I hope it was the lead devs and managers at Bioware, and not the regular programmers and staff who get on with the work but don't make decisions.
SWTOR is dead because of the bad decisions of the people at the top. The bosses at Bioware SWTOR do not deserve a paycheck, and yes, they deserve to be fired and never work in the industry again.
Specifically, I hope the following were fired:
Erickson
Zoeller
Ohlen
Reid
Campbell
All their forum mods
You forgot (Gabe) Amantangelo and (Dallas) Dickinson.
I say good fucking riddance. God, I'd put baby's on spikes if I could be there to see specifically Georg Zoeller, James Ohlen and Gabe Amantangelo frog-marched out of the building by security.
Because these people personally caused you some form of irreperable harm?
Wow... way to focus on yourself, rather than the people affected by this layoff... true to form...
People are getting laid off all over. I feel sorry for them all. Not so much for the people that made SWTOR the game it became. Not so much.
So because they made a game that you didn't personally like, or made decisions that you personally don't agree with, they deserve to lose their jobs, their livelihoods, and now these human beings need to go home and tell their families that their lives have been rocked.
Wow.
Wow...I am sorry. People make a bad product. They shouldn't be employed. Sorry you see it differently.
It seems there are currently enough people who don't think it is a bad product, as the game in whatever state it may be in is still up and running and surely enjoyed by those still paying for it.
I am not one of them, but you need to work real hard to distance your opinion and personal bias towards this game and have some basic human compassion for those who have lost their jobs.
I'm almost 100% positive very few decision makers lost their jobs, that's just the way this kind of thing works, and plenty of good people just trying to do their job well and do what they were told to do just lost their livelyhood, and due to the less than stellar success of the game they may also be at more of a disadvantage to find their next employment opportunity.
I agree. There have been plenty of games I didn't like. I was really disappointed with STO. After a few months I left and never went back. Never wished ill will of anyone working for Cryptic. It just wasn't the game for me. Why people decide to make gaming so personal is beyond me.
And everyone that bought the game supported that company. Now that the game is on the decline and they have to lay people off because it was such a bad product you all feel sorry for them. Maybe if you all had stayed subbed they wouldn't be laying people off. Do I feel sorry. No...I don't. I never hyped their product. I never supoorted them. They produced a bad product. They do not deserve support nor money. In my opinion. You all thought differently and now people are losing their jobs and you feel sorry for them? What did you think would happen when you withdrew your support?
You were just playing victim to the same thing you're now supporting, forum warriors. Have a bit of tact, realize you won. It's not about feeling sorry for them, it's about being humble and not rubbing the loss of employment in the faces of the low on the totem pole employees who are seeing the axe right now.
What was all that ranting about with the treatment you received at the hands of forum posters? IF not people on forums are cold people who say mean things?
Not to mention the fact that he directed his anger at us and neither of us did what he accused us of doing.
It seems there are currently enough people who don't think it is a bad product, as the game in whatever state it may be in is still up and running and surely enjoyed by those still paying for it.
I am not one of them, but you need to work real hard to distance your opinion and personal bias towards this game and have some basic human compassion for those who have lost their jobs.
I'm almost 100% positive very few decision makers lost their jobs, that's just the way this kind of thing works, and plenty of good people just trying to do their job well and do what they were told to do just lost their livelyhood, and due to the less than stellar success of the game they may also be at more of a disadvantage to find their next employment opportunity.
I agree. There have been plenty of games I didn't like. I was really disappointed with STO. After a few months I left and never went back. Never wished ill will of anyone working for Cryptic. It just wasn't the game for me. Why people decide to make gaming so personal is beyond me.
I also believe that there are very few people who would try to make a mediocre game, and certainly not a "bad" game.
But talent, money, and time (the 3 real "human" resources that going into making games) are finite.
Sometimes it may just be their best and their best isn't as good as we, the gamer, would have hoped for.
Other times they literally don't have a choice - it's all they can afford or have time to do.
Sure, there are slackers out there who would knowingly create something they know is crap, working just hard enough to not get fired but really just don't care.
Sadly, it's my experience in the business world that far too many of the slacker/lazy types remain employed while far too many of the truly talented and passionate ones take the fall for their certainly lesser superiors.
And I think we can all agree how grossly hopeful and naive many if not most gamers expectations (myself included) truly are when we have been dutifully following a game/product for years.
You guys dont get it, this is not personal but if you do a bad job then you should be reprimanded, fired or whatever. Sorry if some of you are taking it personally but if there is no consequence for a poor effort then the poor effort will keep repeating itself.
