Just using 2 decks in TSW means you have 14 skills and 14 passives in use. One deck for groups and one deck for single targets. That's already a fair amount of variety.
Can you switch decks on the fly in combat?
No of course not. By that logic, you could count every different spec in there and say that WoW chars have 60+ hotkeys. Stop making up numbers. Stop adding the number of passives, that's like a talent spec, you pick your loadout and that's it.
In TSW, you have 7 buttons for abilities. That is it. 7.
Trying to inflate that number betrays your desire to make TSW seem more complex than it is.
Ah, so you're saying that you once you've gained the "appropriate" 7 skills for your 7 buttons, you'll never need to change them ever in TSW ?
- you run into a zombies infested place, the zombies are running to you as if they had pushed the "turbo mode" button and are glued on your body no matter how you move, biting you 24/7 till they are dead.
- No dodging possible, not a possibility to put them away since they are too fast and are glued on your body as if they were your second skin.
I saw a TSW dev commenting on this and said that just moving and active dodging made you live 33% longer than just standing there. The mobs does continous attacks if you stand still, but get forced into the movement animation if you move. You can't backpedal though, you need to circle strafe.
well you cannot just talk the 7 passives away which can add alot to your 7 actives and make them work diffrent.
i had a guy using the exact same loadout for his actives and he sucked completely using the same 2-3 buttons to smash.
Spec is important in every mmo as are the passives in TSW - you're talking about someone trying to heal in a tank spec or something.
Stop using irrelevant examples to bolster a myth. TSW combat is simplistic, skillless and lacking in depth, and once the minor complexities of picking the right spec are done and the best build is found, everyone will use that 1 build and play the same way because TSW has only one "class".
Imagine WoW with only subtlety spec rogues and no other classes or specs. That's what TSW will be.
1. The huge complexity of combat is/was not the strong point of this title. TERA is ----> that way. Frankly i am not looking forward to a community of button mashers leet pvp kids and i'm very happy about that.
2. The reason that most MMO's (and generally games) tend to offer a high selection of skills to chose from but only just a few to be active skills is not random. That's how many peple feel comfortable to accomodate with. Diablo 3 - 6 skills. GW2 - 8 skills was it? TSW - 7 active skills. A limited number of skills and situational awareness seems to be the trend now. If you build a game around obtaining maximum efficiency by using 15 different skills then you are actually forcing your playerbase to play at that level - means people being excluded from instance runs, raids, pvp because using 15 buttons is too much for them and automatically they are not efficient. It might be a good idea on a tiered item-raid progression game like WoW, but TSW does not seem aimed in that direction.
3. The skills "feel" the same, you get the same results - well, if they'd make one/some combinations way stronger, then the whine would be about how strong that one is, cookie cutter, flavor of the month etc. If they balance the skills it seems also wrong. At least they brought some differences with Afflicted, Hindered, Weakened, Impaired etc. Will there be "best" combinations? Yes there will be. It happens in every MMO. Fortunately, there will also be counters to each of those "best" combinations.
4. The only thing that bothers me is the "lack of contact", the visuals, it does not always feel like i'm hitting my target. Yea, this might need a bit of work.
For the super-leet people able to keybind 15 things and efficiently use them: there are games with a lot of buttons to press. I've played Anarchy Online for like 5 years. I used ~9 active attacks and around 15 long term buffs. It's still running and it is an excellent game. You will not find more customization in any game on the market, i can guarantee you that.
A player in GW2 has at least 15 abilities at all times, and several classes have more (elementalists). A basic WoW class will require an average of 20 hotkeys to play competently, and I'm lowballing here, to play a class well in a setting like arena you will need 30+. SWTOR averaged out at 20 as well, as does Rift.
15 hotkeys is actually a fairly low number, and GW2 is considered "streamlined". If you can't keybind at least that, it means you're just uncoodinated.
7 is just too low. It limits gameplay to a simplistic, basic format in TSW.
MOBAs are not like MMOs, their complexity lies in group synergies, positional combat and upgrade paths. Your character in a MOBA has a short shelf life and no persistence just like a FPS or RTS match, MMOs are the exact opposite of this.
When you have a game like a MMO where you play a fixed long-term char for extended periods of time, you need more complexity to give to the player, since he won't be switching up his load-out every 15 mins.
20 hotkeys to play a WoW class? I played a shaman healer for the last 2 years and I never used more than about 7 or 8 regularly, cleared everything on normal mode and halfway up heroic 10mans before i stopped playing.
Before that I had a deathknight tank and that was 15 abilities maximum getting regular usage, before that I played a mage and that was even less buttons to press. Ofcourse WoW has some classes that expect you to use a lot of buttons and some that look like you will need lots when in actual fact you don't at all.
Back in WOTLK half the mages I saw just spammed arcane blast over and over in raids whilst keeping one other ability up, thats 2 buttons.
well you cannot just talk the 7 passives away which can add alot to your 7 actives and make them work diffrent.
i had a guy using the exact same loadout for his actives and he sucked completely using the same 2-3 buttons to smash.
Spec is important in every mmo as are the passives in TSW - you're talking about someone trying to heal in a tank spec or something.
Stop using irrelevant examples to bolster a myth. TSW combat is simplistic, skillless and lacking in depth, and once the minor complexities of picking the right spec are done and the best build is found, everyone will use that 1 build and play the same way because TSW has only one "class".
