No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
Explain...why does GW2 have classes then?
Explain to me why WoW, a game with holy trinity has a Mage Class, a Warlock Class, a thief Class and a Ranger Class?
They are all DPS, right?
That means they play exactly the same, right?
Shouldn't WOW just remove all those classes and makea single DPS class?
Answer my question to the best of your ability, and i'll answer yours to the best of mine...it's only polite since I asked mines first.
It is simple they play differently and have differen't approaches on how to fullfil their roles in combat.
Just like WoW Mage plays different to a Warlock dispite their roles ideal damage.
Like wise a Engineer is a class that will fullfil its roles using an assortment of technological gadgets and potions, a Warrior will fullfil its role using a diversity of weapons and battle tatics, a guardian will focus on holy magic to complement its weapons and protect its allies, an elementalist will use the power of elements to rain fire on enemies or blind them with dirt, a thief will use shadowstep and invisibility, a necromancer will use the power of death magic and curses, a mesmer will create clones and illusions and use chaos, etc.
So with that said, does not WoW produce the sameness with it's classes i.e Mages providing DPS in the form of elemental damage, Rangers and Rogues providing DPS in the form of physical damage each of these providing soft or hard crowd control at range or within melee.
I don't know, but the games seem quite similar in roles you play, except GW2 seems to give the sembalance of diversity by allowing you "off-trinity" options within your base class.
Actually the trinity is merely the roles (tanking, healer, and dps/support.) that are needed to be filled in a group to progress thru content. Now the classes in trinity systems are largely just a dffering style of doing/fullfilling your role/job in the group. Since both a warrior an paladin tanks go about tanking slightly different (in the case of prior to lk very different.) using or brring different abilities to achieve their excusion of thier role in the group. Yet in many mmos using te trinity system you do not asked for a class (unless that is the best or only class that can heal.), but instead send out a general request for any class that can fill the role needed, which still falls under the trinity is about the roles not the clases.
In many ways you can say that in gw2 they have minimized tanking an healing to making it mandatory for all, and tanking being done thru postioning and evasion which is still tanking. Yet in completing the content it is hwo well you do all three of the roles, evading damage or getting mobs off weakened players, healing damage taken by you, and dpsing the target when possible. In this way both games use a trinity, but the fact is that the focus and functions of two fo the roles have be adjusted quite abit.
Tanking in mainstream trinity is about soak damage as well as keeping the attention of a target/s, while gw2 it is about protecting allies an minimize damage thru evading it. Healing in mainstream trinity is about keeping the other players alive, while in gw2 it is about dealing with damage that is dealt to you when you miss a dodge or get caught. While in both dps s about maximizing your damage, while cc/debuffing targets of interest (that is the job of a dps origanally after the forth part of the original set-up was rolled into it.) hence why dps have a large deal with cc an debuffs.Though it is all in how the roles are filled, what functions are used, and also the focus on the role are placed that is the large dfference, because of the minor focus o the healer an tanking roles it feels like a non-trinity set-up.
It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
From a game design '50 km above ground' level point of view, this post doesn't really make sense.
Unless they changed from the last beta, GW2 doesn't get 'rid' of the trinity model. It gives every class all 3 roles and lets the player decide which one they want at a certain time.
A warrior picking up a rifle to turn into a 'range dps' still means a player is a 'dps'.
Trinity is not a 'design flaw'. That's like saying bicycles are a design flaw cause we have cars now.
It is an old model that gets modification (depending on the game) but at its core, it is a sound design.
Incorrect, still. You don't decide which role to play at a given time. You have skills that have one or more damage, control or support aspects associated with them, and you use the right skills as needed. Let's look at your warrior with a rifle as an example:
As you can see, not a pure dps character. You're applying damage, yes, but there's also a fair share of control as well with cripples and knockbacks. You can add vulnerability, which is something you'd want to do before, say, unleashing a kill shot. Combines with utility skills, traits, etc. you can actually wind up with an extremely balanced character that buffs allies, controls enemies and brings the pain, all on a single build and used when best needed.
DPS classes in other games have debuffs and control as well. There is nothing ground breaking in this set up. I think what they've done is fairly lazy. They've done away entirely with the role of healer and tank and replaced it all entirely with utility dps. Now, the game may be good in spite of that. The desire for fps mechanics and dps only toons aside, this is just catering to console style gamers whcih is most of the upcoming gneration and may be smart business, what makes an mmo good in my opinion is content. If they have good content the game will succeed, if they don't it will even faster than most mmos because people are going to get tired of dps rvr zergs even quicker than other games.
DPS classes in other games have debuffs and control as well. There is nothing ground breaking in this set up. I think what they've done is fairly lazy. They've done away entirely with the role of healer and tank and replaced it all entirely with utility dps. Now, the game may be good in spite of that. The desire for fps mechanics and dps only toons aside, this is just catering to console style gamers whcih is most of the upcoming gneration and may be smart business, what makes an mmo good in my opinion is content. If they have good content the game will succeed, if they don't it will even faster than most mmos because people are going to get tired of dps rvr zergs even quicker than other games.
... it's not easier to do things without a holy trinity.
Holy trinity is one of the easiest designs possible at its very basis. The holy trinity isn't what makes a game design difficult.
Ever noticed how many really really shitty F2P games use the holy trinity system? It's easy. You could program it in BASIC. It was originally designed for use with MUDs.
It's a DIFFERENT game design, not easier. You're acting like they just pulled the trinity out and replaced it with 0 things characters can do, and everybody is just one vague undefined blob. :T
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
Explain...why does GW2 have classes then?
Explain to me why WoW, a game with holy trinity has a Mage Class, a Warlock Class, a thief Class and a Ranger Class?
They are all DPS, right?
That means they play exactly the same, right?
Shouldn't WOW just remove all those classes and makea single DPS class?
Answer my question to the best of your ability, and i'll answer yours to the best of mine...it's only polite since I asked mines first.
It is simple they play differently and have differen't approaches on how to fullfil their roles in combat.
Just like WoW Mage plays different to a Warlock dispite their roles ideal damage.
Like wise a Engineer is a class that will fullfil its roles using an assortment of technological gadgets and potions, a Warrior will fullfil its role using a diversity of weapons and battle tatics, a guardian will focus on holy magic to complement its weapons and protect its allies, an elementalist will use the power of elements to rain fire on enemies or blind them with dirt, a thief will use shadowstep and invisibility, a necromancer will use the power of death magic and curses, a mesmer will create clones and illusions and use chaos, etc.
So with that said, does not WoW produce the sameness with it's classes i.e Mages providing DPS in the form of elemental damage, Rangers and Rogues providing DPS in the form of physical damage each of these providing soft or hard crowd control at range or within melee.
I don't know, but the games seem quite similar in roles you play, except GW2 seems to give the sembalance of diversity by allowing you "off-trinity" options within your base class.
But the varitey an uniqueness of each class comes from the fact as the battle progresses and changes you need to use your different mechanics to answer the problems.
