There is no endgame like many have said. If the end can not be the beginning because that would mean there's zero character growth in the game. It is a nice spin to twist the complete lack of endgame into making people believe they have solved the endgame puzzle.
If endgame starts at lvl 1 you don't have to progress to endgame then get bored of the game. You can just skip a step and get bored of the game.
If the end can not be the beginning because that would mean there's zero character growth in the game.
Would you care to elaborate on what you mean here? A non-linear game, like a sandbox, has no real end. Clearly, we have sandbox games with rich character development. Conversely, some games have very superficial or vapid character development with a well-defined beginning and end game.
There is no endgame like many have said. If the end can not be the beginning because that would mean there's zero character growth in the game. It is a nice spin to twist the complete lack of endgame into making people believe they have solved the endgame puzzle.
If endgame starts at lvl 1 you don't have to progress to endgame then get bored of the game. You can just skip a step and get bored of the game.
Endgame is an illusion, a term implemented years ago for an archaic system. It implies that, when you reach the cap level, the content must be something completely different. Endgame has gone on to be defined as repetitive content. Raids, "legacy systems, all things that give the illusion that something different is happening, but instead they just make you repeat playing the same content.
When GW2 says no endgame, they mean there's not going to be repetitve content at the end , instead they are going to provide 10x the number of quests, and activities at level 80 than other games will. Because they are not stuck in a raiding system, they can produce more dynamic content. From the beginning, the game is about adventuring, and it won't change to "gear grind" just because you've reached max level.
Character growth is not measured in items and stats, but in how your character has progressed in the game. How many achievements you have, how much karma you have produced. This is more important than gaining another .5 percent critical hit chance with fire attacks (yay).
I am a Journey is greater than the destination type of player, and it sounds like there isn't much of a journey in GW2....No gear grinding, not many levels, and end game starts at level 1 are really not things I want to hear....
What?
Journey > Destination but you want a gear grind?
80 is "not many levels"?
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I have heard of this elusive "End game". Alas in some of the games I have played, there have been a few select zealotswho preached the amazing quality of the games "endgame"...
Sadly I got hit by the reality of overwhelming grind and boredom and never got to experience the "Endgame Nirvana". (Guess I saw endgame though: Grind + boredom = game ended right there!)
Once you enter the game you are one step closer to "endgame". If the game is boring to me, the trip to endgame is a short one.
Oh wait... OP was talking about the EQ and WoW paradigm? First 2 paragraphs apply (and yes I found both of them fine games but completely unappealing to me.)
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
I am a Journey is greater than the destination type of player, and it sounds like there isn't much of a journey in GW2....No gear grinding, not many levels, and end game starts at level 1 are really not things I want to hear....
I agree with your first sentiment. I prefer the journey. When I get to a point in a game where I feel like I've accomplished whatever I'm supposed to accomplish I lose interest quickly. Strangely, though, it's that same preference that as drawn me towards GW2. This is a game with no destination. You pick it up, and you journey.
There is no endgame like many have said. If the end can not be the beginning because that would mean there's zero character growth in the game. It is a nice spin to twist the complete lack of endgame into making people believe they have solved the endgame puzzle.
If endgame starts at lvl 1 you don't have to progress to endgame then get bored of the game. You can just skip a step and get bored of the game.
Endgame is an illusion, a term implemented years ago for an archaic system. It implies that, when you reach the cap level, the content must be something completely different. Endgame has gone on to be defined as repetitive content. Raids, "legacy systems, all things that give the illusion that something different is happening, but instead they just make you repeat playing the same content.
When GW2 says no endgame, they mean there's not going to be repetitve content at the end , instead they are going to provide 10x the number of quests, and activities at level 80 than other games will. Because they are not stuck in a raiding system, they can produce more dynamic content. From the beginning, the game is about adventuring, and it won't change to "gear grind" just because you've reached max level.
Character growth is not measured in items and stats, but in how your character has progressed in the game. How many achievements you have, how much karma you have produced. This is more important than gaining another .5 percent critical hit chance with fire attacks (yay).
