It's not like Swtor, its way less linear and corridory, there's more variety in quests, and quests you just stumble upon while exploring.
Yeah, you can run around and find the quests, I get that, but it's still too focused on simple themepark questing and little else. Fromt that standpoint, there is very little replayability. Once you have taken a character through this mystery, what will be left? That is the syndrome I am speaking of in regards to TOR. Ragnar's team has done a much better job of presenting this themepark than Bioware did, but at the end of the day, it's the same thing. A story progression shoved down your throat, questionable replayability, and too light on the importance of player characters, personal story, social and RP elements.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
In my case pvp and filling out the skill wheel and crafting all the gear I need to compliment my pvp decks
Yeah. I've heard that song before: SWTOR. Good luck to you, friend.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The syndrome you speak off, applies to ALL themeparks, unless you like progression raiding and are one of the 8% or whatever it is of players in progression raiding guilds. But even those guys have no content for months between updates. But that's grind as is your minigames for grinding out pvp sets.
Or you have some sort of persistent pvp setup and outdoor pve events which feel less grind. Both of which tsw has.
Swtor pvp is just grind mini games for tokens and the stupidly designed ilum that is now depreciated (programmer talk for scrapped, ignored and never to be worked on)
Tsw has an end game rvr zone, with another in the works. Although they need to pit this in the beta imo.
As I have said, I am people like you. I'm those people who have been following this game since at least 2007 when it was officially announced (and was aware of it before then, when it was called Cabal).
The problem is that the whole presentation is just too superficial, and will quickly get boring. I haven't seen much in the way of social or RP features yet (maybe there are that I'm not aware of), and if London is basically complete, this doesn't bode well for the hub cities as places for people to really get into character and enjoy the game.
They are on the right track, but it's leaning to far towards simplicity and themepark, and not enough toward atmosphere, social, RP, etc. In other words, this would be a great idea for a game that is more themepark/sandbox hybrid, or at least one that is more character building / RP / crafting heavy. As it is now, it's not enough of anything to have a real identity, IMO.
Don't let you initial impressions fool you. I have enjoyed my beta time, but I also know how to look around for those things that are going to keep the world interesting beyond themepark quests, and so far I'm not seeing it.
Wait until you get deeper into the game. The starter-areas are designed this way, so that you can get a grip of the game without being forced to socialize. This will drastically change in some of the other areas tho.
And for RP, well... this is unfortunately no sandbox and no P&P-RPG, so it won't be something to enjoy if your main-interest is roleplaying. You're following a predefined story.
If that's the case, then this game is going to suffer from SWTOR syndrome. Replayability will be a joke, and people will leave in droves after they get tired of having a story driven down their throats the first time, which for me was after about two weeks.
I really don't understand how anyone thinks having only a main story in an MMORPG is a good idea. It works for a single player RPG, but in an MMORPG, the story should be more determined by the players interacting with the game world in any way they want.
Then again, what we are talking about here is the same trap SWTOR fell into as I mentioned above. Too bad. They will probably make their money back on the game, but it will be as forgettable as TOR will be when it runs its course.
There are six type of quests in the game. Only one of them is the main story line. There is also a robust achievement system and things to strive for. For instance, there is a deck system where you can work toward fulfilling the goals of the deck. Let's say you want to end up a witch hunter. You can build and acquire certain skills to that end. Once you have completed the requirement it unlocks the "witch hunter" stuff like the special outfit, etc.
The syndrome you speak off, applies to ALL themeparks, unless you like progression raiding and are one of the 8% or whatever it is of players in progression raiding guilds. But even those guys have no content for months between updates. But that's grind as is your minigames for grinding out pvp sets.
Or you have some sort of persistent pvp setup and outdoor pve events which feel less grind. Both of which tsw has.
This is the main problem. I believe trying to make this game a simple themepark is a mistake, especially one that is going to feature a main story arc as central gameplay. This type of game did not attract simple themepark players from day one. It attracted a whole different crowd of people who are going to be completely disappointed in this game upon release, IMO.
As I said, it may do fine as a niche game, and earn some money, but I think it has just as much chance of tanking outright unless they start making the experience richer. Combat is NOT this game's strong point, and combat is KEY for a standard themepark design. This is one of the main reasons people are having fun in GW2, and also a good reason why many people hate SWTOR. The combat is fun and engaging in GW2, whereas my experience with combat in TSW is that it is boring, and somewhat ugly to experience. This isn't likely to thrill anyone.