If the healer dies in WOW, can anyone else fullfil the roles of it? Or if the tank dies? Or if the DPS dudes are wiped can the tank and the healer kill the boss?
In GW2 the party keeps fighting, you have solutions, one or two guys go rez the falling dude, while the others try to use their tools to buy time.
It is like vanilla WOW hybrids - except there is no healing class (at best there are a couple of weak aoe heals or some moderate ones that have long cooldowns) since there is no ally targetting and there is no threath mechanic, meaning at any time a mob may decide to switch targets (look into GW1 if you think that isn't possible).. With no one as the guranteed target and no one capable of fullfiling the healing role, everyone needs to be a hybrid.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
When you understand the connection between "dying" and "trying to tank", then you will have taken your first step towards enlightenment.
Yeah especially those tho think they can just fill the roles anyways. Have them try that on a boss or in an explore dungeon in GW2 they'll learn about the 20th time of dying. It amazes me how people can't seem to let go.
Seriously starting to doubt that either of you have actually played GW2, or at best you've never gotten pass level 10.
Considering how much time you've spent mentioning you're not interesting in GW2, I somehow find it a lot easier to believe they've played, rather than you.
After all, I've gotten to 35, and I agree with them. Trying the traditional tank role in GW2 is about as effective as hitting the 'logout' button.
Eh no. No matter how you look at it, most of the time you will always see a heavy armor char holding a boss's attention and keeping himself alive with selective skills while a good chunk of damage dealers stay afar... Granted pure direct healing might have just faded away but there are parts of it still alive. So yah. Not dead. I hate to bring GW2 as an example but here goes. I found that champion bosses always seemed to attack the heavy armored melee people like guardians who use self heals and traits to increase survivability. Also, classes like elementalists have aoe healing abilities and traits to further increase their effectiveness. So despite anet's claim that the trinity is dead is untrue. It will always exist in some form because it is actually pretty damn effective
DPS classes in other games have debuffs and control as well. There is nothing ground breaking in this set up. I think what they've done is fairly lazy. They've done away entirely with the role of healer and tank and replaced it all entirely with utility dps. Now, the game may be good in spite of that. The desire for fps mechanics and dps only toons aside, this is just catering to console style gamers whcih is most of the upcoming gneration and may be smart business, what makes an mmo good in my opinion is content. If they have good content the game will succeed, if they don't it will even faster than most mmos because people are going to get tired of dps rvr zergs even quicker than other games.
Do you think it is easier to have to fullfil 3 roles instead of 1?
Don't people often compain that players can't get out of the green goo?
Now in GW2 you have to get out of the green goo, need to dodge attacks, need to survive while being attacked, need to manage your health (no one is there to do it for you), need to be battle aware, need to debuff enemies and buff allies.
You think that from a player perspective that is easier?
And from the developer perspecive you don't think it is hard to balance a system where everyone can suddenly be targetted and is expected to survive?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Eh no. No matter how you look at it, most of the time you will always see a heavy armor char holding a boss's attention and keeping himself alive with selective skills while a good chunk of damage dealers stay afar... Granted pure direct healing might have just faded away but there are parts of it still alive. So yah. Not dead. I hate to bring GW2 as an example but here goes. I found that champion bosses always seemed to attack the heavy armored melee people like guardians who use self heals and traits to increase survivability. Also, classes like elementalists have aoe healing abilities and traits to further increase their effectiveness. So despite anet's claim that the trinity is dead is untrue. It will always exist in some form because it is actually pretty damn effective
They aren't targetting the heavy armored characters, they are targetting the closest target - those are basic low level bosses. Even GW1 AI targetted lower armor characters first.
Curiously, people been complaining that melee is too hard because the bosses deal so much damage and so they die easily.
Interesing, isn't it?
Maybe, just maybe they are dying too often because they are trying to tank it and they can't?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
Explain...why does GW2 have classes then?
Explain to me why WoW, a game with holy trinity has a Mage Class, a Warlock Class, a thief Class and a Ranger Class?
They are all DPS, right?
That means they play exactly the same, right?
Shouldn't WOW just remove all those classes and makea single DPS class?
Answer my question to the best of your ability, and i'll answer yours to the best of mine...it's only polite since I asked mines first.
It is simple they play differently and have differen't approaches on how to fullfil their roles in combat.
Just like WoW Mage plays different to a Warlock dispite their roles ideal damage.
Like wise a Engineer is a class that will fullfil its roles using an assortment of technological gadgets and potions, a Warrior will fullfil its role using a diversity of weapons and battle tatics, a guardian will focus on holy magic to complement its weapons and protect its allies, an elementalist will use the power of elements to rain fire on enemies or blind them with dirt, a thief will use shadowstep and invisibility, a necromancer will use the power of death magic and curses, a mesmer will create clones and illusions and use chaos, etc.
So with that said, does not WoW produce the sameness with it's classes i.e Mages providing DPS in the form of elemental damage, Rangers and Rogues providing DPS in the form of physical damage each of these providing soft or hard crowd control at range or within melee.
I don't know, but the games seem quite similar in roles you play, except GW2 seems to give the sembalance of diversity by allowing you "off-trinity" options within your base class.
But the varitey an uniqueness of each class comes from the fact as the battle progresses and changes you need to use your different mechanics to answer the problems.
If the healer dies in WOW, can anyone else fullfil the roles of it? Or if the tank dies? Or if the DPS dudes are wiped can the tank and the healer kill the boss?
In GW2 the party keeps fighting, you have solutions, one or two guys go rez the falling dude, while the others try to use their tools to buy time.
It is like vanilla WOW hybrids - except there is no healing class (at best there are a couple of weak aoe heals or some moderate ones that have long cooldowns) since there is no ally targetting and there is no threath mechanic, meaning at any time a mob may decide to switch targets (look into GW1 if you think that isn't possible).. With no one as the guranteed target and no one capable of fullfiling the healing role, everyone needs to be a hybrid.
Right, but it doesn't kill the idea off the trinity.....at some point someone is going to have to have aggro....what happens when they reach this point would depend on their preparedness. So this player would now need to A). utilize combat abilities which will allow him to avoid/mitigate/absorb damage while he has aggro (a.k.a. tanking), . somehow remove himself from the range of threat to the mob so he can resume DPSing.
You say lack of dedicated healer, but i've watch several videos of dynamic events where downed players could've been easily revived by another player that dedicated themselves to the role of running around "F"ing other players..... no one did of course, but i'm sure it could've happened.
Originally posted by azmundai So in GW2, when a Big Ass Monster hits a guy with sheets for armor it does the same amount of damage as it does when it hits a guy with steel for armor? That would be pretty mundane. Im all for variety, but a game which doesnt have fights that need more healing than 1 person can provide for itself sounds pretty boring. Cant wait to try it someday .. but not holding my breath either.
No, but it still hits him for a shitload.
People in big ass armor with large health pools last longer, but not long enough. And they can never insure that they have agro.