Now if the poor job on SW:TOR was done by the people who were fired or not is another question but the principle is still sound.
As for SW:TOR being a bad product or not. Well, if you disregard personal experiences, I read, before the release, that it was projected to have millions of subs but now it is around a million and dropping. So it would be a safe bet to say that it is performing below expectations and that is how it works in any industry. Below expectations = bad. Presumably SW:TOR is performing below expectations so people are getting fired for it, cause and effect. Perfectly reasonable.
The real problem is companies like EA are shooting for massive success and are unwilling to truly support anything less. TOR's major issue lies in longevity, you don't fix that problem by reducing staff, you fix it by throwing all available hands at it.
The problem is clear here, it's not the game that is the problem it's EA and the Suits in charge. When they're saying things like TOR isn't a developmental priority, it shows they weren't in this for the long haul to begin with.
TOR could be a good MMO, if they wanted to take the time to make it so, they don't. Last word they still had close to a million or so subs. That's not enough for EA, which means I personally will never touch an MMO they put out again. It will be the same song and dance every time no matter the design. If it doesn't put them in the TOP spot, they don't give a rats ass about it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You guys dont get it, this is not personal but if you do a bad job then you should be reprimanded, fired or whatever. Sorry if some of you are taking it personally but if there is no consequence for a poor effort then the poor effort will keep repeating itself.
Now if the poor job on SW:TOR was done by the people who were fired or not is another question but the principle is still sound.
As for SW:TOR being a bad product or not. Well, if you disregard personal experiences, I read, before the release, that it was projected to have millions of subs but now it is around a million and dropping. So it would be a safe bet to say that it is performing below expectations and that is how it works in any industry. Below expectations = bad. Presumably SW:TOR is performing below expectations so people are getting fired for it, cause and effect. Perfectly reasonable.
There's a difference between not performing to expectations, and having unrealistic expectations. SWTOR is performing just as any MMO player expected. It just shows those in charge had no working knowledge of this genre.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The real problem is companies like EA are shooting for massive success and are unwilling to truly support anything less. TOR's major issue lies in longevity, you don't fix that problem by reducing staff, you fix it by throwing all available hands at it.
The problem is clear here, it's not the game that is the problem it's EA and the Suits in charge. When they're saying things like TOR isn't a developmental priority, it shows they weren't in this for the long haul to begin with.
TOR could be a good MMO, if they wanted to take the time to make it so, they don't. Last word they still had close to a million or so subs. That's not enough for EA, which means I personally will never touch an MMO they put out again. It will be the same song and dance every time no matter the design. If it doesn't put them in the TOP spot, they don't give a rats ass about it.
The problem with your theory is that a million subs only can support paying for so many salaries. You say it could be a good MMO if they wanted to take the time to make it so - what makes you think they haven't already done that? The game has been out since December, they've released multiple updates, but the sub number is still falling.
Eventually you need to stop throwing "good money after bad", and that's probalby what they are doing with these layoffs. The unfortunate casualties, of course, are the employees whose lives are being affected.
The real problem is companies like EA are shooting for massive success and are unwilling to truly support anything less. TOR's major issue lies in longevity, you don't fix that problem by reducing staff, you fix it by throwing all available hands at it.
The problem is clear here, it's not the game that is the problem it's EA and the Suits in charge. When they're saying things like TOR isn't a developmental priority, it shows they weren't in this for the long haul to begin with.
TOR could be a good MMO, if they wanted to take the time to make it so, they don't. Last word they still had close to a million or so subs. That's not enough for EA, which means I personally will never touch an MMO they put out again. It will be the same song and dance every time no matter the design. If it doesn't put them in the TOP spot, they don't give a rats ass about it.
If this is what the future is like for TOR I'll be the same way. The MMO business is like the story of the Tortoise vs. the Hare. If you're not willing to strap yourself in for a long race then don't even bother entering.
The real problem is companies like EA are shooting for massive success and are unwilling to truly support anything less. TOR's major issue lies in longevity, you don't fix that problem by reducing staff, you fix it by throwing all available hands at it.
The problem is clear here, it's not the game that is the problem it's EA and the Suits in charge. When they're saying things like TOR isn't a developmental priority, it shows they weren't in this for the long haul to begin with.
TOR could be a good MMO, if they wanted to take the time to make it so, they don't. Last word they still had close to a million or so subs. That's not enough for EA, which means I personally will never touch an MMO they put out again. It will be the same song and dance every time no matter the design. If it doesn't put them in the TOP spot, they don't give a rats ass about it.
