It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
From a game design '50 km above ground' level point of view, this post doesn't really make sense.
Unless they changed from the last beta, GW2 doesn't get 'rid' of the trinity model. It gives every class all 3 roles and lets the player decide which one they want at a certain time.
A warrior picking up a rifle to turn into a 'range dps' still means a player is a 'dps'.
Trinity is not a 'design flaw'. That's like saying bicycles are a design flaw cause we have cars now.
It is an old model that gets modification (depending on the game) but at its core, it is a sound design.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
From a game design '50 km above ground' level point of view, this post doesn't really make sense.
Unless they changed from the last beta, GW2 doesn't get 'rid' of the trinity model. It gives every class all 3 roles and lets the player decide which one they want at a certain time.
A warrior picking up a rifle to turn into a 'range dps' still means a player is a 'dps'.
Trinity is not a 'design flaw'. That's like saying bicycles are a design flaw cause we have cars now.
It is an old model that gets modification (depending on the game) but at its core, it is a sound design.
Incorrect, still. You don't decide which role to play at a given time. You have skills that have one or more damage, control or support aspects associated with them, and you use the right skills as needed. Let's look at your warrior with a rifle as an example:
As you can see, not a pure dps character. You're applying damage, yes, but there's also a fair share of control as well with cripples and knockbacks. You can add vulnerability, which is something you'd want to do before, say, unleashing a kill shot. Combines with utility skills, traits, etc. you can actually wind up with an extremely balanced character that buffs allies, controls enemies and brings the pain, all on a single build and used when best needed.
It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
From a game design '50 km above ground' level point of view, this post doesn't really make sense.
Unless they changed from the last beta, GW2 doesn't get 'rid' of the trinity model. It gives every class all 3 roles and lets the player decide which one they want at a certain time.
A warrior picking up a rifle to turn into a 'range dps' still means a player is a 'dps'.
Trinity is not a 'design flaw'. That's like saying bicycles are a design flaw cause we have cars now.
It is an old model that gets modification (depending on the game) but at its core, it is a sound design.
Here we go.
Can you, in the middle of a fight, turn your healer into a dps for the next 5 seconds, then turn into a healer for the next 6 seconds and then be a tank for the next 10 seconds?
If you can, why the hell do people search for healers, dps and tanks?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Incorrect, still. You don't decide which role to play at a given time. You have skills that have one or more damage, control or support aspects associated with them, and you use the right skills as needed. Let's look at your warrior with a rifle as an example:
As you can see, not a pure dps character. You're applying damage, yes, but there's also a fair share of control as well with cripples and knockbacks. You can add vulnerability, which is something you'd want to do before, say, unleashing a kill shot. Combines with utility skills, traits, etc. you can actually wind up with an extremely balanced character that buffs allies, controls enemies and brings the pain, all on a single build and used when best needed.
And that doesn't even include the utility skills and heal skill or the dodge (basically a "tanking" skill).
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Myself and many others never saw this coming. But the trinity that we loved is finally showing its age. And I think it may be bound to obsolescence.
Example: Once upon a time there was a game called Pong and we (at least those of us who remember B&W TV’s) all loved it. It showed us a way to entertain ourselves other than what we already had and the industry told us we need more of. Well we moved on and found better forms of entertainment usually offered as something new and different. We the consumer, then decided what we need more of and Pong went by the wayside.
No one is saying Pong is dead, but only that its model of entertainment is obsolete and the mainstream have moved on with their wallets to a better model.
After many cycles of the “in” thing all models eventually run their course and we as consumers find the next model to entertain us.
In the world of MMO’s the current and dated model of the trinity has not only reached its zenith but is currently on the decline.
So the question is what will the next model look like? I do not know for sure but I feel the wheels of change turning.
As I am not a prophet, I can’t speak on things about the future. But from the reading and research I have done, one can deduce a few things. The next “BIG” MMO will somehow abolish the limited parameters of the trinity and the constraints placed on gamers using this form of entertainment. And this new model, in some form, will be the next sensation that future MMO’s will be modeled after.
Understanding that with each “new” model, they build of the old and only make it better.
Just my thoughts. Let me know what you think.
So basically what you are telling us is that 'things will change in some unspecified way'. Ok.
