EVE Online managed the same and more years ago. The skill and knoweldge of the player matters a lot more than gear and skill points. EVE doesnt have classes as such but players do focus skills in certain areas though.
Maybe I missed something when I played, but I don't think pressing this button while your ship automatically spins around another can really be counted as skill...
And does it truly count as skill when you can gain points while not even logged in?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Didn't buy TERA yet, so can't comment on what happens at higher levels, but, from what i've read and watched, it's the same has other mmos':
- Different levels and gear: No skill needed (some here more than other mmos, however)
- Same level and gera: 100% skill based. It is an action game after all. Many QQ about animation locks, but even fighting games have them to make sure you plan your attacks carefuly. I remember playing DB Budokai 3 with a friend., and many times i tried to use Kamehameha without planing, he side steped, and because i was locked in place, he used is special attack and i couldn't dodge.
The question is: How hard is it to obtain gear that puts you on the same levels? It isn't the first i think, but more skill, twicth, reaction based than most mmorpg.
There's an mmorpg called Darkfall (released late 2008), which is extremely skill dependent -- both player gaming skill and character skills. It is full loot PVP, too. Even to farm mats, you need to run with a few guildies or somesuch just to get back alive with what you've farmed. Both the skill focus and the danger really promoted group play, but playing could be more intense than relaxing sometimes.
It was a cool game. I'm glad more games are going the skill route.
I played Darkfall for a month. It's also targetting based combat which was cool. The problem with that game was the insane amount of grinding you had to do just to be able to fight back, so I still think TERA trumps Darkfall as far as skill being the most deciding factor. In Darkfall the deciding factor is definitely how much time you spent grinding over anything else. Getting to 60 is relatively easy in TERA (especially compared to the Darkfall grind).
But yeah sure, if you could find someone around your same level in abilities, then it was skill that won, especially since there were no classes in Darkfall.
I loved the concept and enjoyed much of it despite the horrible graphics. But when I realized that I'd have to either leave my computer running with macros or spend a month standing around casting spells over and over just to level them just to be competative, I opted out.
Tera combat s about 50% of how amazing Darkfall combat is.
Any vet who has played both Darfall and Tera would aggree.
But yep, the grind to get a proper endgame char is a bit silly.
Didn't buy TERA yet, so can't comment on what happens at higher levels, but, from what i've read and watched, it's the same has other mmos':
- Different levels and gear: No skill needed (some here more than other mmos, however)
Some what truee, its really easy to fix honestly idk why they haven't done it because the only reason this exist is the retardly dmg scaling. But than again its a Korean game and Koreans don't PvP till max lvl so this was never an issue.
- Same level and gera: 100% skill based. It is an action game after all. Many QQ about animation locks, but even fighting games have them to make sure you plan your attacks carefuly. I remember playing DB Budokai 3 with a friend., and many times i tried to use Kamehameha without planing, he side steped, and because i was locked in place, he used is special attack and i couldn't dodge.
This is true however idk how this put it the same as every other mmo because well most of them aren't action based.
The question is: How hard is it to obtain gear that puts you on the same levels? It isn't the first i think, but more skill, twicth, reaction based than most mmorpg.
Gears wise isn't really that hard, although honestly if your a dps its much much much faster to grind normal mobs for gold to buy your gear than farming for it as of now lol. in the 1-2hr it takes to queue for a dungeon i can farm about 500g ish an hour which is enough to probabaly get a glove or a boot. So 2hr i already have my lvl 20 enchantable glove/boot. Than proabbly other i want to say 4-6hrs for the armor piece depending on your class and other i say 10hrs top for your weapon if you just grind for gold period. While more boring than doing dungeon at least you don't wait like 1-2hrs for a run to hope you get your drop lol. Although its probabaly good diea to combine the 2 method. But ya if you try to just farm it from dungeon its pure luck, however if you grind it out and buy it i say less than a week tops and you have your fully T12 enchantable set. Getting T13 is other story lol.
Also for PvP gear as of now you do nexus, which is 3 days a week 2 day each. About a month of nexus before your first piece of gear. Now it sounds bad but really isn't. Nexus give you rep points when you do it, thing is rep is split in to your rep status and your rep credit. So you start at netural->favorable->friendly->trust->revered So to buy T12 pvp gear you need friendly and T13 you need revered. So you probabaly get enough of the credit to buy T13 gear way before you even hit friendly=P so i guess people go for the T12 pvp gear first which takes about 2 weeks if you go to all 6 each week to get your first piece and i like to say about 3 nexus per piece? Its not bad if you can make it =X
Originally posted by rexzshadow Like sorc require hella lot more skill to 1v1 speically against melee than say slayer.