The problem with your theory is that a million subs only can support paying for so many salaries. You say it could be a good MMO if they wanted to take the time to make it so - what makes you think they haven't already done that? The game has been out since December, they've released multiple updates, but the sub number is still falling.
Eventually you need to stop throwing "good money after bad", and that's probalby what they are doing with these layoffs. The unfortunate casualties, of course, are the employees whose lives are being affected.
This is the difference between a true MMO studio and the Walmart of gaming. They've done nothing to fix longevity, their fix for their planned long-term PVP was basically removing it. They've added very little to end-game content, when they said they had all of this post game content on the reserve just waiting to be set in motion. No they didn't stick to their guns and attempt to support this game for the long-hual.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The real problem is companies like EA are shooting for massive success and are unwilling to truly support anything less. TOR's major issue lies in longevity, you don't fix that problem by reducing staff, you fix it by throwing all available hands at it.
The problem is clear here, it's not the game that is the problem it's EA and the Suits in charge. When they're saying things like TOR isn't a developmental priority, it shows they weren't in this for the long haul to begin with.
TOR could be a good MMO, if they wanted to take the time to make it so, they don't. Last word they still had close to a million or so subs. That's not enough for EA, which means I personally will never touch an MMO they put out again. It will be the same song and dance every time no matter the design. If it doesn't put them in the TOP spot, they don't give a rats ass about it.
You're looking at it from a player perspective. One I can fully support. However, the bean counters are the ones that lay all this out for those in management to make their decision. Unfortunately, with most companies regardless the endeavor they don't give a fuck 'cept for the bottom line. So when things start going the route they have with this game their first rule of thumb is to trim the fat.
Anyone know how many they are laying off?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Maintenance mod comes soon, exact same things are happening as with WAR. I am glad my prediciton was true, guess many TOR fanboys who flamed me all the time will now realise that TOR is going downhill fast.
This will actually be good for MMORPG genre, devs will realise they cant make lame WoW clones anymore and begin to innovate.
I just hope ppl learened their lesson and wont give money anymore to EA after all its we / you (since i m not buying their games) who keep EA and its crappy games alive.
I find it disgusting that you are glad people are losing their jobs, especially in this day and age where they can be hard to come by. I also think it's arrogant of you to state that it's a WoW clone when it most certainly is not. Just because it uses tab targeting and hot bars does not a WoW clone make. Who the heck designated you as the spokesperson on what is innovative and what is not. What you find old and stagnant is what we call our favorite style of gameplay. There are a lot more of us out there than you realize who do not want "innovative / revolutionary" action style combat which can be found in the 75% over saturated market of first person shooters already.
I don't have anything personal against EA and I will continue to buy their games if I think I'll like them and I still like SWTOR. My only real gripe about the game is that the world structures are too railish. It works fine for the main storyline, but the rest of the game should be much more open, classes shouldn't be so rigid in design just because of cut scene continuity.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a game, for whatever reason, but there is absolutely no need to put down those who have diffferent tastes in content and play style other than your own. What really ticks me off to boot is that you guys are getting all kinds of "innovative games" releasing now and in the next year or two and yet you act pissy if every single game doesn't comply with your vision of the perfect game.
Where did I say i am glad that poeple are losing their jobs? I a glad that bad WoW clone failed and I am said that ppl who dont deserve to be fired got fired, guy who made decision to make it a WoW clone should be losing his job not the poor coders and other ppl who were only doing what they were told.
Yet those ppl who ruined this game with their flawed design decisons will propably stay and continue to destroy the game or they will be moved to other projects to destroy.
Smedley destroyed SWG he is still CEO of SOE, didnt see him fired, only ppl who did what he asked lost their jobs.
Now look at EA, Paul Barnett hyped the WAR and after it didnt make EA expatations they put the game on life support and fire/ move 90% of the Mythic.. And best part is Paul Barnett didnt get fired he was moved to Wrath of Heroes which he described as "' This game doesnt have all the boring crap WAR has'' how can a man and company he works for be trusted again? Oh and BTW i think WAR was good game had some flaws that could be fixed but EA decided that mainentance mod was better option.
I am glad you are enjoying EA games i dont ME3, DA2, were disaster. Look what they are doing with BF3 they are adding sub to it like COD Elite, DICE said they would never do it, well look what EA did there....
Also look what EA did to C&C series, i can only imagine what kinda of DLC crap they are going to put in next generals title.