It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
From a game design '50 km above ground' level point of view, this post doesn't really make sense.
Unless they changed from the last beta, GW2 doesn't get 'rid' of the trinity model. It gives every class all 3 roles and lets the player decide which one they want at a certain time.
A warrior picking up a rifle to turn into a 'range dps' still means a player is a 'dps'.
Trinity is not a 'design flaw'. That's like saying bicycles are a design flaw cause we have cars now.
It is an old model that gets modification (depending on the game) but at its core, it is a sound design.
Incorrect, still. You don't decide which role to play at a given time. You have skills that have one or more damage, control or support aspects associated with them, and you use the right skills as needed. Let's look at your warrior with a rifle as an example:
As you can see, not a pure dps character. You're applying damage, yes, but there's also a fair share of control as well with cripples and knockbacks. You can add vulnerability, which is something you'd want to do before, say, unleashing a kill shot. Combines with utility skills, traits, etc. you can actually wind up with an extremely balanced character that buffs allies, controls enemies and brings the pain, all on a single build and used when best needed.
There are plenty of games were DPS have control skills, wow you GW2 guys are disillusioning yourselves to believe you aren't going to need someone to soak damage or maintain aggro, whilst everyone else wails away at the mobs......
Oh yeah, and the idea of no dedicated healer......either the mobs are paper easy, or you are going to be potion spamming.....equally ridiculous....might as well play diablo.
Incorrect, still. You don't decide which role to play at a given time. You have skills that have one or more damage, control or support aspects associated with them, and you use the right skills as needed. Let's look at your warrior with a rifle as an example:
As you can see, not a pure dps character. You're applying damage, yes, but there's also a fair share of control as well with cripples and knockbacks. You can add vulnerability, which is something you'd want to do before, say, unleashing a kill shot. Combines with utility skills, traits, etc. you can actually wind up with an extremely balanced character that buffs allies, controls enemies and brings the pain, all on a single build and used when best needed.
There are plenty of games were DPS have control skills, wow you GW2 guys are disillusioning yourselves to believe you aren't going to need someone to soak damage or maintain aggro, whilst everyone else wails away at the mobs......
Oh yeah, and the idea of no dedicated healer......either the mobs are paper easy, or you are going to be potion spamming.....equally ridiculous....might as well play diablo.
Ah, you're new here. Welcome to GW2 insights. A few things... no, you cannot, no matter who you are, sit there and soak damage for more than a few seconds at best. The whole "I'll sponge, you heal me" concept has been eradicated entirely. Instead, you avoid damage, mitigate damage, keep the enemy from even being able to do damage, etc. You also can't claim aggro. There are no taunt mechanics at all, and the aggro mechanics vary from mob to mob. Some will choose the weakest (lowest health), some based on armor, proximity, etc. That being that, no the mobs are not paper easy... pretty much any mob there, especially outside the starter area, can and will gleefully kill you if you screw up. This ties in with the d/c/s aspects all being available simultaneously... you need to do what you can to avoid damage while delivering it yourself. You have your own self-heal, on a cooldown, if you fail to avoid/mitigate as well as you need to, but in and of itself it's not enough to keep you going. And, lastly, there are no potions.
In GW2 everyone is the healer. Because the way it works is someone tanks then dies then everyone heals them. Yea yea yea skill and dodging will alliviate some of it, but not nearly as much as people like to make out. as far as i'm concerened gw2 still has the trinity it's just really funky.
In GW2 everyone is the healer. Because the way it works is someone tanks then dies then everyone heals them. Yea yea yea skill and dodging will alliviate some of it, but not nearly as much as people like to make out. as far as i'm concerened gw2 still has the trinity it's just really funky.
When you understand the connection between "dying" and "trying to tank", then you will have taken your first step towards enlightenment.
It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
From a game design '50 km above ground' level point of view, this post doesn't really make sense.
Unless they changed from the last beta, GW2 doesn't get 'rid' of the trinity model. It gives every class all 3 roles and lets the player decide which one they want at a certain time.
A warrior picking up a rifle to turn into a 'range dps' still means a player is a 'dps'.
Trinity is not a 'design flaw'. That's like saying bicycles are a design flaw cause we have cars now.