Sounds like everyone just dies and rezzes a lot?
Well... it's not quite that simple. You just ahve to get your hands on it.
There is a lot of bob and weaving. Debuffing. Snares (CC in general). All those things can be pretty much used on everything, including the big ass boss monsters. It rewards coordination a lot. You can have your thief keep up 25 stacks of vulnerability and mix in some cripples to help the group. Once the big mean boss turns toward you, someone else should take lead with the cripples so you can simply walk away.
I don't know, it actually turns into a pretty fun experience.
So they've removed the trinity by making everyone a hybrid Tank/Healer or DPS/Healer. Such innovation. The "combat dance" gets old quick too. Do the dance a few times, fun, do it 10000 times, boring. Same as everything else. EQ1 had encounters that required this kind of thing. WoW has this kind of thing. There's nothing new under the sun. Just prettier graphics (except GW2's models aren't that great IMHO). Making everyone a hybrid with very limited "heal other" capabilities means you go back to the Zerg mentality. Gotta have enough to overwhelm your foes, or it is ineffecient and costly (gotta have people running around rezzing mid fight, etc).
Right, but it doesn't kill the idea off the trinity.....at some point someone is going to have to have aggro....what happens when they reach this point would depend on their preparedness. So this player would now need to A). utilize combat abilities which will allow him to avoid/mitigate/absorb damage while he has aggro (a.k.a. tanking), . somehow remove himself from the range of threat to the mob so he can resume DPSing.
You say lack of dedicated healer, but i've watch several videos of dynamic events where downed players could've been easily revived by another player that dedicated themselves to the role of running around "F"ing other players..... no one did of course, but i'm sure it could've happened.
... if ANYBODY can run around and hit the 'F' key, I fail to see how that's a dedicated healer.
... and there's a huge difference between somebody using an ability to protect themselves, and the concept of a dedicated tank.
Look, the whole idea 'GW2 killed the holy trinity, no more holy trinity' is ridiculous, but you're taking the opposing and equally ridiculous stance that GW2 can be conflated with the holy trinity.
They're two different systems, and yes, there are similarities, but that doesn't make them the same, anymore than basketball and soccer are the same because they both have players, a round ball, passing and the like.
There's also this ridiculous idea (From other people, but not bothering to quote them because they're all over) that once the holy trinity is gone, strategy is gone.
There's no holy trinity in the real world, does that mean the whole real world... all combat, sports and the like are devoid of strategy? I guess so.
Yes, the strategies of the holy trinity are gone, but that's not the ONLY possible source of strategy. To claim that's the way it works is ridiculous, and totally not in line with reality at all.
But the varitey an uniqueness of each class comes from the fact as the battle progresses and changes you need to use your different mechanics to answer the problems.
If the healer dies in WOW, can anyone else fullfil the roles of it? Or if the tank dies? Or if the DPS dudes are wiped can the tank and the healer kill the boss?
In GW2 the party keeps fighting, you have solutions, one or two guys go rez the falling dude, while the others try to use their tools to buy time.
It is like vanilla WOW hybrids - except there is no healing class (at best there are a couple of weak aoe heals or some moderate ones that have long cooldowns) since there is no ally targetting and there is no threath mechanic, meaning at any time a mob may decide to switch targets (look into GW1 if you think that isn't possible).. With no one as the guranteed target and no one capable of fullfiling the healing role, everyone needs to be a hybrid.
Right, but it doesn't kill the idea off the trinity.....at some point someone is going to have to have aggro....what happens when they reach this point would depend on their preparedness. So this player would now need to A). utilize combat abilities which will allow him to avoid/mitigate/absorb damage while he has aggro (a.k.a. tanking), . somehow remove himself from the range of threat to the mob so he can resume DPSing.
You say lack of dedicated healer, but i've watch several videos of dynamic events where downed players could've been easily revived by another player that dedicated themselves to the role of running around "F"ing other players..... no one did of course, but i'm sure it could've happened.
Actually thiefs are very good at reviving.
Again, people aren't claiming there aren't roles - at least I'm not.
I'm claiming you aren't confined to a single role during combat.
I'm claiming I don't need for a paladin to show up, because apriest or a rogue can "tank" just fine.
Because surviving in battles is about managing your dodges, your escapes, your buffs and debuffs and knowing when to retreat.
Now, a good party can maximize the time everyone is fighting, because they can complement each other resources - team play.
In trinity I need to wait for a protection paladin, protection warrior, feral druid or a blood dk.
The tank focus on his particular tanking job, the healer focus on healing the tank and the dps focus on dealing damage,
In GW2 the specific class of each player and their skills matter to me, because then I can complement them and they can complement me.
In trinity the healer doesn't care what the dps are or what the tank is - he plays the same. And it is pretty much the same for the DPS and Tank.
They are playing together but if someone a mage drops and is replaced by a hunter, nothing really changed - not so in GW2.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by azmundai So in GW2, when a Big Ass Monster hits a guy with sheets for armor it does the same amount of damage as it does when it hits a guy with steel for armor? That would be pretty mundane. Im all for variety, but a game which doesnt have fights that need more healing than 1 person can provide for itself sounds pretty boring. Cant wait to try it someday .. but not holding my breath either.
No, but it still hits him for a shitload.
People in big ass armor with large health pools last longer, but not long enough. And they can never insure that they have agro.
Sounds like everyone just dies and rezzes a lot?
Well... it's not quite that simple. You just ahve to get your hands on it.
There is a lot of bob and weaving. Debuffing. Snares (CC in general). All those things can be pretty much used on everything, including the big ass boss monsters. It rewards coordination a lot. You can have your thief keep up 25 stacks of vulnerability and mix in some cripples to help the group. Once the big mean boss turns toward you, someone else should take lead with the cripples so you can simply walk away.
I don't know, it actually turns into a pretty fun experience.
So they've removed the trinity by making everyone a hybrid Tank/Healer or DPS/Healer. Such innovation. The "combat dance" gets old quick too. Do the dance a few times, fun, do it 10000 times, boring. Same as everything else. EQ1 had encounters that required this kind of thing. WoW has this kind of thing. There's nothing new under the sun. Just prettier graphics (except GW2's models aren't that great IMHO). Making everyone a hybrid with very limited "heal other" capabilities means you go back to the Zerg mentality. Gotta have enough to overwhelm your foes, or it is ineffecient and costly (gotta have people running around rezzing mid fight, etc).
How areyou going to overwhelm anyone in a dungeon that limits you to 5 people?
How are you going to overwhelm anyone if the mobs scale with more players - more adds, boss gets more health and skills?
How is it ineffecient and costly, if your armor only takes damage when you are defeated instead of only downed? How is it inefficient and costly if is designed to be scrappy instead of "perfect or fail"?