An example was my character using pistols this last weekend. I got several levels in, and the thing I liked the least about the game was combat. It was so slow and dull that I absolutely hated it, and pistols could be a really fun weapon set. I watched other classes too. It was weak.
Don't take my comments has TSW Hate, because I don't hate it. On the contrary, I would love to see it succeed.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
It's not like Swtor, its way less linear and corridory, there's more variety in quests, and quests you just stumble upon while exploring.
Yeah, you can run around and find the quests, I get that, but it's still too focused on simple themepark questing and little else. Fromt that standpoint, there is very little replayability. Once you have taken a character through this mystery, what will be left? That is the syndrome I am speaking of in regards to TOR. Ragnar's team has done a much better job of presenting this themepark than Bioware did, but at the end of the day, it's the same thing. A story progression shoved down your throat, questionable replayability, and too light on the importance of player characters, personal story, social and RP elements.
Thing is, the current new themepark MMO's really don't have a lot of features less than for example a WoW did, the number of core features are about the same.
You're saying that this isn't enough anymore, however MMO history has proven that those features were enough to keep millions of players playing WoW for years, even if they might have reached level cap within a month or 2,3. If what you said was true, that themepark features aren't sufficient for longevity, then people would never have kept playing WoW after the first months, yet fact is they did.
So, it seems to me that what you're saying is that players have changed compared to 6-7 years and that themepark features don't have longterm appeal anymore where as years back they were good enough for retention and longevity. Or you're missing some primary motivation of players in your viewpoint what kept people playing in those supposedly short term themepark MMO's, something that transcends the seemingly little replayability of themepark features.
It's not like Swtor, its way less linear and corridory, there's more variety in quests, and quests you just stumble upon while exploring.
Yeah, you can run around and find the quests, I get that, but it's still too focused on simple themepark questing and little else. Fromt that standpoint, there is very little replayability. Once you have taken a character through this mystery, what will be left? That is the syndrome I am speaking of in regards to TOR. Ragnar's team has done a much better job of presenting this themepark than Bioware did, but at the end of the day, it's the same thing. A story progression shoved down your throat, questionable replayability, and too light on the importance of player characters, personal story, social and RP elements.
Thing is, the current new themepark MMO's really don't have a lot of features less than for example a WoW did, the number of core features are about the same.
You're saying that this isn't enough anymore, however MMO history has proven that those features were enough to keep millions of players playing WoW for years, even if they might have reached level cap within a month or 2,3. If what you said was true, that themepark features aren't sufficient for longevity, then people would never have kept playing WoW after the first months, yet fact is they did.
So, it seems to me that what you're saying is that players have changed compared to 6-7 years and that themepark features don't have longterm appeal anymore where as years back they were good enough for retention and longevity. Or you're missing some primary motivation of players in your viewpoint what kept people playing in those supposedly short term themepark MMO's, something that transcends the seemingly little replayability of themepark features.
Yes and no. There is room for boring, run of the mill themepark games, but I believe the majority of MMO players who came to this genre with WoW, or long before, are sick and tired of the same old themepark games. There will always be room for this style of game, and they will make significant money, but to pretend that this market is where all the money exists is a mistake.
What I'm seeing now, and I've spent a long time playing these games, talking with people, reading articles and so on, is that there is a growing, and rather large segment of gamers out there that are asking for something more along the lines of a sandbox / themepark hybrid type of game that gives them modern day questing, along with some deeper and more social features. I also think there is a lot more interest in sandboxes in general than there was five years ago, but that no one has successfully released a modern sandbox game. ArchAge is getting a lot of attention despite the fact that there is no NA publisher yet. That game may be gold if it gets one.
My problem with this particular game, is that it should never have been designed as a pure themepark. The more I play it, the more it feels like a bit better version of SWTOR, though with worse combat. if that's possible. This game is a perfect candidate for a hybrid type of play style where those who want to play themepark only features can do so, but those people who want to spend more time developing an in-game community have the tools to do so.
I'll admit that I wanted to see a lot more in this game in the way of tools for building myself a very interesting character who could lurk in the shadows and become a part of motivations outside of the game's story progressions. As I said before, all of the previous years of discussion over at the official forums indicated that people were very much interested in building deep and interesting characters that would play a larger role in the game world than just group questing or instances. Right now I'm seeing nothing in the way of features that will cater to this crowd and on the other hand, I think it's pretty weak as a pure themepark when you compare it to something like GW2. For starters, combat needs a lot of work to become exciting enough for people to really care about it.