It is an old model that gets modification (depending on the game) but at its core, it is a sound design.
That's okay, spend five minutes trying to tank an elite or trying to heal a player who has no CC abilities loaded that's trying to tank an elite, better yet try this in an exploration dungeon. You'll see it's dead and so will the toons who are trying to tank only and heal only. That's what we mean by the traditional roles are dead. Just because they still use the "damage" role doesn't mean the damage role can't heal a little or cc a little depending on the situation. Thus the switching of weapons and spell foci.
Oh it is a design flaw, because countless game designers have had to get around the lack of healers and tanks in their game that was designed to require them for YEARS. It's what spawned things like the dungeon finder, the talent tree switching and the ability of a class to fill all three roles when switching between them since this text was missed above, i decided to repeat it.
In GW2 everyone is the healer. Because the way it works is someone tanks then dies then everyone heals them. Yea yea yea skill and dodging will alliviate some of it, but not nearly as much as people like to make out. as far as i'm concerened gw2 still has the trinity it's just really funky.
Exactly, It's worded as if a player can't aquire aggro for any reason, only the mob's AI selects targets based on how they want.....well I'm sure once people learn how a mob selects it's targets...they will specifically plan out a way to exploit that which will in turn either tank or avoid being a primary target inwhich one can dps to hell.
The trinity is a base mechanic in order to be efficient as possible, no one is going to play ineffectively for too long, I'm sure everyone will embrace the idea for a short while, but eventually they will revert to what is most efficient.
In GW2 everyone is the healer. Because the way it works is someone tanks then dies then everyone heals them. Yea yea yea skill and dodging will alliviate some of it, but not nearly as much as people like to make out. as far as i'm concerened gw2 still has the trinity it's just really funky.
When you understand the connection between "dying" and "trying to tank", then you will have taken your first step towards enlightenment.
Yeah especially those tho think they can just fill the roles anyways. Have them try that on a boss or in an explore dungeon in GW2 they'll learn about the 20th time of dying. It amazes me how people can't seem to let go.
There are plenty of games were DPS have control skills, wow you GW2 guys are disillusioning yourselves to believe you aren't going to need someone to soak damage or maintain aggro, whilst everyone else wails away at the mobs......
Oh yeah, and the idea of no dedicated healer......either the mobs are paper easy, or you are going to be potion spamming.....equally ridiculous....might as well play diablo.
There is no potion spamming - there is a self heal with a cooldown.
No, the mobs are hard and challenging - obviously the more you progress the harder they become, dodging and crowd controlling you.
No, there is no aggro mechanic - different mobs have different targetting priorities, basic mobs generally go after the closest person though.
It works like this, you are a though warrior and I'm a squishy necromancer (not exactly squishy, just in armor terms) - we both start wacking at the foe, you use tour dodges to escape some hits, you use your heal, maybe some crowd control and conditions/boons, At the same time I'm casting conditions and dealing damage. Then your health starts to drop and you have no more dodges and your heal isn't recharged, you run, I slow down the foe and get near him, so he starts waching at me.
Now it is my turn to use my dodges, heals and defensive skills. Meanwhile, the warrior recovered his health and his dodges regenerated, his cooldowns are ready. I start to take too much damage, time to run and let you take the damage.
Now do this with 5 people or more - it is a dance, you jump between roles accordingly to what is needed - it is every player responsibility to mind their own health, but is everyone responsability to realize when it is their turn to do certain role.
If the warrior is low on health and tries to escape, it is my responsability to have my cripple/slow/knock/immobilize or my swiftness/aegis buffs to cast on the enemy or ally, allowing the warrior o successfully escape.
It is a puzzle in both trinity and no-trinity - the difference is that with trinity, the tank has all the tanking tools, the healer has all the healing tools and the dps have all the damaging tools, in GW2 the tools are all spread out, so you need to know when to use them.
Tanking and aggro is replaced by wasting the mobs time/damage, healing is replaced by self heals and damage mitigation/damage prevention, damage is not only straight damage but also boons and conditions tha allow to do more damage.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
There are plenty of games were DPS have control skills, wow you GW2 guys are disillusioning yourselves to believe you aren't going to need someone to soak damage or maintain aggro, whilst everyone else wails away at the mobs......