How can the dance become old if it will change according to the people around you, the skills they and you have and how the battle actually goes?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Right, but it doesn't kill the idea off the trinity.....at some point someone is going to have to have aggro....what happens when they reach this point would depend on their preparedness. So this player would now need to A). utilize combat abilities which will allow him to avoid/mitigate/absorb damage while he has aggro (a.k.a. tanking), . somehow remove himself from the range of threat to the mob so he can resume DPSing.
You say lack of dedicated healer, but i've watch several videos of dynamic events where downed players could've been easily revived by another player that dedicated themselves to the role of running around "F"ing other players..... no one did of course, but i'm sure it could've happened.
... if ANYBODY can run around and hit the 'F' key, I fail to see how that's a dedicated healer.
... and there's a huge difference between somebody using an ability to protect themselves, and the concept of a dedicated tank.
Look, the whole idea 'GW2 killed the holy trinity, no more holy trinity' is ridiculous, but you're taking the opposing and equally ridiculous stance that GW2 can be conflated with the holy trinity.
They're two different systems, and yes, there are similarities, but that doesn't make them the same, anymore than basketball and soccer are the same because they both have players, a round ball, passing and the like.
....Amazes me how people skip past thing they don't wish to read....a person that dedicates themselves to reviving downed players would infact be a dedicated healer.
...If the player is using the abilities to protect himself, and maintain the aggro they gained.....while I wouldn't see that as a dedicated tank....I would say they assumed the role when needed.
I didn't conflate anything....I find it mere obstinance on GW2 players to believe that it somehow ended the idea of the trinity.
Both basketball, and soccer are team sports....so yeah that's about the same.
Right, but it doesn't kill the idea off the trinity.....at some point someone is going to have to have aggro....what happens when they reach this point would depend on their preparedness. So this player would now need to A). utilize combat abilities which will allow him to avoid/mitigate/absorb damage while he has aggro (a.k.a. tanking), . somehow remove himself from the range of threat to the mob so he can resume DPSing.
You say lack of dedicated healer, but i've watch several videos of dynamic events where downed players could've been easily revived by another player that dedicated themselves to the role of running around "F"ing other players..... no one did of course, but i'm sure it could've happened.
... if ANYBODY can run around and hit the 'F' key, I fail to see how that's a dedicated healer.
... and there's a huge difference between somebody using an ability to protect themselves, and the concept of a dedicated tank.
Look, the whole idea 'GW2 killed the holy trinity, no more holy trinity' is ridiculous, but you're taking the opposing and equally ridiculous stance that GW2 can be conflated with the holy trinity.
They're two different systems, and yes, there are similarities, but that doesn't make them the same, anymore than basketball and soccer are the same because they both have players, a round ball, passing and the like.
....Amazes me how people skip past thing they don't wish to read....a person that dedicates themselves to reviving downed players would infact be a dedicated healer.
...If the player is using the abilities to protect himself, and maintain the aggro they gained.....while I wouldn't see that as a dedicated tank....I would say they assumed the role when needed.
I didn't conflate anything....I find it mere obstinance on GW2 players to believe that it somehow ended the idea of the trinity.
Both basketball, and soccer are team sports....so yeah that's about the same.
If the players are getting downed then maybe something else is wrong, no?
Players are expected to ocasionally go down,not all the time. They have tools to avoid that.
And probably a good chunk of the dudes you see down are NPCs and not players.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
When you understand the connection between "dying" and "trying to tank", then you will have taken your first step towards enlightenment.
Yeah especially those tho think they can just fill the roles anyways. Have them try that on a boss or in an explore dungeon in GW2 they'll learn about the 20th time of dying. It amazes me how people can't seem to let go.
Seriously starting to doubt that either of you have actually played GW2, or at best you've never gotten pass level 10.
Over 80 hours so far, currently have a mesmer in the 30s. Ran Ascalon Catacombs with a pug, one shot through thanks to a good group that meshed very well. We tried explorable mode, however, and with only one of us over 35 we wound up hitting a wall at the General dude that pulls you in and rips you a new one. What an absolute blast we had. We also had no healers, no tanks. Everyone contributed across the board. I was swapping between staff and greatsword to good effect... I love the knockback you get with the greatsword, a well timed one in the right place takes a ton of pressure off the group as a whole. Chaos Storm providing boons for allies as well as conditions to the bad guys (plus direct damage) comes into play nicely. Shattering clones to interrupt big attacks (and applying cripples thanks to traiting for it) goes a long way into mitigation of damage not only for you, but your group. The key is to stop looking for a role to fill... you don't do that. Instead learn your skills and when to best apply them.
Eh no. No matter how you look at it, most of the time you will always see a heavy armor char holding a boss's attention and keeping himself alive with selective skills while a good chunk of damage dealers stay afar... Granted pure direct healing might have just faded away but there are parts of it still alive. So yah. Not dead. I hate to bring GW2 as an example but here goes. I found that champion bosses always seemed to attack the heavy armored melee people like guardians who use self heals and traits to increase survivability. Also, classes like elementalists have aoe healing abilities and traits to further increase their effectiveness. So despite anet's claim that the trinity is dead is untrue. It will always exist in some form because it is actually pretty damn effective
Oh gods... flashbacks of those champion level ettins thinking my mesmer looked quite delicious. Fortunately, you can watch combat, see their attacks coming and react accordingly, either by moving/dodging out of the way, interrupting the attack, knocking them back with the greatsword, etc. I can solo them now pretty effectively, and not by tanking... by avoiding being made a paper tank of.
DPS classes in other games have debuffs and control as well. There is nothing ground breaking in this set up. I think what they've done is fairly lazy. They've done away entirely with the role of healer and tank and replaced it all entirely with utility dps. Now, the game may be good in spite of that. The desire for fps mechanics and dps only toons aside, this is just catering to console style gamers whcih is most of the upcoming gneration and may be smart business, what makes an mmo good in my opinion is content. If they have good content the game will succeed, if they don't it will even faster than most mmos because people are going to get tired of dps rvr zergs even quicker than other games.
... it's not easier to do things without a holy trinity.
Holy trinity is one of the easiest designs possible at its very basis. The holy trinity isn't what makes a game design difficult.
Ever noticed how many really really shitty F2P games use the holy trinity system? It's easy. You could program it in BASIC. It was originally designed for use with MUDs.
It's a DIFFERENT game design, not easier. You're acting like they just pulled the trinity out and replaced it with 0 things characters can do, and everybody is just one vague undefined blob. :T
That's sort of how I feel about it. You dps and use some crowd control maybe some debuffs and have to dodge and use a self heal. This isn't even close to innovative. As I've said though, if the content is good this won't matter that much to me, I just get tired of people acting like this game is the literally going to change their lives. And I disagree, there is more skill involved in a trinity group than a dps zerg. DPS has to know how to ditch agro, tank has to hold agro, healer has to heal, and someone has to crowd control and debuff as well(in a good group) They've replaced that with 8 utility dps classes and dodge button, that isn't amazingly innovative to me, that's lazy design.
Now, before you get mad, I am going to buy the game probably at release and give it an honest try, these are just my initial impressions.