People like these systems, as proven by the millions still playing WoW, SWTOR, and countless F2P games that follow the level->gear->kill harder boss for better gear-> repeat last step indefinitely cycle. They are clear objectives for people to try and achieve.
A no endgame design is a sandbox design like one closer to that of EVE. Endgame in EVE is anything the player wants it to be and can start at any moment the player decides it starts. I haven't followed GW2 too closely but I don't think they are trying to write off their game as a sandbox are they?
When we think of what "endgame" has come to mean. It represents a fundamental change in the game itself. Basically, It had boiled down to The game you have to play in order to get to the game you want to play. So, what does that mean for GW2? ANet has tried to cut out the "have to" and replace it all with the "want to". What remains to be seen is the long term effectiveness of this attempt. I hope it's successful.
I am a Journey is greater than the destination type of player, and it sounds like there isn't much of a journey in GW2....No gear grinding, not many levels, and end game starts at level 1 are really not things I want to hear....
What?
Journey > Destination but you want a gear grind?
80 is "not many levels"?
I don't even think that guy knows what that means. IF you enjoy the journey then it won't matter what levels you get or what items you get. 80 levels (certainly the most levels that I have ever played in any MMO) - and no level grind - 2 levels for every level). And gear grind is the opposite of the journey, gear grind is stopping off for weeks to repeat he same dungeon or raid for a 25 percent chance to get the helmet you need to do the next dungeon. All the while the actual jounrey or story you wre on just stops while you do this. There's no real story reason for doing this, you're doing this soley for mechanical reasons. Because the game mechanics of the next dungeon require you have the set of armor in there.
Tier 2, Tier 3, I get so frustrated with some games I have just stopped playing. DCU sounded great, except when the armor got repetitively insane. Not even sure why superheros have armor, you'd think they'd come out with a more logical system. IN any case, this won't be a problem with guild wars 2. And if you enjoy that stuff, there are 100s of of mmos out there. As a matter of fact, GW2 is the first game i've seen with no gear grind. So why bash on this game when you have so many choices. It's like going into the gay bar to bash gays, when there are 100 other bars you can go into and have a good time.
Endgame in EVE is anything the player wants it to be and can start at any moment the player decides it starts.
This is precisely what ArenaNet meant by endgame starting at lvl 1. Your level isn't going to necessarily prevent you from enjoying things like WvW, etc. The content scales with the player.
Others have mentioned these already but as this is a social media I'll pitch in with my spam.
It means this to me (and this is the reason I'm looking forward to it with the reservation I mention later on) - I'll be dying in meaningful PvP from day 1 - I have all game content to enjoy when I'm maxed out
Now, the flipside of the GW2 approach is that it will succeed or fail based on the quality of the core gameplay. Based on what I've seen and experienced in GW1 I am hopeful but we don't really know until some time after the release. Nevermind what the bigots and naysayers say in these forums.
Looking forward to stabbing you in game next weekend:)
EDIT: I know what paragraps are but apparently mmorpg.com or Apple/iPad don't.
People like these systems, as proven by the millions still playing WoW, SWTOR, and countless F2P games that follow the level->gear->kill harder boss for better gear-> repeat last step indefinitely cycle. They are clear objectives for people to try and achieve.
A no endgame design is a sandbox design like one closer to that of EVE. Endgame in EVE is anything the player wants it to be and can start at any moment the player decides it starts. I haven't followed GW2 too closely but I don't think they are trying to write off their game as a sandbox are they?
Have you noticed that the games that you mentioned are having retention issues? How does one interpret this?
Again, going back to WoW as it is the MMO most familiar to many, with the introduction of Looking For Raid (LFR) people are able to see and consume all the game's content in a matter of weeks. They then grind it until they get all the "right" gear. Then they do it on alts. Then they're bored, all the while paying $15/month seeing no new content for 8-12 months. Why do you think WoW is adding Pokemon and Harvest Moon to their game?
Yes, there will still be a 1% group that works on hard modes, but let's be real, that group is a dying breed (for better or worse) and no one is really making games for them any more.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
There is no endgame like many have said. If the end can not be the beginning because that would mean there's zero character growth in the game. It is a nice spin to twist the complete lack of endgame into making people believe they have solved the endgame puzzle.