Oh yeah, and the idea of no dedicated healer......either the mobs are paper easy, or you are going to be potion spamming.....equally ridiculous....might as well play diablo.
There is no potion spamming - there is a self heal with a cooldown.
No, the mobs are hard and challenging - obviously the more you progress the harder they become, dodging and crowd controlling you.
No, there is no aggro mechanic - different mobs have different targetting priorities, basic mobs generally go after the closest person though.
It works like this, you are a though warrior and I'm a squishy necromancer (not exactly squishy, just in armor terms) - we both start wacking at the foe, you use tour dodges to escape some hits, you use your heal, maybe some crowd control and conditions/boons, At the same time I'm casting conditions and dealing damage. Then your health starts to drop and you have no more dodges and your heal isn't recharged, you run, I slow down the foe and get near him, so he starts waching at me.
Now it is my turn to use my dodges, heals and defensive skills. Meanwhile, the warrior recovered his health and his dodges regenerated, his cooldowns are ready. I start to take too much damage, time to run and let you take the damage.
Now do this with 5 people or more - it is a dance, you jump between roles accordingly to what is needed - it is every player responsibility to mind their own health, but is everyone responsability to realize when it is their turn to do certain role.
If the warrior is low on health and tries to escape, it is my responsability to have my cripple/slow/knock/immobilize or my swiftness/aegis buffs to cast on the enemy or ally, allowing the warrior o successfully escape.
It is a puzzle in both trinity and no-trinity - the difference is that with trinity, the tank has all the tanking tools, the healer has all the healing tools and the dps have all the damaging tools, in GW2 the tools are all spread out, so you need to know when to use them.
Tanking and aggro is replaced by wasting the mobs time/damage, healing is replaced by self heals and damage mitigation/damage prevention, damage is not only straight damage but also boons and conditions tha allow to do more damage.
Yep, see this I understood from the start....they've done away with the class aspect, but not the roles of damage/control/healing.....the only thing you've pointed out is that it requires a more active aspect of the players involve, but not an absence of the roles needed to play.
In GW2 everyone is the healer. Because the way it works is someone tanks then dies then everyone heals them. Yea yea yea skill and dodging will alliviate some of it, but not nearly as much as people like to make out. as far as i'm concerened gw2 still has the trinity it's just really funky.
Exactly, It's worded as if a player can't aquire aggro for any reason, only the mob's AI selects targets based on how they want.....well I'm sure once people learn how a mob selects it's targets...they will specifically plan out a way to exploit that which will in turn either tank or avoid being a primary target inwhich one can dps to hell.
The trinity is a base mechanic in order to be efficient as possible, no one is going to play ineffectively for too long, I'm sure everyone will embrace the idea for a short while, but eventually they will revert to what is most efficient.
Each mob will have their sets of priorities and there is no aggro grabbing skills to overrule it.
Additonally, it doesn't matter if you can aggro the mob if you going to die in 5 seconds and the mob takes longer than that to kill.
Tell how could you tank in world of Warcraft if there was no targetted heals, there was no aggro grabbing skills and the sturdiest of the classes could only take 3 hits while the squishier od the classes could only sustain 2 hits?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Yep, see this I understood from the start....they've done away with the class aspect, but not the roles of damage/control/healing.....the only thing you've pointed out is that it requires a more active aspect of the players involve, but not an absence of the roles needed to play.
They've actually really de-emphasized healing and made it more a subset of support in general.
As opposed to your standard holy trinity setup where healing is the MOST important part of being a healer, a well placed blind (monster misses next hit) or aegis (Character blocks all damage from next hit) is just as important, if not more so.
People need to DO things, of course. People doing things doesn't make it a holy trinity game though. Nor does it mean that classes have clearly defined roles, or that min-maxing a certain role (I'm going to focus as much as I can on support!) is neccessarily going to be the optimal path.
It's a very soft trinity consisting of support/damage/control, which really isn't the same as a tank/damage/healing trinity, and isn't nearly as hard (You are a healer, you heal. You are a tank, you tank) as you would usually see.
There are plenty of games were DPS have control skills, wow you GW2 guys are disillusioning yourselves to believe you aren't going to need someone to soak damage or maintain aggro, whilst everyone else wails away at the mobs......