That's sort of how I feel about it. You dps and use some crowd control maybe some debuffs and have to dodge and use a self heal. This isn't even close to innovative. As I've said though, if the content is good this won't matter that much to me, I just get tired of people acting like this game is the literally going to change their lives. And I disagree, there is more skill involved in a trinity group than a dps zerg. DPS has to know how to ditch agro, tank has to hold agro, healer has to heal, and someone has to crowd control and debuff as well(in a good group) They've replaced that with 8 utility dps classes and dodge button, that isn't amazingly innovative to me, that's lazy design.
Now, before you get mad, I am going to buy the game probably at release and give it an honest try, these are just my initial impressions.
Every single class plays differently, you know.
... and why would I get mad? I think your impression is mistaken and you're simplifying it to the point of uselessness, just like if I described the holy trinity as 'dps hits things' 'healer heals' 'tank maintains aggro' (Which is what it is at the very basis of it).
I'm not going to get mad at you for having what I believe is the wrong idea. Worst case scenario, I just feel pity that you can't understand what I do. In real life, most everybody in war is 'utility dps', and hey, somehow they managed to have tactics in real life.
Now, it's possible to do a poor job with a GW2 type system, but there's nothing about the design that INHERENTLY makes it poor and dps zerg. Unless you think that's how RL works all the time because of the lack of holy trinity.
In which case I can't really discuss things with you because we're totally seeing everything different and have nothing in common.
That's sort of how I feel about it. You dps and use some crowd control maybe some debuffs and have to dodge and use a self heal. This isn't even close to innovative. As I've said though, if the content is good this won't matter that much to me, I just get tired of people acting like this game is the literally going to change their lives. And I disagree, there is more skill involved in a trinity group than a dps zerg. DPS has to know how to ditch agro, tank has to hold agro, healer has to heal, and someone has to crowd control and debuff as well(in a good group) They've replaced that with 8 utility dps classes and dodge button, that isn't amazingly innovative to me, that's lazy design.
Now, before you get mad, I am going to buy the game probably at release and give it an honest try, these are just my initial impressions.
Every single class plays differently, you know.
... and why would I get mad? I think your impression is mistaken and you're simplifying it to the point of uselessness, just like if I described the holy trinity as 'dps hits things' 'healer heals' 'tank maintains aggro' (Which is what it is at the very basis of it).
I'm not going to get mad at you for having what I believe is the wrong idea. Worst case scenario, I just feel pity that you can't understand what I do. In real life, most everybody in war is 'utility dps', and hey, somehow they managed to have tactics in real life.
Now, it's possible to do a poor job with a GW2 type system, but there's nothing about the design that INHERENTLY makes it poor and dps zerg. Unless you think that's how RL works all the time because of the lack of holy trinity.
In which case I can't really discuss things with you because we're totally seeing everything different and have nothing in common.
This is where we have disconnect, you're comparing real life to a fantasy mmorpg, really? And if we're being realistic, have you ever been in a fight? Who fights by trying to strafe circles around the other guy, hell who fights by running at all? You'd get murdered.
btw, you're entirely wrong, 3/4 of the US military is comprised of support troops(logisitics, artillery, intelligence, medical, transportation, mechanics etc), the vast majority of soldiers are not front line combat troops.
That's sort of how I feel about it. You dps and use some crowd control maybe some debuffs and have to dodge and use a self heal. This isn't even close to innovative. As I've said though, if the content is good this won't matter that much to me, I just get tired of people acting like this game is the literally going to change their lives. And I disagree, there is more skill involved in a trinity group than a dps zerg. DPS has to know how to ditch agro, tank has to hold agro, healer has to heal, and someone has to crowd control and debuff as well(in a good group) They've replaced that with 8 utility dps classes and dodge button, that isn't amazingly innovative to me, that's lazy design.
Now, before you get mad, I am going to buy the game probably at release and give it an honest try, these are just my initial impressions.
Some of us just disagree with you.
For me going back to static combat systems, with well defined rigid roles is not fun at all.
GW2 combat system first feels chaotic. Many times when I saw videos I couldn't make sense of what was going on or kept thinking why don't they dodge.
But as I started playing myself, it starts to make sense and the chaos begins to make sense.
Sure, the DEs with dozens of people still feel zergy, but beta is beta.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
This is where we have disconnect, you're comparing real life to a fantasy mmorpg, really? And if we're being realistic, have you ever been in a fight? Who fights by trying to strafe circles around the other guy, hell who fights by running at all? You'd get murdered.
btw, you're entirely wrong, 3/4 of the US military is comprised of support troops(logisitics, artillery, intelligence, medical, transportation, mechanics etc), the vast majority of soldiers are not front line combat troops.
*smacks forehead* Okay, first of all, I'm just saying that the holy trinity is a completely and wholly artificial construct designed for video games. Combat healing does NOT work that way.
... and I'm not trying to say that 'GW2 = modern military warfare', just saying that your comment about 'dps utility' would hold to a squad, and especially holds true in medieval style combat (I'm a guy with an axe! I'm a guy with a bow! Congratulations. You're both dps utility'). The fact that you managed to draw from my comment that 'gw2 combat = modern military' just shows how useless the concept of reducing things to 'dps utility' is.
... and I meant combat on the small scale, obviously. I misspoke when I said 'in war', though what I was really thinking was in the middle of combat actions, between actual combat units. Even a tank or an airplane can be looked at as 'utility dps'.
Now, theoretically the people giving quests in WoW are your intelligence or whatever, but nobody says it's the 'holy quartet' because you have to take into account quest givers. Or the holy quintent because those people run inns where theoretically your person eats and sleeps at night. :T The holy trinity is talking about small scale, localized combat with relatively small groups.
(Also, if you take a look at my posting history, you'll see I've noted more than once that if you wanted to do an alternative to the holy trinity that'd use just as much interdependent strategy, a team member based off of intelligence and information would be an interesting route to go)
Here's what I'm saying.
Holy trinity = a method of having strategy in a video game.
Holy trinity = not at all like how the real world works.
Utility dps = overly simplified method of referring to things that would work referring to pretty much all smale scale combat throughout history. (Obviously almost all MMO combat is tactics, rather than strategy, and pretty much all your support functions in a military outfit don't really count towards small unit tactics, which is really what MMORPGs is about. No person running for a ditch during combat has ever thought '... but what about the logistics? I should probably call and check to see if rations are flowing in a timely fashion'. ).
GW2 = ALSO not like how the real world works.
Tactics and strategy = Something you can find in all sorts of game systems, from something as deceptively simple looking as Go, something slightly more complex looking like chess.... any sports, any sort of real life combat, the trinity system.... and yes, even in a system like GW2 is using. There's nothing magical about GW2's system that suddenly negates the concept of tactics. You can have tactics and strategy in any well designed system and YES, you can have an incredibly poorly designed trinity system that basically has siht for tactics and strategy. Holy trinity does not assure strategy and tactics, nor does it get rid of it. It's simply one game system out of MANY possible ones.
edit: I think it's important to add that if you want to say 'I think GW2 has done a poor job of having tactics', I wouldn't really argue with you much. That's your opinion. I'd think you're wrong, but hey, it's your opinion, you can't see it, whatever.
