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The reason this game actually needs to fail.
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100% agree with you OP and I have said myself in the past that this game needs to fail. It is a step backwards, from an MMORPG, and we gamers should not reward such.
My gaming blog
Not sure why you are bringing in the 'I have XYZ degree'.
It normally indicates the poster can not argue a point with proper reasoning or facts.
I can say I have a degree in medicine or kung-fu or heck even 3D programming.
Not sure why you are bringing up Razrs either.
The mobile sector had huge growth and innovation after the success of Iphones. That's a fact.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Interestingly, those are 3 separate criteria that aren't often interconnected.
New products aren't always innovative, nor are innovative products always better, and better products don't have to be necessarily new or innovative to be successful.
You see this in everything: movies, tv shows, household products, fashion, games, software programs, etc etc.There is nothing innovative to superhero movies or a Transformers 3 or Tolkien-style epic fantasy books, yet they sell like crazy and are hugely successful.
The reason for this is one that a lot of people who desperately crave for innovation often ignore or fail to realise: the interest in innovation is only 1 criterium in the decisionmaking process for many people, another is what satisfaction they can derive from a purchase, and another motivation is the recognisable, things that fall into their comfort zone, that they know and are comfortable with.
Of course the IP matters as well as the company making it, but hey, newsflash, that applies to other MMO's as well: EQ2, WoW, LotrO, AoC and WAR wouldn't have had their launch figures and initial reception if those games wouldn't have had that IP and were were made by some obscure company. Heck, GW2 wouldn't have been on the hype levels it is today if it wasn't made by ANet that a lot of gamers have learnt to trust by their handling of GW and if a lot of gamers hadn't enjoyed GW so much, I am one of them that purely got instantly interested in GW2 bc of GW and ANet, and gave their claims and statements more credit bc of it.All those games (not sure about gw2 never beta it yet) you wrote have tons of more features at launch hell even AoC had more things going even if it failed due to massive bugs and missing content at launch.
Nope, they didn't.
Besides that, the point was that the IP and company making it have their influence on interest and initial sales/reception as much in those games I named as it has for TOR, that's how it works. It isn't as if people uses completely rational, cold logic ignoring the IP/company making those other MMO's while at the same time when it comes to TOR it's purely the name and company that forms their decisionmaking and gaming enjoyment? Right >.>To distill the above;
People expect entertainment product to be entertaining.
Transformers 3 was entertaining for a large group of people.
Themepark MMOs are entertaining for a larger group of people than Sandbox MMOs.
Like we say in the financial industry, numbers don't lie.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Sure SWG had lost a lot of its subs but at the time the player base was pretty stable and probally would have stayed that for a lnog time. Sure SWG had bugs when it launched every MMORPG does thats just the way of things. A lot of people left because they just wanted to be a jedi but had to look forward to a nice long holo grind to get there and then have the possibility of perma death. To me and many others this made perfect sense and was probally the best way to fit jedis into the game.
Like others have said here LA/SOE seen how well the basic wow game was donig and wanted to grab some fo the cash, this was a mistake as the changes they made pushed away just as many people as wow initally took.. I am pretty sure that if they had left the game mechanics in place and just expanded the game with new exp packs every now and then the player base would have been a lot better than it was after NGE. i know i would have carried on playing as well as the guild i was in at the time.
Anyway at the end of the day SWTOR is no where near as godo as SWG was, but saying that its not the same type of game. It would be better to compare SWTOR to WoW if we had to compare it to somthing and even vanilla wow when realeased with all tis issues was still better that SWTOR. The majority of MMO players these days enjoy the Themepark type gaems so thats where the major cash is so nearly every AAA mmo released is always gonig to be similar
And how many phones with less features than the iPhone have succeeded since then?
I'm not going to give up on you. I believe you can do it.
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
As i've said it for the 3rd time (c'mon, you can do it! Look i'll even underline it for you!), innovation doesn't equal success.
Success equals innovation.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I have a degree in marketing. And law.
And using your iPhone argument - how many Motorola Razrs sold after the release of the iPhone? More or less?