Oh yeah, and the idea of no dedicated healer......either the mobs are paper easy, or you are going to be potion spamming.....equally ridiculous....might as well play diablo.
There is no potion spamming - there is a self heal with a cooldown.
No, the mobs are hard and challenging - obviously the more you progress the harder they become, dodging and crowd controlling you.
No, there is no aggro mechanic - different mobs have different targetting priorities, basic mobs generally go after the closest person though.
It works like this, you are a though warrior and I'm a squishy necromancer (not exactly squishy, just in armor terms) - we both start wacking at the foe, you use tour dodges to escape some hits, you use your heal, maybe some crowd control and conditions/boons, At the same time I'm casting conditions and dealing damage. Then your health starts to drop and you have no more dodges and your heal isn't recharged, you run, I slow down the foe and get near him, so he starts waching at me.
Now it is my turn to use my dodges, heals and defensive skills. Meanwhile, the warrior recovered his health and his dodges regenerated, his cooldowns are ready. I start to take too much damage, time to run and let you take the damage.
Now do this with 5 people or more - it is a dance, you jump between roles accordingly to what is needed - it is every player responsibility to mind their own health, but is everyone responsability to realize when it is their turn to do certain role.
If the warrior is low on health and tries to escape, it is my responsability to have my cripple/slow/knock/immobilize or my swiftness/aegis buffs to cast on the enemy or ally, allowing the warrior o successfully escape.
It is a puzzle in both trinity and no-trinity - the difference is that with trinity, the tank has all the tanking tools, the healer has all the healing tools and the dps have all the damaging tools, in GW2 the tools are all spread out, so you need to know when to use them.
Tanking and aggro is replaced by wasting the mobs time/damage, healing is replaced by self heals and damage mitigation/damage prevention, damage is not only straight damage but also boons and conditions tha allow to do more damage.
Yep, see this I understood from the start....they've done away with the class aspect, but not the roles of damage/control/healing.....the only thing you've pointed out is that it requires a more active aspect of the players involve, but not an absence of the roles needed to play.
Yes.
There is no holy trinity. Holy trinity is a tanking class, a healer class, a dps class.
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
So what GW2 kills is the Class A (or spec A) = DPS, Class B (or spec = Healer, Class C (or spec C) = Tank system.
And that is the holy trinity.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Yep, see this I understood from the start....they've done away with the class aspect, but not the roles of damage/control/healing.....the only thing you've pointed out is that it requires a more active aspect of the players involve, but not an absence of the roles needed to play.
They've actually really de-emphasized healing and made it more a subset of support in general.
As opposed to your standard holy trinity setup where healing is the MOST important part of being a healer, a well placed blind (monster misses next hit) or aegis (Character blocks all damage from next hit) is just as important, if not more so.
People need to DO things, of course. People doing things doesn't make it a holy trinity game though.
It's a very soft trinity consisting of support/damage/control, which really isn't the same as a tank/damage/healing trinity, and isn't nearly as hard (You are a healer, you heal. You are a tank, you tank) as you would usually see.
That's as how I seen it as well, overall the game looks wonderful, but I needed a dose of reality when people start claiming "the end of all" speak...
There are plenty of games were DPS have control skills, wow you GW2 guys are disillusioning yourselves to believe you aren't going to need someone to soak damage or maintain aggro, whilst everyone else wails away at the mobs......
Oh yeah, and the idea of no dedicated healer......either the mobs are paper easy, or you are going to be potion spamming.....equally ridiculous....might as well play diablo.
There is no potion spamming - there is a self heal with a cooldown.
No, the mobs are hard and challenging - obviously the more you progress the harder they become, dodging and crowd controlling you.
No, there is no aggro mechanic - different mobs have different targetting priorities, basic mobs generally go after the closest person though.
It works like this, you are a though warrior and I'm a squishy necromancer (not exactly squishy, just in armor terms) - we both start wacking at the foe, you use tour dodges to escape some hits, you use your heal, maybe some crowd control and conditions/boons, At the same time I'm casting conditions and dealing damage. Then your health starts to drop and you have no more dodges and your heal isn't recharged, you run, I slow down the foe and get near him, so he starts waching at me.
Now it is my turn to use my dodges, heals and defensive skills. Meanwhile, the warrior recovered his health and his dodges regenerated, his cooldowns are ready. I start to take too much damage, time to run and let you take the damage.
Now do this with 5 people or more - it is a dance, you jump between roles accordingly to what is needed - it is every player responsibility to mind their own health, but is everyone responsability to realize when it is their turn to do certain role.
If the warrior is low on health and tries to escape, it is my responsability to have my cripple/slow/knock/immobilize or my swiftness/aegis buffs to cast on the enemy or ally, allowing the warrior o successfully escape.
It is a puzzle in both trinity and no-trinity - the difference is that with trinity, the tank has all the tanking tools, the healer has all the healing tools and the dps have all the damaging tools, in GW2 the tools are all spread out, so you need to know when to use them.
Tanking and aggro is replaced by wasting the mobs time/damage, healing is replaced by self heals and damage mitigation/damage prevention, damage is not only straight damage but also boons and conditions tha allow to do more damage.
Yep, see this I understood from the start....they've done away with the class aspect, but not the roles of damage/control/healing.....the only thing you've pointed out is that it requires a more active aspect of the players involve, but not an absence of the roles needed to play.
Yes.
There is no holy trinity. Holy trinity is a tanking class, a healer class, a dps class.
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
Explain...why does GW2 have classes then?
Explain to me why WoW, a game with holy trinity has a Mage Class, a Warlock Class, a thief Class and a Ranger Class?
They are all DPS, right?
That means they play exactly the same, right?
Shouldn't WOW just remove all those classes and makea single DPS class?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
Explain...why does GW2 have classes then?
Explain to me why WoW, a game with holy trinity has a Mage Class, a Warlock Class, a thief Class and a Ranger Class?
They are all DPS, right?
That means they play exactly the same, right?
Shouldn't WOW just remove all those classes and makea single DPS class?
Answer my question to the best of your ability, and i'll answer yours to the best of mine...it's only polite since I asked mines first.
I never thought the holy trinity of gaming was a major issue. I think people love the tank, healer dps role and I think players still love the idea of knowing their role so they can be good at it. Being a jack of all trades you aren't good at anything except being average.
When you understand the connection between "dying" and "trying to tank", then you will have taken your first step towards enlightenment.
Yeah especially those tho think they can just fill the roles anyways. Have them try that on a boss or in an explore dungeon in GW2 they'll learn about the 20th time of dying. It amazes me how people can't seem to let go.
Seriously starting to doubt that either of you have actually played GW2, or at best you've never gotten pass level 10.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
Explain...why does GW2 have classes then?
Explain to me why WoW, a game with holy trinity has a Mage Class, a Warlock Class, a thief Class and a Ranger Class?
They are all DPS, right?
That means they play exactly the same, right?
Shouldn't WOW just remove all those classes and makea single DPS class?
Answer my question to the best of your ability, and i'll answer yours to the best of mine...it's only polite since I asked mines first.
It is simple they play differently and have differen't approaches on how to fullfil their roles in combat.
Just like WoW Mage plays different to a Warlock despite their role is to deal damage.
Likewise an Engineer is a class that will fullfil its roles using an assortment of technological gadgets and potions, a Warrior will fullfil its role using a diversity of weapons and battle tatics, a guardian will focus on holy magic to complement its weapons and protect its allies, an elementalist will use the power of elements to rain fire on enemies or blind them with dirt, a thief will use shadowstep and invisibility, a necromancer will use the power of death magic and curses, a mesmer will create clones and illusions and use chaos, etc.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Comments
From a game design '50 km above ground' level point of view, this post doesn't really make sense.
Unless they changed from the last beta, GW2 doesn't get 'rid' of the trinity model. It gives every class all 3 roles and lets the player decide which one they want at a certain time.
A warrior picking up a rifle to turn into a 'range dps' still means a player is a 'dps'.
Trinity is not a 'design flaw'. That's like saying bicycles are a design flaw cause we have cars now.
It is an old model that gets modification (depending on the game) but at its core, it is a sound design.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Incorrect, still. You don't decide which role to play at a given time. You have skills that have one or more damage, control or support aspects associated with them, and you use the right skills as needed. Let's look at your warrior with a rifle as an example:
Oderint, dum metuant.