Imagine WoW with only subtlety spec rogues and no other classes or specs. That's what TSW will be.
It not irrelevant. I ended up playing a DPS/tank and i was doing both roles quite nicely since the synergies stacked up over duration of the fight pushing up my dps to a point where i could easily compete with the dpsers in our team. i never had that in any other game. So trying to talk it 'flat' cannot go uncommented.
well you cannot just talk the 7 passives away which can add alot to your 7 actives and make them work diffrent.
i had a guy using the exact same loadout for his actives and he sucked completely using the same 2-3 buttons to smash.
Spec is important in every mmo as are the passives in TSW - you're talking about someone trying to heal in a tank spec or something.
Stop using irrelevant examples to bolster a myth. TSW combat is simplistic, skillless and lacking in depth, and once the minor complexities of picking the right spec are done and the best build is found, everyone will use that 1 build and play the same way because TSW has only one "class".
Imagine WoW with only subtlety spec rogues and no other classes or specs. That's what TSW will be.
You believe that "eventually" everyone in TSW will use only ONE deck, and everyone will use the SAME deck ?
well you cannot just talk the 7 passives away which can add alot to your 7 actives and make them work diffrent.
i had a guy using the exact same loadout for his actives and he sucked completely using the same 2-3 buttons to smash.
Spec is important in every mmo as are the passives in TSW - you're talking about someone trying to heal in a tank spec or something.
Stop using irrelevant examples to bolster a myth. TSW combat is simplistic, skillless and lacking in depth, and once the minor complexities of picking the right spec are done and the best build is found, everyone will use that 1 build and play the same way because TSW has only one "class".
Imagine WoW with only subtlety spec rogues and no other classes or specs. That's what TSW will be.
You clearly don't understand how the system works. You have already made up your mind about it and anything we say won't change that. It's not like i want you in the game anyways.
Just using 2 decks in TSW means you have 14 skills and 14 passives in use. One deck for groups and one deck for single targets. That's already a fair amount of variety.
Can you switch decks on the fly in combat?
No of course not. By that logic, you could count every different spec in there and say that WoW chars have 60+ hotkeys. Stop making up numbers. Stop adding the number of passives, that's like a talent spec, you pick your loadout and that's it.
In TSW, you have 7 buttons for abilities. That is it. 7.
Trying to inflate that number betrays your desire to make TSW seem more complex than it is.
Ah, so you're saying that you once you've gained the "appropriate" 7 skills for your 7 buttons, you'll never need to change them ever in TSW ?
No, it's not that. That's situational awareness and for them it means nothing. The answer will be "once i've identified what to use, i'll swap to that. It's still 7 things." The main complaint is having only 7 actives.
There is a category of players who have the need to use more buttons. If there's that need, the game feels more complex. They feel good if they have to take many quick decisions, this is making them feel good at the game. I understand that. I do not understand why they try to generalize that their way of enjoyment is the best, why the rest of the world are just bad players, uncoordinated etc. And i surely do not understand why they are here, as TSW obviously it is not a game for them. It is not a combat focused game. The big wheel is just offering specialisation options, choice. For them is the same, as their playstyle is the same. They look for cookie-cutter, and after they find that, they need to feel that they are challenged. I have been like that, now i'm too old for that. They need different challenges than other players, i like solving mysteries and stuff, doing the odd instance from time to time. They are just different, need different challenges and this is not a game for them, that's all.
Example:
Me: "wow i hit this mob and my attack actually heals him, lemme see what the attack does... well it applies afflicted, that seems to be the thing that's healing the mob, i'll have run away, change to a different deck, try a different tactic". I actually do that and succeed. For me this brings some form of enjoyment. Or in instances, when me and my team cannot kill a mob and we just find out that if someone applies weakened and we all synergize around that, the thing will be actually doable, it's the best "response" to the abilities of the mob (when you click a mob it shows some abilities as it's buffs - for example "if the target is weakened, it will regenerate faster")
Them: "bleh look this thing is healing them i'll just switch to deck X and kill it, if not i'm switching to deck Y, it's just the same crap", does not bring them enjoyment.
well you cannot just talk the 7 passives away which can add alot to your 7 actives and make them work diffrent.
i had a guy using the exact same loadout for his actives and he sucked completely using the same 2-3 buttons to smash.
Spec is important in every mmo as are the passives in TSW - you're talking about someone trying to heal in a tank spec or something.
Stop using irrelevant examples to bolster a myth. TSW combat is simplistic, skillless and lacking in depth, and once the minor complexities of picking the right spec are done and the best build is found, everyone will use that 1 build and play the same way because TSW has only one "class".
Imagine WoW with only subtlety spec rogues and no other classes or specs. That's what TSW will be.
You are assuming here that everyone that plays the game plays to be the best dps, many of the people that are intelligent and research there class/role and try to be the best at it, will still not choose certain builds because they flat out don't like them.
I wouldn't play a rogue in WoW because I don't like the class, even if it was best at everything, I would take that challenge and try to be the best "insert class i actually like".
If the best spec in TSW is Assault Rfiles, I will flat out not touch it because I hated the way they worked, so assuming that everyone will just pop online look up the best spec and play it, is a sweeping generalisation.
ok not taking sides here but, TSW at least you have to hit your abilities your builders ect to keep on top of a fight, GW2 just hit 1 then 2-4 repeat, do I find that borring? No but alot of others will
its kind of funny how maitrader has managed to turn this into a GW2 thread. but i did read the OPs issue and i think it was the same one you are referring to with GW2. overly simple rotation.
i'm not taking a stance on that as i did not level high enough or experiment enough inTSW to agree/disagree.