Not sure why you are bringing in the 'I have XYZ degree'.
It normally indicates the poster can not argue a point with proper reasoning or facts.
I can say I have a degree in medicine or kung-fu or heck even 3D programming.
Not sure why you are bringing up Razrs either.
The mobile sector had huge growth and innovation after the success of Iphones. That's a fact.
And how many phones with less features than the iPhone have succeeded since then?
I'm not going to give up on you. I believe you can do it.
You have a point, but you're also wilfully ignoring the examples that innovation is only 1 of the factors for success or people's decisionmakin, as seen in the success of movies, tv shows, books, fashion, games, music etc and what sort of products they were while still being successful.It may be only 1 factor, but let's test its importance?
Are you typing your responses on an Altair 8080 or a Motorola Razr?
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
This is the better post.
And makes more sense.
People act as if the failing of such a game will make investors invest in something completley different. That's not even remotely true and it probably points to a larger problem which is that some forum goers have no idea as to what investing, on any level, is about.
One only invests for two reasons:
you believe in the product so much that you must be a part of it regardless of loss.
You want to make money.
I suspect that most people want to make money. So if the mmo market just proves that a lot of money can be poured in with fickle players being part fo the deciding factor, they aren't going to keep pouring money into it with the hopes that someday they may hit the jackpot. They are going to start looking for more solid returns elsewhere.
I mean heck, I play these things, I come to these forums and I dont' have one cent in any gaming ventures espeically mmo's. I think the most I ever offered/pledged to a game investment was $200 when players were trying to purchase Ryzom and they wanted to raise money.
Having games that have massive investment but fail spectacularly will not help the mmo cause. And another thing, players keep shouting "indies, indies, indies"! Well that's great. Only every time some indy game comes out with less than spectacular graphics and animations one suddenly see people descend to rip it apart. For some reaosn people think Indy means "having the resources of a major game company but not being beholden to their decisions".
I have no doubt we would see more indy game but they are not going ot be on the level of a AAA title. And before people start screaming "EVE,EVE, EVE" EVE is an exception that was very small when it started out at a particualry "right" time. Whe the industry was a little bit younger and when it was the only space offering out there.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This kind of reasoning is like saying that if ONE type of product fails then investors will stop investing in the entire product genre. This is simply not true as investors are smarter than that. They will analyze why a particular product failed and not invest in that type of product, this does not mean they will abandon the entire product genre.
Like for example a Nokia smartphone model fails does not mean there will be no more development into smartphones.
My gaming blog
I have a degree in marketing. And law.
And using your iPhone argument - how many Motorola Razrs sold after the release of the iPhone? More or less?
Not sure why you are bringing in the 'I have XYZ degree'.
It normally indicates the poster can not argue a point with proper reasoning or facts.
I can say I have a degree in medicine or kung-fu or heck even 3D programming.
Not sure why you are bringing up Razrs either.
The mobile sector had huge growth and innovation after the success of Iphones. That's a fact.
And how many phones with less features than the iPhone have succeeded since then?
I'm not going to give up on you. I believe you can do it.
You have a point, but you're also wilfully ignoring the examples that innovation is only 1 of the factors for success or people's decisionmakin, as seen in the success of movies, tv shows, books, fashion, games, music etc and what sort of products they were while still being successful.It may be only 1 factor, but let's test its importance?
Are you typing your responses on an Altair 8080 or a Motorola Razr?
I'm typing my responses on a PC using a Windows operating system just like as good as all of my former PC's used Windows operating systems, with a Firefox browser that I've been using for many, many years while I have a couple of MS Office programs open that when I look at it, haven't changed that much over the years when I started using it even with all the version updates. Also, I don't think I'm that unique in those products in their category I use.So bad products should be bought because there's a small possibility it could impact other good products in that market? How about harmful products? How about the 1974 Pinto?
