Seriously, removing elements from a game doesn't always work and it definitely doesn't work on everything. I'd really wait for the system to see how it performs in the depth of time. A few beta weekends that catter to the dpsers amoung the community and you'd abandon a system that's been working (and it's fun) for at least a decade? I'd need more than a honeymoon blinded fanboy's experience over an extermely limited period of time with a game to form any kind of serious argument.
Seriously, removing elements from a game doesn't always work and it definitely doesn't work on everything. I'd really wait for the system to see how it performs in the depth of time. A few beta weekends that catter to the dpsers amoung the community and you'd abandon a system that's been working (and it's fun) for at least a decade? I'd need more than a honeymoon blinded fanboy's experience over an extermely limited period of time with a game to form any kind of serious argument.
For the Trinity to be dead, doesn't there need to be a game that doesn't utilize the Trinity? Let me know when you find one. And if you say GW2, I'm just going to laugh at you.
The vast majority of games do not utilize the trinity. And, yes, that includes GW2.
This is the most idiotic thing I've ever read.
I can't even think of one MMO that doesn't use the Trinity.
Also, on topic, the Trinity is not dying. It's still largely more popular than the none trinity.
More than half the western MMO genre still uses it, most of which comes from one game (WoW) the next largest games also use it (Lotro, Aion, Rift etc.) Where do people get the idea that its dying from?
Just because newer games might not have it, doesn't mean its dying, it's dying when the majority of games don't use it.
So to you the only games in existence are MMOs right?
Seriously dude think before posting, hes clearly saying that the majority of GAMES dont use the trinity.
You looked more idiotic than him by far with your post.
Oh right, because I thought we were on a MMO website, talking about MMO's, not single player and co-op games too.
Oh silly me.
(sarcasm off.)
If he meant all games in general then he should have made it clear, but this topic is on MMO's, not other genres.
If he was refering to MMOs he would have use the word "MMOs". As for the trinity in MMOs: do MMOFPS and MMORTS often use them as well?
To add to that. I personally miss roles in older games such as enchanters in everquest. This seems to be an aspect games have removed and it saddens me. Truly the most unselfish support class. Less survivability then the healers but they can make your party do some amazing things. No i never really played an enchanter in games. I do remember the amazing things they could do though when i played EQOA.
yeah i miss that too
eq enchanter , oh those were the times , Mezzing arround
eqoa enchanter ! every1 loved breeze and hell charming the gargantula (the HUGE spider outside freeport) was 1 thing i will never forget , same as charming pixie or drakes
+ race change! i loved that , faction changed included , roaming around as "another" race w/o being killed on sight lol
Tbh I like the trinity. I dunno why people hate it. The trinite gives you a defined role - and in a modern development even with a lot of diversity, see Rift. Only the Trinity really assures that people actually cooperate in a team and players are not atomized jack of all trades who can do everything a bit but nothing really good. I always enjoyed having a clearly defined role, especially because it makes replay with another class interesting. I have not see a single convincing MMO that really did away with the Trinity, maybe except GW2, but we gonna see that, and I still wished GW2 would be a *bit* more traditional, just speaking of personal preferrence here.
Only the trinity allowed really special classes to shine, specializations we do not have today in the solocentric allrounders we have today.
LONG LIVE THE HOLY TRINITY!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Yeah, the analogy was examined a little too closely imo.
I'll be a little more black and white.
In that the rules of baseball have only changed at a relative snail's pace, and is still beloved for over 100 years; the trinity, when utilized effectively can be fun for generations.
I think that actually, the sports analogy sort of holds in an important way.
MMORPGs are mostly 'baseball' (A very specific rule set), but they don't HAVE to be.
... they can be constructed a lot of different ways. ... and being soccer or basketball or whatever doesn't mean a game suddenly has less strategy, or that it's no longer a sport. It's just a different sport, with different strategies and methods of teamwork.
People have gotten SO used to the Holy trinity that they can't seem to imagine teamwork without it. Which is weird, because we've had non-Holy trinity teamwork throughout the vast majority of human experience (Including all sports). Suddenly some MMORPG people can't imagine things any other way.