The "overly simple rotation" argument in GW2 doesn't hold water because anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would just dodge the rotation spammers then wreck their face. The OP is showing that there isn't a whole hell of a lot you can do in TSW to get away from getting steamrolled by pressing 1-2. Hopefully Funcom will address this.
Just using 2 decks in TSW means you have 14 skills and 14 passives in use. One deck for groups and one deck for single targets. That's already a fair amount of variety.
Can you switch decks on the fly in combat?
No of course not. By that logic, you could count every different spec in there and say that WoW chars have 60+ hotkeys. Stop making up numbers. Stop adding the number of passives, that's like a talent spec, you pick your loadout and that's it.
In TSW, you have 7 buttons for abilities. That is it. 7.
Trying to inflate that number betrays your desire to make TSW seem more complex than it is.
sorry to disturb your little flameboy discussion here.....
as if ANY Of you would be able to propperly handle more than 7 active skills anyway ^^
i've seen people in TSW. playing. often enough.....
i wonder if it's so easy, how comes nearly 50% of them failed the even easier part, ,moving.
to go for your numbers and examples here:
wow: in wow you fight. 5 mins on a place, then maybe you need to move for 2 secs and can continue your rotation.
you call that skill? seriosly? a programmed bot could run the wow rotation ^^ and actually that's what some people are doing in that game ^^
TSW combat is not build around bashing 10 million keys, agreed.
but those 7 keys you got should be challanging enough for most of you guys ^^ you need to move the whole time of the combat, as soon you stand somewhere to focus on your precious roration, you are dead anyway.
you want as many skill as in wow for TSW? gl on surviving the moving while hitting all your precious keys.
you guys comment on the LOW LVL experience here, basically all that the beta WEs had was wailing cavers, to name an example comming from the WoW world again.
2 instances, reachable in 2 WEs (6 days).
and on hell, most people left on the 4th boss anyway. after whiping the 4th or 5th time.
THAT's what WoW gave us. a bunch of players unable to handle a little challange.
i am seriously happy that some of those think "TSW is too easy" won't be playing. no need to bother with them in retail, excellent
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Just using 2 decks in TSW means you have 14 skills and 14 passives in use. One deck for groups and one deck for single targets. That's already a fair amount of variety.
Can you switch decks on the fly in combat?
No of course not. By that logic, you could count every different spec in there and say that WoW chars have 60+ hotkeys. Stop making up numbers. Stop adding the number of passives, that's like a talent spec, you pick your loadout and that's it.
In TSW, you have 7 buttons for abilities. That is it. 7.
Trying to inflate that number betrays your desire to make TSW seem more complex than it is.
sorry to disturb your little flameboy discussion here.....
as if ANY Of you would be able to propperly handle more than 7 active skills anyway ^^
i've seen people in TSW. playing. often enough.....
i wonder if it's so easy, how comes nearly 50% of them failed the even easier part, ,moving.
to go for your numbers and examples here:
wow: in wow you fight. 5 mins on a place, then maybe you need to move for 2 secs and can continue your rotation.
you call that skill? seriosly? a programmed bot could run the wow rotation ^^ and actually that's what some people are doing in that game ^^
TSW combat is not fucosed around bashing 10 million keys, agreed.
but those 7 keys you got should be challanging enough for most of you guys ^^ you need to move the whole time of the combat, as soon you stand somewhere to focus on your precious roration, you are dead anyway.
you want as many skill as in wow for TSW? gl on surviving the moving while hitting all your precious keys.
you guys comment on the LOW LVL experience here, basically all that the beta WEs had was wailing cavers, to name an example comming from the WoW world again.
2 instances, reachable in 2 WEs (6 days).
and on hell, most people left on the 4th boss anyway. after whiping the 4th or 5th time.
THAT's what WoW gave us. a bunch of players unable to handle a little challange.
i am seriously happy that some of those think "TSW is too easy" won't be playing. no need to bother with them in retail, excellent
a) you don't understand WoW and have likely never played it if you think it's a skillless game of stand in 1 spot for 5 minutes and use a basic macro to play it for you, since there is literally no endgame activity that is remotely like that
b) I will be playing TSW in 2 days, and smugly facerolling newbies like you, who think TSW combat is anything but simplistic and skilless - just like I was doing during the weekend beta events.
The "overly simple rotation" argument in GW2 doesn't hold water because anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would just dodge the rotation spammers then wreck their face. The OP is showing that there isn't a whole hell of a lot you can do in TSW to get away from getting steamrolled by pressing 1-2. Hopefully Funcom will address this.
You have CCs (root/stun/snare), push backs, knockbacks, knockdowns, dash/"blink".. etc, but you need to have an ability equipped for it. People are tying to CC the OP in the video, but since he is higher level, they glance the attack and the cc effect do not apply. (CCs always have a damage component) If someone just purged/debuffed him, he would be helpless agains three lowbies, but I guess most players havn't discovered this part yet. (Elemental outer wheel have some)
The more you read and dig deeper into the ability wheel, the more possibilities are revealed. It can be quite overwhelming actually.
