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The "trinity" is dead! Long live the "model"!
Nanulak
Member UncommonPosts: 372
Myself and many others never saw this coming. But the trinity that we loved is finally showing its age. And I think it may be bound to obsolescence.
Example: Once upon a time there was a game called Pong and we (at least those of us who remember B&W TV’s) all loved it. It showed us a way to entertain ourselves other than what we already had and the industry told us we need more of. Well we moved on and found better forms of entertainment usually offered as something new and different. We the consumer, then decided what we need more of and Pong went by the wayside.
No one is saying Pong is dead, but only that its model of entertainment is obsolete and the mainstream have moved on with their wallets to a better model.
After many cycles of the “in” thing all models eventually run their course and we as consumers find the next model to entertain us.
In the world of MMO’s the current and dated model of the trinity has not only reached its zenith but is currently on the decline.
So the question is what will the next model look like? I do not know for sure but I feel the wheels of change turning.
As I am not a prophet, I can’t speak on things about the future. But from the reading and research I have done, one can deduce a few things. The next “BIG” MMO will somehow abolish the limited parameters of the trinity and the constraints placed on gamers using this form of entertainment. And this new model, in some form, will be the next sensation that future MMO’s will be modeled after.
Understanding that with each “new” model, they build of the old and only make it better.
Just my thoughts. Let me know what you think.
Nanulak
Comments
I really really want to make a thread on this trinity topic I been seeing around here lately. But I will hold off for now. I still believe many of you Trinity haters are missing the big picture and unable to connect the dots. but please go on.
GW2 doesnt use the standard trinity, but realisitically, how long will the PvE in that game hold the masses before massive population drops?
I predict that GW2's Events and Instanced PvE wont hold people's interest for long, and this effect will cross over into the WvW feature, which is the main seller atm.
but I digress. the trinity haters are missing the big picture.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The trinity is just as dead as WoW is from all those "WoW-killers" in the past few years.
Well I certainly hope not, I enjoy playing a dedicated healer, would hate to see the mechanic disappear completely.
But you may well be right, many other mechanics that I enjoyed in earlier titles have gone the way of the Dodo so maybe this one will too.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For the Trinity to be dead, doesn't there need to be a game that doesn't utilize the Trinity? Let me know when you find one. And if you say GW2, I'm just going to laugh at you.
someone should make a game witth only tanks...or maybe only healers. Ya, sounds cool
Isn't it you that are missing the dots right now. DE's have basicly nothing to do with having trinity or not. Wich is shown btw with all the claims that Warhammer had DE's with the PQ systems, and nobody mixed that up with warhammer having trinity and GW2 didn't. So yes you digress big way.
WvW doesn't really have lack of trinity as it big sell point btw. WvW would properly do fine with trinity still there.
The main thing is not having to spend time wating to form a trinity group to just be able to do anything other than grind trash mobs. And then having combat that is not whack-a mole + damage and thread meters.
No matter how GW2 does in other areas, the point have been made that the trinity is not a given thing anymore.
And that i predict will set a new standard in 3-5 years when next gen mmo'scome out.
Wheter GW2 carebear themepark no subscribtion approach can keep players logged in is not going to chance that the game will set quite a few new standards. The lack of trinity being one
Diablo 3. Not a MMO, but close enough in play-style.
I havn't seen one used in GW2. Please elaborate, there is neither a tank, nor healer in the game. Of course you know that, so you're trolling . Guild Wars 2 is setting the standard and NWN and Elder Scrolls are following suit, two of the largest brands that will come out next.
If you like playing healer fine, the game is moving more to mimic it's dungeons and dragons forefather. Clerics don't just sit around in DND and cast cures. Rarely does a cleric cast more than 2 or 3 "cure spells" in combat. What you really like is support and games and the games i mentioned are mimicking this model.
As for tanking, the stupidist aspect of the trinity, well that's going to be gone from AAAs too.
As for OP,
It won't die no more than pong is dead. It just goes into decline, like in small world. It is still the cheapest and laziest way to design a game. So i see browser and cheaper games using it. AAA games though, well, that's another story. The market is flodded with wow clones to think sink money into the same old thing with a face lift.
You have a few misconceptions there ...
1. The Trinity was a product of the then existing game rules. It was NOT created by the game designers that much. However once the behaviour was observed, it was used as a feature.
2. The Trinity is based on what you'd perceive as logical conclusion. If you are threatened by something, you need some kind of protection (the tank). Then you want to get rid of the threat (the damage dealer). Also you need to sustain the threat for a period of time (the healer). This is just a strategy. There are many more possibilities, just the Trinity works best with the current crop of games.
3. We will never get rid of the Trinity unless MOBs start to think. They need to actively seek holes and weakneses during battle, not only having a script to play by. Try some PvP and you'll quickly discover that the Trinity does not work there. You have to use all the options you have and sometimes those NOT based on the Trinity are the most successful.
IMO the lack of trinity is GW2's greatest weakness and probably the reason I'll only play it for a month before being completely bored with it.
You say trinity is dead. I say every person who enjoy's gameplay other then dps just lost what they deem to be the fun part of mmo's.
Why does there have to be a single model that all games follow?
The Trinity is what gives players roles (A place in the group) going away from that makes less tactical gameplay. How I see it is going way from the Trinity (Take GW2 for example) we are going back to WWI and II tactics of just massive zergs and numbers to win instead of more updated modern tactics.
As the one poster stated that without Trinity you will not have good entertaining PvE until the AI is more advanced.