I have not been a 60 slayer for too long but I think a lot of people under estimate the skill gap between slayers (its a pretty large gap). Sure if a player is ignorant in how a slayer is played then hes likely to get crushed in 1v1 by one even if its a bad slayer. Most of the people I see complaining about slayers being OP really have no idea how to deal with one.
Edit: less relevant now that I realized you specified against melee.
EVE Online managed the same and more years ago. The skill and knoweldge of the player matters a lot more than gear and skill points. EVE doesnt have classes as such but players do focus skills in certain areas though.
Maybe I missed something when I played, but I don't think pressing this button while your ship automatically spins around another can really be counted as skill...
And does it truly count as skill when you can gain points while not even logged in?
There is sooooo much more to it then that, and time based progression is necessary in my opinion because if there were "levels" everyone who rushed to get the requirements to fly the best ships would be terrible pilots due to the fact that they have no experience.
Originally posted by rexzshadow Like sorc require hella lot more skill to 1v1 speically against melee than say slayer.
I have not been a 60 slayer for too long but I think a lot of people under estimate the skill gap between slayers (its a pretty large gap). Sure if a player is ignorant in how a slayer is played then hes likely to get crushed in 1v1 by one even if its a bad slayer. Most of the people I see complaining about slayers being OP really have no idea how to deal with one.
Edit: less relevant now that I realized you specified against melee.
My cousin plays a slayer and i got to test out some pvp with the class, I think the main reason people say they're easy mode is because of the ranged attack they get that absolutely destroys ranged classes.
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
TERA is all about gear + ping(lag), anyone who have played a FPS game or even a console arcade knows how to aim, BUt skill on tera? just no.
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
Well, skill do matterin Tera, but after trying both it and GW2 I must say it matters more there compared to class. Tera is still a trinity game in the base for good and bad, and when you in GW2 changes fast between the roles Tera have a hard time keeping up. Dodging is not unsimilar in both games, GW2 don´t have Teras aiming though but I still felt it demanded more skill.
Tera is pretty good, but I hope they add an alternative weapon to all all the classes later, that would add more flexibility to the system.
You are too stuck on your bad feelings toward the entire game to where you dont even see what the OP is talking about.
S'allright. You can't really have any discussion where the undefined term "skill" is the primary point of contention anyway.
Ex: "Hey OP, you're wrong, what about (oldgame)?" "Like OMG that game took no skill at all."
Simple denial is the most complex form the argument can take.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
DCUO, you can actually beat someone who's considerably higher level then you, and without using the animation glitch.
Wish more games would use the TERA and DCUO style of combat more.
I was thinking of bringing up DCUO, but the problem there is that there were too many glitches and exploits, making it hard to distinguish a skilled player from an exploiter. Some might even argue using the exploits was a form of skill.
Originally posted by rexzshadow Like sorc require hella lot more skill to 1v1 speically against melee than say slayer.
I have not been a 60 slayer for too long but I think a lot of people under estimate the skill gap between slayers (its a pretty large gap). Sure if a player is ignorant in how a slayer is played then hes likely to get crushed in 1v1 by one even if its a bad slayer. Most of the people I see complaining about slayers being OP really have no idea how to deal with one.
Edit: less relevant now that I realized you specified against melee.
That is true, however the main issue is with slayer is that they require much less skill to play and is REALLY hard for people who just starting out to counter. There what slayer do in pvp, distance blade, follow by a stun, than then down-down strike. Than if you get knocked down your fcked and if the slayer is good your probabaly dead. Slayer against ranged? distance blade out range all range classes (i know retarded XD), if archer put down a trap waiting for slayer, slayer can distance blade run away wait for cd and distance blade again and win against archers.... (ofc if the archer is stupid enough to keep it up)
Let me get that 2 handed Axe of Ownage and walk up to a undergeared newb.
Lets see how much "Skill" comes into play then.
Sorry but any game that increases the power of a character through millions of gear set ups will never truly be about skill.
Ya like ever other mmorpgs didn't have difference in gear because of lvl -.- Ofc you go fcking pick on lower lvl all kill is pretty much fcking nulled. Same with LoL, if some one get fcking disconnected for 10mins than come back they can be skill as hell doesn't prevent them from been fcking killed in 2s by some one who completely out farmed them by 10 mins -.-
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
Yes and we will start at the beginning before uber gear was part of MMO. EQ1, AC, Shadowbane. All games where gear had a minimal impact on your characters success. However, Tera is a gear game like WOW don't think otherwise.