Here we go.
Can you, in the middle of a fight, turn your healer into a dps for the next 5 seconds, then turn into a healer for the next 6 seconds and then be a tank for the next 10 seconds?
If you can, why the hell do people search for healers, dps and tanks?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
And that doesn't even include the utility skills and heal skill or the dodge (basically a "tanking" skill).
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
So basically what you are telling us is that 'things will change in some unspecified way'. Ok.
There are plenty of games were DPS have control skills, wow you GW2 guys are disillusioning yourselves to believe you aren't going to need someone to soak damage or maintain aggro, whilst everyone else wails away at the mobs......
Oh yeah, and the idea of no dedicated healer......either the mobs are paper easy, or you are going to be potion spamming.....equally ridiculous....might as well play diablo.
Ah, you're new here. Welcome to GW2 insights. A few things... no, you cannot, no matter who you are, sit there and soak damage for more than a few seconds at best. The whole "I'll sponge, you heal me" concept has been eradicated entirely. Instead, you avoid damage, mitigate damage, keep the enemy from even being able to do damage, etc. You also can't claim aggro. There are no taunt mechanics at all, and the aggro mechanics vary from mob to mob. Some will choose the weakest (lowest health), some based on armor, proximity, etc. That being that, no the mobs are not paper easy... pretty much any mob there, especially outside the starter area, can and will gleefully kill you if you screw up. This ties in with the d/c/s aspects all being available simultaneously... you need to do what you can to avoid damage while delivering it yourself. You have your own self-heal, on a cooldown, if you fail to avoid/mitigate as well as you need to, but in and of itself it's not enough to keep you going. And, lastly, there are no potions.
Oderint, dum metuant.
In GW2 everyone is the healer. Because the way it works is someone tanks then dies then everyone heals them. Yea yea yea skill and dodging will alliviate some of it, but not nearly as much as people like to make out. as far as i'm concerened gw2 still has the trinity it's just really funky.
When you understand the connection between "dying" and "trying to tank", then you will have taken your first step towards enlightenment.
Oderint, dum metuant.
That's okay, spend five minutes trying to tank an elite or trying to heal a player who has no CC abilities loaded that's trying to tank an elite, better yet try this in an exploration dungeon. You'll see it's dead and so will the toons who are trying to tank only and heal only. That's what we mean by the traditional roles are dead. Just because they still use the "damage" role doesn't mean the damage role can't heal a little or cc a little depending on the situation. Thus the switching of weapons and spell foci.
Oh it is a design flaw, because countless game designers have had to get around the lack of healers and tanks in their game that was designed to require them for YEARS. It's what spawned things like the dungeon finder, the talent tree switching and the ability of a class to fill all three roles when switching between them since this text was missed above, i decided to repeat it.
Exactly, It's worded as if a player can't aquire aggro for any reason, only the mob's AI selects targets based on how they want.....well I'm sure once people learn how a mob selects it's targets...they will specifically plan out a way to exploit that which will in turn either tank or avoid being a primary target inwhich one can dps to hell.
The trinity is a base mechanic in order to be efficient as possible, no one is going to play ineffectively for too long, I'm sure everyone will embrace the idea for a short while, but eventually they will revert to what is most efficient.
Yeah especially those tho think they can just fill the roles anyways. Have them try that on a boss or in an explore dungeon in GW2 they'll learn about the 20th time of dying. It amazes me how people can't seem to let go.
There is no potion spamming - there is a self heal with a cooldown.
No, the mobs are hard and challenging - obviously the more you progress the harder they become, dodging and crowd controlling you.
No, there is no aggro mechanic - different mobs have different targetting priorities, basic mobs generally go after the closest person though.
It works like this, you are a though warrior and I'm a squishy necromancer (not exactly squishy, just in armor terms) - we both start wacking at the foe, you use tour dodges to escape some hits, you use your heal, maybe some crowd control and conditions/boons, At the same time I'm casting conditions and dealing damage. Then your health starts to drop and you have no more dodges and your heal isn't recharged, you run, I slow down the foe and get near him, so he starts waching at me.
Now it is my turn to use my dodges, heals and defensive skills. Meanwhile, the warrior recovered his health and his dodges regenerated, his cooldowns are ready. I start to take too much damage, time to run and let you take the damage.
