic" these days. they were worked up before the stupid raid was even released.
The first time you do a raid you have to figure it out, unless its been in game so long that the guides are open to public viewing. Or unless you are in that one guild that got special treatment by being invited to beta the raid. But from my experience that guild normally keeps it a secret for some time.
No they don't. Guides to beating raids go up almost immediately on sites like Youtube, the pioneering guild showing off their skill and loot and thinking, mistakenly, "I'm making the game more fun for people who haven't done this yet", when all they're doing is taking away the mystery and making it all about memorizing boss mechanics. It's a race nowadays in games like WoW and SWTOR to get videos of your guild beating a raid up as fast as possible, and then anyone who is less than a hardcore raider need only look it up and go from there. The frist time I've done raids, not being a hardcore raider, I never needed to "figure it out", nor did most people in the raid. In fact, if you hadn't at least watched videos, you would be shunned or made to feel stupid because you didn't know some pre-planned pattern. Yeah, no thanks.
Maybe you'd have been correct in WoW vanilla days, but the case of guilds "normally keeping it a secret" is just not true.
Why every MMO must be about raiding? there are games with raiding already, GW2 is for those who dislike end game raiding grind and i fully suppot their right to have atleast one MMO like GW2.
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Why every MMO must be about raiding? there are games with raiding already, GW2 is for those who dislike end game raiding grind and i fully suppot their right to have atleast one MMO like GW2.
I agree. If you want raiding games, they will still be available. I think the problem is the psychology behind the reward system. People are used to it, it makes them comfortable, even if they really don't enjoy the grind (ie: me when I was playing WoW). It's scientifically proven that people react badly to changes like these, and stamp their feet or scratch their heads if they're not willing to part with a certain method of self-gratificiation. Strangely enough, as evidenced by the psychology of sites like Facebook and its changes, people eventually get used to the new way and barely remember after a while what was so great about the old.
Why every MMO must be about raiding? there are games with raiding already, GW2 is for those who dislike end game raiding grind and i fully suppot their right to have atleast one MMO like GW2.
I agree. If you want raiding games, they will still be available. I think the problem is the psychology behind the reward system. People are used to it, it makes them comfortable, even if they really don't enjoy the grind (ie: me when I was playing WoW). It's scientifically proven that people react badly to changes like these, and stamp their feet or scratch their heads if they're not willing to part with a certain method of self-gratificiation. Strangely enough, as evidenced by the psychology of sites like Facebook and its changes, people eventually get used to the new way and barely remember after a while what was so great about the old.
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Those 8 Dungeons will have 3 paths that your party can choose to take. So in essence that would be 24 Dungeons. Each path makes that Dungeon feel different. In addition there will be random DEs inside those Dungeons. Also there is Story Mode for those 8 Dungeons. That is quite a few things to do. I think it will be plenty for quite awhile.
i'm not saying teamwork is a bad thing, but when the entire challenge of doing a raid centres not around the content, but the logistics of getting a team together, then you've got a bad game. and any game that virtually demands players to "know" a fight and needs everyone to press their buttons in the right order at the right time is simply a multiplayer form of tetris.
there's no challenge, and i will maintain that. the first time you see a boss in a raid, you feel a thrill. the second time, maybe. third? meh. after a while, you'll nod off mid-fight. because every single time it's the same.
there's no challenge.
raids NEED to evolve. they need to become more exciting and more challenging. gw2 has a nice step forward, but i'll be very disappointed if they also go the path of static bosses. bosses need to change and become more fluid. more adaptable and less predictable. they need this so the boss itself can acquire something of a personality. so beating the boss actually becomes an achievement of its own. some things should be HARD because of the uncertainty. not hard simply by upping the boss' dps and health.
as they are, raids are a useless and outdated hook on which to hang an mmo. it's time to move forward.
reckon there'll be more involved in the "journey" in gw2 than just cut scenes, though, wouldn't you? :P
Yea I meant everything not just one feature. Personal Story, DEs, Dungeons and W v W. Not to mention side stuff like crafting, mini games, Holiday events, ect.