It's all in the eye of the beholder, of course. Maybe a game like WoD will eventually fulfill the hopes many of us had for TSW. I don't know, but I do feel that there is room for a game like the one I and many others envisioned this one to be. The question for Funcom is, are the players who would like the current structure of this game already playing SWTOR? I guess we will find out soon.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
TSW is targetting people like me. People who are tired of levelbased item-grinders like WoW, where you're ending up with atleast 3 toons (a tank, a healer and a DD). TSW let's you play the game to it's full extend with a single character, so people can actually recognize me, because there's only one character of mine and not a dozen.
With the current character creation system there won't be a dozen characters just like you, there will be hundreds. All with the same height and build. A few variations of heads [all fugly]. Hundreds of clones in [possibly] different clothes.
You don't get it, do you? I'm speakin gof me as a person others can remember based on my name.
Lol. Yes, only 1 of the hundreds of clones will have your unique handle.
@MindTrigger: you make some valid points, but I also wonder how representative the sentiment of MMO gamers really is that can be found on sites like this and other MMO sites. I think there's a large bulk of MMO gamers that couldn't care less about general MMO forums. Heck, I didn't even care myself about MMO sites like this one even if I knew they existed and even if I'd been playing MMO's for 10+ years now. The official and guild forums were enough for me.
For example, if I had to base my perception on MMO sites like this one and consider it representative for the general MMO playerbase, then I'd be utterly and completely stunned and baffled that WoW still has 10 million players. Let it be like 4 million in the west, even then.
Based on the general vibe and sentiment I glean from sites like this one, I'd have given WoW 2-3 million in total and severely decreasing all the time. Yet, reality seems to be nowhere near what I could surmise of sites like this one.
Which leads me to believe that sites like this attract a specific subset of MMO gamers, namely the ones who are either frustrated or don't have an MMORPG they can lose themselves in currently. Basically, the currently disgruntled, which isn't necessarily representative for the whole of the MMO playerbase.
If I look at myself, I did exactly the same: even if I knew that sites like this one existed, I only started visiting it more frequently when current MMO's I played and official and guild forums weren't enough anymore to sate my MMO needs. The 9+ years before that, I was perfectly happy with playing my MMO's and visiting merely the official, guild and other forums related to this or that MMO I was playing during that time.
Agreed, and this game is certainly not a WoW clone. I mean hell if we are being really honest with ourselves than GW2 is a themepark but no one rants that it's a WoW clone. TSW has a unique formula, no doubt and as theme parks go it's better than many many many others. I hope that the adventure style quest is carried over and evolved, because it's certainly great (and at times frustrating as hell lol).
Other than a portion of the quests that are "investigative" and require the use of the environment to solve them (or just yelling out in general chat), what makes TSW unique?
How unique does it have to be to not be a WoW clone, why can't it just be called a themepark? Is Call of Duty a Medal of Honor clone in that case?
Comments
Yeah, you can run around and find the quests, I get that, but it's still too focused on simple themepark questing and little else. Fromt that standpoint, there is very little replayability. Once you have taken a character through this mystery, what will be left? That is the syndrome I am speaking of in regards to TOR. Ragnar's team has done a much better job of presenting this themepark than Bioware did, but at the end of the day, it's the same thing. A story progression shoved down your throat, questionable replayability, and too light on the importance of player characters, personal story, social and RP elements.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Yeah. I've heard that song before: SWTOR. Good luck to you, friend.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Or you have some sort of persistent pvp setup and outdoor pve events which feel less grind. Both of which tsw has.
Tsw has an end game rvr zone, with another in the works. Although they need to pit this in the beta imo.
There are six type of quests in the game. Only one of them is the main story line. There is also a robust achievement system and things to strive for. For instance, there is a deck system where you can work toward fulfilling the goals of the deck. Let's say you want to end up a witch hunter. You can build and acquire certain skills to that end. Once you have completed the requirement it unlocks the "witch hunter" stuff like the special outfit, etc.
There are also dungeons and 3 faction PVP.
This is the main problem. I believe trying to make this game a simple themepark is a mistake, especially one that is going to feature a main story arc as central gameplay. This type of game did not attract simple themepark players from day one. It attracted a whole different crowd of people who are going to be completely disappointed in this game upon release, IMO.
As I said, it may do fine as a niche game, and earn some money, but I think it has just as much chance of tanking outright unless they start making the experience richer. Combat is NOT this game's strong point, and combat is KEY for a standard themepark design. This is one of the main reasons people are having fun in GW2, and also a good reason why many people hate SWTOR. The combat is fun and engaging in GW2, whereas my experience with combat in TSW is that it is boring, and somewhat ugly to experience. This isn't likely to thrill anyone.