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
Yes and we will start at the beginning before uber gear was part of MMO. EQ1, AC, Shadowbane. All games where gear had a minimal impact on your characters success. However, Tera is a gear game like WOW don't think otherwise.
Gear matters, but that's natural for an MMO I think. There should always be some way to improve your character otherwise why play it?
Last time I played WoW (awhile ago), you couldn't play a retribution paladin and be effective. A couple months after I left, they were suddenly the best dps class in the game and in pvp. I'm sure that's changed since then, probably multiple times. That has nothing to do with gear and everything to do with class.
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
Yes and we will start at the beginning before uber gear was part of MMO. EQ1, AC, Shadowbane. All games where gear had a minimal impact on your characters success. However, Tera is a gear game like WOW don't think otherwise.
Gear matters, but that's natural for an MMO I think. There should always be some way to improve your character otherwise why play it?
Last time I played WoW (awhile ago), you couldn't play a retribution paladin and be effective. A couple months after I left, they were suddenly the best dps class in the game and in pvp. I'm sure that's changed since then, probably multiple times. That has nothing to do with gear and everything to do with class.
haven't played wow in a very long time but last I checked you were not "stuck" as being a ret pally and could respec to a more pvp friendly spec and be comptetative.. still as a gear based skill only really matters once gear is equal, hence why pvp is more fun when everyone is on a level playing field imho. Why did people play CS for years on end or many FPS games back in the day before they added a variety of advancements.. people played for the fun of PVP. I used to be into the gear "carrot" treadmil type PVP but over the years it really has lost interest to me. For one you struggle your way up the ranks to get top gear then once at top its not much challenge unless you are playing other equally geared openents.. For me the even playing field with gear and then giving players other "benefits" such as new skills and such is a much better way to do PVP for me and glad some upcoming games are going this route
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
Yes and we will start at the beginning before uber gear was part of MMO. EQ1, AC, Shadowbane. All games where gear had a minimal impact on your characters success. However, Tera is a gear game like WOW don't think otherwise.
Gear matters, but that's natural for an MMO I think. There should always be some way to improve your character otherwise why play it?
Last time I played WoW (awhile ago), you couldn't play a retribution paladin and be effective. A couple months after I left, they were suddenly the best dps class in the game and in pvp. I'm sure that's changed since then, probably multiple times. That has nothing to do with gear and everything to do with class.
This isn't necessarily true at all, and its the belief that GW2 is essentially built to dispel, whether it is succesful or not, the idea that MMOs have to be about progression is dated. The fact is that the limitations that an MMO puts on gameplay have forced the genre to use progression and character development as a crutch, but those limitations are becoming weaker as time passes. Look at what planetside 2 is doing for instance. The fact is that we don't have to have boring hotbar combat anymore, tera took a step in the right direction, but only a step. Planetside 2 is moving even further, and guild wars 2, while it's combat system isn't necessarily revolutionary, is making an attempt at creating a game in which people enjoy the gameplay more than the progression.
Gear doesn't have to be important in MMOs, particularly in PvP. A lot of people would prefer to have gear be meaningless like in GW2 so they could play on even footing and test their skill against players with more time. As it stands, if you have a life you don't really have a chance in a lot of games with significant gear grinds. I'm a hardcore gamer who plays more than 40 hours a week so even from my perspective it's fairly obvious that a player who plays maybe 15-20 hours will never be able to compete with me... ever... Even if he eventually gets to end game and starts getting gear, it's only a matter of time before the devs add new dungeons with new and better gear sets.
This changes in GW2 and will change as time goes on. A lot of people prefer even, competitive environments to progression dependent MMOs. It ties in with the esports movement to some degree. People just love competition. Progression can also come in other forms as it does in GW2. Statistical upgrading/progression feels good, no doubt, but so can cosmetic progression. Unlocking new gear sets that distinguish you as a dedicated or skilled player is fun as well.
This isn't necessarily true at all, and its the belief that GW2 is essentially built to dispel, whether it is succesful or not, the idea that MMOs have to be about progression is dated. The fact is that the limitations that an MMO puts on gameplay have forced the genre to use progression and character development as a crutch, but those limitations are becoming weaker as time passes. Look at what planetside 2 is doing for instance. The fact is that we don't have to have boring hotbar combat anymore, tera took a step in the right direction, but only a step. Planetside 2 is moving even further, and guild wars 2, while it's combat system isn't necessarily revolutionary, is making an attempt at creating a game in which people enjoy the gameplay more than the progression.