If endgame starts at lvl 1 you don't have to progress to endgame then get bored of the game. You can just skip a step and get bored of the game.
Endgame is an illusion, a term implemented years ago for an archaic system. It implies that, when you reach the cap level, the content must be something completely different. Endgame has gone on to be defined as repetitive content. Raids, "legacy systems, all things that give the illusion that something different is happening, but instead they just make you repeat playing the same content.
When GW2 says no endgame, they mean there's not going to be repetitve content at the end , instead they are going to provide 10x the number of quests, and activities at level 80 than other games will. Because they are not stuck in a raiding system, they can produce more dynamic content. From the beginning, the game is about adventuring, and it won't change to "gear grind" just because you've reached max level.
Character growth is not measured in items and stats, but in how your character has progressed in the game. How many achievements you have, how much karma you have produced. This is more important than gaining another .5 percent critical hit chance with fire attacks (yay).
People like these systems, as proven by the millions still playing WoW, SWTOR, and countless F2P games that follow the level->gear->kill harder boss for better gear-> repeat last step indefinitely cycle. They are clear objectives for people to try and achieve.
A no endgame design is a sandbox design like one closer to that of EVE. Endgame in EVE is anything the player wants it to be and can start at any moment the player decides it starts. I haven't followed GW2 too closely but I don't think they are trying to write off their game as a sandbox are they?
Its not that people like these systems, its more on the basis that there isn't any other alternative. Endgame is still Endgame in every other MMO available currently. The only main differences between them are the varity of the Grinds, the different methods of the grinds, the different paths to the grind.
What is being changed by GW2 is that all the contents that you passed by while leveling is actually still available to you as actual content. Level 20 dungeon is still level 20 dungeon when you are level 80
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
It means their marketing department is smarter than most.
It is a great concept about a complete experience throughout the levelling process. How realistic it is remains to be proven through gameplay in a non-beta state.
It means their marketing department is smarter than most.
It is a great concept about a complete experience throughout the levelling process. How realistic it is remains to be proven through gameplay in a non-beta state.
Lol...
The 'marketing' for GW2 has been almost non-existant. There's been some, but if you look at games like TOR or WoW, it's nowhere near that lvl of marketted hype. Most of the stuff people have seen for this game, have been either fan's gameplay videos, press gameplay videos, or people talking about the game. There's been no CG trailers, or mass commercials, etc. It's all fan driven from people who like their design philosophy, or have played the game and know that it's fun.
That said, game design is completely different from marketting. Making you're game have features that are popular is not marketting, it's making a damn good product.
- Again, it baffles me that people have such a hard time understanding this, when there are real life examples of such a thing working staring them in the face. The most obvious of which being GW1.
Sound like smart reuse of game areas, quests, mob etc. All games does it, nothing new in that idea, but offcourse how it is used is important. And yeah a statement like that is marketing, you can't draw any specific conclusions from it.
It means I want to hurt myself and others because the idea that you can enjoy an MMO at level 1 is so novel and ground breaking that they have to advertise for it.
1. Low-level PvE-content will include epic battles that "feel" like endgame-content.
2. Even when you return to low-level-areas with your high-level char ( maybe you just like to explore everything you have not already seen or you want to help a friend), everything is still challenging and you are rewarded.
3. You can experience the No. 1 endgame-content (WvWvW) from the very beginning.
4. You can enjoy the game at the pace you like and do not feel like you have to rush to endlevel, in order to begin with the "real" game.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
1. Low-level PvE-content will include epic battles that "feel" like endgame-content.
2. Even when you return to low-level-areas with your high-level char ( maybe you just like to explore everything you have not already seen or you want to help a friend), everything is still challenging and you are rewarded.
3. You can experience the No. 1 endgame-content (WvWvW) from the very beginning.
4. You can enjoy the game at the pace you like and do not feel like you have to rush to endlevel, in order to begin with the "real" game.
This is the true definition of "Endgame Starts at Level 1" IMO.
Basically, most or all of the content (PvE and PvP) is challenging even for the advanced player. There is no "endgame" there is just "game".