Now do this with 5 people or more - it is a dance, you jump between roles accordingly to what is needed - it is every player responsibility to mind their own health, but is everyone responsability to realize when it is their turn to do certain role.
If the warrior is low on health and tries to escape, it is my responsability to have my cripple/slow/knock/immobilize or my swiftness/aegis buffs to cast on the enemy or ally, allowing the warrior o successfully escape.
It is a puzzle in both trinity and no-trinity - the difference is that with trinity, the tank has all the tanking tools, the healer has all the healing tools and the dps have all the damaging tools, in GW2 the tools are all spread out, so you need to know when to use them.
Tanking and aggro is replaced by wasting the mobs time/damage, healing is replaced by self heals and damage mitigation/damage prevention, damage is not only straight damage but also boons and conditions tha allow to do more damage.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Yep, see this I understood from the start....they've done away with the class aspect, but not the roles of damage/control/healing.....the only thing you've pointed out is that it requires a more active aspect of the players involve, but not an absence of the roles needed to play.
Each mob will have their sets of priorities and there is no aggro grabbing skills to overrule it.
Additonally, it doesn't matter if you can aggro the mob if you going to die in 5 seconds and the mob takes longer than that to kill.
Tell how could you tank in world of Warcraft if there was no targetted heals, there was no aggro grabbing skills and the sturdiest of the classes could only take 3 hits while the squishier od the classes could only sustain 2 hits?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
They've actually really de-emphasized healing and made it more a subset of support in general.
As opposed to your standard holy trinity setup where healing is the MOST important part of being a healer, a well placed blind (monster misses next hit) or aegis (Character blocks all damage from next hit) is just as important, if not more so.
People need to DO things, of course. People doing things doesn't make it a holy trinity game though. Nor does it mean that classes have clearly defined roles, or that min-maxing a certain role (I'm going to focus as much as I can on support!) is neccessarily going to be the optimal path.
It's a very soft trinity consisting of support/damage/control, which really isn't the same as a tank/damage/healing trinity, and isn't nearly as hard (You are a healer, you heal. You are a tank, you tank) as you would usually see.
Yes.
There is no holy trinity. Holy trinity is a tanking class, a healer class, a dps class.
Holy trinity isn't healing, damage, damage absorption/prevention.
No one said there isn't roles, what some have been saying is that classes have to perform all the roles during a combat situation and not a single role.
So what GW2 kills is the Class A (or spec A) = DPS, Class B (or spec
= Healer, Class C (or spec C) = Tank system.
And that is the holy trinity.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
That's as how I seen it as well, overall the game looks wonderful, but I needed a dose of reality when people start claiming "the end of all" speak...
Explain...why does GW2 have classes then?
Explain to me why WoW, a game with holy trinity has a Mage Class, a Warlock Class, a thief Class and a Ranger Class?
They are all DPS, right?
That means they play exactly the same, right?
Shouldn't WOW just remove all those classes and makea single DPS class?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Answer my question to the best of your ability, and i'll answer yours to the best of mine...it's only polite since I asked mines first.
I never thought the holy trinity of gaming was a major issue. I think people love the tank, healer dps role and I think players still love the idea of knowing their role so they can be good at it. Being a jack of all trades you aren't good at anything except being average.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Seriously starting to doubt that either of you have actually played GW2, or at best you've never gotten pass level 10.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
It is simple they play differently and have differen't approaches on how to fullfil their roles in combat.
Just like WoW Mage plays different to a Warlock despite their role is to deal damage.
Likewise an Engineer is a class that will fullfil its roles using an assortment of technological gadgets and potions, a Warrior will fullfil its role using a diversity of weapons and battle tatics, a guardian will focus on holy magic to complement its weapons and protect its allies, an elementalist will use the power of elements to rain fire on enemies or blind them with dirt, a thief will use shadowstep and invisibility, a necromancer will use the power of death magic and curses, a mesmer will create clones and illusions and use chaos, etc.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Well, first of all, the holy trinity isn't going to die, it's a popular (Though in my opinion somewhat overused) mechanic.
... but I will agree that Guild Wars 2 doesn't use a holy trinity style setup. It's definitely different in a lot of ways.