The "overly simple rotation" argument in GW2 doesn't hold water because anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would just dodge the rotation spammers then wreck their face. The OP is showing that there isn't a whole hell of a lot you can do in TSW to get away from getting steamrolled by pressing 1-2. Hopefully Funcom will address this.
You have CCs (root/stun/snare), push backs, knockbacks, knockdowns, dash/"blink".. etc, but you need to have an ability equipped for it. People are tying to CC the OP in the video, but since he is higher level, they glance the attack and the cc effect do not apply. (CCs always have a damage component) If someone just purged/debuffed him, he would be helpless agains three lowbies, but I guess most players havn't discovered this part yet. (Elemental outer wheel have some)
The more you read and dig deeper into the ability wheel, the more possibilities are revealed. It can be quite overwhelming actually.
Shhh let them go away, really. Sure, some will stay to "pwn nubs", but how much "fun" can that be for them in the long time...
Yes, it's terrible, it's beyond bad, it's totally not fun, no customization, not enough abilities, no skill, no nothing. Now go away.
The "overly simple rotation" argument in GW2 doesn't hold water because anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would just dodge the rotation spammers then wreck their face. The OP is showing that there isn't a whole hell of a lot you can do in TSW to get away from getting steamrolled by pressing 1-2. Hopefully Funcom will address this.
You have CCs (root/stun/snare), push backs, knockbacks, knockdowns, dash/"blink".. etc, but you need to have an ability equipped for it. People are tying to CC the OP in the video, but since he is higher level, they glance the attack and the cc effect do not apply. (CCs always have a damage component) If someone just purged/debuffed him, he would be helpless agains three lowbies, but I guess most players havn't discovered this part yet. (Elemental outer wheel have some)
The more you read and dig deeper into the ability wheel, the more possibilities are revealed. It can be quite overwhelming actually.
If you think TSW's spec trees are overwhelming, then forgive the pun but you are "easily baffled".
Most of the opponents I’m fighting are CB testers with QL10 FATE gear (4k+ HP). I’m wearing QL10 greens as well.
This argument revelase one important thing. You assume that HP is the indication of QL gear. I guess you have never entered a pvp game without a boosted character. I have over 5K hp when you approach me in that video, and you completely destroy me because I have QL3 gear and only some basic abilities. Many of the dragon players you approached are new CB players who worked hard to get QL3 as quick as possible before the pvp test. We did not know about the FATE boost.
I have seen you around in Fusang Projects several times, so yes.. you've had time to experiment with your boosted character. You killed me equally fast with your pistol spec earler in the weekend. Most people don't get their character boosted and are complete noobs with low QL talismans and basic abilities. I mean.. a few QL3 players can dominate a QL10 player easily if they knew what they were doing. Did anyone use purges on you? Wouldn't other consumer and aoe spammers (hello blade users) also destroy you?
Yes, more work needs to be done when it comes to balancing, but the video you are posting here highly exaggerates the problem. There is no good way to tell what QL gear the player has. Again, with the def suit I have 5K+ HP on my QL3 character that you decimated in seconds.
I'm pretty sure you're trying to make things up to discredit the video (along with your comments in the youtube channel). First, Fate QL10 DPS gear gives you around ~4K HP, and considering most players use DPS gear as opposed to tank gear, while not perfect HP is good enough for me. Not to mention Fate's been around for well over a week now so there's no reason for the majority of CB testers not to have it. I managed to break 6K HP because I'm using mostly tank gear with a few DPS pieces thrown in. I've been PvPing since I stepped in the Savage Coast with low level QL gear and I never managed to break 4K til I started getting QL7-8 tank pieces. So to have over 5K at QL3, you must be either the luckiest player on TSW (all +health tanking blues I imagine) or be bullshitting. And no, the character booster doesn't boost you that I high. Let's see a video of this character you claim I killed rocking 5k HP with QL3 gear please.
Secondly, I've never stepped in a PvP zone with pistols. I hate their channeled abilities. Likewise, I never PvP'ed earlier, during or anywhere near the weekend (out of town), I only PvP'ed late Monday to get the footage for this video. Hadn't PvPed for a while before that. The footage wasn't obtained furing Fusang test times either. Like I said, you're either talking about the wrong person here, or just making stuff up.
If you want to see what a low QL gear player looks like, see this 3 seconds of the video. I actually did most of the editing to take several guys like him off the video. I really do wish I could put up more challenging fights, but I haven't come across them yet. If you think you can put up a better fight, let me know so we can arrange something. Maybe I'm wrong after all, and you can't kill players by repeatedly smashing your face on the keyboard. This is not to brag or a callout by the way. I'm not even that good, which is the entire point of this video, a player should not be able to do this well by mindlessly spamming 2 buttons over and over. I'm sure some of you disagree, and think the simplicity and repetitiveness of TSW's combat is brilliant, I guess in that case we'll have to agree to disagree. Whoever said that classes in TSW felt like a WoW Rogue with 5 abilities pretty much sums up how I feel about the combat.
Also keep in mind that I've pre-ordered TSW, I'm not just some blind hater. I love the writing and story in this game and definitely think that alone is worth the box price. This is not a "don't buy TSW" thread, more of a "Why I think the combat is boring" thread.
Just using 2 decks in TSW means you have 14 skills and 14 passives in use. One deck for groups and one deck for single targets. That's already a fair amount of variety.
Can you switch decks on the fly in combat?