PPL can keep giving their money to EA but after WAR i am never gona do it again, guess i was right...
Also yes I am GW2 fanboy but i dont hate other games, TOR is only one i wanted to dail since it probably the ost lame clone of all other.
WAR, AoC, DCUO, STO, Vanguard, TERA and TSW are all games that ttry/tried to do smth different, they didnt achieve WoW success but EXCEPT WAR they all still have regular updates and are quite fun and unique on their on way and i enjoyed them. Wonder if EA is responsible that WAR and soon TOR wont be among them.
The real problem is companies like EA are shooting for massive success and are unwilling to truly support anything less. TOR's major issue lies in longevity, you don't fix that problem by reducing staff, you fix it by throwing all available hands at it.
The problem is clear here, it's not the game that is the problem it's EA and the Suits in charge. When they're saying things like TOR isn't a developmental priority, it shows they weren't in this for the long haul to begin with.
TOR could be a good MMO, if they wanted to take the time to make it so, they don't. Last word they still had close to a million or so subs. That's not enough for EA, which means I personally will never touch an MMO they put out again. It will be the same song and dance every time no matter the design. If it doesn't put them in the TOP spot, they don't give a rats ass about it.
If this is what the future is like for TOR I'll be the same way. The MMO business is like the story of the Tortoise vs. the Hare. If you're not willing to strap yourself in for a long race then don't even bother entering.
Exactly
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
WAR, AoC, DCUO, STO, Vanguard, TERA and TSW are all games that ttry/tried to do smth different, they didnt achieve WoW success but EXCEPT WAR they all still have regular updates and are quite fun and unique on their on way and i enjoyed them. Wonder if EA is responsible that WAR and soon TOR wont be among them.
I still to this day believe WAR could have been saved and COULD have been the new touchstone for MMO development in the post WoW-era, if they hadn't screwed up the implementation and management of that game so royally.
Not sure if that was EA or Mythic, but my gut (and the history/popular theory) points to EA once again.
Some really, really cool and fun/interesting ideas and systems... worse execution than even SWG (which for those without rose colored glasses was one of the buggiest, most broken, and most under-delivered MMO products in existance.)
If this is what the future is like for TOR I'll be the same way. The MMO business is like the story of the Tortoise vs. the Hare. If you're not willing to strap yourself in for a long race then don't even bother entering.
Exactly
Yeah but this is the company's m.o. I mean lets be honest here. A lot could have been done wih Warhammer too and you see how they handled that game. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that you may see the same actions taken here if they don't feel it is profitable enough to warrant so.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I wonder if Diablo 3 was a deciding factor in the layoffs? It's been noted that D3 has caused a slight noticable decline in WoW amongst other games at launch, from personal observations.
No. Businesses of the size of Bioware/EA don't make snap decisions on layoffs based on 4 days of game sales of a game that's not really a direct competitor.
WAR, AoC, DCUO, STO, Vanguard, TERA and TSW are all games that ttry/tried to do smth different, they didnt achieve WoW success but EXCEPT WAR they all still have regular updates and are quite fun and unique on their on way and i enjoyed them. Wonder if EA is responsible that WAR and soon TOR wont be among them.
I still to this day believe WAR could have been saved and COULD have been the new touchstone for MMO development in the post WoW-era, if they hadn't screwed up the implementation and management of that game so royally.
Not sure if that was EA or Mythic, but my gut (and the history/popular theory) points to EA once again.
Some really, really cool and fun/interesting ideas and systems... worse execution than even SWG (which for those without rose colored glasses was one of the buggiest, most broken, and most under-delivered MMO products in existance.)
I agree. When you look at WAR there is a whole slew of innovative ideas there. Defensive, offensive targets, unique class mechanics, level completely through PvP, Public Quests, RvR (innovation which carried over from DAoC).
But for some reason it got completely scewed up and created a lacklustre experience. I think it was when they butchered the capital cities and went for two rather than six and didnt stick with the tree faction one which was wildly successful in DAoC. The edngame performance issue didnt help either but those were fixed.
If this is what the future is like for TOR I'll be the same way. The MMO business is like the story of the Tortoise vs. the Hare. If you're not willing to strap yourself in for a long race then don't even bother entering.
Exactly
Yeah but this is the company's m.o. I mean lets be honest here. A lot could have been done wih Warhammer too and you see how they handled that game. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that you may see the same actions taken here if they don't feel it is profitable enough to warrant so.
