Depending on how much you need to grind in order to equal the gold buyers is the question which determines how egregious the pay2win is. If it is a small amount of grinding then it is less bad than lots of grinding. But in either case, this is how the majority of Korean pay2win grinders work so unless all of a sudden Korean MMOs are the epitomy of esport your line of argument won't get you very far...
We've already seen for a fact that it's easy to get enough gold quite early in the game for WvW purposes, based simply on the press videos showing plenty of seige weapons and even fort upgrades (reinforced gates, for example, as well as caravan npc escorts). There was only a couple days available for the beta, so no real time to both grind and run WvW.
The different categories of cash shop items in GW2:
Things nobody has a problem with (e.g., extra character slots)
Pay2win advantages (e.g., RvRvR bonuses)
Grind reducers (e.g., EXP boosters, repair bot)
Crass in-your-face insults (e.g., "mystic keys")
The reason this debate is so hard is many use the bait-and-switch debate tactic of responding to a line of debate regarding one of the above items types and diverting it to another. For example when I am discussing RvRvR advantages a fanatic will often switch the argument to "who cares about EXP boosts." If you say there are only some items that are bad the fanatic will often swtich the argument to "who cares about cosmetics or extra character slots" etc. The problem in debating this is each of us has a different level of objection. People like me only will accept item type 1 above. Others are ok with 1, 3, and 4. Some are ok will all of the above. Some only care about 2. Some only care about 4. etc. This is a hard debate to have, but suffice it to say these microtransactions are certainly not "uniting the GW2 coumminity" as Anet has so hilariously indicated...
We don't want any rationality here, thank you very much.
The different categories of cash shop items in GW2:
Things nobody has a problem with (e.g., extra character slots)
Pay2win advantages (e.g., RvRvR bonuses)
Grind reducers (e.g., EXP boosters, repair bot)
Crass in-your-face insults (e.g., "mystic keys")
The reason this debate is so hard is many use the bait-and-switch debate tactic of responding to a line of debate regarding one of the above items types and diverting it to another. For example when I am discussing RvRvR advantages a fanatic will often switch the argument to "who cares about EXP boosts." If you say there are only some items that are bad the fanatic will often swtich the argument to "who cares about cosmetics or extra character slots" etc.
The problem in debating this is each of us has a different level of objection. People like me only will accept item type 1 above. Others are ok with 1, 3, and 4. Some are ok will all of the above. Some only care about 2. Some only care about 4. etc.
This is a hard debate to have, but suffice it to say these microtransactions are certainly not "uniting the GW2 coumminity" as Anet has so hilariously indicated...
i dont see any of the microtransactions as the problem people are having in the game, its the gem -> gold thing. that has nothing to do with the cash shop and i think is where people are getting hung up
saying the cash shop is p2w, people will look at the cash shop items and say there is nothing p2w in it.
If you state you have an problem with the gem -> gold process, thats a different story but IMO its still not a problem
Seriously folks, all you have to do is watch the beta WvW videos to see how silly this whole argument it. You'll see, in a world where there wasn't even time to amass great riches, plenty of seige weapons, from catapults to trebuchets to even seige golems. They're all over the place. This is demonstrated to be a complete non-issue.
We also have to take into consideration that in a 3 day beta people are more willing to spend an absurd amount of gold for 10 minutes of time with a seige golem too. Players won't be spending their gold on things they deem wasteful on release day.
They might be spending half their resources for all we know. Still, in WvWvW we tend to see very few seige golems compared to players. We know it's very expensive at level 30 and below for the 10 minutes or so you'll likely get using it (it seems to take roughly 5 or so full participations - gold - in a dynamic event just to accumulate that much gold at level 30). What we don't know is how much gold gain scales post 30, and at 80 if 1 gold can be obtained in 10 minutes of farming this is pretty much a non-issue.
We really don't have any solid enough data to come to any conclusions at this point.
True. However, that also reflects directly on gold-purchasing... if gold proves to be that restrictive to farm then good luck trying to get any significant amount in trade for gems. If the value for gold is high you simply won't get much for gems.
Also, everything you buy in WvW is throwaway. When the servers reset it doesn't matter how much gold you've pumped into things, >poof< it's all gone. The moment plant a blueprint for a seige weapon it's gone forever, even if you get a little use out of it. So WvW will definitely be a gold sink. Are people going to spend a lot of real world cash to flush down that sink for minimal buffs, for example, that only affect a small area of the map as long as the other two teams don't take that structure? How much will they cough into seige equipment which they may never even get a chance to use? Again, can't say until it's in practice.
The different categories of cash shop items in GW2:
Things nobody has a problem with (e.g., extra character slots)
Pay2win advantages (e.g., RvRvR bonuses)
Grind reducers (e.g., EXP boosters, repair bot)
Crass in-your-face insults (e.g., "mystic keys")
The reason this debate is so hard is many use the bait-and-switch debate tactic of responding to a line of debate regarding one of the above items types and diverting it to another. For example when I am discussing RvRvR advantages a fanatic will often switch the argument to "who cares about EXP boosts." If you say there are only some items that are bad the fanatic will often swtich the argument to "who cares about cosmetics or extra character slots" etc.
The problem in debating this is each of us has a different level of objection. People like me only will accept item type 1 above. Others are ok with 1, 3, and 4. Some are ok will all of the above. Some only care about 2. Some only care about 4. etc.
This is a hard debate to have, but suffice it to say these microtransactions are certainly not "uniting the GW2 coumminity" as Anet has so hilariously indicated...
i dont see any of the microtransactions as the problem people are having in the game, its the gem -> gold thing. that has nothing to do with the cash shop and i think is where people are getting hung up
saying the cash shop is p2w, people will look at the cash shop items and say there is nothing p2w in it.
If you state you have an problem with the gem -> gold process, thats a different story but IMO its still not a problem
Well that mechanic of gem->gold while have gold give advantages in-game is no accident. So it is most definately a cash shop issue in my opinion.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
The different categories of cash shop items in GW2:
Things nobody has a problem with (e.g., extra character slots)
Pay2win advantages (e.g., RvRvR bonuses)
Grind reducers (e.g., EXP boosters, repair bot)
Crass in-your-face insults (e.g., "mystic keys")
The reason this debate is so hard is many use the bait-and-switch debate tactic of responding to a line of debate regarding one of the above items types and diverting it to another. For example when I am discussing RvRvR advantages a fanatic will often switch the argument to "who cares about EXP boosts." If you say there are only some items that are bad the fanatic will often swtich the argument to "who cares about cosmetics or extra character slots" etc.