No of course not. By that logic, you could count every different spec in there and say that WoW chars have 60+ hotkeys. Stop making up numbers. Stop adding the number of passives, that's like a talent spec, you pick your loadout and that's it.
In TSW, you have 7 buttons for abilities. That is it. 7.
Trying to inflate that number betrays your desire to make TSW seem more complex than it is.
sorry to disturb your little flameboy discussion here.....
as if ANY Of you would be able to propperly handle more than 7 active skills anyway ^^
i've seen people in TSW. playing. often enough.....
i wonder if it's so easy, how comes nearly 50% of them failed the even easier part, ,moving.
to go for your numbers and examples here:
wow: in wow you fight. 5 mins on a place, then maybe you need to move for 2 secs and can continue your rotation.
you call that skill? seriosly? a programmed bot could run the wow rotation ^^ and actually that's what some people are doing in that game ^^
TSW combat is not fucosed around bashing 10 million keys, agreed.
but those 7 keys you got should be challanging enough for most of you guys ^^ you need to move the whole time of the combat, as soon you stand somewhere to focus on your precious roration, you are dead anyway.
you want as many skill as in wow for TSW? gl on surviving the moving while hitting all your precious keys.
you guys comment on the LOW LVL experience here, basically all that the beta WEs had was wailing cavers, to name an example comming from the WoW world again.
2 instances, reachable in 2 WEs (6 days).
and on hell, most people left on the 4th boss anyway. after whiping the 4th or 5th time.
THAT's what WoW gave us. a bunch of players unable to handle a little challange.
i am seriously happy that some of those think "TSW is too easy" won't be playing. no need to bother with them in retail, excellent
a) you don't understand WoW and have likely never played it if you think it's a skillless game of stand in 1 spot for 5 minutes and use a basic macro to play it for you, since there is literally no endgame activity that is remotely like that
b) I will be playing TSW in 2 days, and smugly facerolling newbies like you, who think TSW combat is anything but simplistic and skilless - just like I was doing during the weekend beta events.
i dont understand wow? nice, i wonder how i cleaned it'S instances over the past 8 years then, and how i completed those HC challanges
i doubt YOU understood what I said dude.
you want examples?
fight vs morchok,
throw rotation untill he goes plagues, hind behind stones and restart rotation.
fight vs jorsahj
run your rota till the bal bounces the 5th time, move out of the way, go shadow phase, restart rotation
fight vs ultraxion.
stand there, throw out your rotation, jump into twilight every 3 mins. maybe you get to hop an extra time in there, DBM will tell you when tho, no big deal.
madness of deathwing
start rota, move to tentacle or adds comming. rince and repeat till 4th plattform, gather for the healers so they can go AE and then go rota again till he goes down
yea, i clearly have no idea what i talk about here :P
i actually wonder which game you played in the last years *G*
and, i doubt you will be fighting me, you sound alot like an american expecting everything you say is true, without even knowing the basic details. and even if you would fight me.... you'd most likely be one of those genius standing around and wondering why they take dmg since no one is standing infront of them :P
got enough facts to realize you went abit too far up there? or want more
seriously, you called me faceroller, you lost :> how about you throw in some "trololol" there?
being a troll cant be more obvious dude, thx for the conversation tho
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Originat system is as good as any of those, then it means you haven't played any of the others to any level of competence to make a proper judgement on the matter.
LOL 6 years, that it?
I find TSW is by far the most customizationable ( Not sure if I spelled that right ) game in regards to character advancement, I've been playing MMORPGS since 1997 and then even before that MUDS and afew other games , so it does'nt matter if you have 6 years or 50 years of gaming everyone has their own likes/dislikes and me personaly, I found TSW to be extremely refreshing , much better combat that WoW and shall I say? GW2 THERE I SAID IT! LOL
So bottom line I agree with Caldrin and disagree with you.
You can tell you're not very good at working out metagames.
TSW looks complex on the surface, but it's actually very simple for people who understand the underlying mathematics and systems behind hotbar MMOs with buff/debuff types.
There are 2 weapons for 2 sets of combo points, 4 debuff types, and basic synergies. That is all there is.
Take away the glittery wheel, get down to brass tacks on the synergies, and you realise that it has actually very little customisation, and will end up in a handful of best builds for every situation.
This is because you will only ever have 7/7 that you can actually use in a given fight.
Couldn't agree more to be honest. Unfortunaly most people haven't figured this out yet. I guess they're still dazzled by the ability wheel. Give it time I suppose.
stand there, throw out your rotation, jump into twilight every 3 mins. maybe you get to hop an extra time in there, DBM will tell you when tho, no big deal.
WoW - stand still, use rotation... big DBM flashy message on the screen "move out of the way" - you move out of the way, stand still use rotation... big flashy DBM message on the screen "press blue button" - you press blue button, stand still, use rotation... that "exquisite" combat and difficult decision taking game made me actually play a healer, having to watch 25 health bars while doing all that made things a bit more fun. WoW is not a bad game, not at all, but making WoW look like brain surgery and calling TSW junk just because you dislike an aspect is not really fair.
I was about to post something just like you've posted... but why bother. The answers will be "i have played without DBM" and "i'm talking arena pvp" anyway. Better just to leave them alone in their virtual worlds flashin their e-peens "pwning nubz". Too bad they'll be in this game unfortunately, i'm really sure not for long tho, i know this kind of player, met them many times (nothing against them, people are people, different), they will not find what they are looking for here.
As I went through this thread I am amazed at how little most people understand combat in TSW. The Depth given to by the battle wheel to create different builds is mind boggling.
All the players in the video but one had 4100 + HPs, so they used F.A.T.E. or at least had QL 10. The combat system isn't very developed compared to most recent MMOs. It is about equal to warhammer MMO. It is a smal budget MMO with an over developed story so maybe after they get funds from release they can work on the under developed things.
Is close beta pvp scaling different from what bwe scaling was? I went into PvP this weekend with a defensive spec, ql4-5, green talismans and lvl5 talisman skills, i am 100% sure i've had over 6k hp.
This last weekend I had 6000ish hp and was wearing QL3/4 gear. If the people the OP was fighting had about 4100 then something isn't as is it seems. Don't know who this Fate person or thing is or was as I only heard about it after the beta weekend ended.
The build I liked the best was me with my shotgun. The opposing team was hindered, weakened and my team had a greater chance at penetrating their armor. And once these were layed down I was set up to dump my finishers into the crowd. I tried to make use of all 7 slots instead of just spamming 2 or 3 keys.
I made a conscious choice to use as many of the abilites I had access to instead of just making do with a 2-3 button mash technique.
stand there, throw out your rotation, jump into twilight every 3 mins. maybe you get to hop an extra time in there, DBM will tell you when tho, no big deal.
WoW - stand still, use rotation... big DBM flashy message on the screen "move out of the way" - you move out of the way, stand still use rotation... big flashy DBM message on the screen "press blue button" - you press blue button, stand still, use rotation... that "exquisite" combat and difficult decision taking game made me actually play a healer, having to watch 25 health bars while doing all that made things a bit more fun. WoW is not a bad game, not at all, but making WoW look like brain surgery and calling TSW junk just because you dislike an aspect is not really fair.
I was about to post something just like you've posted... but why bother. The answers will be "i have played without DBM" and "i'm talking arena pvp" anyway. Better just to leave them alone in their virtual worlds flashin their e-peens "pwning nubz". Too bad they'll be in this game unfortunately, i'm really sure not for long tho, i know this kind of player, met them many times (nothing against them, people are people, different), they will not find what they are looking for here.
You are correct, Deadly Boss Mods is not even needed, I played a death knight tank all through WOTLK and never once used DBM, I told my guild I had it installed because they required it but each fight involved following very simple tactics that anyone with a brain can work out, the main problem is if the other 24 people in your raid can also follow their simple tactics and not arse it up.
I only used DBM once I became a healer because taking care of everyone else and yourself becomes more of a challenge and its nice to get an alert, as a dps or a tank though it is easy to keep track of what the boss is doing since more often than not you will have him targetted anyway. Saying that healing Ultraxxion normal and heroic is just a numbers game, you have him targetted the whole time so its not hard to see when he casts the spell you need to teleport away from, and the debuff you get is easy to keep track of too. WoW is not THAT complicated, the complexity comes from the number of people doing the task, you are relying on them not to fuck up.
Comments
Ah, so you're saying that you once you've gained the "appropriate" 7 skills for your 7 buttons, you'll never need to change them ever in TSW ?
well you cannot just talk the 7 passives away which can add alot to your 7 actives and make them work diffrent.
i had a guy using the exact same loadout for his actives and he sucked completely using the same 2-3 buttons to smash.
LOL
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I saw a TSW dev commenting on this and said that just moving and active dodging made you live 33% longer than just standing there. The mobs does continous attacks if you stand still, but get forced into the movement animation if you move. You can't backpedal though, you need to circle strafe.
Spec is important in every mmo as are the passives in TSW - you're talking about someone trying to heal in a tank spec or something.
Stop using irrelevant examples to bolster a myth. TSW combat is simplistic, skillless and lacking in depth, and once the minor complexities of picking the right spec are done and the best build is found, everyone will use that 1 build and play the same way because TSW has only one "class".
Imagine WoW with only subtlety spec rogues and no other classes or specs. That's what TSW will be.
20 hotkeys to play a WoW class? I played a shaman healer for the last 2 years and I never used more than about 7 or 8 regularly, cleared everything on normal mode and halfway up heroic 10mans before i stopped playing.
Before that I had a deathknight tank and that was 15 abilities maximum getting regular usage, before that I played a mage and that was even less buttons to press. Ofcourse WoW has some classes that expect you to use a lot of buttons and some that look like you will need lots when in actual fact you don't at all.
Back in WOTLK half the mages I saw just spammed arcane blast over and over in raids whilst keeping one other ability up, thats 2 buttons.
It not irrelevant. I ended up playing a DPS/tank and i was doing both roles quite nicely since the synergies stacked up over duration of the fight pushing up my dps to a point where i could easily compete with the dpsers in our team. i never had that in any other game. So trying to talk it 'flat' cannot go uncommented.
You believe that "eventually" everyone in TSW will use only ONE deck, and everyone will use the SAME deck ?
You clearly don't understand how the system works. You have already made up your mind about it and anything we say won't change that. It's not like i want you in the game anyways.
No, it's not that. That's situational awareness and for them it means nothing. The answer will be "once i've identified what to use, i'll swap to that. It's still 7 things." The main complaint is having only 7 actives.