I think holy trinity gameplay has its place, but that place shouldn't be 'All future MMORPGs ever designed because it's the only way to have teamwork'
I can certainly imagine something other than the trinity creating interdependence. I encourage it and look forward to it. I just don't think we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. I thought EQ was fun, I thought VG was fun, I thought WoW was fun, I thought Rift was fun, I thought WAR's combat system was fun. They were all trinity games, they all had a slightly different take on the trinity. I still want to see innovation with the trinity as well.
This market is now big enough to have multiple games with multiple styles - but I'd hate to roundly reject any form of the trinity. It can be fun when done right
-after all, the trinity is what made most of us love mmo combat in the first place.
I really really want to make a thread on this trinity topic I been seeing around here lately. But I will hold off for now. I still believe many of you Trinity haters are missing the big picture and unable to connect the dots. but please go on.
GW2 doesnt use the standard trinity, but realisitically, how long will the PvE in that game hold the masses before massive population drops?
I predict that GW2's Events and Instanced PvE wont hold people's interest for long, and this effect will cross over into the WvW feature, which is the main seller atm.
but I digress. the trinity haters are missing the big picture.
everyone thinks they are prophet's these days, "I predict...", you think everybody is gonna come running back to you " omg you were so right, i'll never play a game without you're approval again!"
I really really want to make a thread on this trinity topic I been seeing around here lately. But I will hold off for now. I still believe many of you Trinity haters are missing the big picture and unable to connect the dots. but please go on.
GW2 doesnt use the standard trinity, but realisitically, how long will the PvE in that game hold the masses before massive population drops?
I predict that GW2's Events and Instanced PvE wont hold people's interest for long, and this effect will cross over into the WvW feature, which is the main seller atm.
but I digress. the trinity haters are missing the big picture.
everyone thinks they are prophet's these days, "I predict...", you think everybody is gonna come running back to you " omg you were so right, i'll never play a game without you're approval again!"
Well, Mr. other side of the coin:
The counter-argument is (in fact it's the title) 'the trinity is dead'. Isn't this a prediction? Isn't this whole thread the same thing: "everyone is gonna play GW2 and no one will ever be playing the trinity again?"
Do you think people without a beef against the trinity will come running back to you, "omg you are so right, I'll never play a trinity game again!"
I really really want to make a thread on this trinity topic I been seeing around here lately. But I will hold off for now. I still believe many of you Trinity haters are missing the big picture and unable to connect the dots. but please go on.
GW2 doesnt use the standard trinity, but realisitically, how long will the PvE in that game hold the masses before massive population drops?
I predict that GW2's Events and Instanced PvE wont hold people's interest for long, and this effect will cross over into the WvW feature, which is the main seller atm.
but I digress. the trinity haters are missing the big picture.
everyone thinks they are prophet's these days, "I predict...", you think everybody is gonna come running back to you " omg you were so right, i'll never play a game without you're approval again!"
Well, Mr. other side of the coin:
The counter-argument is (in fact it's the title) 'the trinity is dead'. Isn't this a prediction? Isn't this whole thread the same thing: "everyone is gonna play GW2 and no one will ever be playing the trinity again?"
Do you think people without a beef against the trinity will come running back to you, "omg you are so right, I'll never play a trinity game again!"
Well....look who's calling the kettle black.
it was a general statement and wasn't meant to single out one person, i chose to quote the 2nd prophet in the thread, so yes i agree with you on the thread title
<p>One thing is certain, players wii decide which model or models they prefer.</p><p>The trinity model works, but it isn't like there are many quality MMORPG alternatives using non-trinity models.</p><p>I, for one, am all ready for a new model. From limited play in BWE of GW2 I enjoyed the combat system - chaotic at first but as get more knowledge of your class and the game, the chaos start to make sense.</p><p>Are there enough players willing to change? Will there be enough players that prefer trinity once quality alternatives start to appear?</p><p>I have no certainty but I think the answer will be yes for both questions.</p>
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
From playing WoW and many other games over the years, the holy trinity can become limiting to fun and gameplay, but GW2 isn't the answer to this problem.
In GW2 most fights end up feeling like an uncoordinated zerg, with very little strategic elements, as some other posters described it basically loses too much strategy and gains reactionary DPS and rez your friends spam.
The better model, or the model I hope is further expanded upon is what TSW is doing, removing strict class selections, or similar to the Druid from WoW. Allow the player to pick their class/gameplay rather then pigeonhole them with "Cleric" or "Priest".