What I AM arguing about is the concept that removing the Holy Trinity and replacing it with a new combat system is automatically getting rid of tactics, or that it's lazy.
This is where we have disconnect, you're comparing real life to a fantasy mmorpg, really? And if we're being realistic, have you ever been in a fight? Who fights by trying to strafe circles around the other guy, hell who fights by running at all? You'd get murdered.
btw, you're entirely wrong, 3/4 of the US military is comprised of support troops(logisitics, artillery, intelligence, medical, transportation, mechanics etc), the vast majority of soldiers are not front line combat troops.
*smacks forehead* Okay, first of all, I'm just saying that the holy trinity is a completely and wholly artificial construct designed for video games. Combat healing does NOT work that way.
... and I'm not trying to say that 'GW2 = modern military warfare', just saying that your comment about 'dps utility' would hold to a squad, and especially holds true in medieval style combat (I'm a guy with an axe! I'm a guy with a bow! Congratulations. You're both dps utility'). The fact that you managed to draw from my comment that 'gw2 combat = modern military' just shows how useless the concept of reducing things to 'dps utility' is.
... and I meant combat on the small scale, obviously. I misspoke when I said 'in war', though what I was really thinking was in the middle of combat actions, between actual combat units. Even a tank or an airplane can be looked at as 'utility dps'.
Now, theoretically the people giving quests in WoW are your intelligence or whatever, but nobody says it's the 'holy quartet' because you have to take into account quest givers. Or the holy quintent because those people run inns where theoretically your person eats and sleeps at night. :T The holy trinity is talking about small scale, localized combat with relatively small groups.
(Also, if you take a look at my posting history, you'll see I've noted more than once that if you wanted to do an alternative to the holy trinity that'd use just as much interdependent strategy, a team member based off of intelligence and information would be an interesting route to go)
Here's what I'm saying.
Holy trinity = a method of having strategy in a video game.
Holy trinity = not at all like how the real world works.
Utility dps = overly simplified method of referring to things that would work referring to pretty much all smale scale combat throughout history. (Obviously almost all MMO combat is tactics, rather than strategy, and pretty much all your support functions in a military outfit don't really count towards small unit tactics, which is really what MMORPGs is about. No person running for a ditch during combat has ever thought '... but what about the logistics? I should probably call and check to see if rations are flowing in a timely fashion'. ).
GW2 = ALSO not like how the real world works.
Tactics and strategy = Something you can find in all sorts of game systems, from something as deceptively simple looking as Go, something slightly more complex looking like chess.... any sports, any sort of real life combat, the trinity system.... and yes, even in a system like GW2 is using. There's nothing magical about GW2's system that suddenly negates the concept of tactics. You can have tactics and strategy in any well designed system and YES, you can have an incredibly poorly designed trinity system that basically has siht for tactics and strategy. Holy trinity does not assure strategy and tactics, nor does it get rid of it. It's simply one game system out of MANY possible ones.
You're right, in a medieval battle everyone is dps. That is history, these games are fantasy. I imagine merlin was a bit more than dps. Medussa had some serious crowd control ability. Hercules may have been the greatest tank of all time.
I am not saying that gw2 is going to suck. I am not saying it is going to be good. I just find the worship it receives to be reminiscent of swtor, the last game that was going to revolutionize the genre. I am saying that there are concerns here. I am saying that no matter how you spin it they've repplaced three distinct roles with one role. I am saying so long as the content is good I am ok with that, but make no mistake that is what they've done.
The fans of this game and the haters of TESO are like the websites version of religious fanatics to me. Any critique of their position results in some sort of E-jihad.
Everyone admitting or saying the term "Trinity" (meaning Tank, Healer and DPS) is either a fool/stupid or never played an MMORPG before World of Warcraft.
For anyone who even want to reduce "roles" in MMORPGs even MORE. WoW made them 3 and people want to make them one; I say to you... you folk are too different from me. We both seek too different games. Nothing wrong with that. But I hope you know what you want because I damn sure know what I want.
Comments
So with that said, does not WoW produce the sameness with it's classes i.e Mages providing DPS in the form of elemental damage, Rangers and Rogues providing DPS in the form of physical damage each of these providing soft or hard crowd control at range or within melee.
I don't know, but the games seem quite similar in roles you play, except GW2 seems to give the sembalance of diversity by allowing you "off-trinity" options within your base class.
Actually the trinity is merely the roles (tanking, healer, and dps/support.) that are needed to be filled in a group to progress thru content. Now the classes in trinity systems are largely just a dffering style of doing/fullfilling your role/job in the group. Since both a warrior an paladin tanks go about tanking slightly different (in the case of prior to lk very different.) using or brring different abilities to achieve their excusion of thier role in the group. Yet in many mmos using te trinity system you do not asked for a class (unless that is the best or only class that can heal.), but instead send out a general request for any class that can fill the role needed, which still falls under the trinity is about the roles not the clases.
In many ways you can say that in gw2 they have minimized tanking an healing to making it mandatory for all, and tanking being done thru postioning and evasion which is still tanking. Yet in completing the content it is hwo well you do all three of the roles, evading damage or getting mobs off weakened players, healing damage taken by you, and dpsing the target when possible. In this way both games use a trinity, but the fact is that the focus and functions of two fo the roles have be adjusted quite abit.
Tanking in mainstream trinity is about soak damage as well as keeping the attention of a target/s, while gw2 it is about protecting allies an minimize damage thru evading it. Healing in mainstream trinity is about keeping the other players alive, while in gw2 it is about dealing with damage that is dealt to you when you miss a dodge or get caught. While in both dps s about maximizing your damage, while cc/debuffing targets of interest (that is the job of a dps origanally after the forth part of the original set-up was rolled into it.) hence why dps have a large deal with cc an debuffs.Though it is all in how the roles are filled, what functions are used, and also the focus on the role are placed that is the large dfference, because of the minor focus o the healer an tanking roles it feels like a non-trinity set-up.
DPS classes in other games have debuffs and control as well. There is nothing ground breaking in this set up. I think what they've done is fairly lazy. They've done away entirely with the role of healer and tank and replaced it all entirely with utility dps. Now, the game may be good in spite of that. The desire for fps mechanics and dps only toons aside, this is just catering to console style gamers whcih is most of the upcoming gneration and may be smart business, what makes an mmo good in my opinion is content. If they have good content the game will succeed, if they don't it will even faster than most mmos because people are going to get tired of dps rvr zergs even quicker than other games.
... it's not easier to do things without a holy trinity.
Holy trinity is one of the easiest designs possible at its very basis. The holy trinity isn't what makes a game design difficult.