There is a category of players who have the need to use more buttons. If there's that need, the game feels more complex. They feel good if they have to take many quick decisions, this is making them feel good at the game. I understand that. I do not understand why they try to generalize that their way of enjoyment is the best, why the rest of the world are just bad players, uncoordinated etc. And i surely do not understand why they are here, as TSW obviously it is not a game for them. It is not a combat focused game. The big wheel is just offering specialisation options, choice. For them is the same, as their playstyle is the same. They look for cookie-cutter, and after they find that, they need to feel that they are challenged. I have been like that, now i'm too old for that. They need different challenges than other players, i like solving mysteries and stuff, doing the odd instance from time to time. They are just different, need different challenges and this is not a game for them, that's all.
Example:
Me: "wow i hit this mob and my attack actually heals him, lemme see what the attack does... well it applies afflicted, that seems to be the thing that's healing the mob, i'll have run away, change to a different deck, try a different tactic". I actually do that and succeed. For me this brings some form of enjoyment. Or in instances, when me and my team cannot kill a mob and we just find out that if someone applies weakened and we all synergize around that, the thing will be actually doable, it's the best "response" to the abilities of the mob (when you click a mob it shows some abilities as it's buffs - for example "if the target is weakened, it will regenerate faster")
Them: "bleh look this thing is healing them i'll just switch to deck X and kill it, if not i'm switching to deck Y, it's just the same crap", does not bring them enjoyment.
You are assuming here that everyone that plays the game plays to be the best dps, many of the people that are intelligent and research there class/role and try to be the best at it, will still not choose certain builds because they flat out don't like them.
I wouldn't play a rogue in WoW because I don't like the class, even if it was best at everything, I would take that challenge and try to be the best "insert class i actually like".
If the best spec in TSW is Assault Rfiles, I will flat out not touch it because I hated the way they worked, so assuming that everyone will just pop online look up the best spec and play it, is a sweeping generalisation.
The "overly simple rotation" argument in GW2 doesn't hold water because anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would just dodge the rotation spammers then wreck their face. The OP is showing that there isn't a whole hell of a lot you can do in TSW to get away from getting steamrolled by pressing 1-2. Hopefully Funcom will address this.
sorry to disturb your little flameboy discussion here.....
as if ANY Of you would be able to propperly handle more than 7 active skills anyway ^^
i've seen people in TSW. playing. often enough.....
i wonder if it's so easy, how comes nearly 50% of them failed the even easier part, ,moving.
to go for your numbers and examples here:
wow: in wow you fight. 5 mins on a place, then maybe you need to move for 2 secs and can continue your rotation.
you call that skill? seriosly? a programmed bot could run the wow rotation ^^ and actually that's what some people are doing in that game ^^
TSW combat is not build around bashing 10 million keys, agreed.
but those 7 keys you got should be challanging enough for most of you guys ^^ you need to move the whole time of the combat, as soon you stand somewhere to focus on your precious roration, you are dead anyway.
you want as many skill as in wow for TSW? gl on surviving the moving while hitting all your precious keys.
you guys comment on the LOW LVL experience here, basically all that the beta WEs had was wailing cavers, to name an example comming from the WoW world again.
2 instances, reachable in 2 WEs (6 days).
and on hell, most people left on the 4th boss anyway. after whiping the 4th or 5th time.
THAT's what WoW gave us. a bunch of players unable to handle a little challange.
i am seriously happy that some of those think "TSW is too easy" won't be playing. no need to bother with them in retail, excellent
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
a) you don't understand WoW and have likely never played it if you think it's a skillless game of stand in 1 spot for 5 minutes and use a basic macro to play it for you, since there is literally no endgame activity that is remotely like that
b) I will be playing TSW in 2 days, and smugly facerolling newbies like you, who think TSW combat is anything but simplistic and skilless - just like I was doing during the weekend beta events.
You have CCs (root/stun/snare), push backs, knockbacks, knockdowns, dash/"blink".. etc, but you need to have an ability equipped for it. People are tying to CC the OP in the video, but since he is higher level, they glance the attack and the cc effect do not apply. (CCs always have a damage component) If someone just purged/debuffed him, he would be helpless agains three lowbies, but I guess most players havn't discovered this part yet. (Elemental outer wheel have some)
The more you read and dig deeper into the ability wheel, the more possibilities are revealed. It can be quite overwhelming actually.
Shhh let them go away, really. Sure, some will stay to "pwn nubs", but how much "fun" can that be for them in the long time...
Yes, it's terrible, it's beyond bad, it's totally not fun, no customization, not enough abilities, no skill, no nothing. Now go away.
If you think TSW's spec trees are overwhelming, then forgive the pun but you are "easily baffled".
I'm pretty sure you're trying to make things up to discredit the video (along with your comments in the youtube channel). First, Fate QL10 DPS gear gives you around ~4K HP, and considering most players use DPS gear as opposed to tank gear, while not perfect HP is good enough for me. Not to mention Fate's been around for well over a week now so there's no reason for the majority of CB testers not to have it. I managed to break 6K HP because I'm using mostly tank gear with a few DPS pieces thrown in. I've been PvPing since I stepped in the Savage Coast with low level QL gear and I never managed to break 4K til I started getting QL7-8 tank pieces. So to have over 5K at QL3, you must be either the luckiest player on TSW (all +health tanking blues I imagine) or be bullshitting. And no, the character booster doesn't boost you that I high. Let's see a video of this character you claim I killed rocking 5k HP with QL3 gear please.