I'm not saying GW2 won't be good, hell I'll probably buy it, but when you make a list like that I just don't see how it is going to be innovative. Literally everything on that list has been done before
Yes they have all been done before, in name only. How they are implemented in GW2 is quite different to what you have seen before.
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i find your comparison to tetris a little bit odd. But saying Tetris isn't a challange is just dumb
tetris is one of the most chalanging games on the planet imo.
That being said, you are twisting words right now. Ofcourse bosses become dull after they've been done and completed 2/3 times. But that is not why we raid. The thrill of that first kill is a feeling that lasts for days (depends on fights ofc). Getting everyone to push the buttons at the right time is a big generallisation. It's about learning how a fight works and come up with a tactic to counter it
That is why people like me like raiding. noone on this planet likes farming the same 'ol bosses for gear 
Raids are considered endgame. Endgame is the wall you hit where there's nothing "better" to do until the next expansion, release, whatever. Take WoW for example... you get to max level, grind your way to the latest raid and do what? Run the same content over and over getting the best gear you can. Why? Well, for one thing, with the new gear the rest of the game is now obsolete. You completely overpower the older raids. Hell, you skip all the older raids as you're levelling, just for the pleasure of getting on the latest treadmill. So then what? You repeat the same content, which is the only challenging content left, over and over until you get the best gear from it you can... and you do this until the next set of raids is released. Then you start your grind fresh, running towards that next new endgame wall and leaving the raids you spent all that time on until now in your rear view mirror as obsolete.
Now, people are so used to running into the next wall that there's a great deal of difficulty in being able to accept that there's a game out there that doesn't have one. There's no final area that renders all the game up to that point obsolete. It's hard for many to accept that, even if they've defeated Zhaitan, the earlier stages of the game will still be challenging. There's no gear grind rendering them obsolete, and with side kicking you'll find even exploere dungeons from many, many levels ago still a challenge.
This is why people are having a hard time accepting there are no raids. There's no final wall to run into. The whole game is "endgame", for want of a better term. It might be better to say that no parts of the game truly become obsolete when you've reached max level.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You know... that's a big problem with raids these days. You don't learn how the fight works. No one does anymore. Blizzard, for example, when beta testing new raids they bring in the "top" raiding guilds, give them the script on how the fight works, then let the guilds practice the script while testing. There's no learning, no trial and error. Do this at this point, do that at that point. Minimum tank requirements, minimum healer requirements, minimum dps numbers before enrage hits.
You don't learn how a fight works. You're told how it works, then you practice the script. Over and over and over again.
That's the beauty with GW2 dungeons. There are no scripts. Without the archaic trinity concept, and with each profession performing each of the damage, control and support aspects of combat, depending on the professions present (and the people behind them) every fight can and often will be a different and unique encounter. You won't have all your dps professions standing at a particular spot going through their rotation while tank "A" holds the boss, tank "B" does this, healer "1" keeps the main tank up, etc. Every fight will be different. A group with a guardian, mesmer, thief, warrior and elementalist will do a certain fight completely differently than five thieves for example. That's an experience you can't get in WoW style trinity based raids where everyone is generisized into a particular role.
And, that's a large reason why, imo, there are no raids in GW2. No trinity, no script, no raid-style fights.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Yeah, man. Don't you badmouth tetris! That's still one of the best video games ever! Imo, game designers everywhere sill have a lot to learn from that game... from emergent content (random bricks, nowadays they'd probably "design" levels and puzzles to limit game time and sell add-ons) and scoring system which is nothing short of brilliant in its simplicity.
I'm still looking for someone to give me [one] MMORPG that has don all these and implented in this exact format.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
^ dang- agree so much
wow , as not a GW fan...
I have to say you guys got some thing to look forward to.
Couldn't agree with you more. I'm sick of hearing people say, this isn't feature innovative because X game kinda sorta has the same feature. Well all I can say to those individuals is, tell me which MMORPG does all that Guild Wars 2 is aiming to do, in the exact same way, so that I can go out an buy it.