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
But let's ignore the fact that what Blizz did with a LFR tool was innovative (innovative in that no one has tried this before and gives people a chance to see the finale without dealiing with the time commmitement of a raiding guild, this is not about "ohhh this detrements the game") and that there will be unforseen consequences and banning is a bandage to the issue until a more permenent fix is in place. If we're talking bout banning should we cite the numerous banning BW has done on players unjustly?
The problem with SWTOR is a lot of features that it lacks and is subpar which these features have long been in the MMO industry and no way should be in the condition that they are. This is simpely a tell tale sign of a rushed product. Rift had a very smooth launch, will all the bells n whistles smoothed out (at least for the most part from what I hear). Hell BW couldn't even get the damn AH right, how pathetic is it that your AH has improper item listing, i.e. research compund listed under scavanging. Myself and others take little crap like that as a tell tale sign, while by itself it means nothing it does add to the other numerous gripes.
It's always hysterical how people compare TORs launch to WoWs, a launch that was done OVER 8 FRIGGIN YEARS AGO!!!!
OP: the game doesn't need or deserve to fail. and this is coming from me. i'm with that plinkplonk w/e (sorry i dont remember how to spell your name) guy who saw this game not being the best thing since sliced bread years ago when i started to follow it and was getting emails from the official site about content updates and began to read between the lines that the game was shallow and would not hold my interest. You are very clearly bummed out by getting all set up from expectations and having reality shatter your dreams. all i can say is that "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." I'm sorry that you didn't get the mmo you wanted, but i think if the game can make an honest turn around and in 6 months to a year rectify ALLLLLLLLL its mistakes then i'll be proud of it. Once you let off some steam and MMOve on you will see that time heals all wounds.
@anyone who thinks ToR is not inferior to SWG: you crazy.
@everyone who replies to posts they dont agree with by saying "Nope."(for real, yo, i've seen this like twice in this thread alone) followed by banal retorts: I have 2 VERY strong words for you: c'mon. C'MON! (obscure reference) You're like arguing with a mule.
A Mule: No sorry, Kevin Bacon wasn't in Footloose.
Guy: What!?, of course he was.
A Mule: No he wasn't, you lose.
Guy: Of course he was, he was the star.
A Mule: Nope, you're wrong. Look it up.
Guy: I don't have to look it up, it's common knowledge
A Mule: Nope..
Guy: he was on the cover
A Mule: Nope
Guy: of People Magazine
A Mule: Nope..
Guy: when the movie
A Mule: No
Guy: Everyone knows...
A Mule: No
Guy: that.
A Mule: No!..
Guy: Kevin Bacon..
A Mule: NO!
Guy: was the star
A Mule: NO!
Guy: in Footloose..
A Mule: NO!
Guy: It was a huge movie,
A Mule: NO!
Guy: he was the lead.
A Mule: NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! HeeHaw! HeeHaw! HeeHaw!
sorry to go off so harshly on everyone. really though, this thread is kind of a waste of space and i almost regret posting in it. almost.
Of course a number of investors will leave the market if they see products failing, just like that a horde of investors joined the market when they saw a type of product succeeding. This has been seen time and time again in history. Not all investors of course, but investors are notoriously risk averse and won't just pour huge resources into products that haven't in some way proving themselves of returning large profits. Like WoW did, and that a number of themepark MMO's afterwards did. If they spent big bucks, most of them want reassurance that they can expect big bucks back, hence why proven successful product lines are often followed.As for the rest of the debate, a product doesn't need to fail for other different products to be successful. It's really as simple as that.
It doesn't matter. They will always invent something so people buy it. This time was the VO, next time who knows.
Let's just stay away from those big commerical invenstments because they are just designed money making machines to get 15$ from the biggest number of mostly young people.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
... as is evident by colossal failures of games such as Sim City, Civilization, the GTA series, The Sims, Farmville, Minecraft and the whole Elder Scroll Series...
And saying that single player games are somehow better suited for sandbox design is just laughable. It's like saying that Facebook would be a better platform if you couldn't have friends. Sandbox desing principles are inherent to massively multiplayer medium and ESPECIALLY the concept of subscription-based financing. Players creating content for other players. Constantly and at no cost for the developers. That's the bottom line. Period. Just like Facebook, you know. It's a whole another question why no one managed to create a decent one yet, but lack of major funding definitely plays a part.