Even in GW2 if I pick Guardian, my spells are inherently defensive purposed and very little ranged or highly offensive spells are present, I'm personally tired of this, If is sink 100000 hours into a character then I want the capability to play the game however I want to play without making 10 alts.
This further shows that Pen and Paper DND had better diversity of gameplay over nearly all video games, games are still catching up to that level.
BTW theirs a reason Paladin and Druids are the most played classes in WoW, diversity of playstyle allows you to play whatever you feel like at any given time. All pures in WoW have been on the lowside for years.
Originally posted by Volkon GW2 doesn't use the trinity.
GW2 does not use the trinity. No character plays a specific role. You can shift the balance of your character to be a little heavier in control, or support, or damage, but you simply can't be only one. It's all skill dependant.
Sounds to me like they are just redefining and reshuffling "roles".
control, support, damage
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
IMO the lack of trinity is GW2's greatest weakness and probably the reason I'll only play it for a month before being completely bored with it.
You say trinity is dead. I say every person who enjoy's gameplay other then dps just lost what they deem to be the fun part of mmo's.
Whats fun in an mmo IMO is being able to do anything without having to worry about finding a tank or healer. GW2 is the most fun I have had in an mmo in the last 7years and that is coming from someone that only plays as a tank.
Myself and many others never saw this coming. But the trinity that we loved is finally showing its age. And I think it may be bound to obsolescence.
Example: Once upon a time there was a game called Pong and we (at least those of us who remember B&W TV’s) all loved it. It showed us a way to entertain ourselves other than what we already had and the industry told us we need more of. Well we moved on and found better forms of entertainment usually offered as something new and different. We the consumer, then decided what we need more of and Pong went by the wayside.
No one is saying Pong is dead, but only that its model of entertainment is obsolete and the mainstream have moved on with their wallets to a better model.
After many cycles of the “in” thing all models eventually run their course and we as consumers find the next model to entertain us.
In the world of MMO’s the current and dated model of the trinity has not only reached its zenith but is currently on the decline.
So the question is what will the next model look like? I do not know for sure but I feel the wheels of change turning.
As I am not a prophet, I can’t speak on things about the future. But from the reading and research I have done, one can deduce a few things. The next “BIG” MMO will somehow abolish the limited parameters of the trinity and the constraints placed on gamers using this form of entertainment. And this new model, in some form, will be the next sensation that future MMO’s will be modeled after.
Understanding that with each “new” model, they build of the old and only make it better.
Just my thoughts. Let me know what you think.
Yeah, I mean a game with pseudo fps mechanics, 8 utility dps classes, and designed more like a console game is such an improvement. People will get tired of this faster than they did the trinity. Essentially it is lazy development, you've replaced 3 distinct play styles with one.
Ridding ourselves of the trinity is a good thing, gets players more involved. I think GW2 will definitly get people thinking about thier roles in a much different way, and be thankfull they are not stuck with a "one trick pony" like to many other MMOs.
Not that every MMO will be like GW2, so there will be something for everyone.
Myself and many others never saw this coming. But the trinity that we loved is finally showing its age. And I think it may be bound to obsolescence.
Example: Once upon a time there was a game called Pong and we (at least those of us who remember B&W TV’s) all loved it. It showed us a way to entertain ourselves other than what we already had and the industry told us we need more of. Well we moved on and found better forms of entertainment usually offered as something new and different. We the consumer, then decided what we need more of and Pong went by the wayside.
No one is saying Pong is dead, but only that its model of entertainment is obsolete and the mainstream have moved on with their wallets to a better model.
After many cycles of the “in” thing all models eventually run their course and we as consumers find the next model to entertain us.
In the world of MMO’s the current and dated model of the trinity has not only reached its zenith but is currently on the decline.
So the question is what will the next model look like? I do not know for sure but I feel the wheels of change turning.
As I am not a prophet, I can’t speak on things about the future. But from the reading and research I have done, one can deduce a few things. The next “BIG” MMO will somehow abolish the limited parameters of the trinity and the constraints placed on gamers using this form of entertainment. And this new model, in some form, will be the next sensation that future MMO’s will be modeled after.
Understanding that with each “new” model, they build of the old and only make it better.
Just my thoughts. Let me know what you think.