Gear doesn't have to be important in MMOs, particularly in PvP. A lot of people would prefer to have gear be meaningless like in GW2 so they could play on even footing and test their skill against players with more time. As it stands, if you have a life you don't really have a chance in a lot of games with significant gear grinds. I'm a hardcore gamer who plays more than 40 hours a week so even from my perspective it's fairly obvious that a player who plays maybe 15-20 hours will never be able to compete with me... ever... Even if he eventually gets to end game and starts getting gear, it's only a matter of time before the devs add new dungeons with new and better gear sets.
This changes in GW2 and will change as time goes on. A lot of people prefer even, competitive environments to progression dependent MMOs. It ties in with the esports movement to some degree. People just love competition. Progression can also come in other forms as it does in GW2. Statistical upgrading/progression feels good, no doubt, but so can cosmetic progression. Unlocking new gear sets that distinguish you as a dedicated or skilled player is fun as well.
PS2 is a fps so its going to be different period XD While equal gear is nice for a pvp, however the main problem is pve. there is no point in pve w/o gear progression, while i don't mind a pure pvp game, idk if a large game can surive w/o the large pve community as well.
PS2 is a fps so its going to be different period XD While equal gear is nice for a pvp, however the main problem is pve. there is no point in pve w/o gear progression, while i don't mind a pure pvp game, idk if a large game can surive w/o the large pve community as well.
so why can't a game have both? PVE with gear progression AND competative PVP without gear progression? glad some games are starting to figure this out.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
PS2 is a fps so its going to be different period XD While equal gear is nice for a pvp, however the main problem is pve. there is no point in pve w/o gear progression, while i don't mind a pure pvp game, idk if a large game can surive w/o the large pve community as well.
so why can't a game have both? PVE with gear progression AND competative PVP without gear progression? glad some games are starting to figure this out.
This.
But also, PvE isn't necessarily pointless without gear progression. I understand where you're coming from, and I agree to some extent. I probably wouldn't PvE in any MMORPG without progression, that said, that doesn't make it rule. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean it will or should always be that way. We need progression in PvE either because PvE gameplay just isn't fun enough intrinsically, or because we're used to being rewarded. Psychology studies have shown that rewarding a behavior that initially was fun in and of itself is actually detrimental because it removes the fun of the activity and the person starts doing the thing only because they are rewarded, the enjoyment they used to get from just doing it becomes nonexistent and if the reward is removed the person has no motivation. I think that, unfortunately, is what has happened in the MMO industry. Where, at some point, people just enjoyed the challenge of raiding and the social aspect of working with a team, we now do it almost entirely for the reward at the end.
I'm not sure if that will ever change. It's something that is hard to undo, but regardless, I think MMORPG players are prone to think inside of the box too much. We think that PvE is a certain way, you have your hotbar skills, you go through dungeons, you kill monsters, but I don't think it has to be that way. Developers will think outside of the box and break the mold eventually and create PvE that isn't something we're used to, that isn't hacking and slashing through a dungeon... Something interesting and fresh. I just think that as MMO players most of us think that MMORPG combat and gameplay will always be a certain way otherwise it isn't an MMORPG, but I think that this genre is going to change a lot as technology allows developers to apply MMO elements to much more interesting, dynamic, and fun combat.
PS2 is a fps so its going to be different period XD While equal gear is nice for a pvp, however the main problem is pve. there is no point in pve w/o gear progression, while i don't mind a pure pvp game, idk if a large game can surive w/o the large pve community as well.
so why can't a game have both? PVE with gear progression AND competative PVP without gear progression? glad some games are starting to figure this out.
This.
But also, PvE isn't necessarily pointless without gear progression. I understand where you're coming from, and I agree to some extent. I probably wouldn't PvE in any MMORPG without progression, that said, that doesn't make it rule. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean it will or should always be that way. We need progression in PvE either because PvE gameplay just isn't fun enough intrinsically, or because we're used to being rewarded. Psychology studies have shown that rewarding a behavior that initially was fun in and of itself is actually detrimental because it removes the fun of the activity and the person starts doing the thing only because they are rewarded, the enjoyment they used to get from just doing it becomes nonexistent and if the reward is removed the person has no motivation. I think that, unfortunately, is what has happened in the MMO industry. Where, at some point, people just enjoyed the challenge of raiding and the social aspect of working with a team, we now do it almost entirely for the reward at the end.