Raids are hard? Not for the last 5 years.
Two groups I'll be happy not to run into in Guild Wars 2 are the open world gankers who only want to fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor and preferably when someone is afk or talking to a quest giver. The second group I don't want to be around is gear-obsessed raiders.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Each individual item may have been done in another game, but no game has melded them together like ArenaNet is trying to do. It's the interaction of all of these innovative elements in a single game that will truly make GW2 shine.
I'd also argue no other game has thrown out traditional quests and quest hubs and exchanged them for Dynamic Event chains that move across maps, interact, and branch in unique directions depending on success/failure and a number of other factors.
That one change alone, I think, is going to make GW2 feel like a different kind of game. Then add in no more trinity play, the ability to dodge attacks if you're good enough, all the multiple tweaks to make playing with other players a bonus instead of a burden, and I think GW2 isn't going to feel like any other MMO out there.
it might shock you, but i've actually done a fair amount of raiding. i agree it was nice to kill a boss, once upon a time. these days it's no challenge is what i'm saying. it's an old format, hence the comparison to tetris. there's no level of fear when facing the boss. the majority of raiding guilds want you to "know" the fight, so it's always a case of been there, done that. you've read everything about the boss. maybe watched some youtube. so you know when to step back, when to run away from your team when you've been targetted. you know everything there is to know because you don't want to be responsible for the wipe that makes everything degenerate even worse and the abuse in your ears while you either reset for a second try, or someone wets his pants and runs off with a petulant cry.
there is nothing about a raid which encourages you to go in with a bunch of gamers and actually game. it is entirely and exercise in memory and tapping the right key at the right time as outlined on whatever guide you read; when the boss jumps and lets out a green fart, you must duck then run back in when his eyes glow red, pressing x-x-y-z (hence again, tetris).
no one "works up a tactic" these days. they were worked up before the stupid raid was even released.
The first time you do a raid you have to figure it out, unless its been in game so long that the guides are open to public viewing. Or unless you are in that one guild that got special treatment by being invited to beta the raid. But from my experience that guild normally keeps it a secret for some time.
Hell, before Lich King was released I was watching the boss fights on YouTube, complete with strategy on how to do it. There's no "figuring out" in modern raids anymore. You don't learn the fight, you learn the script.
Oderint, dum metuant.
No they don't. Guides to beating raids go up almost immediately on sites like Youtube, the pioneering guild showing off their skill and loot and thinking, mistakenly, "I'm making the game more fun for people who haven't done this yet", when all they're doing is taking away the mystery and making it all about memorizing boss mechanics. It's a race nowadays in games like WoW and SWTOR to get videos of your guild beating a raid up as fast as possible, and then anyone who is less than a hardcore raider need only look it up and go from there. The frist time I've done raids, not being a hardcore raider, I never needed to "figure it out", nor did most people in the raid. In fact, if you hadn't at least watched videos, you would be shunned or made to feel stupid because you didn't know some pre-planned pattern. Yeah, no thanks.
Maybe you'd have been correct in WoW vanilla days, but the case of guilds "normally keeping it a secret" is just not true.
Why every MMO must be about raiding? there are games with raiding already, GW2 is for those who dislike end game raiding grind and i fully suppot their right to have atleast one MMO like GW2.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
I agree. If you want raiding games, they will still be available. I think the problem is the psychology behind the reward system. People are used to it, it makes them comfortable, even if they really don't enjoy the grind (ie: me when I was playing WoW). It's scientifically proven that people react badly to changes like these, and stamp their feet or scratch their heads if they're not willing to part with a certain method of self-gratificiation. Strangely enough, as evidenced by the psychology of sites like Facebook and its changes, people eventually get used to the new way and barely remember after a while what was so great about the old.
Tell that to the SWG vets.
In Bioware we trust!
lol I never played SWG, but I think I know what you mean. I've seen people displeased that SWG style gameplay wasn't brought back.