Some games will come out without the trinity, just like there have always been new/different games, but the concept of team-based gameplay where each player brings specific strengths/weaknesses to the group is not something which will ever disappear from the landscape entirely.
So it feels rather baseless to claim the trinity is "dead" or even on the decline.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Actually the biggest difference between GW2 and trinity games is its emphasis on what Anet calls support and control. Their main thesis is that this is incredibly powerful and your tactical use of these things as a team should be the determiner of success not whether one dude taunts enough or one dude can out put X heals.
You can have a Mesmer use Moa on the Elementalist in Catacombs while your team then focus fires on the elementalist. Just this fairly simple strategy is enough to make an encounter that will wipe yout team in seconds not nearly so bad.
Yet the Mesmer is not the CC class. It is one of the classes that can CC. Nor will any class that can CC be able to CC the way that an enchanter in EQ could or a Controller in City of Heroes can. You as a team determine what capabilities you take and you as a team determine how they will executed.
In Trinity games your are forced into your strategy by the design of the game. You will have your enchanter CC, you will have you tank control where a mob runs to.
In GW2 you don't want a mob doing certain things you use controls. ie. you don't want that elementaltist to blast your entire group into smithereens. What people don't realize vs other MMOs is that some mobs in GW2 MUST be controlled they do too much damage not to.
Similarly support is very powerful you don't wnat the ranger to fuck you up horribly the answer is not "heal through it" or "get the tank to grab aggro on all them". You use one of the support abilities to deflect or reflect projectile while you spike one of them down then maybe make a tactical retreat.
Originally posted by Volkon GW2 doesn't use the trinity.
GW2 does not use the trinity. No character plays a specific role. You can shift the balance of your character to be a little heavier in control, or support, or damage, but you simply can't be only one. It's all skill dependant.
Sounds to me like they are just redefining and reshuffling "roles".
control, support, damage
You are correct that they pretty much just shuffled teh roles around. No dedicated aggro holder, no dedicated healer. Now EVERYONE is responsible for killing teh mosnter, and everyone must work together to use buffs/debuffs/CC to succeed.
No more "The tank stands there and spams a threat rotation, the DPS stand a distance away and spawm their rotation, and the healer plays whack-a-mole with health bars".
Some games will come out without the trinity, just like there have always been new/different games, but the concept of team-based gameplay where each player brings specific strengths/weaknesses to the group is not something which will ever disappear from the landscape entirely.
So it feels rather baseless to claim the trinity is "dead" or even on the decline.
I think this nails it. As others have pointed out, the "Trinity" is simply a WoW-clone thing - at various times in EQ's life you also needed a mezzer or slower in addition to a tank and healer. What would that be, the Holy Quartet?
Unless your classes are completely identical, certain combinations are going to have better syngery than others. Players will discover and exploit these synergies, and then BOOM you have Required Classes.
Case in point: In the original EQ, Clerics had a spell called Complete Heal, which would heal someone to full health - but it took 10 seconds to cast. From the designer's perspective, this would mainly be an efficient downtime healing spell, since it took too long to cast in combat.
We all know what happened right? Players realized that if you had a bunch of people cast Complete Heal 2 seconds apart, the tank would be healed to full every 2 seconds. The Complete Heal Chain was born, and it defined raid combat for the next half-decade (until WoW, ironically).
Whenever I see a game say it won't have required classes, or required builds, I shake my head. Required classes/builds are never something the designers add on purpose...it's the result of millions of people min-maxing a system. It's one of the reasons something like GearScore is so polarizing, and it will never go away.
Some games will come out without the trinity, just like there have always been new/different games, but the concept of team-based gameplay where each player brings specific strengths/weaknesses to the group is not something which will ever disappear from the landscape entirely.
So it feels rather baseless to claim the trinity is "dead" or even on the decline.
I think this nails it. As others have pointed out, the "Trinity" is simply a WoW-clone thing - at various times in EQ's life you also needed a mezzer or slower in addition to a tank and healer. What would that be, the Holy Quartet?
Unless your classes are completely identical, certain combinations are going to have better syngery than others. Players will discover and exploit these synergies, and then BOOM you have Required Classes.