That's true too, which Is why no matter the design or game, I'll never touch another MMO they produce. Like I said this is the difference between a MMO studio and a gaming Supermarket. Say what you will about any MMO studio, very few are going to let their games just wither and die in such a way (without attempting everything they can to turn it around). The same could be said for Sony (SOE).
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice.. well you get the picture
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You guys dont get it, this is not personal but if you do a bad job then you should be reprimanded, fired or whatever. Sorry if some of you are taking it personally but if there is no consequence for a poor effort then the poor effort will keep repeating itself.
Now if the poor job on SW:TOR was done by the people who were fired or not is another question but the principle is still sound.
As for SW:TOR being a bad product or not. Well, if you disregard personal experiences, I read, before the release, that it was projected to have millions of subs but now it is around a million and dropping. So it would be a safe bet to say that it is performing below expectations and that is how it works in any industry. Below expectations = bad. Presumably SW:TOR is performing below expectations so people are getting fired for it, cause and effect. Perfectly reasonable.
There's a difference between not performing to expectations, and having unrealistic expectations. SWTOR is performing just as any MMO player expected. It just shows those in charge had no working knowledge of this genre.
Doesn't matter. If a company is showing profits but it is below the expectations the stock will still go down. I believe the same principle applies here. Unrealistic or not, it was the expectations and it was not met so => bad.
Well nothing is ever straight forward in release statements,you can decipher it many ways.
The truth is every game hires workers based on contracts,they finish their bit then that is it,so it is nothing out of the normal.Secondly they "claim" a significant team will remain on the game,my past experiences have shown this to be around 35 members,not large but giving the standards to which most every game makes xpacs/updates,they won't need many more.
Unless we can find cold hard facts that show these layoffs are related to anything finacial and not just your normal contracts or employee movement that was always projected to happen,there is nothing to worry about as for job losses.
I might add one more thing,that Greg guy is most likely a hired face to interact with the media,people.He is going to say things that sound politically correct but not be saying it with any conviction.Example if the game all of a sudden folded up shop in one year,is there any recourse to go after this Greg guy for promising a high quality game for years to come?NOPE bottom line is he can say whatever he wants,most won't even remember this statement he delivered in a week from now.
Sadly, no. That's for MMOs that fail and single-player games. MMOs that succeed keep the teams together because they're adding new content, improving the engine, and getting ready for the next major expansioni. Just like what BioWare was planning to do when they said they were on track to not lay anyone off. On December 20th. 2011, a week into the game's launch, Ohlen said:
Current projections, he says, show enough success that BioWare is investing in the future and keeping the entire team of hundreds of people together.
"Unlike a lot of other game companies that, once they launch a game, downsize their teams radically, our plan is to keep the team together and continue to focus on building content."
People are getting laid off all over. I feel sorry for them all. Not so much for the people that made SWTOR the game it became. Not so much.
So because they made a game that you didn't personally like, or made decisions that you personally don't agree with, they deserve to lose their jobs, their livelihoods, and now these human beings need to go home and tell their families that their lives have been rocked.
Wow.
Wow...I am sorry. People make a bad product. They shouldn't be employed. Sorry you see it differently.
It seems there are currently enough people who don't think it is a bad product, as the game in whatever state it may be in is still up and running and surely enjoyed by those still paying for it.
I am not one of them, but you need to work real hard to distance your opinion and personal bias towards this game and have some basic human compassion for those who have lost their jobs.
I'm almost 100% positive very few decision makers lost their jobs, that's just the way this kind of thing works, and plenty of good people just trying to do their job well and do what they were told to do just lost their livelyhood, and due to the less than stellar success of the game they may also be at more of a disadvantage to find their next employment opportunity.
I agree. There have been plenty of games I didn't like. I was really disappointed with STO. After a few months I left and never went back. Never wished ill will of anyone working for Cryptic. It just wasn't the game for me. Why people decide to make gaming so personal is beyond me.
Cryptic didn't troll me. BioWare did. Cryptic was embarrassed by its mistakes and tried to fix them. BIoWare tells you it's your fault, your computer's fault and go to hell you L2P noob...
You guys dont get it, this is not personal but if you do a bad job then you should be reprimanded, fired or whatever. Sorry if some of you are taking it personally but if there is no consequence for a poor effort then the poor effort will keep repeating itself.
Now if the poor job on SW:TOR was done by the people who were fired or not is another question but the principle is still sound.