An example was my character using pistols this last weekend. I got several levels in, and the thing I liked the least about the game was combat. It was so slow and dull that I absolutely hated it, and pistols could be a really fun weapon set. I watched other classes too. It was weak.
Don't take my comments has TSW Hate, because I don't hate it. On the contrary, I would love to see it succeed.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Thing is, the current new themepark MMO's really don't have a lot of features less than for example a WoW did, the number of core features are about the same.
You're saying that this isn't enough anymore, however MMO history has proven that those features were enough to keep millions of players playing WoW for years, even if they might have reached level cap within a month or 2,3. If what you said was true, that themepark features aren't sufficient for longevity, then people would never have kept playing WoW after the first months, yet fact is they did.
So, it seems to me that what you're saying is that players have changed compared to 6-7 years and that themepark features don't have longterm appeal anymore where as years back they were good enough for retention and longevity. Or you're missing some primary motivation of players in your viewpoint what kept people playing in those supposedly short term themepark MMO's, something that transcends the seemingly little replayability of themepark features.
Yes and no. There is room for boring, run of the mill themepark games, but I believe the majority of MMO players who came to this genre with WoW, or long before, are sick and tired of the same old themepark games. There will always be room for this style of game, and they will make significant money, but to pretend that this market is where all the money exists is a mistake.
What I'm seeing now, and I've spent a long time playing these games, talking with people, reading articles and so on, is that there is a growing, and rather large segment of gamers out there that are asking for something more along the lines of a sandbox / themepark hybrid type of game that gives them modern day questing, along with some deeper and more social features. I also think there is a lot more interest in sandboxes in general than there was five years ago, but that no one has successfully released a modern sandbox game. ArchAge is getting a lot of attention despite the fact that there is no NA publisher yet. That game may be gold if it gets one.
My problem with this particular game, is that it should never have been designed as a pure themepark. The more I play it, the more it feels like a bit better version of SWTOR, though with worse combat. if that's possible. This game is a perfect candidate for a hybrid type of play style where those who want to play themepark only features can do so, but those people who want to spend more time developing an in-game community have the tools to do so.
I'll admit that I wanted to see a lot more in this game in the way of tools for building myself a very interesting character who could lurk in the shadows and become a part of motivations outside of the game's story progressions. As I said before, all of the previous years of discussion over at the official forums indicated that people were very much interested in building deep and interesting characters that would play a larger role in the game world than just group questing or instances. Right now I'm seeing nothing in the way of features that will cater to this crowd and on the other hand, I think it's pretty weak as a pure themepark when you compare it to something like GW2. For starters, combat needs a lot of work to become exciting enough for people to really care about it.
It's all in the eye of the beholder, of course. Maybe a game like WoD will eventually fulfill the hopes many of us had for TSW. I don't know, but I do feel that there is room for a game like the one I and many others envisioned this one to be. The question for Funcom is, are the players who would like the current structure of this game already playing SWTOR? I guess we will find out soon.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Lol. Yes, only 1 of the hundreds of clones will have your unique handle.
@MindTrigger: you make some valid points, but I also wonder how representative the sentiment of MMO gamers really is that can be found on sites like this and other MMO sites. I think there's a large bulk of MMO gamers that couldn't care less about general MMO forums. Heck, I didn't even care myself about MMO sites like this one even if I knew they existed and even if I'd been playing MMO's for 10+ years now. The official and guild forums were enough for me.
For example, if I had to base my perception on MMO sites like this one and consider it representative for the general MMO playerbase, then I'd be utterly and completely stunned and baffled that WoW still has 10 million players. Let it be like 4 million in the west, even then.
Based on the general vibe and sentiment I glean from sites like this one, I'd have given WoW 2-3 million in total and severely decreasing all the time. Yet, reality seems to be nowhere near what I could surmise of sites like this one.
Which leads me to believe that sites like this attract a specific subset of MMO gamers, namely the ones who are either frustrated or don't have an MMORPG they can lose themselves in currently. Basically, the currently disgruntled, which isn't necessarily representative for the whole of the MMO playerbase.
If I look at myself, I did exactly the same: even if I knew that sites like this one existed, I only started visiting it more frequently when current MMO's I played and official and guild forums weren't enough anymore to sate my MMO needs. The 9+ years before that, I was perfectly happy with playing my MMO's and visiting merely the official, guild and other forums related to this or that MMO I was playing during that time.
How unique does it have to be to not be a WoW clone, why can't it just be called a themepark? Is Call of Duty a Medal of Honor clone in that case?