Case in point: In the original EQ, Clerics had a spell called Complete Heal, which would heal someone to full health - but it took 10 seconds to cast. From the designer's perspective, this would mainly be an efficient downtime healing spell, since it took too long to cast in combat.
We all know what happened right? Players realized that if you had a bunch of people cast Complete Heal 2 seconds apart, the tank would be healed to full every 2 seconds. The Complete Heal Chain was born, and it defined raid combat for the next half-decade (until WoW, ironically).
Whenever I see a game say it won't have required classes, or required builds, I shake my head. Required classes/builds are never something the designers add on purpose...it's the result of millions of people min-maxing a system. It's one of the reasons something like GearScore is so polarizing, and it will never go away.
Yeah, the problem is less the game, than it is people's mindsets. However, GW2 seems to allow for some flexibility in this, as nearly every class has nearly every ability to some extent.
Another example is City of Heroes. You don't need dedicated healers for ANYTHING. ANY kind of defender is a game changer, but oft times challenges can be beaten even without them. Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes, and sometimes properly equipped defenders and blasters can tank certain elements. Both CoX and GW2 do something that Blizzard has often quoted as a goal but NEVER made work: "Bring the player, not the class".
Yeah, the problem is less the game, than it is people's mindsets. However, GW2 seems to allow for some flexibility in this, as nearly every class has nearly every ability to some extent.
Another example is City of Heroes. You don't need dedicated healers for ANYTHING. ANY kind of defender is a game changer, but oft times challenges can be beaten even without them. Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes, and sometimes properly equipped defenders and blasters can tank certain elements. Both CoX and GW2 do something that Blizzard has often quoted as a goal but NEVER made work: "Bring the player, not the class".
Hopefully that trend will continue.
Let's not pretend that just because CoX was a little looser with class comp that it didn't matter. As someone who frequently pieced together parties, it totally mattered. It's just that now when your party has a tank and some DPS you could alternatively look for a controller OR a healer OR a defender, rather than just a healer.
You were still bringing the class in that game, it was just a little more loose with who you were forced to bring.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Whenever I see a game say it won't have required classes, or required builds, I shake my head. Required classes/builds are never something the designers add on purpose...it's the result of millions of people min-maxing a system. It's one of the reasons something like GearScore is so polarizing, and it will never go away.
'That isn't true.
Certainly games have been designed with certain classes being required for A or B.
Can you not bring a tank or a healer in a game as WoW to do a dungeon/raid (that you don't out level/out gear)?
There are other aspects in GW2 that contribute for profession flexibility such as weapon swapping and environmental weapons.
You need knocks to fight "The lovers". In most games that would mean certain classes with access to knocks were required - in GW2 it just means someone needs to go pick up one of the rocks scattered around so you can knock them.
Or there is boss A that is really good vs meelee or boss b that is really good vs ranged attacks - in some games that would mean certain classes wouldn't be taken for those encounters. In GW2 it just means the warrior equip a rifle or the ranger equips a greatsword.
In the end is up to the developers to keep it up - if chain heal allows something not desired, changing it to "out of combat only" would solve it.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by Volkon GW2 doesn't use the trinity.
GW2 does not use the trinity. No character plays a specific role. You can shift the balance of your character to be a little heavier in control, or support, or damage, but you simply can't be only one. It's all skill dependant.
Sounds to me like they are just redefining and reshuffling "roles".
control, support, damage
It only sounds like that because you're not listening. They've done more than remove the roles of the trinity... they've taken the actual roles away from the players and applied the d/c/s aspects to the skills you bring. That's more significant than people realize. You can't spec yourself as a "control" guy. There's always a blend involved, even if you try to do so. You'll always have skills with damage and supporting aspects to them as well. The very skills attached to the weapons makes sure of that. That's the biggest mental hurdle people need to make... realizing that the tank/heal/dps roles are gone in GW2 and the different aspects are now a part of your weapons and skills, not a part of the character's definition. It makes better sense once that sinks in.
It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
I just like how trinity stopped being a tank that takes all the damage, a healer that heals all the damage the tank takes and a (or a few) dps that need to kill the mobs/bosses before the mobs/bosses overpower the healer ability to heal damage and the tank ability to sutain damage and became any damage dealt, any heal done, any damage sustained.