I'm not sure if that will ever change. It's something that is hard to undo, but regardless, I think MMORPG players are prone to think inside of the box too much. We think that PvE is a certain way, you have your hotbar skills, you go through dungeons, you kill monsters, but I don't think it has to be that way. Developers will think outside of the box and break the mold eventually and create PvE that isn't something we're used to, that isn't hacking and slashing through a dungeon... Something interesting and fresh. I just think that as MMO players most of us think that MMORPG combat and gameplay will always be a certain way otherwise it isn't an MMORPG, but I think that this genre is going to change a lot as technology allows developers to apply MMO elements to much more interesting, dynamic, and fun combat.
The thing with PvE w/o award is that it get boring fast, PvP doesn't because you fight different people and everyone person and experience is different because people changes. PvE doesn't, what you have is what you have. Once you done it few time its always going to be the same so unless dev team can crack up new content at an impossible speed its pretty much impossible to keep it up. I mean look at single player games, they takes years to develop and only the sand box ones last you more than 60 hrs or so. Or Way less if you look at any of the recent fps titles.
And i do agree just make no gear progression in pvp would be great however that means your focus on instance based pvp, because if you have open world the PvE gear is going to kick in = i guess a simple solution allow people to have 2 set of armor on, and when your fighting monster the PvE set kicks in and when you fight player PvP set kicks in.
However looking foward to BG and i guess even the nexus pvp gear because they aren't hard to get, and everyone going to have it which pretty much even up the pvp field a lot more.
But honestly gear matters only so much at lvl cap, i till have none enchantable lance and only +6 armor set on my lancer and i have no problem beating people in full +9... well i'm used to fighting my guild and they are all really good which makes most duels outside seem so easy lol XD
Honestly that sound like a failing on PVE in part. I've managed to spend over half of my last play in Skyrim using the same weapon and armor specifically because of my preference in those items.
I'd say more important than gear progression is being able to develop something personal in that regard. Could be that I've just never been one to consider ramping up hp and damage and forcing people to stack larger stats so they can do the same thing, but with bigger numbers, to actually be fun or provide a real challenge, it's just artificial difficulty and makes things into a chore. More rewarding if they would aim to make a system that allowed them to create mobs that have their own combat patterns or unique weaknesses that you can learn and exploit so that while an individual fight boils down to formula, they can be mixed into batches of enemies to provide the need to mix up your actions between each foe.
I honestly fail to see the value in gear progression in that regard. But I also generally don't consider myself by any means the average on such issues.
EDIT: I should say, I love collecting gear, but I inevitably use things very specifically because I like their aesthetics or have developed some form of affinity or attachment to the item. Perhaps if one perceives that there must be gear progression a module system that lets people keep the things they want, but progress them in stats by removing and replacing the components over time would work well.
One of the few things that I thought was really awesome about SWTOR. Dunno how Tera treats this stuff. I assume it's more traditional.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I've been thinking and as an MMO vet, I can't think of another game where skill and ability to pay attention and react matter more than class.
Gear is still very important, and Lancers currently have a lockdown on tank so their class is important, but really, can anyone think of an MMO where skill and attention span and reaction time mattered so much? The difference between dps classes of equal gear is going to be very much mostly dependent on who's better and who plays better throughout the battle.
I think this is a great thing and should be touted loudly by fans as being a selling point.
No more waiting on the whim of the devs to be good at your job in the game, potentially waiting months and then suddenly becoming better than everyone else, only to suck again in a few months.
It's a side-effect of the targetting system, but still it's important to note.
Yes and we will start at the beginning before uber gear was part of MMO. EQ1, AC, Shadowbane. All games where gear had a minimal impact on your characters success. However, Tera is a gear game like WOW don't think otherwise.
Gear matters, but that's natural for an MMO I think. There should always be some way to improve your character otherwise why play it?