The problem in debating this is each of us has a different level of objection. People like me only will accept item type 1 above. Others are ok with 1, 3, and 4. Some are ok will all of the above. Some only care about 2. Some only care about 4. etc.
This is a hard debate to have, but suffice it to say these microtransactions are certainly not "uniting the GW2 coumminity" as Anet has so hilariously indicated...
i dont see any of the microtransactions as the problem people are having in the game, its the gem -> gold thing. that has nothing to do with the cash shop and i think is where people are getting hung up
saying the cash shop is p2w, people will look at the cash shop items and say there is nothing p2w in it.
If you state you have an problem with the gem -> gold process, thats a different story but IMO its still not a problem
Well that mechanic of gem->gold while have gold give advantages in-game is no accident. So it is most definately a cash shop issue in my opinion.
If someone has the gold already to trade for gems if they wish, then all gems do is trade between people who purchases these minor defensive advantages. I can buy them myself at the keep, or I can trade the gold to you for gems and you can buy them.
How does an experience boost break the WvWvW? maybe a guy can only play 3hrs a day, so he buys a boost. When youre all cap level anyway, whats the matter? You have to BUY gems WITH gold. You cannot go to an NPC and transfer gems to gold, someone still has to farm the gold. I see nothing wrong with it. I may just buy 100gems just to laugh at you people.
The different categories of cash shop items in GW2:
Things nobody has a problem with (e.g., extra character slots)
Pay2win advantages (e.g., RvRvR bonuses)
Grind reducers (e.g., EXP boosters, repair bot)
Crass in-your-face insults (e.g., "mystic keys")
The reason this debate is so hard is many use the bait-and-switch debate tactic of responding to a line of debate regarding one of the above items types and diverting it to another. For example when I am discussing RvRvR advantages a fanatic will often switch the argument to "who cares about EXP boosts." If you say there are only some items that are bad the fanatic will often swtich the argument to "who cares about cosmetics or extra character slots" etc.
The problem in debating this is each of us has a different level of objection. People like me only will accept item type 1 above. Others are ok with 1, 3, and 4. Some are ok will all of the above. Some only care about 2. Some only care about 4. etc.
This is a hard debate to have, but suffice it to say these microtransactions are certainly not "uniting the GW2 coumminity" as Anet has so hilariously indicated...
i dont see any of the microtransactions as the problem people are having in the game, its the gem -> gold thing. that has nothing to do with the cash shop and i think is where people are getting hung up
saying the cash shop is p2w, people will look at the cash shop items and say there is nothing p2w in it.
If you state you have an problem with the gem -> gold process, thats a different story but IMO its still not a problem
Well that mechanic of gem->gold while have gold give advantages in-game is no accident. So it is most definately a cash shop issue in my opinion.
If someone has the gold already to trade for gems if they wish, then all gems do is trade between people who purchases these minor defensive advantages. I can buy them myself at the keep, or I can trade the gold to you for gems and you can buy them.
Yeah, one player can buy advantages while another player has to grind for them. Not sure your point. It is a technical detail of whether gold is created or not but does not affect whether you can buy it with real life money or not. Gold sellers in other MMOs work under the same principle, although in those games you account can be banned for doing it...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
The different categories of cash shop items in GW2:
Things nobody has a problem with (e.g., extra character slots)
Pay2win advantages (e.g., RvRvR bonuses)
Grind reducers (e.g., EXP boosters, repair bot)
Crass in-your-face insults (e.g., "mystic keys")
The reason this debate is so hard is many use the bait-and-switch debate tactic of responding to a line of debate regarding one of the above items types and diverting it to another. For example when I am discussing RvRvR advantages a fanatic will often switch the argument to "who cares about EXP boosts." If you say there are only some items that are bad the fanatic will often swtich the argument to "who cares about cosmetics or extra character slots" etc.
The problem in debating this is each of us has a different level of objection. People like me only will accept item type 1 above. Others are ok with 1, 3, and 4. Some are ok will all of the above. Some only care about 2. Some only care about 4. etc.
This is a hard debate to have, but suffice it to say these microtransactions are certainly not "uniting the GW2 coumminity" as Anet has so hilariously indicated...
I'm still waiting on the well detailed things on this shop that haven't been broken down yet.
I along with many others already gave so many reasons why this is not the case lol.
You want us or least me to just copy and paste what was already stated?
This is why I wish that leaked Colin Johnson post was able to just stay leaked, so many fasle statements.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
How does an experience boost break the WvWvW? maybe a guy can only play 3hrs a day, so he buys a boost. When youre all cap level anyway, whats the matter? You have to BUY gems WITH gold. You cannot go to an NPC and transfer gems to gold, someone still has to farm the gold. I see nothing wrong with it. I may just buy 100gems just to laugh at you people.
Its like groundhog day here. Go educate yourself on the RvRvR system and the various gold-based advantages. Switching the argument to "EXP boosters" is exactly the tactic I discussed a few posts ago. We are not talking about EXP boosters when we are complaining about RvRvR pay2win...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
What's the next excuse? WvW isn't PvP so it doesn't have to be fair? Siege weapons can be used against players or the all mighty fort door. Hell, every gem buyer can buy the most expensive, and the only mobile siege weapon, the siege golem (A gundam!).
For those that don't already know, you can buy gems in the cash shop, then trade them for gold with other players.
Man if the price were 100g+ I will agree with you, but for 1g? really?
I encourage you to watch a few of the press videos that are out. You get about 1-2 silver per event from what they show. When I played at an expo last year I had a handfull of silver at level 4. GW2's money flow is a lot less than other games.
I remember in DaoC, getting that first gold. Think I was in my 20's. Granted, when you are 50 plats are easy to get. If you have EVER played a mmorpg you know how this works.. early levels is hard to get money, later levels easier. You are now just grasping at straws. You keep posting on a forum for a game you obviously hate, throwing out anything you can reach for so you can tell yourself you are right in front of a bunch of strangers.