Holy trinity is, with a few exceptions (with 0 being trivial, 6 being non-trivial and 10 being unmatched):
Healer:
Damage ....... 0/10 to 3/10
Healing..... 10/10
Ability to sustain damage... 0/10 to 3/10
DPS:
Damage ....... 10/10
Healing..... 0/10 to 3/10
Ability to sustain damage... 0/10 to 3/10
Tank
Damage.... 0/10 to 3/10
Healing... 0/10 to 3/10
Ability to sustain damage... 10/10
Incoming games "character":
Damage.... 6/10 to 8/10
Support/Crowd Control.... 6/10 to 8/10
Ability to waste mob damage.... 6/10 to 8/10
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Comments
The healers are dead!
This is the era of the rezzers!!!
Seriously, removing elements from a game doesn't always work and it definitely doesn't work on everything. I'd really wait for the system to see how it performs in the depth of time. A few beta weekends that catter to the dpsers amoung the community and you'd abandon a system that's been working (and it's fun) for at least a decade? I'd need more than a honeymoon blinded fanboy's experience over an extermely limited period of time with a game to form any kind of serious argument.
Wise words, couldnt agree more!
If he was refering to MMOs he would have use the word "MMOs". As for the trinity in MMOs: do MMOFPS and MMORTS often use them as well?
yeah i miss that too
eq enchanter , oh those were the times
, Mezzing arround
eqoa enchanter ! every1 loved breeze
and hell charming the gargantula (the HUGE spider outside freeport) was 1 thing i will never forget , same as charming pixie or drakes 
+ race change! i loved that
, faction changed included , roaming around as "another" race w/o being killed on sight lol
eq2 coercer.....<---- inst the same
, !$$"$ SOE
Tbh I like the trinity. I dunno why people hate it. The trinite gives you a defined role - and in a modern development even with a lot of diversity, see Rift. Only the Trinity really assures that people actually cooperate in a team and players are not atomized jack of all trades who can do everything a bit but nothing really good. I always enjoyed having a clearly defined role, especially because it makes replay with another class interesting. I have not see a single convincing MMO that really did away with the Trinity, maybe except GW2, but we gonna see that, and I still wished GW2 would be a *bit* more traditional, just speaking of personal preferrence here.
Only the trinity allowed really special classes to shine, specializations we do not have today in the solocentric allrounders we have today.
LONG LIVE THE HOLY TRINITY!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I can certainly imagine something other than the trinity creating interdependence. I encourage it and look forward to it. I just don't think we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. I thought EQ was fun, I thought VG was fun, I thought WoW was fun, I thought Rift was fun, I thought WAR's combat system was fun. They were all trinity games, they all had a slightly different take on the trinity. I still want to see innovation with the trinity as well.
This market is now big enough to have multiple games with multiple styles - but I'd hate to roundly reject any form of the trinity. It can be fun when done right
-after all, the trinity is what made most of us love mmo combat in the first place.
everyone thinks they are prophet's these days, "I predict...", you think everybody is gonna come running back to you " omg you were so right, i'll never play a game without you're approval again!"
Well, Mr. other side of the coin:
The counter-argument is (in fact it's the title) 'the trinity is dead'. Isn't this a prediction? Isn't this whole thread the same thing: "everyone is gonna play GW2 and no one will ever be playing the trinity again?"
Do you think people without a beef against the trinity will come running back to you, "omg you are so right, I'll never play a trinity game again!"
Well....look who's calling the kettle black.
it was a general statement and wasn't meant to single out one person, i chose to quote the 2nd prophet in the thread, so yes i agree with you on the thread title
<p>One thing is certain, players wii decide which model or models they prefer.</p><p>The trinity model works, but it isn't like there are many quality MMORPG alternatives using non-trinity models.</p><p>I, for one, am all ready for a new model. From limited play in BWE of GW2 I enjoyed the combat system - chaotic at first but as get more knowledge of your class and the game, the chaos start to make sense.</p><p>Are there enough players willing to change? Will there be enough players that prefer trinity once quality alternatives start to appear?</p><p>I have no certainty but I think the answer will be yes for both questions.</p>
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
From playing WoW and many other games over the years, the holy trinity can become limiting to fun and gameplay, but GW2 isn't the answer to this problem.
In GW2 most fights end up feeling like an uncoordinated zerg, with very little strategic elements, as some other posters described it basically loses too much strategy and gains reactionary DPS and rez your friends spam.