As for SW:TOR being a bad product or not. Well, if you disregard personal experiences, I read, before the release, that it was projected to have millions of subs but now it is around a million and dropping. So it would be a safe bet to say that it is performing below expectations and that is how it works in any industry. Below expectations = bad. Presumably SW:TOR is performing below expectations so people are getting fired for it, cause and effect. Perfectly reasonable.
There's a difference between not performing to expectations, and having unrealistic expectations. SWTOR is performing just as any MMO player expected. It just shows those in charge had no working knowledge of this genre.
Doesn't matter. If a company is showing profits but it is below the expectations the stock will still go down. I believe the same principle applies here. Unrealistic or not, it was the expectations and it was not met so => bad.
I'm not saying you're wrong, as you're right if you're speaking in terms of the mentality at a corporation. All I am really saying is it just shows we can't trust EA to do what is required to build and maintain a decent MMO.
They did this same thing to Earth and Beyond.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Maybe TOR will be the last chapter in this book of generic theme-park carrot on a stick game design approach for mmo's. Or maybe not... But I cant see another company rounding up investors to drop this kind of cash on another mmo any time in the near future though, so itll probably be the last one of those any of us will see for a long long time.
Sorry, but Devs havent learned anything
/inc The Elder Scrolls Online
I was going to write the exact same thing when I read that.
It won't change, they just start hyping features like 3 faction pvp or action combat, while still delivering the exact same game we've been playing for a decade now.
They won't look at it and think that it's the modell as a whole that's the problem. They think it's not casual enough, or it's because it's 2 faction pvp, or because they didn't add enough of a gimmick to combat.
It'll never be because it's just another quest grinder, or because it's not meaningful, non instanced, structured pvp, or because no matter what kind of combat you use if the classes aren't compelling or enjoyable to play it won't matter. They won't think it has anything to do with it being linear or because maybe people are getting sick of reaching the level cap in a month and then spending the next few months grinding for gear. No it'll be because they didn't add enough raids to grind gear in, not the gear grind itself.
Obviously the model is fine, WoW has 10 million subscibers. Who cares if even WoW has stopped showing growth and is actually starting to show losses. It's just obvious that it works.
Besides, with the right name on the box, and the right gimmick, you can sell millions of copies of complete crap and make a profit. Remember, it only cost a fraction of the money to run an MMO then it does to make one.
Even single player games with no cash shop and dedicated servers can keep a development team going to provide update fixes to a game. It's cheap enough now to develop a single player game and bill it as the next great MMO, and get a handful of people to pay you each month to play it, or switch it to F2P after most of your playerbase realises it's not worth paying a subscription for.
CoD is practically an MMO. Play through a single player storyline and then hop into an "instance" and play with your friends. How long have they been doing this without a subscription or cash shop?
I'm not saying you're wrong, as you're right if you're speaking in terms of the mentality at a corporation. All I am really saying is it just shows we can't trust EA to do what is required to build and maintain a decent MMO.
I think you and others may be reading a little much into that post. You are inferring a whole lot, making it sound like they're reducing the staff to 7 guys and a temp. Maybe that's the case, but at this point stating it as fact is wrongheaded.
Also keep in mind that these staffs tend to grow as the game gets closer to launch. It could be that they have 200% of the people they had 3 years ago still working on the game.
Comments
Because these people personally caused you some form of irreperable harm?
I agree. There have been plenty of games I didn't like. I was really disappointed with STO. After a few months I left and never went back. Never wished ill will of anyone working for Cryptic. It just wasn't the game for me. Why people decide to make gaming so personal is beyond me.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Not to mention the fact that he directed his anger at us and neither of us did what he accused us of doing.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I also believe that there are very few people who would try to make a mediocre game, and certainly not a "bad" game.
But talent, money, and time (the 3 real "human" resources that going into making games) are finite.
Sometimes it may just be their best and their best isn't as good as we, the gamer, would have hoped for.
Other times they literally don't have a choice - it's all they can afford or have time to do.
Sure, there are slackers out there who would knowingly create something they know is crap, working just hard enough to not get fired but really just don't care.
Sadly, it's my experience in the business world that far too many of the slacker/lazy types remain employed while far too many of the truly talented and passionate ones take the fall for their certainly lesser superiors.
And I think we can all agree how grossly hopeful and naive many if not most gamers expectations (myself included) truly are when we have been dutifully following a game/product for years.
You guys dont get it, this is not personal but if you do a bad job then you should be reprimanded, fired or whatever. Sorry if some of you are taking it personally but if there is no consequence for a poor effort then the poor effort will keep repeating itself.