Really? I hate this game? Holy shit, my first encounter with a hostile fanchild.
I actually really like this game. The mechanics and the flavor are excellent. I hate what they've done with the shop, though, and I'm on a crusade to get any advantage-granting items removed from it. If that means I hate the game in your eyes then so be it, but nothing could be farther from the truth.
I can tell you for a fact that from what precious little time I had playing this game last year the money situation was much slower than many other MMOs. Copper actually mattered for a long time. In most modern games I can hop into the highest tier of currency fairly quickly, but I didn't with GW2. In the demo time I was alotted, I reached level four, and if memory serves I had all of 6 silver at that point. Unless money gain has changed dramatically since then (and it hasn't if you look at the screenshots and video clips) then one gold will mean a hell of a lot in this game (which is a good thing). I strongly doubt you'd be able to legitimately obtain a gold piece before level 15 unless the economy is already matured (or inflated due to people buying advantages from the cash shop).
I also wouldn't take what the "reporters" on this website say as gospel. They're the same people that rate "bad" games highly and promised us SWTOR would be a super awesome game with super awesome story and super aswesome PvP. I am a gamer, first and foremost, and all I care about are quality games without cheesy shops that give people power for real-life money. I have absolutely no reason to lie to anyone on these boards. I don't care how cool or trollish you think I am. I'm here because I'm passionate about my hobby of choice, and particularly about this game. I want it to do well, but no matter how much I may like the game (and the company developing it) I will call out bullshit when I see it. The cash shop is just that no matter how much you want it to be the best thing since sliced bread... unless you like the idea of using real-life money to buy advantages (regardless of how you percieve their impacts or whether or not they matter to you at all, buying a bonus to anything is an advantage over people who do not buy said bonus) in which case this shop may give you a chubby.
Ahem, back on subject. The money flow is not what you think it is. I guarantee you that I have a better understanding of how money works in this game than you do, but don't take my word for it if you don't want your illusions shattered. I actually like the way money flows because it makes each tier of currency matter more, but don't go thinking for a minute that gold is "easy" to get at lower levels. It is not unlikely that press people had access to stuff that plebians didn't, including methods of acquiring currency (with or without diregarding females).
Yeah, one player can buy advantages while another player has to grind for them. Not sure your point. It is a technical detail of whether gold is created or not but does not affect whether you can buy it with real life money or not. Gold sellers in other MMOs work under the same principle, although in those games you account can be banned for doing it...
So I grind gold, trade to you for gems and buy a new bag slot or two, maybe a character slot... you in turn buy guild upgrades for a bit for defensive bonii in WvW, which I then to go WvW, hang around the keep your guild controls and share the bonii.
There's no technical details of whether or not gold's created... it is, but only from the drops and rewards I earned. None *poofs* into existence on the exchange of gems, so you're not creating any power. I already had that power, I traded it to you for gems to get something I wanted in return. This is win-win, not only for us, but the server as a whole.
What's the next excuse? WvW isn't PvP so it doesn't have to be fair? Siege weapons can be used against players or the all mighty fort door. Hell, every gem buyer can buy the most expensive, and the only mobile siege weapon, the siege golem (A gundam!).
For those that don't already know, you can buy gems in the cash shop, then trade them for gold with other players.
Man if the price were 100g+ I will agree with you, but for 1g? really?
I encourage you to watch a few of the press videos that are out. You get about 1-2 silver per event from what they show. When I played at an expo last year I had a handfull of silver at level 4. GW2's money flow is a lot less than other games.
I remember in DaoC, getting that first gold. Think I was in my 20's. Granted, when you are 50 plats are easy to get. If you have EVER played a mmorpg you know how this works.. early levels is hard to get money, later levels easier. You are now just grasping at straws. You keep posting on a forum for a game you obviously hate, throwing out anything you can reach for so you can tell yourself you are right in front of a bunch of strangers.
Really? I hate this game? Holy shit, my first encounter with a hostile fanchild.
I actually really like this game. The mechanics and the flavor are excellent. I hate what they've done with the shop, though, and I'm on a crusade to get any advantage-granting items removed from it. If that means I hate the game in your eyes then so be it, but nothing could be farther from the truth.
I can tell you for a fact that from what precious little time I had playing this game last year the money situation was much slower than many other MMOs. Copper actually mattered for a long time. In most modern games I can hop into the highest tier of currency fairly quickly, but I didn't with GW2. In the demo time I was alotted, I reached level four, and if memory serves I had all of 6 silver at that point. Unless money gain has changed dramatically since then (and it hasn't if you look at the screenshots and video clips) then one gold will mean a hell of a lot in this game (which is a good thing). I strongly doubt you'd be able to legitimately obtain a gold piece before level 15 unless the economy is already matured (or inflated due to people buying advantages from the cash shop).
I also wouldn't take what the "reporters" on this website say as gospel. They're the same people that rate "bad" games highly and promised us SWTOR would be a super awesome game with super awesome story and super aswesome PvP. I am a gamer, first and foremost, and all I care about are quality games without cheesy shops that give people power for real-life money. I have absolutely no reason to lie to anyone on these boards. I don't care how cool or trollish you think I am. I'm here because I'm passionate about my hobby of choice, and particularly about this game. I want it to do well, but no matter how much I may like the game (and the company developing it) I will call out bullshit when I see it. The cash shop is just that no matter how much you want it to be the best thing since sliced bread... unless you like the idea of using real-life money to buy advantages (regardless of how you percieve their impacts or whether or not they matter to you at all, buying a bonus to anything is an advantage over people who do not buy said bonus) in which case this shop may give you a chubby.
Ahem, back on subject. The money flow is not what you think it is. I guarantee you that I have a better understanding of how money works in this game than you do, but don't take my word for it if you don't want your illusions shattered. I actually like the way money flows because it makes each tier of currency matter more, but don't go thinking for a minute that gold is "easy" to get at lower levels. It is not unlikely that press people had access to stuff that plebians didn't, including methods of acquiring currency (with or without diregarding females).
Look I shit you not you actually are proving those you disagree with right.
Did you know that in order for gems to get gold, gold must be there?
Did you know that?
I don't think you get what that means. Period.
In conclusion this means that one must first have the gold, then go buy the gems, gems just don't get gold from nothing.