The better model, or the model I hope is further expanded upon is what TSW is doing, removing strict class selections, or similar to the Druid from WoW. Allow the player to pick their class/gameplay rather then pigeonhole them with "Cleric" or "Priest".
Even in GW2 if I pick Guardian, my spells are inherently defensive purposed and very little ranged or highly offensive spells are present, I'm personally tired of this, If is sink 100000 hours into a character then I want the capability to play the game however I want to play without making 10 alts.
This further shows that Pen and Paper DND had better diversity of gameplay over nearly all video games, games are still catching up to that level.
BTW theirs a reason Paladin and Druids are the most played classes in WoW, diversity of playstyle allows you to play whatever you feel like at any given time. All pures in WoW have been on the lowside for years.
Sounds to me like they are just redefining and reshuffling "roles".
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Whats fun in an mmo IMO is being able to do anything without having to worry about finding a tank or healer. GW2 is the most fun I have had in an mmo in the last 7years and that is coming from someone that only plays as a tank.
Yeah, I mean a game with pseudo fps mechanics, 8 utility dps classes, and designed more like a console game is such an improvement. People will get tired of this faster than they did the trinity. Essentially it is lazy development, you've replaced 3 distinct play styles with one.
Ridding ourselves of the trinity is a good thing, gets players more involved. I think GW2 will definitly get people thinking about thier roles in a much different way, and be thankfull they are not stuck with a "one trick pony" like to many other MMOs.
Not that every MMO will be like GW2, so there will be something for everyone.
Some games will come out without the trinity, just like there have always been new/different games, but the concept of team-based gameplay where each player brings specific strengths/weaknesses to the group is not something which will ever disappear from the landscape entirely.
So it feels rather baseless to claim the trinity is "dead" or even on the decline.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Actually the biggest difference between GW2 and trinity games is its emphasis on what Anet calls support and control. Their main thesis is that this is incredibly powerful and your tactical use of these things as a team should be the determiner of success not whether one dude taunts enough or one dude can out put X heals.
You can have a Mesmer use Moa on the Elementalist in Catacombs while your team then focus fires on the elementalist. Just this fairly simple strategy is enough to make an encounter that will wipe yout team in seconds not nearly so bad.
Yet the Mesmer is not the CC class. It is one of the classes that can CC. Nor will any class that can CC be able to CC the way that an enchanter in EQ could or a Controller in City of Heroes can. You as a team determine what capabilities you take and you as a team determine how they will executed.
In Trinity games your are forced into your strategy by the design of the game. You will have your enchanter CC, you will have you tank control where a mob runs to.
In GW2 you don't want a mob doing certain things you use controls. ie. you don't want that elementaltist to blast your entire group into smithereens. What people don't realize vs other MMOs is that some mobs in GW2 MUST be controlled they do too much damage not to.
Similarly support is very powerful you don't wnat the ranger to fuck you up horribly the answer is not "heal through it" or "get the tank to grab aggro on all them". You use one of the support abilities to deflect or reflect projectile while you spike one of them down then maybe make a tactical retreat.
You are correct that they pretty much just shuffled teh roles around. No dedicated aggro holder, no dedicated healer. Now EVERYONE is responsible for killing teh mosnter, and everyone must work together to use buffs/debuffs/CC to succeed.
No more "The tank stands there and spams a threat rotation, the DPS stand a distance away and spawm their rotation, and the healer plays whack-a-mole with health bars".
I think this nails it. As others have pointed out, the "Trinity" is simply a WoW-clone thing - at various times in EQ's life you also needed a mezzer or slower in addition to a tank and healer. What would that be, the Holy Quartet?
Unless your classes are completely identical, certain combinations are going to have better syngery than others. Players will discover and exploit these synergies, and then BOOM you have Required Classes.
Case in point: In the original EQ, Clerics had a spell called Complete Heal, which would heal someone to full health - but it took 10 seconds to cast. From the designer's perspective, this would mainly be an efficient downtime healing spell, since it took too long to cast in combat.
We all know what happened right? Players realized that if you had a bunch of people cast Complete Heal 2 seconds apart, the tank would be healed to full every 2 seconds. The Complete Heal Chain was born, and it defined raid combat for the next half-decade (until WoW, ironically).