Secondly, I've never stepped in a PvP zone with pistols. I hate their channeled abilities. Likewise, I never PvP'ed earlier, during or anywhere near the weekend (out of town), I only PvP'ed late Monday to get the footage for this video. Hadn't PvPed for a while before that. The footage wasn't obtained furing Fusang test times either. Like I said, you're either talking about the wrong person here, or just making stuff up.
If you want to see what a low QL gear player looks like, see this 3 seconds of the video. I actually did most of the editing to take several guys like him off the video. I really do wish I could put up more challenging fights, but I haven't come across them yet. If you think you can put up a better fight, let me know so we can arrange something. Maybe I'm wrong after all, and you can't kill players by repeatedly smashing your face on the keyboard. This is not to brag or a callout by the way. I'm not even that good, which is the entire point of this video, a player should not be able to do this well by mindlessly spamming 2 buttons over and over. I'm sure some of you disagree, and think the simplicity and repetitiveness of TSW's combat is brilliant, I guess in that case we'll have to agree to disagree. Whoever said that classes in TSW felt like a WoW Rogue with 5 abilities pretty much sums up how I feel about the combat.
Also keep in mind that I've pre-ordered TSW, I'm not just some blind hater. I love the writing and story in this game and definitely think that alone is worth the box price. This is not a "don't buy TSW" thread, more of a "Why I think the combat is boring" thread.
i dont understand wow? nice, i wonder how i cleaned it'S instances over the past 8 years then, and how i completed those HC challanges
i doubt YOU understood what I said dude.
you want examples?
fight vs morchok,
throw rotation untill he goes plagues, hind behind stones and restart rotation.
fight vs jorsahj
run your rota till the bal bounces the 5th time, move out of the way, go shadow phase, restart rotation
fight vs ultraxion.
stand there, throw out your rotation, jump into twilight every 3 mins. maybe you get to hop an extra time in there, DBM will tell you when tho, no big deal.
madness of deathwing
start rota, move to tentacle or adds comming. rince and repeat till 4th plattform, gather for the healers so they can go AE and then go rota again till he goes down
yea, i clearly have no idea what i talk about here :P
i actually wonder which game you played in the last years *G*
and, i doubt you will be fighting me, you sound alot like an american
expecting everything you say is true, without even knowing the basic details. and even if you would fight me.... you'd most likely be one of those genius standing around and wondering why they take dmg since no one is standing infront of them :P
got enough facts to realize you went abit too far up there? or want more
seriously, you called me faceroller, you lost :> how about you throw in some "trololol" there?
being a troll cant be more obvious dude, thx for the conversation tho
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Couldn't agree more to be honest. Unfortunaly most people haven't figured this out yet. I guess they're still dazzled by the ability wheel. Give it time I suppose.
said it before, gonna say it again, hf with wow then :>
guess you'll love that pet combat system *G*
if you still think there is nothing but 7 keys to TSW, we won't miss you dude, seriously not.
uh, and @the guys who replied to me earlier. why do you play a game you hate so much? makes me wonder how good your other mmos are ^^
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
WoW - stand still, use rotation... big DBM flashy message on the screen "move out of the way" - you move out of the way, stand still use rotation... big flashy DBM message on the screen "press blue button" - you press blue button, stand still, use rotation... that "exquisite" combat and difficult decision taking game made me actually play a healer, having to watch 25 health bars while doing all that made things a bit more fun. WoW is not a bad game, not at all, but making WoW look like brain surgery and calling TSW junk just because you dislike an aspect is not really fair.
I was about to post something just like you've posted... but why bother. The answers will be "i have played without DBM" and "i'm talking arena pvp" anyway. Better just to leave them alone in their virtual worlds flashin their e-peens "pwning nubz". Too bad they'll be in this game unfortunately, i'm really sure not for long tho, i know this kind of player, met them many times (nothing against them, people are people, different), they will not find what they are looking for here.
As I went through this thread I am amazed at how little most people understand combat in TSW. The Depth given to by the battle wheel to create different builds is mind boggling.
This last weekend I had 6000ish hp and was wearing QL3/4 gear. If the people the OP was fighting had about 4100 then something isn't as is it seems. Don't know who this Fate person or thing is or was as I only heard about it after the beta weekend ended.
The build I liked the best was me with my shotgun. The opposing team was hindered, weakened and my team had a greater chance at penetrating their armor. And once these were layed down I was set up to dump my finishers into the crowd. I tried to make use of all 7 slots instead of just spamming 2 or 3 keys.
I made a conscious choice to use as many of the abilites I had access to instead of just making do with a 2-3 button mash technique.
You are correct, Deadly Boss Mods is not even needed, I played a death knight tank all through WOTLK and never once used DBM, I told my guild I had it installed because they required it but each fight involved following very simple tactics that anyone with a brain can work out, the main problem is if the other 24 people in your raid can also follow their simple tactics and not arse it up.
I only used DBM once I became a healer because taking care of everyone else and yourself becomes more of a challenge and its nice to get an alert, as a dps or a tank though it is easy to keep track of what the boss is doing since more often than not you will have him targetted anyway. Saying that healing Ultraxxion normal and heroic is just a numbers game, you have him targetted the whole time so its not hard to see when he casts the spell you need to teleport away from, and the debuff you get is easy to keep track of too. WoW is not THAT complicated, the complexity comes from the number of people doing the task, you are relying on them not to fuck up.