Last time I played WoW (awhile ago), you couldn't play a retribution paladin and be effective. A couple months after I left, they were suddenly the best dps class in the game and in pvp. I'm sure that's changed since then, probably multiple times. That has nothing to do with gear and everything to do with class.
haven't played wow in a very long time but last I checked you were not "stuck" as being a ret pally and could respec to a more pvp friendly spec and be comptetative.. still as a gear based skill only really matters once gear is equal, hence why pvp is more fun when everyone is on a level playing field imho. Why did people play CS for years on end or many FPS games back in the day before they added a variety of advancements.. people played for the fun of PVP. I used to be into the gear "carrot" treadmil type PVP but over the years it really has lost interest to me. For one you struggle your way up the ranks to get top gear then once at top its not much challenge unless you are playing other equally geared openents.. For me the even playing field with gear and then giving players other "benefits" such as new skills and such is a much better way to do PVP for me and glad some upcoming games are going this route
No, you weren't stuck playing a specific class, but my point is that in TERA your effectiveness in what you do is never tied to the whims of the devs. You will never go from worthless to godmode and back again, forcing people to reroll if they want to be effective.
It shoudln't be surprising since the skill required to play WoW is minimal, so they had to find some way to differentiate players.
"New skills" instead of gear can be just as overpowering, depending on the skills offered.
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Maybe I missed something when I played, but I don't think pressing this button while your ship automatically spins around another can really be counted as skill...
And does it truly count as skill when you can gain points while not even logged in?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Didn't buy TERA yet, so can't comment on what happens at higher levels, but, from what i've read and watched, it's the same has other mmos':
- Different levels and gear: No skill needed (some here more than other mmos, however)
- Same level and gera: 100% skill based. It is an action game after all. Many QQ about animation locks, but even fighting games have them to make sure you plan your attacks carefuly. I remember playing DB Budokai 3 with a friend., and many times i tried to use Kamehameha without planing, he side steped, and because i was locked in place, he used is special attack and i couldn't dodge.
The question is: How hard is it to obtain gear that puts you on the same levels? It isn't the first i think, but more skill, twicth, reaction based than most mmorpg.
Tera combat s about 50% of how amazing Darkfall combat is.
Any vet who has played both Darfall and Tera would aggree.
But yep, the grind to get a proper endgame char is a bit silly.
Gears wise isn't really that hard, although honestly if your a dps its much much much faster to grind normal mobs for gold to buy your gear than farming for it as of now lol. in the 1-2hr it takes to queue for a dungeon i can farm about 500g ish an hour which is enough to probabaly get a glove or a boot. So 2hr i already have my lvl 20 enchantable glove/boot. Than proabbly other i want to say 4-6hrs for the armor piece depending on your class and other i say 10hrs top for your weapon if you just grind for gold period. While more boring than doing dungeon at least you don't wait like 1-2hrs for a run to hope you get your drop lol. Although its probabaly good diea to combine the 2 method. But ya if you try to just farm it from dungeon its pure luck, however if you grind it out and buy it i say less than a week tops and you have your fully T12 enchantable set. Getting T13 is other story lol.
Also for PvP gear as of now you do nexus, which is 3 days a week 2 day each. About a month of nexus before your first piece of gear. Now it sounds bad but really isn't. Nexus give you rep points when you do it, thing is rep is split in to your rep status and your rep credit. So you start at netural->favorable->friendly->trust->revered So to buy T12 pvp gear you need friendly and T13 you need revered. So you probabaly get enough of the credit to buy T13 gear way before you even hit friendly=P so i guess people go for the T12 pvp gear first which takes about 2 weeks if you go to all 6 each week to get your first piece and i like to say about 3 nexus per piece? Its not bad if you can make it =X
I have not been a 60 slayer for too long but I think a lot of people under estimate the skill gap between slayers (its a pretty large gap). Sure if a player is ignorant in how a slayer is played then hes likely to get crushed in 1v1 by one even if its a bad slayer. Most of the people I see complaining about slayers being OP really have no idea how to deal with one.
Edit: less relevant now that I realized you specified against melee.
There is sooooo much more to it then that, and time based progression is necessary in my opinion because if there were "levels" everyone who rushed to get the requirements to fly the best ships would be terrible pilots due to the fact that they have no experience.
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My cousin plays a slayer and i got to test out some pvp with the class, I think the main reason people say they're easy mode is because of the ranged attack they get that absolutely destroys ranged classes.
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DCUO, you can actually beat someone who's considerably higher level then you, and without using the animation glitch.
Wish more games would use the TERA and DCUO style of combat more.
TERA is all about gear + ping(lag), anyone who have played a FPS game or even a console arcade knows how to aim, BUt skill on tera? just no.
Well, skill do matterin Tera, but after trying both it and GW2 I must say it matters more there compared to class. Tera is still a trinity game in the base for good and bad, and when you in GW2 changes fast between the roles Tera have a hard time keeping up. Dodging is not unsimilar in both games, GW2 don´t have Teras aiming though but I still felt it demanded more skill.
Tera is pretty good, but I hope they add an alternative weapon to all all the classes later, that would add more flexibility to the system.
S'allright. You can't really have any discussion where the undefined term "skill" is the primary point of contention anyway.
Ex: "Hey OP, you're wrong, what about (oldgame)?" "Like OMG that game took no skill at all."
Simple denial is the most complex form the argument can take.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I was thinking of bringing up DCUO, but the problem there is that there were too many glitches and exploits, making it hard to distinguish a skilled player from an exploiter. Some might even argue using the exploits was a form of skill.
LOL!!! Yeah ok...
Let me get that 2 handed Axe of Ownage and walk up to a undergeared newb.
Lets see how much "Skill" comes into play then.
Sorry but any game that increases the power of a character through millions of gear set ups will never truly be about skill.
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That is true, however the main issue is with slayer is that they require much less skill to play and is REALLY hard for people who just starting out to counter. There what slayer do in pvp, distance blade, follow by a stun, than then down-down strike. Than if you get knocked down your fcked and if the slayer is good your probabaly dead. Slayer against ranged? distance blade out range all range classes (i know retarded XD), if archer put down a trap waiting for slayer, slayer can distance blade run away wait for cd and distance blade again and win against archers.... (ofc if the archer is stupid enough to keep it up)
Ya like ever other mmorpgs didn't have difference in gear because of lvl -.- Ofc you go fcking pick on lower lvl all kill is pretty much fcking nulled. Same with LoL, if some one get fcking disconnected for 10mins than come back they can be skill as hell doesn't prevent them from been fcking killed in 2s by some one who completely out farmed them by 10 mins -.-
Yes and we will start at the beginning before uber gear was part of MMO. EQ1, AC, Shadowbane. All games where gear had a minimal impact on your characters success. However, Tera is a gear game like WOW don't think otherwise.
Gear matters, but that's natural for an MMO I think. There should always be some way to improve your character otherwise why play it?
Last time I played WoW (awhile ago), you couldn't play a retribution paladin and be effective. A couple months after I left, they were suddenly the best dps class in the game and in pvp. I'm sure that's changed since then, probably multiple times. That has nothing to do with gear and everything to do with class.
haven't played wow in a very long time but last I checked you were not "stuck" as being a ret pally and could respec to a more pvp friendly spec and be comptetative.. still as a gear based skill only really matters once gear is equal, hence why pvp is more fun when everyone is on a level playing field imho. Why did people play CS for years on end or many FPS games back in the day before they added a variety of advancements.. people played for the fun of PVP. I used to be into the gear "carrot" treadmil type PVP but over the years it really has lost interest to me. For one you struggle your way up the ranks to get top gear then once at top its not much challenge unless you are playing other equally geared openents.. For me the even playing field with gear and then giving players other "benefits" such as new skills and such is a much better way to do PVP for me and glad some upcoming games are going this route
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This isn't necessarily true at all, and its the belief that GW2 is essentially built to dispel, whether it is succesful or not, the idea that MMOs have to be about progression is dated. The fact is that the limitations that an MMO puts on gameplay have forced the genre to use progression and character development as a crutch, but those limitations are becoming weaker as time passes. Look at what planetside 2 is doing for instance. The fact is that we don't have to have boring hotbar combat anymore, tera took a step in the right direction, but only a step. Planetside 2 is moving even further, and guild wars 2, while it's combat system isn't necessarily revolutionary, is making an attempt at creating a game in which people enjoy the gameplay more than the progression.
Gear doesn't have to be important in MMOs, particularly in PvP. A lot of people would prefer to have gear be meaningless like in GW2 so they could play on even footing and test their skill against players with more time. As it stands, if you have a life you don't really have a chance in a lot of games with significant gear grinds. I'm a hardcore gamer who plays more than 40 hours a week so even from my perspective it's fairly obvious that a player who plays maybe 15-20 hours will never be able to compete with me... ever... Even if he eventually gets to end game and starts getting gear, it's only a matter of time before the devs add new dungeons with new and better gear sets.
This changes in GW2 and will change as time goes on. A lot of people prefer even, competitive environments to progression dependent MMOs. It ties in with the esports movement to some degree. People just love competition. Progression can also come in other forms as it does in GW2. Statistical upgrading/progression feels good, no doubt, but so can cosmetic progression. Unlocking new gear sets that distinguish you as a dedicated or skilled player is fun as well.