The core principle of the trinity (fortunately) is here to stay. For me no game has even got close to having any actual impact to make people believe that the trinity is obsolete. I would appreciate if people would refrain from even mentioning GW2 now which hasn't proved a single thing yet except being fun for many people in short play sessions. For me the GW2 BWEs are what Tortage and the free trial there was for Age of Conan.
I do like the basic approach of the trinity but I do think that for it to have a future the developers will actually have to make it more fluent and less being set in stone already in the very first minutes of the character's life. Dual/multi spec features are definitely a step in the right direction. Maybe some day developers will even go a few steps further there.
Can you shows your research, please? After, i can use "research" too. WOW and AION, the most played mmorpg on the planet, use trinity so that means most of the playerbase is happy with it, so it's not going to die. However, i would like to see other formates. But keep trying to use and improve the trinity.
Also, why are you using Pong as an example?
You have it backwards. Guild Wars has no trinity (dedicated healers, but not tanks or dedicated DPS), yet has greater tactical variety than any trinity-based combat I've seen. Well, at least if you eschew the PVE-only cheats, it does. If you use the PVE-only cheats, then sure, you kill the variety, but the same would be true of anything analogous in a trinity-based combat game.
Darkfall.
I believed this before I even became a GW2 fanboi. The trinity system with dedicated healer, tank, dps is old and has needed a fix for a long time.
Its realy interesting how in this entire Original post you didn't hint at or even direct any mention towards Guild Wars 2 yet ignorant replies instantly start jumping out and showing their lack of understanding. "If you say Guild Wars 2 I'm just going to laugh at you.." simply ignorant.
Guild wars 2 is doing it, and is doing it extremely well. It might not be the end all end all but by god its better then anyone else has ever done. The original post is about the Trinity system and how its going to the way side not about Guild Wars 2 and its take on questing and or its take on anything. Seems like some people have blind hatred for the next big thing just because it seems like the cool thing to do.
ANET maybe aiming in that direction and maybe months down the line after launch it some how ends because the mayan calender ends in december... But its a great start to begin evolving the genre away from an old stale system.
I do not think the trinity will die. GW2 still has a trinity, just a step to the side. I have played all 3 roles of the trinity, tank, healer, and dps. And my favorite is healer, does that mean i'll dislike any game that changes the trinity? No I won't, I'll take it as it's own seperate game & style. If I like the changes they make, I'll play it. If I don't like the change's, I won't play it. Nor do I wan't another WoW clone, we have enough of those don't you think? If a developer make's a game unique in some way's other than look and lore, imo they deserve some prop's for taking a risk even if I end up hating the game.
World of Tanks :P
The great Trinity debate, just as fruitless as the threads on Sandbox mmogs.
Does Gw2 have a Rigid, Standard High Fantasy, Aggro mechanics included Trinity ? No.
Will gameplay in combat games FOREVER utilize a Tank , Healer, and Dpser. Yes.
It's how we as gamers play games with other people, the line can only be blured with interesting mechanics. So ... its really just up to the player, does he feel the trinity is present or is it blurry enough he thinks its a new standard.
I laugh at you ha ha, first you have to understand what one is.
linking Trinity to being a WoW Clone?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
To think after all these years I was still having a great time playing Ms Pac-man, thank goodness a thesaurus-wielding forum dweller has set me right, the pacman model is obsolete. What was I ever thinking.
Wait, what about Pong? Well simply projecting an object at an obstacle is also dead apparently and indeed NOT FUN AT ALL. Damn you Angry Birds and your obsolete simplistic model.
And later on when I logon to EQ2, my fun factor will decrease hundred-fold simply because I was told so. All of us having a great time on EQ2 for all these years apparently are incapable of thinking for ourselves and must be told what to like by our new elected MMORPG spokesman.
Or maybe next time stop the contradictive preacher bit and let people like/dislike what they want.
"But the trinity that we loved is finally showing its age. And I think it may be bound to obsolescence."
Followed by...
"As I am not a prophet, I can’t speak on things about the future. "
Nope, sorry was just using WoW as an example as too what people think how a trinity need's to be. Btw this is just my opinion.
You do realize that GW2 isn't the topic of this thread, even if Anet did initiate the whole discussion. It's just one game out of a few that are drifting away from the 'trinity' model.
1) I've seen a few people try and equate 'the trinity' model, with any game mechanics that have 3 components. This is not only wrong, but very misleading. The trinity model is referring to a very specific 'tank, healer, dps' group dynamic that has been present in nearly every MMORPG over the passed decade. Having 3 roles, does not mean a game has a holy trinity, and is indeed a different system if it is not based around 'tanking (hate generation), healing, and dps'.
2) There are a number of games that have gotten away from the trinity model. Eve has done it, GW2 has done it, Planetside2 has done it. TSW is trying to do it, but it's unclear as to whether or not that will really stick once the game goes live (currently in beta, people are still going w/ tank, healer, dps).
- I will not say that the trinity is 'dead', as we are still seeing games being made with it. Most noteably the new Elder Scrolls MMO that so many people are cringing over. However, there seems to be enough of a desire to drift away from that model that studios are taking notice. Some are coming up w/ newer systems, while others are simply trying to hide the fact that they are still using this mechanic.
We're also seeing a number of different approaches to this. We have the FPS method, which resembles something more along the lines of a TF or Tribes game. We also have modified hotbar games that don't use hate as a method of aggro, and instead rely on a number of other factors to decide who gets an enemy's attention. This means more chaotic fights, as well as PvE that feels a lot more like PvP in some cases.
Not sure what the tinfoil hat theorycrafting is about, but the OP does have some good points.