Do you really and I mean reallly see why this is actually against paying to get an advatange?
In this case that means it's going to take someone longer to get goold than someone who's getting gold and influence by playing.
Obviousely this contradicts your agreement with the op and you really just agreeing to agree.
The fact is that this is not an advantange by paying it's more so an advatange by playing.
So please understand what your agreeing with and please for the love of God, I played at an expo to, 10 silver by level 7, I do have friends as well as you do who are under nda, I do know what you've been talking about, it's not even true in itself, scrolls?
May the common sense be with you folk.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Yeah, one player can buy advantages while another player has to grind for them. Not sure your point. It is a technical detail of whether gold is created or not but does not affect whether you can buy it with real life money or not. Gold sellers in other MMOs work under the same principle, although in those games you account can be banned for doing it...
So I grind gold, trade to you for gems and buy a new bag slot or two, maybe a character slot... you in turn buy guild upgrades for a bit for defensive bonii in WvW, which I then to go WvW, hang around the keep your guild controls and share the bonii.
There's no technical details of whether or not gold's created... it is, but only from the drops and rewards I earned. None *poofs* into existence on the exchange of gems, so you're not creating any power. I already had that power, I traded it to you for gems to get something I wanted in return. This is win-win, not only for us, but the server as a whole.
It is a technical argument regarding the original creation of power. The fact one can grind for power to sell to the pay2win player does not change the fact that a player can pay2win. Sure, you can argue the player who doesn't pay2win is rewarded with a free character slot, but that doesn't change the fact that a player used real life money to buy an advantage.
Twisting the argument into technical details on where exactly this power is created is a red herring.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Any boost that gives any sort of advantage to actual gameplay is not "cosmetic"
Goggle wearers need to get in tune with reality and stop acting like it's no big deal. Sure these people aren't guaranteed to go around 1 shotting everyone, but they are getting gameplay advantages that would help them be more effective than they would be on a level playing field.
Also the principle behind it stinks after what anet used to promise about their cash shop.
Not that gw2 has much depth anyway, everyone will hit the skill ceiling pretty quickly and run around mindlessly using their limited skillbar.
there are two groups here (main groups at least), im in group one btw
1. those who see pay to win as being when you ABSOLUTELY MUST buy stuff in the cash shop to remain competative (pve is pretty much non competative so no problem). and the advantages arent large enough to have anything more than a negligable effect even if the systems arent managed well (the seige stuff has limiters on it so it cant be overused and im fairly sure a siege golem isnt very good against anything but the keeps).
2. those who see pay to win as being the moment you can get even the slightest advantage over someone else in any way by paying extra money. which you shouldnt be calling pay to win, its more like pay for a slight advantage in areas that because of the way the game is made dont matter because your not taking anything away from or damaging another players experience in game. (unless you like gloating about your uber awesome stuff but then again this game wasnt made for that).
heres an idea if you have a problem with an advantage calling p4a or something because its not the same as being required to pay money to win or enjoy the majority of the game. then maybe the discussions here can get a little more civil as people understand eachother better.
(btw the people against paying for advantages, they said that this sort of thing would be in the game years ago.... so if your gonna complain ... i mean jeez...)
i know i missed something cant put my finger on it but whatever it is can be addressed later
Ahem, back on subject. The money flow is not what you think it is. I guarantee you that I have a better understanding of how money works in this game than you do, but don't take my word for it if you don't want your illusions shattered. I actually like the way money flows because it makes each tier of currency matter more, but don't go thinking for a minute that gold is "easy" to get at lower levels. It is not unlikely that press people had access to stuff that plebians didn't, including methods of acquiring currency (with or without diregarding females).
Then you should understand why this isn't a problem. You do, I assume, understand that when you trade gems for gold you're trading to another person that already has the gold, yes? There's no creation of gold... gems only redistribute gold amongst the willing. I go farm/earn gold for awhile with my eyes on the prize of a new character slot. You buy gems with your eyes on the prize of my gold. I trade you my gold for your gems. I get my new slot, you get your gold. If gold's hard to come by, you won't get a whole lot of it for your gems. If it's easy to come buy, you may get notably more. But it's only gold that already exists in game. It's only getting redistributed.
The different categories of cash shop items in GW2:
Things nobody has a problem with (e.g., extra character slots)
Pay2win advantages (e.g., RvRvR bonuses)
Grind reducers (e.g., EXP boosters, repair bot)
Crass in-your-face insults (e.g., "mystic keys")
The reason this debate is so hard is many use the bait-and-switch debate tactic of responding to a line of debate regarding one of the above items types and diverting it to another. For example when I am discussing RvRvR advantages a fanatic will often switch the argument to "who cares about EXP boosts." If you say there are only some items that are bad the fanatic will often swtich the argument to "who cares about cosmetics or extra character slots" etc.
The problem in debating this is each of us has a different level of objection. People like me only will accept item type 1 above. Others are ok with 1, 3, and 4. Some are ok will all of the above. Some only care about 2. Some only care about 4. etc.
This is a hard debate to have, but suffice it to say these microtransactions are certainly not "uniting the GW2 coumminity" as Anet has so hilariously indicated...
The simple fact is that the game is still in beta and the cash shop is still covered by the NDA, even for the press. That means that whatever is in the shop now, is not final and will most likely be changed before release. This is what beta testing is and at this point it is impossible to say what will or will not be there at release.
As far as your numbered points go, I'm not going to comment on 2. since I'm not sure what RvRvR bonuses are but the rest of the stuff is trivial.
XP boosters mean very little as leveling does not mean much in GW2. In PvP you're boosted to level 80, so the EXP booster means nothing there. In PvE you get scaled down to the zone you're in. In otherwords you won't be able to rush to 80 and then run back to a level 20 zone and demolish everything in sight. When you zone into a level 20 zone as a level 80, the game lowers your stats to that of a level 20 character. Again, EXP boosters mean very little. Moreover, since leveling in GW2 has a very shallow curve and you gain levels at the same rate, there really isn't much grinding. It will probably take you the same amount of time to go from 79-80 as it did to go from 39-40. All an EXP booster will give you is a slightly faster way to progress through zones, which will actually be detrimental at launch since PvE revolves around cooperation and if you rush to max level, you'll have no one to play with.
Repair bot is a very situational item. It's a one time use repair tool which you're only going to use when you absolutely have to. Will it be a game changer? Probably not. I mean if you wiped enough times to warrant the use of a repair bot, chances are you're not going to progress much further anyway.
As far as the insult items like those keys, from what I hear, they will be available for purchase from vendors and possibly drop from mobs. This is pure conjecture on my part but if those chests are anything like the chests in GW1, they will probably contain the same type of gear you can get from vendors, mob drops and quest rewards. Obviously we have to wait for more info on these chests and keys.
/e sticks his head in to see if the typical anti shop rant is going on...
/e sees that it is
/e leaves hoping these people really wont play GW2 because of it so the game will be a much better place without their epeen wagging being in it
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
there are two groups here (main groups at least), im in group one btw
1. those who see pay to win as being when you ABSOLUTELY MUST buy stuff in the cash shop to remain competative (pve is pretty much non competative so no problem). and the advantages arent large enough to have anything more than a negligable effect even if the systems arent managed well (the seige stuff has limiters on it so it cant be overused and im fairly sure a siege golem isnt very good against anything but the keeps).
2. those who see pay to win as being the moment you can get even the slightest advantage over someone else in any way by paying extra money. which you shouldnt be calling pay to win, its more like pay for a slight advantage in areas that because of the way the game is made dont matter because your not taking anything away from or damaging another players experience in game. (unless you like gloating about your uber awesome stuff but then again this game wasnt made for that).
heres an idea if you have a problem with an advantage calling p4a or something because its not the same as being required to pay money to win or enjoy the majority of the game. then maybe the discussions here can get a little more civil as people understand eachother better.
(btw the people against paying for advantages, they said that this sort of thing would be in the game years ago.... so if your gonna complain ... i mean jeez...)
i know i missed something cant put my finger on it but whatever it is can be addressed later
Well, I wouldn't have an issue with your two categories if you dropped the purely opinionated "negligable effect" and change it to "advantage" and if you dropped the purely opinionated "even the slightest advantage" to "advantage."
When a beta testers says the advantage can let you survive "2-3 more hits" or if they recommend that you "bring more people" or to "avoid that keep" then I think calling this "negligable" is dishonest.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
It is a technical argument regarding the original creation of power. The fact one can grind for power to sell to the pay2win player does not change the fact that a player can pay2win. Sure, you can argue the player who doesn't pay2win is rewarded with a free character slot, but that doesn't change the fact that a player used real life money to buy an advantage.
Twisting the argument into technical details on where exactly this power is created is a red herring.
Pay to win what? You haz my gold. I haz your gems. You won? I think I won... I earned a character slot without spending a real world dime. You think you won, you paid for buffs for your keep (which hopefully doesn't get taken from you the moment you finish paying for them). Where's the pay to win, where's the power?
The fact remains, you're not buying something not already in the game, my gold. Whatever "power" that gold provides already exists, and it's MINE, ALL MINE! Until, of course, I trade it to you for gems. Where's the pay to win? Who won? Is it merely subjective now... I think I won when I'm creating that new alt and you think you won when you paid some of that gold for a 12 hour buff?
there are two groups here (main groups at least), im in group one btw
1. those who see pay to win as being when you ABSOLUTELY MUST buy stuff in the cash shop to remain competative (pve is pretty much non competative so no problem). and the advantages arent large enough to have anything more than a negligable effect even if the systems arent managed well (the seige stuff has limiters on it so it cant be overused and im fairly sure a siege golem isnt very good against anything but the keeps).
2. those who see pay to win as being the moment you can get even the slightest advantage over someone else in any way by paying extra money. which you shouldnt be calling pay to win, its more like pay for a slight advantage in areas that because of the way the game is made dont matter because your not taking anything away from or damaging another players experience in game. (unless you like gloating about your uber awesome stuff but then again this game wasnt made for that).
heres an idea if you have a problem with an advantage calling p4a or something because its not the same as being required to pay money to win or enjoy the majority of the game. then maybe the discussions here can get a little more civil as people understand eachother better.
(btw the people against paying for advantages, they said that this sort of thing would be in the game years ago.... so if your gonna complain ... i mean jeez...)
i know i missed something cant put my finger on it but whatever it is can be addressed later
Well, I wouldn't have an issue with your two categories if you dropped the purely opinionated "negligable effect" and change it to "advantage" and if you dropped the purely opinionated "even the slightest advantage" to "advantage."
When a beta testers says(But not shows) the advantage can let you survive "2-3 more hits" or if they recommend that you "bring more people" or to "avoid that keep" then I think calling this "negligable" is dishonest.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I'm guessing the OP and anybody who thinks he has a point never played DAOC.
There may not have been an official cash shop in DAOC but there was certainly a thriving gold farmer business. This mattered for level 50 siege weapons not at all because they didn't cost enough gold to matter to an active level 50 character.
You're not buying siege for 1v1 fights anyway. You're buying them to advance your server in the WvWvW combat. Even if it were an advantage to your server that some player bought gems, converted them to gold, and used the gold to buy siege, almost certainly somebody on the other servers would be able to do likewise. And again if the prices of siege weapons are set so high that it actually matters that you can buy gems in the cash shop, convert them to gold, and use the gold to buy siege weapons, then the entire WvW system is either going to fail or quickly be adjusted in one of the early patches so the prices are more reasonable and hence the cash shop is not a factor..
If anything DAOC was more P2W than GW 2 appears to be, because you definitely could buy plat (illegal according to the TOS) and use it to buy ML 10 and other high end items that gave you real advantages in RvR combat. That doesn't appear to be the case at this point for GW 2. It won't have uber powerful raid items that sell for hundreds of thousands of gold in the trading post which would then give players who could buy gems and convert them to gold an advantage.
Oh and you could use your real life cash in DAOC to buy multiple accounts to have buff bots too. As far as I know, GW 2 won't have those either.
Yet despite all that RvR in DAOC was great fun for many thousands of players for years. If GW 2 can match that level of fun in its first few years with or without a P2W cash shop, it will be a huge success.
It is a technical argument regarding the original creation of power. The fact one can grind for power to sell to the pay2win player does not change the fact that a player can pay2win. Sure, you can argue the player who doesn't pay2win is rewarded with a free character slot, but that doesn't change the fact that a player used real life money to buy an advantage.
Twisting the argument into technical details on where exactly this power is created is a red herring.
Pay to win what? You haz my gold. I haz your gems. You won? I think I won... I earned a character slot without spending a real world dime. You think you won, you paid for buffs for your keep (which hopefully doesn't get taken from you the moment you finish paying for them). Where's the pay to win, where's the power?
The fact remains, you're not buying something not already in the game, my gold. Whatever "power" that gold provides already exists, and it's MINE, ALL MINE! Until, of course, I trade it to you for gems. Where's the pay to win? Who won? Is it merely subjective now... I think I won when I'm creating that new alt and you think you won when you paid some of that gold for a 12 hour buff?
The pay2win is the fact that real life money was injected into the trade. It really isn't that complicated and twisting the topic to a theoretical "origin of power" argument doesn't confuse me. It is very simple.
Real life money -> in-game advantage = pay2win
That equation doesn't change no matter how you twist the argument around "origin of power" technicalities. I understand your "origin of power" and the net-sum argument, but it really is irrelevant to this discussion.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
What's the next excuse? WvW isn't PvP so it doesn't have to be fair? Siege weapons can be used against players or the all mighty fort door. Hell, every gem buyer can buy the most expensive, and the only mobile siege weapon, the siege golem (A gundam!).
For those that don't already know, you can buy gems in the cash shop, then trade them for gold with other players.
Man if the price were 100g+ I will agree with you, but for 1g? really?
I encourage you to watch a few of the press videos that are out. You get about 1-2 silver per event from what they show. When I played at an expo last year I had a handfull of silver at level 4. GW2's money flow is a lot less than other games.
I remember in DaoC, getting that first gold. Think I was in my 20's. Granted, when you are 50 plats are easy to get. If you have EVER played a mmorpg you know how this works.. early levels is hard to get money, later levels easier. You are now just grasping at straws. You keep posting on a forum for a game you obviously hate, throwing out anything you can reach for so you can tell yourself you are right in front of a bunch of strangers.
Really? I hate this game? Holy shit, my first encounter with a hostile fanchild.
I actually really like this game. The mechanics and the flavor are excellent. I hate what they've done with the shop, though, and I'm on a crusade to get any advantage-granting items removed from it. If that means I hate the game in your eyes then so be it, but nothing could be farther from the truth.
I can tell you for a fact that from what precious little time I had playing this game last year the money situation was much slower than many other MMOs. Copper actually mattered for a long time. In most modern games I can hop into the highest tier of currency fairly quickly, but I didn't with GW2. In the demo time I was alotted, I reached level four, and if memory serves I had all of 6 silver at that point. Unless money gain has changed dramatically since then (and it hasn't if you look at the screenshots and video clips) then one gold will mean a hell of a lot in this game (which is a good thing). I strongly doubt you'd be able to legitimately obtain a gold piece before level 15 unless the economy is already matured (or inflated due to people buying advantages from the cash shop).
I also wouldn't take what the "reporters" on this website say as gospel. They're the same people that rate "bad" games highly and promised us SWTOR would be a super awesome game with super awesome story and super aswesome PvP. I am a gamer, first and foremost, and all I care about are quality games without cheesy shops that give people power for real-life money. I have absolutely no reason to lie to anyone on these boards. I don't care how cool or trollish you think I am. I'm here because I'm passionate about my hobby of choice, and particularly about this game. I want it to do well, but no matter how much I may like the game (and the company developing it) I will call out bullshit when I see it. The cash shop is just that no matter how much you want it to be the best thing since sliced bread... unless you like the idea of using real-life money to buy advantages (regardless of how you percieve their impacts or whether or not they matter to you at all, buying a bonus to anything is an advantage over people who do not buy said bonus) in which case this shop may give you a chubby.
Ahem, back on subject. The money flow is not what you think it is. I guarantee you that I have a better understanding of how money works in this game than you do, but don't take my word for it if you don't want your illusions shattered. I actually like the way money flows because it makes each tier of currency matter more, but don't go thinking for a minute that gold is "easy" to get at lower levels. It is not unlikely that press people had access to stuff that plebians didn't, including methods of acquiring currency (with or without diregarding females).
probalem is, kids like you are what makes people.. as you discribe them "fan child". The hate you spew makes people defensive. You can say you are a fan, but when you go off on how evil a part of this game is that isnt even finialized yet, I mean, take a step back son. If someone who knew nothing about this game read your posts, they would never look any further.
You do know gold gotta come from somewhere, so if you cant make enough to buy the siege weapons, then it is a huge problem.
Watched alot of videos.. seems to me higher levels mean more money. I am sure all the exprieance you got getting to lvl 4 makes you an expert on lvl 50 money gain.
Comments
We've already seen for a fact that it's easy to get enough gold quite early in the game for WvW purposes, based simply on the press videos showing plenty of seige weapons and even fort upgrades (reinforced gates, for example, as well as caravan npc escorts). There was only a couple days available for the beta, so no real time to both grind and run WvW.
Simple observation.
Oderint, dum metuant.
We don't want any rationality here, thank you very much.i dont see any of the microtransactions as the problem people are having in the game, its the gem -> gold thing. that has nothing to do with the cash shop and i think is where people are getting hung up
saying the cash shop is p2w, people will look at the cash shop items and say there is nothing p2w in it.
If you state you have an problem with the gem -> gold process, thats a different story but IMO its still not a problem
True. However, that also reflects directly on gold-purchasing... if gold proves to be that restrictive to farm then good luck trying to get any significant amount in trade for gems. If the value for gold is high you simply won't get much for gems.
Also, everything you buy in WvW is throwaway. When the servers reset it doesn't matter how much gold you've pumped into things, >poof< it's all gone. The moment plant a blueprint for a seige weapon it's gone forever, even if you get a little use out of it. So WvW will definitely be a gold sink. Are people going to spend a lot of real world cash to flush down that sink for minimal buffs, for example, that only affect a small area of the map as long as the other two teams don't take that structure? How much will they cough into seige equipment which they may never even get a chance to use? Again, can't say until it's in practice.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Well that mechanic of gem->gold while have gold give advantages in-game is no accident. So it is most definately a cash shop issue in my opinion.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
If someone has the gold already to trade for gems if they wish, then all gems do is trade between people who purchases these minor defensive advantages. I can buy them myself at the keep, or I can trade the gold to you for gems and you can buy them.
Oderint, dum metuant.
How does an experience boost break the WvWvW? maybe a guy can only play 3hrs a day, so he buys a boost. When youre all cap level anyway, whats the matter? You have to BUY gems WITH gold. You cannot go to an NPC and transfer gems to gold, someone still has to farm the gold. I see nothing wrong with it. I may just buy 100gems just to laugh at you people.
Yeah, one player can buy advantages while another player has to grind for them. Not sure your point. It is a technical detail of whether gold is created or not but does not affect whether you can buy it with real life money or not. Gold sellers in other MMOs work under the same principle, although in those games you account can be banned for doing it...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I'm still waiting on the well detailed things on this shop that haven't been broken down yet.
I along with many others already gave so many reasons why this is not the case lol.
You want us or least me to just copy and paste what was already stated?
This is why I wish that leaked Colin Johnson post was able to just stay leaked, so many fasle statements.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Its like groundhog day here. Go educate yourself on the RvRvR system and the various gold-based advantages. Switching the argument to "EXP boosters" is exactly the tactic I discussed a few posts ago. We are not talking about EXP boosters when we are complaining about RvRvR pay2win...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Really? I hate this game? Holy shit, my first encounter with a hostile fanchild.
I actually really like this game. The mechanics and the flavor are excellent. I hate what they've done with the shop, though, and I'm on a crusade to get any advantage-granting items removed from it. If that means I hate the game in your eyes then so be it, but nothing could be farther from the truth.
I can tell you for a fact that from what precious little time I had playing this game last year the money situation was much slower than many other MMOs. Copper actually mattered for a long time. In most modern games I can hop into the highest tier of currency fairly quickly, but I didn't with GW2. In the demo time I was alotted, I reached level four, and if memory serves I had all of 6 silver at that point. Unless money gain has changed dramatically since then (and it hasn't if you look at the screenshots and video clips) then one gold will mean a hell of a lot in this game (which is a good thing). I strongly doubt you'd be able to legitimately obtain a gold piece before level 15 unless the economy is already matured (or inflated due to people buying advantages from the cash shop).
I also wouldn't take what the "reporters" on this website say as gospel. They're the same people that rate "bad" games highly and promised us SWTOR would be a super awesome game with super awesome story and super aswesome PvP. I am a gamer, first and foremost, and all I care about are quality games without cheesy shops that give people power for real-life money. I have absolutely no reason to lie to anyone on these boards. I don't care how cool or trollish you think I am. I'm here because I'm passionate about my hobby of choice, and particularly about this game. I want it to do well, but no matter how much I may like the game (and the company developing it) I will call out bullshit when I see it. The cash shop is just that no matter how much you want it to be the best thing since sliced bread... unless you like the idea of using real-life money to buy advantages (regardless of how you percieve their impacts or whether or not they matter to you at all, buying a bonus to anything is an advantage over people who do not buy said bonus) in which case this shop may give you a chubby.
Ahem, back on subject. The money flow is not what you think it is. I guarantee you that I have a better understanding of how money works in this game than you do, but don't take my word for it if you don't want your illusions shattered. I actually like the way money flows because it makes each tier of currency matter more, but don't go thinking for a minute that gold is "easy" to get at lower levels. It is not unlikely that press people had access to stuff that plebians didn't, including methods of acquiring currency (with or without diregarding females).
So I grind gold, trade to you for gems and buy a new bag slot or two, maybe a character slot... you in turn buy guild upgrades for a bit for defensive bonii in WvW, which I then to go WvW, hang around the keep your guild controls and share the bonii.
There's no technical details of whether or not gold's created... it is, but only from the drops and rewards I earned. None *poofs* into existence on the exchange of gems, so you're not creating any power. I already had that power, I traded it to you for gems to get something I wanted in return. This is win-win, not only for us, but the server as a whole.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Look I shit you not you actually are proving those you disagree with right.
Did you know that in order for gems to get gold, gold must be there?
Did you know that?
I don't think you get what that means. Period.
In conclusion this means that one must first have the gold, then go buy the gems, gems just don't get gold from nothing.
Do you really and I mean reallly see why this is actually against paying to get an advatange?
In this case that means it's going to take someone longer to get goold than someone who's getting gold and influence by playing.
Obviousely this contradicts your agreement with the op and you really just agreeing to agree.
The fact is that this is not an advantange by paying it's more so an advatange by playing.
So please understand what your agreeing with and please for the love of God, I played at an expo to, 10 silver by level 7, I do have friends as well as you do who are under nda, I do know what you've been talking about, it's not even true in itself, scrolls?
May the common sense be with you folk.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
It is a technical argument regarding the original creation of power. The fact one can grind for power to sell to the pay2win player does not change the fact that a player can pay2win. Sure, you can argue the player who doesn't pay2win is rewarded with a free character slot, but that doesn't change the fact that a player used real life money to buy an advantage.
Twisting the argument into technical details on where exactly this power is created is a red herring.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Any boost that gives any sort of advantage to actual gameplay is not "cosmetic"
Goggle wearers need to get in tune with reality and stop acting like it's no big deal. Sure these people aren't guaranteed to go around 1 shotting everyone, but they are getting gameplay advantages that would help them be more effective than they would be on a level playing field.
Also the principle behind it stinks after what anet used to promise about their cash shop.
Not that gw2 has much depth anyway, everyone will hit the skill ceiling pretty quickly and run around mindlessly using their limited skillbar.
ok lets structure this argument a bit better.
there are two groups here (main groups at least), im in group one btw
1. those who see pay to win as being when you ABSOLUTELY MUST buy stuff in the cash shop to remain competative (pve is pretty much non competative so no problem). and the advantages arent large enough to have anything more than a negligable effect even if the systems arent managed well (the seige stuff has limiters on it so it cant be overused and im fairly sure a siege golem isnt very good against anything but the keeps).