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Anet has made the claims that in GW2 "Endgame Starts at Level 1"
I guess this can be interpreted in many different ways, especially with the removal of the scaling up feature.
But what does the statement "Endgame Starts at Level 1" means to you?
To me it means higer level players will know how to play their characters because they can't just power lvl through just to mess things up in the end. :-)
Comments
It means ArenaNet saw through terrible design.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
There is no endgame like many have said. If the end can not be the beginning because that would mean there's zero character growth in the game. It is a nice spin to twist the complete lack of endgame into making people believe they have solved the endgame puzzle.
If endgame starts at lvl 1 you don't have to progress to endgame then get bored of the game. You can just skip a step and get bored of the game.
Would you care to elaborate on what you mean here? A non-linear game, like a sandbox, has no real end. Clearly, we have sandbox games with rich character development. Conversely, some games have very superficial or vapid character development with a well-defined beginning and end game.
Endgame is an illusion, a term implemented years ago for an archaic system. It implies that, when you reach the cap level, the content must be something completely different. Endgame has gone on to be defined as repetitive content. Raids, "legacy systems, all things that give the illusion that something different is happening, but instead they just make you repeat playing the same content.
When GW2 says no endgame, they mean there's not going to be repetitve content at the end , instead they are going to provide 10x the number of quests, and activities at level 80 than other games will. Because they are not stuck in a raiding system, they can produce more dynamic content. From the beginning, the game is about adventuring, and it won't change to "gear grind" just because you've reached max level.
Character growth is not measured in items and stats, but in how your character has progressed in the game. How many achievements you have, how much karma you have produced. This is more important than gaining another .5 percent critical hit chance with fire attacks (yay).
What?
Journey > Destination but you want a gear grind?
80 is "not many levels"?
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I have heard of this elusive "End game". Alas in some of the games I have played, there have been a few select zealotswho preached the amazing quality of the games "endgame"...
Sadly I got hit by the reality of overwhelming grind and boredom and never got to experience the "Endgame Nirvana". (Guess I saw endgame though: Grind + boredom = game ended right there!)
Once you enter the game you are one step closer to "endgame". If the game is boring to me, the trip to endgame is a short one.
Oh wait... OP was talking about the EQ and WoW paradigm? First 2 paragraphs apply (and yes I found both of them fine games but completely unappealing to me.)
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
I agree with your first sentiment. I prefer the journey. When I get to a point in a game where I feel like I've accomplished whatever I'm supposed to accomplish I lose interest quickly. Strangely, though, it's that same preference that as drawn me towards GW2. This is a game with no destination. You pick it up, and you journey.
People like these systems, as proven by the millions still playing WoW, SWTOR, and countless F2P games that follow the level->gear->kill harder boss for better gear-> repeat last step indefinitely cycle. They are clear objectives for people to try and achieve.
A no endgame design is a sandbox design like one closer to that of EVE. Endgame in EVE is anything the player wants it to be and can start at any moment the player decides it starts. I haven't followed GW2 too closely but I don't think they are trying to write off their game as a sandbox are they?
When we think of what "endgame" has come to mean. It represents a fundamental change in the game itself. Basically, It had boiled down to The game you have to play in order to get to the game you want to play. So, what does that mean for GW2? ANet has tried to cut out the "have to" and replace it all with the "want to". What remains to be seen is the long term effectiveness of this attempt. I hope it's successful.
I don't even think that guy knows what that means. IF you enjoy the journey then it won't matter what levels you get or what items you get. 80 levels (certainly the most levels that I have ever played in any MMO) - and no level grind - 2 levels for every level). And gear grind is the opposite of the journey, gear grind is stopping off for weeks to repeat he same dungeon or raid for a 25 percent chance to get the helmet you need to do the next dungeon. All the while the actual jounrey or story you wre on just stops while you do this. There's no real story reason for doing this, you're doing this soley for mechanical reasons. Because the game mechanics of the next dungeon require you have the set of armor in there.