Whenever I see a game say it won't have required classes, or required builds, I shake my head. Required classes/builds are never something the designers add on purpose...it's the result of millions of people min-maxing a system. It's one of the reasons something like GearScore is so polarizing, and it will never go away.
Yeah, the problem is less the game, than it is people's mindsets. However, GW2 seems to allow for some flexibility in this, as nearly every class has nearly every ability to some extent.
Another example is City of Heroes. You don't need dedicated healers for ANYTHING. ANY kind of defender is a game changer, but oft times challenges can be beaten even without them. Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes, and sometimes properly equipped defenders and blasters can tank certain elements. Both CoX and GW2 do something that Blizzard has often quoted as a goal but NEVER made work: "Bring the player, not the class".
Hopefully that trend will continue.
Let's not pretend that just because CoX was a little looser with class comp that it didn't matter. As someone who frequently pieced together parties, it totally mattered. It's just that now when your party has a tank and some DPS you could alternatively look for a controller OR a healer OR a defender, rather than just a healer.
You were still bringing the class in that game, it was just a little more loose with who you were forced to bring.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
'That isn't true.
Certainly games have been designed with certain classes being required for A or B.
Can you not bring a tank or a healer in a game as WoW to do a dungeon/raid (that you don't out level/out gear)?
There are other aspects in GW2 that contribute for profession flexibility such as weapon swapping and environmental weapons.
You need knocks to fight "The lovers". In most games that would mean certain classes with access to knocks were required - in GW2 it just means someone needs to go pick up one of the rocks scattered around so you can knock them.
Or there is boss A that is really good vs meelee or boss b that is really good vs ranged attacks - in some games that would mean certain classes wouldn't be taken for those encounters. In GW2 it just means the warrior equip a rifle or the ranger equips a greatsword.
In the end is up to the developers to keep it up - if chain heal allows something not desired, changing it to "out of combat only" would solve it.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
It only sounds like that because you're not listening.
They've done more than remove the roles of the trinity... they've taken the actual roles away from the players and applied the d/c/s aspects to the skills you bring. That's more significant than people realize. You can't spec yourself as a "control" guy. There's always a blend involved, even if you try to do so. You'll always have skills with damage and supporting aspects to them as well. The very skills attached to the weapons makes sure of that. That's the biggest mental hurdle people need to make... realizing that the tank/heal/dps roles are gone in GW2 and the different aspects are now a part of your weapons and skills, not a part of the character's definition. It makes better sense once that sinks in.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It's truly sad people can't make the transition from the older models. It's just like religion or the current extrovert requirement in the workplace, people just can't seem to let go of outdated ideas that just don't work well.
the old trinity is on it's way out and it's not just in GW2, some other games have made it so multiple roles can be filled by the multiple types of characters like having a dps/healing role, no more dedicated healer, or having a dps/tank role for games that just can't seem to let go.
Dunno what the future of this is either but i have to say that being someone who doesn't like fewer choices, this makes for a better game experience when one isn't limited to where one can go or what one can do just because of a game design flaw, and that essentially is what the trinity is a design flaw. It's the reason why companies had to incorporate a dungeon finder tool, or a role switching mechanic, or classes like the druid in WoW that could be anything. Look at all the things that people have complained about companies including in games just to keep this archaic model.
I just like how trinity stopped being a tank that takes all the damage, a healer that heals all the damage the tank takes and a (or a few) dps that need to kill the mobs/bosses before the mobs/bosses overpower the healer ability to heal damage and the tank ability to sutain damage and became any damage dealt, any heal done, any damage sustained.
Holy trinity is, with a few exceptions (with 0 being trivial, 6 being non-trivial and 10 being unmatched):
Healer:
Damage ....... 0/10 to 3/10
Healing..... 10/10
Ability to sustain damage... 0/10 to 3/10
DPS:
Damage ....... 10/10
Healing..... 0/10 to 3/10
Ability to sustain damage... 0/10 to 3/10
Tank
Damage.... 0/10 to 3/10
Healing... 0/10 to 3/10
Ability to sustain damage... 10/10
Incoming games "character":
Damage.... 6/10 to 8/10
Support/Crowd Control.... 6/10 to 8/10
Ability to waste mob damage.... 6/10 to 8/10
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders