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The first themepark MMORPG where skill matters more than class?
holdenhamlet
Member EpicPosts: 3,772
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
Comments
Planetside.
But class roles were pretty loosely defined by anything other than the players, seeing as you could cert into anything.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
this is still very much a gear and levels game and till that goes away it really isn't much different than all the rest... you can even look at firefall a pure FPS MMO which in beta found levels and vertical gear progression are not fun in PVP and have revamped their entire system to be leveless and more requirement just on skills. Unless everyone is in equal footing in gear/levels ala GW2 battlegrounds or have some other purpose to PVP ala seige warfare so undergears have a purpose then its still all the same as games like Rift and before. Just adding in a dodge/ non tab target combat doesn't change this in this type of game setup
also any MMO aside from seriously OP combos, which usually are part of the balance dance, skill reigns supreme over class as long as equal gear and level... it's not any differn't here
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I've beat a sorc without being hit before as a warrior, and a sorc has beaten me without being hit. Same gear, same class and i'll destroy one person and lose badly to the other.
Little bit of luck(crits/sleeps), whole lot of reflex/timing and general skill level factors in.
Some classes have an overall advantage when on 100% equal footing though, for example a bad warrior is going to lose to a bad lancer or a bad sorc, but if you become good with a warrior, they can beat anyone.
Your class doesn't matter, if you want to be good you just need to practice, no matter what class and you'll be able to beat any other class.
You are too stuck on your bad feelings toward the entire game to where you dont even see what the OP is talking about.
Skill was the only thing that mattered 10+ years ago in Asheron's Call.
As someone who has pugged a lot in World of Warcraft, I can honestly say, skill matters more than class.
You can take two different groups with the same basic item level and one will wipe time and time again, and one will breeze throught the dungeon. The difference is skill. So I do think there are other games where skill at playing your character is very important.
When I saw this thread title on the front page, I clicked it to reply with exactly that.
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"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
and you two are so blindly following the game that don't see it's very much like all the rest. Any MMO I have played with PVP skill always won didn't matter what class you were unless the game designed classes as pure support than thats another matter. There is nothing new here aside from being able to block or dodge but its still an equipment/level based game hence skill only really matters with equal or similar gear much like any other game out there
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
dude this game is lvl based, sure you can dodge and move around but it doesnt really matter. higher lvl always wins in this game.PERIOD.
Given equal skill, class balance and gear still matter in this game.
You still blinded dont get it. Also I dont follow or play Tera.
He is saying Tera skill matters over class which is tru in any PVP MMO assuming the MMO doesn't have a dedicated support only class. Nut what it really comes down to is gear and level just like the rest.. also why even post here if you don't play or follow the game.. also this game has balance issues just like any other game it is no differn't
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
EVE Online managed the same and more years ago. The skill and knoweldge of the player matters a lot more than gear and skill points. EVE doesnt have classes as such but players do focus skills in certain areas though.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
I found GW2 to have a similar level.
However I have to put in the caveat that TERA is much much easier when it comes to normal mobs. Normal mobs in GW2 requie alot more skill than TERA after about level 7 and do way more damage.
BAMs are a challenge but most normal mobs are stupidly easy in TERA.
Also I have to put in the caveat that its much easier to go down in GW2 so comparing the two games is not very useful. TERA is a bit more of a marathon and GW2 is more of sprint.
In both games a skilled player in the course of about 2 minutes will take 10 times less damage than a crappy player. But in GW2 the bad player would die in 15 seconds and TERA that 2 minutes is maybe around where he would die. Similarly in GW2 against a veteran the fight would be over pretty fast whereas a BAM takes 10 minutes or more to fight solo. Veterans and BAMs are not analogous really but a veteran can hit as hard as BAMs in a relative sense. Of course all this varies extremely depending on content.
In the end alot of TERA though is still tank and spank. While skill does exist and can be leveraged alot many BAM types have a number of cheapish moves to make some things not that skilled and better handled by being healed through.
There are guided missiles in TERA and locked on abilities no matter what people tell you about how its superior to some tab target paradigm. I have seen fireballs fired at fight angles and had them curve 180 degrees to hit me. The only way to "dodge" that attack is by having it hit you during your invulnerability frames.
Absoloutely. I've played tons of MMO's, and I usually don't do so sober for very long. not Tera. I got torn to shreds when i was drunk. That says more than you'd think, considering tanked every boss in WoW unable to walk, and usually come out top 5 in BF3 64 player when I'm smashed.
Good thing it takes no time at all to level then right?
Not true, I play my archer all the time and kill people 2-3 levels higher than me. Would it be easier if they were my lvl? Sure, but that doesnt mean its one sided.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
Yeah I had issues killing players in open pvp on my berserker no matter what their level was just because of how slow I swing my axe, but eh I had my times when I would kill people. Multiple times when I killed someone higher level. I would say it is a lot more gear dependant than level dependant. Because a decked out person for your level will beat the hell out of you if you aren't in somewhat similar gear.
In response to the OP:
There's an mmorpg called Darkfall (released late 2008), which is extremely skill dependent -- both player gaming skill and character skills. It is full loot PVP, too. Even to farm mats, you need to run with a few guildies or somesuch just to get back alive with what you've farmed. Both the skill focus and the danger really promoted group play, but playing could be more intense than relaxing sometimes.
It was a cool game. I'm glad more games are going the skill route.
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Its not easy to understand what the OP means, but if you've played the game for an good amount of time (which I know you haven't) and you've played other MMO's for the sole purpose of PVP you'll know that he's pretty spot on. Its almost like a fighting game for the xbox in some sense, yes there will be imbalances (just like any game) but the person with the better Skill will 90% of the time win, and that Is most certainly not the case in every game - ala those GW2 battlegrounds you were mentioning earlier, I could spam my 1 key all day on my greatsword ranger, pop invulnerabilty and easily take 2-3 people on at once. Oh how I look forward to showing off that greatsword skill next BWE.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
I say matter more but class does come in to play but like all game thats class based. In 1v1 generally more skill player wins hwoever some class require more skill to play than other against certain classes. Like sorc require hella lot more skill to 1v1 speically against melee than say slayer. Although good can demolish slayers easy =X.
In group PvP team comp matters a lot, than again so does most other games. lets say a team with 1 lancer, warrior, 2 dps, and healer is going to have pain in the ass time with a comp of 4dps and a priest. Mainly priest heals a lot and lancer and warrior don't put out enough dmg to allow you to focus fire down 1 enemy easy. Or going against a comp of 2 healer w/o decent dps is also horrible. Howver ofc indiviual skill matters too, if your dps can't aim, you can't kill anyone and if your healer don't know how to dodge or kit people well you have no heals XD.
Only in the early lvl, later lvl while is anything but tank and spank when the boss is flying all over the fucking room even if your tank is holding aggro 100% of the time due to their fast and random attack patter that all aoe and pretty much push the tank around like nuts.
And also there are VERY few lock on, mage has 1 attack thats a lock on, archer has 1 attack thats a lock on, mystic has 1 dot thats a lock on, and ofc heals are lock on. Thats all the lock on there is in this game, all of them do pretty crapy dmg and you have to pretty suck to not dodge/block them. Its not hard when the screen flashing fucking "name" has lock on to you and you can see the damn thing fly at you for like 1-2 fully give you enough time to dodge/block the skills. Also since you brought it up GW2 has much more lock ons than Tera does.
Thing with games liek darkfallis its nice, lot of gamers gamers like it. However many casual games don't, they don't like lossing all their items because some other guy have no life and can spend 20 hrs a day master a game. and honestly it makes sense. Any skill based game requires pratice pratice and prateice. Tera, i made this compareson with my friend, pvp is kinda like LoL. Not in the sense of how it play out and everything but its all about pratice pratice and pratice. In LoL to be good at the game well you got to play the game ALOT. Play every champion, know every champion, fight every champion to get better. Tera and many other skill based game is the same. You get better as you fight more and more different type of people who have different play style and you learn how to counter them. And all of this require a great deal of time.
Thing is with pretty much every mmorpgs now days the mass majorty are casual gamers, people who don't have the time like some of us to master these things. So when you have a full loot game coming out like darkfall its very hard for it to surive. It worked in the past because back than only gamer gamers played mmorpgs, there wasn't much casual gamers so if thats your only audience it worked. Now days it doesn't because to make any money you have to pitch to the casual gamers and any full loot game just doesn't work out that well with them.
This is also very noticable in Tera, I mean when you die in Tera if you get PK onlything you loss is 1-2mins and like 2 gold tops (thats at lvl 60) for stamia npc. Thats yet, thats like almost no penty at all and people are scared as fuck to die.... Hell even duels where you don't die people are scared as fuck to do it. My entire guild moved server because the server we were on were more PvE than well PvE servers.... 1 guild would fight us over and over and over again, they kept charging out, they kept dying but HEY at least they were willing to fight which is more than we can say about the rest of the server -.- Idk people are scared to die, scared to loss, like their life is over if they do it.... I mean i loss all the time in PvP but it helps me get better, hell i rather loss more than i win because when I loss it means i'm fighting some one better and i'm geting better rather than 1 shoot some lower lvl or fight some push overs.
I played Darkfall for a month. It's also targetting based combat which was cool. The problem with that game was the insane amount of grinding you had to do just to be able to fight back, so I still think TERA trumps Darkfall as far as skill being the most deciding factor. In Darkfall the deciding factor is definitely how much time you spent grinding over anything else. Getting to 60 is relatively easy in TERA (especially compared to the Darkfall grind).
But yeah sure, if you could find someone around your same level in abilities, then it was skill that won, especially since there were no classes in Darkfall.
I loved the concept and enjoyed much of it despite the horrible graphics. But when I realized that I'd have to either leave my computer running with macros or spend a month standing around casting spells over and over just to level them just to be competative, I opted out.
That's probably true and I've heard that beginning ships can be effective, but damn that game is boring (at least to me).
I'll amend the title if possible to read "the first themepark MMO".