Tier 2, Tier 3, I get so frustrated with some games I have just stopped playing. DCU sounded great, except when the armor got repetitively insane. Not even sure why superheros have armor, you'd think they'd come out with a more logical system. IN any case, this won't be a problem with guild wars 2. And if you enjoy that stuff, there are 100s of of mmos out there. As a matter of fact, GW2 is the first game i've seen with no gear grind. So why bash on this game when you have so many choices. It's like going into the gay bar to bash gays, when there are 100 other bars you can go into and have a good time.
This is precisely what ArenaNet meant by endgame starting at lvl 1. Your level isn't going to necessarily prevent you from enjoying things like WvW, etc. The content scales with the player.
You have just described 99.9% of the topics on this site.
It means this to me (and this is the reason I'm looking forward to it with the reservation I mention later on)
- I'll be dying in meaningful PvP from day 1
- I have all game content to enjoy when I'm maxed out
Now, the flipside of the GW2 approach is that it will succeed or fail based on the quality of the core gameplay. Based on what I've seen and experienced in GW1 I am hopeful but we don't really know until some time after the release. Nevermind what the bigots and naysayers say in these forums.
Looking forward to stabbing you in game next weekend:)
EDIT: I know what paragraps are but apparently mmorpg.com or Apple/iPad don't.
Have you noticed that the games that you mentioned are having retention issues? How does one interpret this?
Again, going back to WoW as it is the MMO most familiar to many, with the introduction of Looking For Raid (LFR) people are able to see and consume all the game's content in a matter of weeks. They then grind it until they get all the "right" gear. Then they do it on alts. Then they're bored, all the while paying $15/month seeing no new content for 8-12 months. Why do you think WoW is adding Pokemon and Harvest Moon to their game?
Yes, there will still be a 1% group that works on hard modes, but let's be real, that group is a dying breed (for better or worse) and no one is really making games for them any more.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Agreed, I'd forgotten they had talked about this until they mentioned it had been removed - at which point I was greatly relieved.
Also, I really love that signature image of yours. Priceless. (Although "Dady" has 3 D's and not 2.)
Its not that people like these systems, its more on the basis that there isn't any other alternative. Endgame is still Endgame in every other MMO available currently. The only main differences between them are the varity of the Grinds, the different methods of the grinds, the different paths to the grind.
What is being changed by GW2 is that all the contents that you passed by while leveling is actually still available to you as actual content. Level 20 dungeon is still level 20 dungeon when you are level 80
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Charlie goes to candy mountain!
---
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
It means their marketing department is smarter than most.
It is a great concept about a complete experience throughout the levelling process. How realistic it is remains to be proven through gameplay in a non-beta state.
Lol...
The 'marketing' for GW2 has been almost non-existant. There's been some, but if you look at games like TOR or WoW, it's nowhere near that lvl of marketted hype. Most of the stuff people have seen for this game, have been either fan's gameplay videos, press gameplay videos, or people talking about the game. There's been no CG trailers, or mass commercials, etc. It's all fan driven from people who like their design philosophy, or have played the game and know that it's fun.
That said, game design is completely different from marketting. Making you're game have features that are popular is not marketting, it's making a damn good product.
- Again, it baffles me that people have such a hard time understanding this, when there are real life examples of such a thing working staring them in the face. The most obvious of which being GW1.
Sound like smart reuse of game areas, quests, mob etc. All games does it, nothing new in that idea, but offcourse how it is used is important. And yeah a statement like that is marketing, you can't draw any specific conclusions from it.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
It means I want to hurt myself and others because the idea that you can enjoy an MMO at level 1 is so novel and ground breaking that they have to advertise for it.
It means several things:
1. Low-level PvE-content will include epic battles that "feel" like endgame-content.
2. Even when you return to low-level-areas with your high-level char ( maybe you just like to explore everything you have not already seen or you want to help a friend), everything is still challenging and you are rewarded.
3. You can experience the No. 1 endgame-content (WvWvW) from the very beginning.
4. You can enjoy the game at the pace you like and do not feel like you have to rush to endlevel, in order to begin with the "real" game.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
This is the true definition of "Endgame Starts at Level 1" IMO.
Basically, most or all of the content (PvE and PvP) is challenging even for the advanced player. There is no "endgame" there is just "game".
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
To me it means higer level players will know how to play their characters because they can't just power lvl through just to mess things up in the end. :-)