PS2 is a fps so its going to be different period XD While equal gear is nice for a pvp, however the main problem is pve. there is no point in pve w/o gear progression, while i don't mind a pure pvp game, idk if a large game can surive w/o the large pve community as well.
so why can't a game have both? PVE with gear progression AND competative PVP without gear progression? glad some games are starting to figure this out.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This.
But also, PvE isn't necessarily pointless without gear progression. I understand where you're coming from, and I agree to some extent. I probably wouldn't PvE in any MMORPG without progression, that said, that doesn't make it rule. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn't mean it will or should always be that way. We need progression in PvE either because PvE gameplay just isn't fun enough intrinsically, or because we're used to being rewarded. Psychology studies have shown that rewarding a behavior that initially was fun in and of itself is actually detrimental because it removes the fun of the activity and the person starts doing the thing only because they are rewarded, the enjoyment they used to get from just doing it becomes nonexistent and if the reward is removed the person has no motivation. I think that, unfortunately, is what has happened in the MMO industry. Where, at some point, people just enjoyed the challenge of raiding and the social aspect of working with a team, we now do it almost entirely for the reward at the end.
I'm not sure if that will ever change. It's something that is hard to undo, but regardless, I think MMORPG players are prone to think inside of the box too much. We think that PvE is a certain way, you have your hotbar skills, you go through dungeons, you kill monsters, but I don't think it has to be that way. Developers will think outside of the box and break the mold eventually and create PvE that isn't something we're used to, that isn't hacking and slashing through a dungeon... Something interesting and fresh. I just think that as MMO players most of us think that MMORPG combat and gameplay will always be a certain way otherwise it isn't an MMORPG, but I think that this genre is going to change a lot as technology allows developers to apply MMO elements to much more interesting, dynamic, and fun combat.
The thing with PvE w/o award is that it get boring fast, PvP doesn't because you fight different people and everyone person and experience is different because people changes. PvE doesn't, what you have is what you have. Once you done it few time its always going to be the same so unless dev team can crack up new content at an impossible speed its pretty much impossible to keep it up. I mean look at single player games, they takes years to develop and only the sand box ones last you more than 60 hrs or so. Or Way less if you look at any of the recent fps titles.
And i do agree just make no gear progression in pvp would be great however that means your focus on instance based pvp, because if you have open world the PvE gear is going to kick in = i guess a simple solution allow people to have 2 set of armor on, and when your fighting monster the PvE set kicks in and when you fight player PvP set kicks in.
However looking foward to BG and i guess even the nexus pvp gear because they aren't hard to get, and everyone going to have it which pretty much even up the pvp field a lot more.
But honestly gear matters only so much at lvl cap, i till have none enchantable lance and only +6 armor set on my lancer and i have no problem beating people in full +9... well i'm used to fighting my guild and they are all really good which makes most duels outside seem so easy lol XD
Honestly that sound like a failing on PVE in part. I've managed to spend over half of my last play in Skyrim using the same weapon and armor specifically because of my preference in those items.
I'd say more important than gear progression is being able to develop something personal in that regard. Could be that I've just never been one to consider ramping up hp and damage and forcing people to stack larger stats so they can do the same thing, but with bigger numbers, to actually be fun or provide a real challenge, it's just artificial difficulty and makes things into a chore. More rewarding if they would aim to make a system that allowed them to create mobs that have their own combat patterns or unique weaknesses that you can learn and exploit so that while an individual fight boils down to formula, they can be mixed into batches of enemies to provide the need to mix up your actions between each foe.
I honestly fail to see the value in gear progression in that regard. But I also generally don't consider myself by any means the average on such issues.
EDIT: I should say, I love collecting gear, but I inevitably use things very specifically because I like their aesthetics or have developed some form of affinity or attachment to the item. Perhaps if one perceives that there must be gear progression a module system that lets people keep the things they want, but progress them in stats by removing and replacing the components over time would work well.
One of the few things that I thought was really awesome about SWTOR. Dunno how Tera treats this stuff. I assume it's more traditional.
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No, you weren't stuck playing a specific class, but my point is that in TERA your effectiveness in what you do is never tied to the whims of the devs. You will never go from worthless to godmode and back again, forcing people to reroll if they want to be effective.
It shoudln't be surprising since the skill required to play WoW is minimal, so they had to find some way to differentiate players.
"New skills" instead of gear can be just as overpowering, depending on the skills offered.