Now if the poor job on SW:TOR was done by the people who were fired or not is another question but the principle is still sound.
As for SW:TOR being a bad product or not. Well, if you disregard personal experiences, I read, before the release, that it was projected to have millions of subs but now it is around a million and dropping. So it would be a safe bet to say that it is performing below expectations and that is how it works in any industry. Below expectations = bad. Presumably SW:TOR is performing below expectations so people are getting fired for it, cause and effect. Perfectly reasonable.
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The real problem is companies like EA are shooting for massive success and are unwilling to truly support anything less. TOR's major issue lies in longevity, you don't fix that problem by reducing staff, you fix it by throwing all available hands at it.
The problem is clear here, it's not the game that is the problem it's EA and the Suits in charge. When they're saying things like TOR isn't a developmental priority, it shows they weren't in this for the long haul to begin with.
TOR could be a good MMO, if they wanted to take the time to make it so, they don't. Last word they still had close to a million or so subs. That's not enough for EA, which means I personally will never touch an MMO they put out again. It will be the same song and dance every time no matter the design. If it doesn't put them in the TOP spot, they don't give a rats ass about it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There's a difference between not performing to expectations, and having unrealistic expectations. SWTOR is performing just as any MMO player expected. It just shows those in charge had no working knowledge of this genre.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem with your theory is that a million subs only can support paying for so many salaries. You say it could be a good MMO if they wanted to take the time to make it so - what makes you think they haven't already done that? The game has been out since December, they've released multiple updates, but the sub number is still falling.
Eventually you need to stop throwing "good money after bad", and that's probalby what they are doing with these layoffs. The unfortunate casualties, of course, are the employees whose lives are being affected.
If this is what the future is like for TOR I'll be the same way. The MMO business is like the story of the Tortoise vs. the Hare. If you're not willing to strap yourself in for a long race then don't even bother entering.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
This is the difference between a true MMO studio and the Walmart of gaming. They've done nothing to fix longevity, their fix for their planned long-term PVP was basically removing it. They've added very little to end-game content, when they said they had all of this post game content on the reserve just waiting to be set in motion. No they didn't stick to their guns and attempt to support this game for the long-hual.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You're looking at it from a player perspective. One I can fully support. However, the bean counters are the ones that lay all this out for those in management to make their decision. Unfortunately, with most companies regardless the endeavor they don't give a fuck 'cept for the bottom line. So when things start going the route they have with this game their first rule of thumb is to trim the fat.
Anyone know how many they are laying off?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Where did I say i am glad that poeple are losing their jobs? I a glad that bad WoW clone failed and I am said that ppl who dont deserve to be fired got fired, guy who made decision to make it a WoW clone should be losing his job not the poor coders and other ppl who were only doing what they were told.
Yet those ppl who ruined this game with their flawed design decisons will propably stay and continue to destroy the game or they will be moved to other projects to destroy.
Smedley destroyed SWG he is still CEO of SOE, didnt see him fired, only ppl who did what he asked lost their jobs.
Now look at EA, Paul Barnett hyped the WAR and after it didnt make EA expatations they put the game on life support and fire/ move 90% of the Mythic.. And best part is Paul Barnett didnt get fired he was moved to Wrath of Heroes which he described as "' This game doesnt have all the boring crap WAR has'' how can a man and company he works for be trusted again? Oh and BTW i think WAR was good game had some flaws that could be fixed but EA decided that mainentance mod was better option.
I am glad you are enjoying EA games i dont ME3, DA2, were disaster. Look what they are doing with BF3 they are adding sub to it like COD Elite, DICE said they would never do it, well look what EA did there....
Also look what EA did to C&C series, i can only imagine what kinda of DLC crap they are going to put in next generals title.
PPL can keep giving their money to EA but after WAR i am never gona do it again, guess i was right...
Also yes I am GW2 fanboy but i dont hate other games, TOR is only one i wanted to dail since it probably the ost lame clone of all other.
WAR, AoC, DCUO, STO, Vanguard, TERA and TSW are all games that ttry/tried to do smth different, they didnt achieve WoW success but EXCEPT WAR they all still have regular updates and are quite fun and unique on their on way and i enjoyed them. Wonder if EA is responsible that WAR and soon TOR wont be among them.
Exactly
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I still to this day believe WAR could have been saved and COULD have been the new touchstone for MMO development in the post WoW-era, if they hadn't screwed up the implementation and management of that game so royally.
Not sure if that was EA or Mythic, but my gut (and the history/popular theory) points to EA once again.
Some really, really cool and fun/interesting ideas and systems... worse execution than even SWG (which for those without rose colored glasses was one of the buggiest, most broken, and most under-delivered MMO products in existance.)
Yeah but this is the company's m.o. I mean lets be honest here. A lot could have been done wih Warhammer too and you see how they handled that game. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that you may see the same actions taken here if they don't feel it is profitable enough to warrant so.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Not surprised, this game never had one only chance to work.
No. Businesses of the size of Bioware/EA don't make snap decisions on layoffs based on 4 days of game sales of a game that's not really a direct competitor.
I agree. When you look at WAR there is a whole slew of innovative ideas there. Defensive, offensive targets, unique class mechanics, level completely through PvP, Public Quests, RvR (innovation which carried over from DAoC).
But for some reason it got completely scewed up and created a lacklustre experience. I think it was when they butchered the capital cities and went for two rather than six and didnt stick with the tree faction one which was wildly successful in DAoC. The edngame performance issue didnt help either but those were fixed.
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That's true too, which Is why no matter the design or game, I'll never touch another MMO they produce. Like I said this is the difference between a MMO studio and a gaming Supermarket. Say what you will about any MMO studio, very few are going to let their games just wither and die in such a way (without attempting everything they can to turn it around). The same could be said for Sony (SOE).
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice.. well you get the picture
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Doesn't matter. If a company is showing profits but it is below the expectations the stock will still go down. I believe the same principle applies here. Unrealistic or not, it was the expectations and it was not met so => bad.
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Sadly, no. That's for MMOs that fail and single-player games. MMOs that succeed keep the teams together because they're adding new content, improving the engine, and getting ready for the next major expansioni. Just like what BioWare was planning to do when they said they were on track to not lay anyone off. On December 20th. 2011, a week into the game's launch, Ohlen said:
Current projections, he says, show enough success that BioWare is investing in the future and keeping the entire team of hundreds of people together.
"Unlike a lot of other game companies that, once they launch a game, downsize their teams radically, our plan is to keep the team together and continue to focus on building content."
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134940/the_making_of_star_wars_the_old_.php?page=3
They're down sizing. It's been six months with virutally no content. And features promised have a very 'Duke Nukem" feel about them...
Cryptic didn't troll me. BioWare did. Cryptic was embarrassed by its mistakes and tried to fix them. BIoWare tells you it's your fault, your computer's fault and go to hell you L2P noob...
I'm not saying you're wrong, as you're right if you're speaking in terms of the mentality at a corporation. All I am really saying is it just shows we can't trust EA to do what is required to build and maintain a decent MMO.
They did this same thing to Earth and Beyond.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I was going to write the exact same thing when I read that.
It won't change, they just start hyping features like 3 faction pvp or action combat, while still delivering the exact same game we've been playing for a decade now.
They won't look at it and think that it's the modell as a whole that's the problem. They think it's not casual enough, or it's because it's 2 faction pvp, or because they didn't add enough of a gimmick to combat.
It'll never be because it's just another quest grinder, or because it's not meaningful, non instanced, structured pvp, or because no matter what kind of combat you use if the classes aren't compelling or enjoyable to play it won't matter. They won't think it has anything to do with it being linear or because maybe people are getting sick of reaching the level cap in a month and then spending the next few months grinding for gear. No it'll be because they didn't add enough raids to grind gear in, not the gear grind itself.
Obviously the model is fine, WoW has 10 million subscibers. Who cares if even WoW has stopped showing growth and is actually starting to show losses. It's just obvious that it works.
Besides, with the right name on the box, and the right gimmick, you can sell millions of copies of complete crap and make a profit. Remember, it only cost a fraction of the money to run an MMO then it does to make one.
Even single player games with no cash shop and dedicated servers can keep a development team going to provide update fixes to a game. It's cheap enough now to develop a single player game and bill it as the next great MMO, and get a handful of people to pay you each month to play it, or switch it to F2P after most of your playerbase realises it's not worth paying a subscription for.
CoD is practically an MMO. Play through a single player storyline and then hop into an "instance" and play with your friends. How long have they been doing this without a subscription or cash shop?
I think you and others may be reading a little much into that post. You are inferring a whole lot, making it sound like they're reducing the staff to 7 guys and a temp. Maybe that's the case, but at this point stating it as fact is wrongheaded.
Also keep in mind that these staffs tend to grow as the game gets closer to launch. It could be that they have 200% of the people they had 3 years ago still working on the game.