Please leave financing to the financiers and games to game designers. This obviously flawed "truism" is actually what is keeping mmos the laughing stock of the industry and which is an indirect cause of many failures up to and probably including SW:TOR.
It may be a typical themepark but I am enjoying it quite a bit, more than I did Rift or any themepark since the release of WoW.
I don't think it is a problem to launch without features; if they get them in after launch, it'll be fine. Time will tell if they can do that.
To distill the above;
People expect entertainment product to be entertaining.
Transformers 3 was entertaining for a large group of people.
Themepark MMOs are entertaining for a larger group of people than Sandbox MMOs.
Like we say in the financial industry, numbers don't lie.
... as is evident by colossal failures of games such as Sim City, Civilization, the GTA series, The Sims, Farmville, Minecraft and the whole Elder Scroll Series...
And saying that single player games are somehow better suited to sandbox design is just laughable. It's like saying that Facebook would be a better platform if you couldn't have friends.
Please leave your financing to the financiers and games to game designers. This obviously flawed "truism" is actually what is keeping mmos the laughing stock of the industry and which is an indirect cause of many failures up to and probably including SW:TOR.
As the MW series, the tons of samelike but bestselling shooter games, an SC2 that very much resembles SC of 10 years ago, and so on and so on.
Get it in your head, as good as all people simply want entertainment from their entertainment products and have fun with them.
For some that means that their new products need to be innovative since they lost or burnt out the ability to enjoy the current products (mind the word 'enjoyment' which needs to be prevalent), for other people that are still able to enjoy a current style of products it means that it just needs to be fun for them.Heckj, even for those people here who constantly crave and rant for innovation, the motivation is *exactly* the same: entertainment and fun. They want to be entertained and have fun while they play MMO's.
And they ONLY crave for innovation bc they're unable to currently enjoy and have fun in MMO's.
Meaning, the main dominant motivation is still 'being entertained'.
For a number of people, this primary goal of being entertained can still be achieved with the current crop and style of MMO's.To be honest I'd rather see a title like: Why I think this game needs to fail.
Why? Because subjective opinion does not = universal fact.
Official forums and forums on sites like this are filled with posts. Posts cover every type of personality or point of view.
The thing is developers don't care which is why they are often silent. What they do notice is subscription numbers.
The only thing that needs to happen with the MMO industry (not just this game) is people have to actually follow through. Which means when you don't like something don't pay for it and if you do like it play it and pay for it.
Eventually there is either going to be change... or some of us just have to realize we don't represent the market.. are not going to get the type of game we want and move on...
considering the reason I ever found this site... it might be time for *me* to just move on from this market.
rehashed subject from eq2 in 2005 i see?dont bother writing.i said it in the past it isnt for everybody this game but the casual player will love it,since casual player is the majority the pro player wont like it.its life go play lol instead!
The only thing that will happen if SWTOR fails is that more and more companies will move to the free to play business model.
Themepark MMOs, average games, even broken games, none of that will change, they just won't want to spend big money on an MMO if they all fail.
As hysterical as comparing a fresh new game to a game that has been out 8 years you mean content wise?
The point of my post is WoW is far from the perfect game everyone pretends it is... I left most of the major stuff out. The stuff like how WoW had such shitty servers 2-3 years after release that the majority of the Horde guilds on Stormrage left the server due to lag from poor server quality.Blizzard eventually after ruining the community on the Horde side offered free transfers(after they made a crap load of money on paid ones mind you) before finally fixing/updating the old servers and all that free transfered did was allow more horde to leave.. Noone seems to remember the 2-3 weeks of server crashes and emergency patches either World of Warcraft had after launch. All they know is the game that exist today and pretend it was polished game from the beginning with no flaws. But please Lets keep playing pretend and pretending Blizzard is the best thing ever.
I also played Rift early on from beta to launch and it was probably the smoothest launch ive seen so far so i wont argue there.