2. those who see pay to win as being the moment you can get even the slightest advantage over someone else in any way by paying extra money. which you shouldnt be calling pay to win, its more like pay for a slight advantage in areas that because of the way the game is made dont matter because your not taking anything away from or damaging another players experience in game. (unless you like gloating about your uber awesome stuff but then again this game wasnt made for that).
heres an idea if you have a problem with an advantage calling p4a or something because its not the same as being required to pay money to win or enjoy the majority of the game. then maybe the discussions here can get a little more civil as people understand eachother better.
(btw the people against paying for advantages, they said that this sort of thing would be in the game years ago.... so if your gonna complain ... i mean jeez...)
i know i missed something cant put my finger on it but whatever it is can be addressed later
Then you should understand why this isn't a problem. You do, I assume, understand that when you trade gems for gold you're trading to another person that already has the gold, yes? There's no creation of gold... gems only redistribute gold amongst the willing. I go farm/earn gold for awhile with my eyes on the prize of a new character slot. You buy gems with your eyes on the prize of my gold. I trade you my gold for your gems. I get my new slot, you get your gold. If gold's hard to come by, you won't get a whole lot of it for your gems. If it's easy to come buy, you may get notably more. But it's only gold that already exists in game. It's only getting redistributed.
Oderint, dum metuant.
The simple fact is that the game is still in beta and the cash shop is still covered by the NDA, even for the press. That means that whatever is in the shop now, is not final and will most likely be changed before release. This is what beta testing is and at this point it is impossible to say what will or will not be there at release.
As far as your numbered points go, I'm not going to comment on 2. since I'm not sure what RvRvR bonuses are but the rest of the stuff is trivial.
XP boosters mean very little as leveling does not mean much in GW2. In PvP you're boosted to level 80, so the EXP booster means nothing there. In PvE you get scaled down to the zone you're in. In otherwords you won't be able to rush to 80 and then run back to a level 20 zone and demolish everything in sight. When you zone into a level 20 zone as a level 80, the game lowers your stats to that of a level 20 character. Again, EXP boosters mean very little. Moreover, since leveling in GW2 has a very shallow curve and you gain levels at the same rate, there really isn't much grinding. It will probably take you the same amount of time to go from 79-80 as it did to go from 39-40. All an EXP booster will give you is a slightly faster way to progress through zones, which will actually be detrimental at launch since PvE revolves around cooperation and if you rush to max level, you'll have no one to play with.
Repair bot is a very situational item. It's a one time use repair tool which you're only going to use when you absolutely have to. Will it be a game changer? Probably not. I mean if you wiped enough times to warrant the use of a repair bot, chances are you're not going to progress much further anyway.
As far as the insult items like those keys, from what I hear, they will be available for purchase from vendors and possibly drop from mobs. This is pure conjecture on my part but if those chests are anything like the chests in GW1, they will probably contain the same type of gear you can get from vendors, mob drops and quest rewards. Obviously we have to wait for more info on these chests and keys.
/e sticks his head in to see if the typical anti shop rant is going on...
/e sees that it is
/e leaves hoping these people really wont play GW2 because of it so the game will be a much better place without their epeen wagging being in it
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Well, I wouldn't have an issue with your two categories if you dropped the purely opinionated "negligable effect" and change it to "advantage" and if you dropped the purely opinionated "even the slightest advantage" to "advantage."
When a beta testers says the advantage can let you survive "2-3 more hits" or if they recommend that you "bring more people" or to "avoid that keep" then I think calling this "negligable" is dishonest.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Pay to win what? You haz my gold. I haz your gems. You won? I think I won... I earned a character slot without spending a real world dime. You think you won, you paid for buffs for your keep (which hopefully doesn't get taken from you the moment you finish paying for them). Where's the pay to win, where's the power?
The fact remains, you're not buying something not already in the game, my gold. Whatever "power" that gold provides already exists, and it's MINE, ALL MINE! Until, of course, I trade it to you for gems. Where's the pay to win? Who won? Is it merely subjective now... I think I won when I'm creating that new alt and you think you won when you paid some of that gold for a 12 hour buff?
Oderint, dum metuant.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I'm guessing the OP and anybody who thinks he has a point never played DAOC.
There may not have been an official cash shop in DAOC but there was certainly a thriving gold farmer business. This mattered for level 50 siege weapons not at all because they didn't cost enough gold to matter to an active level 50 character.
You're not buying siege for 1v1 fights anyway. You're buying them to advance your server in the WvWvW combat. Even if it were an advantage to your server that some player bought gems, converted them to gold, and used the gold to buy siege, almost certainly somebody on the other servers would be able to do likewise. And again if the prices of siege weapons are set so high that it actually matters that you can buy gems in the cash shop, convert them to gold, and use the gold to buy siege weapons, then the entire WvW system is either going to fail or quickly be adjusted in one of the early patches so the prices are more reasonable and hence the cash shop is not a factor..
If anything DAOC was more P2W than GW 2 appears to be, because you definitely could buy plat (illegal according to the TOS) and use it to buy ML 10 and other high end items that gave you real advantages in RvR combat. That doesn't appear to be the case at this point for GW 2. It won't have uber powerful raid items that sell for hundreds of thousands of gold in the trading post which would then give players who could buy gems and convert them to gold an advantage.
Oh and you could use your real life cash in DAOC to buy multiple accounts to have buff bots too. As far as I know, GW 2 won't have those either.
Yet despite all that RvR in DAOC was great fun for many thousands of players for years. If GW 2 can match that level of fun in its first few years with or without a P2W cash shop, it will be a huge success.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
The pay2win is the fact that real life money was injected into the trade. It really isn't that complicated and twisting the topic to a theoretical "origin of power" argument doesn't confuse me. It is very simple.
Real life money -> in-game advantage = pay2win
That equation doesn't change no matter how you twist the argument around "origin of power" technicalities. I understand your "origin of power" and the net-sum argument, but it really is irrelevant to this discussion.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
probalem is, kids like you are what makes people.. as you discribe them "fan child". The hate you spew makes people defensive. You can say you are a fan, but when you go off on how evil a part of this game is that isnt even finialized yet, I mean, take a step back son. If someone who knew nothing about this game read your posts, they would never look any further.
You do know gold gotta come from somewhere, so if you cant make enough to buy the siege weapons, then it is a huge problem.
Watched alot of videos.. seems to me higher levels mean more money. I am sure all the exprieance you got getting to lvl 4 makes you an expert on lvl 50 money gain.