Ever noticed how many really really shitty F2P games use the holy trinity system? It's easy. You could program it in BASIC. It was originally designed for use with MUDs.
It's a DIFFERENT game design, not easier. You're acting like they just pulled the trinity out and replaced it with 0 things characters can do, and everybody is just one vague undefined blob. :T
But the varitey an uniqueness of each class comes from the fact as the battle progresses and changes you need to use your different mechanics to answer the problems.
If the healer dies in WOW, can anyone else fullfil the roles of it? Or if the tank dies? Or if the DPS dudes are wiped can the tank and the healer kill the boss?
In GW2 the party keeps fighting, you have solutions, one or two guys go rez the falling dude, while the others try to use their tools to buy time.
It is like vanilla WOW hybrids - except there is no healing class (at best there are a couple of weak aoe heals or some moderate ones that have long cooldowns) since there is no ally targetting and there is no threath mechanic, meaning at any time a mob may decide to switch targets (look into GW1 if you think that isn't possible).. With no one as the guranteed target and no one capable of fullfiling the healing role, everyone needs to be a hybrid.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Considering how much time you've spent mentioning you're not interesting in GW2, I somehow find it a lot easier to believe they've played, rather than you.
After all, I've gotten to 35, and I agree with them. Trying the traditional tank role in GW2 is about as effective as hitting the 'logout' button.
Eh no. No matter how you look at it, most of the time you will always see a heavy armor char holding a boss's attention and keeping himself alive with selective skills while a good chunk of damage dealers stay afar... Granted pure direct healing might have just faded away but there are parts of it still alive. So yah. Not dead. I hate to bring GW2 as an example but here goes. I found that champion bosses always seemed to attack the heavy armored melee people like guardians who use self heals and traits to increase survivability. Also, classes like elementalists have aoe healing abilities and traits to further increase their effectiveness. So despite anet's claim that the trinity is dead is untrue. It will always exist in some form because it is actually pretty damn effective
Do you think it is easier to have to fullfil 3 roles instead of 1?
Don't people often compain that players can't get out of the green goo?
Now in GW2 you have to get out of the green goo, need to dodge attacks, need to survive while being attacked, need to manage your health (no one is there to do it for you), need to be battle aware, need to debuff enemies and buff allies.
You think that from a player perspective that is easier?
And from the developer perspecive you don't think it is hard to balance a system where everyone can suddenly be targetted and is expected to survive?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
They aren't targetting the heavy armored characters, they are targetting the closest target - those are basic low level bosses. Even GW1 AI targetted lower armor characters first.
Curiously, people been complaining that melee is too hard because the bosses deal so much damage and so they die easily.
Interesing, isn't it?
Maybe, just maybe they are dying too often because they are trying to tank it and they can't?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Right, but it doesn't kill the idea off the trinity.....at some point someone is going to have to have aggro....what happens when they reach this point would depend on their preparedness. So this player would now need to A). utilize combat abilities which will allow him to avoid/mitigate/absorb damage while he has aggro (a.k.a. tanking),
You say lack of dedicated healer, but i've watch several videos of dynamic events where downed players could've been easily revived by another player that dedicated themselves to the role of running around "F"ing other players..... no one did of course, but i'm sure it could've happened.
So they've removed the trinity by making everyone a hybrid Tank/Healer or DPS/Healer. Such innovation. The "combat dance" gets old quick too. Do the dance a few times, fun, do it 10000 times, boring. Same as everything else. EQ1 had encounters that required this kind of thing. WoW has this kind of thing. There's nothing new under the sun. Just prettier graphics (except GW2's models aren't that great IMHO). Making everyone a hybrid with very limited "heal other" capabilities means you go back to the Zerg mentality. Gotta have enough to overwhelm your foes, or it is ineffecient and costly (gotta have people running around rezzing mid fight, etc).
... if ANYBODY can run around and hit the 'F' key, I fail to see how that's a dedicated healer.
... and there's a huge difference between somebody using an ability to protect themselves, and the concept of a dedicated tank.
Look, the whole idea 'GW2 killed the holy trinity, no more holy trinity' is ridiculous, but you're taking the opposing and equally ridiculous stance that GW2 can be conflated with the holy trinity.
They're two different systems, and yes, there are similarities, but that doesn't make them the same, anymore than basketball and soccer are the same because they both have players, a round ball, passing and the like.
There's also this ridiculous idea (From other people, but not bothering to quote them because they're all over) that once the holy trinity is gone, strategy is gone.
There's no holy trinity in the real world, does that mean the whole real world... all combat, sports and the like are devoid of strategy? I guess so.
Yes, the strategies of the holy trinity are gone, but that's not the ONLY possible source of strategy. To claim that's the way it works is ridiculous, and totally not in line with reality at all.
Actually thiefs are very good at reviving.
Again, people aren't claiming there aren't roles - at least I'm not.
I'm claiming you aren't confined to a single role during combat.
I'm claiming I don't need for a paladin to show up, because apriest or a rogue can "tank" just fine.
Because surviving in battles is about managing your dodges, your escapes, your buffs and debuffs and knowing when to retreat.
Now, a good party can maximize the time everyone is fighting, because they can complement each other resources - team play.
In trinity I need to wait for a protection paladin, protection warrior, feral druid or a blood dk.
The tank focus on his particular tanking job, the healer focus on healing the tank and the dps focus on dealing damage,
In GW2 the specific class of each player and their skills matter to me, because then I can complement them and they can complement me.
In trinity the healer doesn't care what the dps are or what the tank is - he plays the same. And it is pretty much the same for the DPS and Tank.
They are playing together but if someone a mage drops and is replaced by a hunter, nothing really changed - not so in GW2.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
How areyou going to overwhelm anyone in a dungeon that limits you to 5 people?
How are you going to overwhelm anyone if the mobs scale with more players - more adds, boss gets more health and skills?
How is it ineffecient and costly, if your armor only takes damage when you are defeated instead of only downed? How is it inefficient and costly if is designed to be scrappy instead of "perfect or fail"?
How can the dance become old if it will change according to the people around you, the skills they and you have and how the battle actually goes?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
....Amazes me how people skip past thing they don't wish to read....a person that dedicates themselves to reviving downed players would infact be a dedicated healer.
...If the player is using the abilities to protect himself, and maintain the aggro they gained.....while I wouldn't see that as a dedicated tank....I would say they assumed the role when needed.
I didn't conflate anything....I find it mere obstinance on GW2 players to believe that it somehow ended the idea of the trinity.
Both basketball, and soccer are team sports....so yeah that's about the same.
If the players are getting downed then maybe something else is wrong, no?
Players are expected to ocasionally go down,not all the time. They have tools to avoid that.
And probably a good chunk of the dudes you see down are NPCs and not players.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Over 80 hours so far, currently have a mesmer in the 30s. Ran Ascalon Catacombs with a pug, one shot through thanks to a good group that meshed very well. We tried explorable mode, however, and with only one of us over 35 we wound up hitting a wall at the General dude that pulls you in and rips you a new one. What an absolute blast we had. We also had no healers, no tanks. Everyone contributed across the board. I was swapping between staff and greatsword to good effect... I love the knockback you get with the greatsword, a well timed one in the right place takes a ton of pressure off the group as a whole. Chaos Storm providing boons for allies as well as conditions to the bad guys (plus direct damage) comes into play nicely. Shattering clones to interrupt big attacks (and applying cripples thanks to traiting for it) goes a long way into mitigation of damage not only for you, but your group. The key is to stop looking for a role to fill... you don't do that. Instead learn your skills and when to best apply them.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Oh gods... flashbacks of those champion level ettins thinking my mesmer looked quite delicious. Fortunately, you can watch combat, see their attacks coming and react accordingly, either by moving/dodging out of the way, interrupting the attack, knocking them back with the greatsword, etc. I can solo them now pretty effectively, and not by tanking... by avoiding being made a paper tank of.
Oderint, dum metuant.
That's sort of how I feel about it. You dps and use some crowd control maybe some debuffs and have to dodge and use a self heal. This isn't even close to innovative. As I've said though, if the content is good this won't matter that much to me, I just get tired of people acting like this game is the literally going to change their lives. And I disagree, there is more skill involved in a trinity group than a dps zerg. DPS has to know how to ditch agro, tank has to hold agro, healer has to heal, and someone has to crowd control and debuff as well(in a good group) They've replaced that with 8 utility dps classes and dodge button, that isn't amazingly innovative to me, that's lazy design.
Now, before you get mad, I am going to buy the game probably at release and give it an honest try, these are just my initial impressions.
Every single class plays differently, you know.
... and why would I get mad? I think your impression is mistaken and you're simplifying it to the point of uselessness, just like if I described the holy trinity as 'dps hits things' 'healer heals' 'tank maintains aggro' (Which is what it is at the very basis of it).
I'm not going to get mad at you for having what I believe is the wrong idea. Worst case scenario, I just feel pity that you can't understand what I do. In real life, most everybody in war is 'utility dps', and hey, somehow they managed to have tactics in real life.
Now, it's possible to do a poor job with a GW2 type system, but there's nothing about the design that INHERENTLY makes it poor and dps zerg. Unless you think that's how RL works all the time because of the lack of holy trinity.
In which case I can't really discuss things with you because we're totally seeing everything different and have nothing in common.
This is where we have disconnect, you're comparing real life to a fantasy mmorpg, really? And if we're being realistic, have you ever been in a fight? Who fights by trying to strafe circles around the other guy, hell who fights by running at all? You'd get murdered.
btw, you're entirely wrong, 3/4 of the US military is comprised of support troops(logisitics, artillery, intelligence, medical, transportation, mechanics etc), the vast majority of soldiers are not front line combat troops.
Some of us just disagree with you.
For me going back to static combat systems, with well defined rigid roles is not fun at all.
GW2 combat system first feels chaotic. Many times when I saw videos I couldn't make sense of what was going on or kept thinking why don't they dodge.
But as I started playing myself, it starts to make sense and the chaos begins to make sense.
Sure, the DEs with dozens of people still feel zergy, but beta is beta.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
*smacks forehead* Okay, first of all, I'm just saying that the holy trinity is a completely and wholly artificial construct designed for video games. Combat healing does NOT work that way.
... and I'm not trying to say that 'GW2 = modern military warfare', just saying that your comment about 'dps utility' would hold to a squad, and especially holds true in medieval style combat (I'm a guy with an axe! I'm a guy with a bow! Congratulations. You're both dps utility'). The fact that you managed to draw from my comment that 'gw2 combat = modern military' just shows how useless the concept of reducing things to 'dps utility' is.
... and I meant combat on the small scale, obviously. I misspoke when I said 'in war', though what I was really thinking was in the middle of combat actions, between actual combat units. Even a tank or an airplane can be looked at as 'utility dps'.
Now, theoretically the people giving quests in WoW are your intelligence or whatever, but nobody says it's the 'holy quartet' because you have to take into account quest givers. Or the holy quintent because those people run inns where theoretically your person eats and sleeps at night. :T The holy trinity is talking about small scale, localized combat with relatively small groups.
(Also, if you take a look at my posting history, you'll see I've noted more than once that if you wanted to do an alternative to the holy trinity that'd use just as much interdependent strategy, a team member based off of intelligence and information would be an interesting route to go)
Here's what I'm saying.
Holy trinity = a method of having strategy in a video game.
Holy trinity = not at all like how the real world works.
Utility dps = overly simplified method of referring to things that would work referring to pretty much all smale scale combat throughout history. (Obviously almost all MMO combat is tactics, rather than strategy, and pretty much all your support functions in a military outfit don't really count towards small unit tactics, which is really what MMORPGs is about. No person running for a ditch during combat has ever thought '... but what about the logistics? I should probably call and check to see if rations are flowing in a timely fashion'. ).
GW2 = ALSO not like how the real world works.
Tactics and strategy = Something you can find in all sorts of game systems, from something as deceptively simple looking as Go, something slightly more complex looking like chess.... any sports, any sort of real life combat, the trinity system.... and yes, even in a system like GW2 is using. There's nothing magical about GW2's system that suddenly negates the concept of tactics. You can have tactics and strategy in any well designed system and YES, you can have an incredibly poorly designed trinity system that basically has siht for tactics and strategy. Holy trinity does not assure strategy and tactics, nor does it get rid of it. It's simply one game system out of MANY possible ones.
edit: I think it's important to add that if you want to say 'I think GW2 has done a poor job of having tactics', I wouldn't really argue with you much. That's your opinion. I'd think you're wrong, but hey, it's your opinion, you can't see it, whatever.
What I AM arguing about is the concept that removing the Holy Trinity and replacing it with a new combat system is automatically getting rid of tactics, or that it's lazy.
You're right, in a medieval battle everyone is dps. That is history, these games are fantasy. I imagine merlin was a bit more than dps. Medussa had some serious crowd control ability. Hercules may have been the greatest tank of all time.
I am not saying that gw2 is going to suck. I am not saying it is going to be good. I just find the worship it receives to be reminiscent of swtor, the last game that was going to revolutionize the genre. I am saying that there are concerns here. I am saying that no matter how you spin it they've repplaced three distinct roles with one role. I am saying so long as the content is good I am ok with that, but make no mistake that is what they've done.
The fans of this game and the haters of TESO are like the websites version of religious fanatics to me. Any critique of their position results in some sort of E-jihad.
Everyone admitting or saying the term "Trinity" (meaning Tank, Healer and DPS) is either a fool/stupid or never played an MMORPG before World of Warcraft.
For anyone who even want to reduce "roles" in MMORPGs even MORE. WoW made them 3 and people want to make them one; I say to you... you folk are too different from me. We both seek too different games. Nothing wrong with that. But I hope you know what you want because I damn sure know what I want.