let's break this down to the simplest possible terms:
Effective (adj.): Adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result.
Efficient (adj.) Performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort.
in this example, the OP, and all his supporters have a valid case, arguing that TSW will eventually boild down to spamming 2-3 buttons and 3-4 build in the name of efficiency. even though he should have named the heavily edited video "how to curb-stomp PvP noobs with the least possible effort", there is still a case to be made for what appears to be a troublesome mechanic for some players, and i appreciate the case made here.
NOW, add the adjective "most" before each term.
"efficient" gains virtually no new meaning. either you are, or you are not.
meanwhile, the term "most effective" becomes an entirely different concept.
the player who properly synergizes passive skills with 7 active skills, will be a much "more effective" player than the "efficient" one. now take two players of equal skill, and our OP is the one facerolled instead.
For those wondering what my build was: I'm using two single target attacks (sometimes 3, especially in PvE), 3 impairs and 2 evasion CDs. Synergies and passives revolve around burst and impair. I've been playing long enough to know what synergies are, and how to get the most from them (and I do). That's not the point of this thread.
As you can see from the video, I can afford to devote 5 of my slots to ablities with 45 sec CDs because I can quickly drop opponents by spamming the same two abilities ad nauseum before they can do anything, and they cannot do anything because I can devote 5 of my slots to CCs and buffs and do plenty of damage with just two abilties.
I don't need any more attacks and the system punishes me if I do because by picking more attacks I'd have to drop some of my impairs/buffs, which are a lot more useful than the marginal increase in damage I could get from using more builders/spenders. I've done similar builds with rifle, blade, hammer and shotgun where I spam 2-3 attacks and use the rest of my slots for long CD abilities (i.e. buffs, CC, etc). The results are pretty much the same you see in this video. Unfortunaly it makes for very boring and repetitive combat, but I've yet to see something better. That is the entire point of this thread, players should not be rewarded by using shitty rotations like the ones I use.
A lot of theory crafters in this thread but someone has yet to step up and show me how I'm wrong in actual practice.
i don't think anyone said your build wouldn't work, just that unless you tested 6 million combinations, then you don't know which is best (or even among the best). all we know is that it's efficient against some PvP beta testers. i wonder what would happen in Fusang if someone with half a brain jumped you while all your beloved CC's and debuffs were on CD (the same way you jumped those already in combat when you could activate them). i'll tell you...you'd spend so much time at the respawn point, you'd have a park bench nearby dedicated in your name.
Many have said that force grouping doesn't make better community or sociallization and that it's not was defines an mmo. So, besides some solo instanced from time to time and a solo main story, which is also a smaller part of the game, everything else is mmo just like all others. I don't consider open world events like Rifts and DE them to make it any more mmo (and i like those games).
To me, sandboxes define mmo alot better, but in themeparks it's more complicated. Personally, i consider players talking face to face, rping together, being friendly, etc to far more of an mmo activity than zerging some big boss i the world with nobody talking or even knowing each other, much less wanting too.
As far as subpar, again, that's an opinion. To you it may be so, but to me, it's the most unique and special themepark coming out.
EDIT: BUT, this is out of topic. Sorry. As far as combat goes, like i already stated in my initial post, it's not the reason why i'm playing this game and don't care.
For those wondering what my build was: I'm using two single target attacks (sometimes 3, especially in PvE), 3 impairs and 2 evasion CDs. Synergies and passives revolve around burst and impair. I've been playing long enough to know what synergies are, and how to get the most from them (and I do). That's not the point of this thread.
As you can see from the video, I can afford to devote 5 of my slots to ablities with 45 sec CDs because I can quickly drop opponents by spamming the same two abilities ad nauseum before they can do anything, and they cannot do anything because I can devote 5 of my slots to CCs and buffs and do plenty of damage with just two abilties.
I don't need any more attacks and the system punishes me if I do because by picking more attacks I'd have to drop some of my impairs/buffs, which are a lot more useful than the marginal increase in damage I could get from using more builders/spenders. I've done similar builds with rifle, blade, hammer and shotgun where I spam 2-3 attacks and use the rest of my slots for long CD abilities (i.e. buffs, CC, etc). The results are pretty much the same you see in this video. Unfortunaly it makes for very boring and repetitive combat, but I've yet to see something better. That is the entire point of this thread, players should not be rewarded by using shitty rotations like the ones I use.
A lot of theory crafters in this thread but someone has yet to step up and show me how I'm wrong in actual practice.
I've played around with your build today in Fusang Projects. Apart from being spammy as hell, the efficiency is actually better than I expected, but not anything near the efficency you are showing in your video. We had 10-25 players from each faction, and people were somewhat organized. In hectic situations those long CDs will create some problems though. You can quickly appear in the middle of the battle and get healers and dps'ers down quickly, but that normally stops at one or two targets killed depending on the reaction of the enemies. Running around on the outer road in Fusang taking down singles or pairs works well depending on the enemy spec. If I see an elementalist, I try to stay away. Some hammer specs are also pretty devestating.
You should give that spec another run in CB. Also, have you posted anything about this on the CB forum? If you are looking for answers, that is the place to go.
i don't think anyone said your build wouldn't work, just that unless you tested 6 million combinations, then you don't know which is best (or even among the best). all we know is that it's efficient against some PvP beta testers. i wonder what would happen in Fusang if someone with half a brain jumped you while all your beloved CC's and debuffs were on CD (the same way you jumped those already in combat when you could activate them). i'll tell you...you'd spend so much time at the respawn point, you'd have a park bench nearby dedicated in your name.
I have 5 different CDs, the chances of all of them being on cooldown is not very high unless I'm already engaged in 1vs2 or something, in which case if Im jumped by another guy it wouldn't be exactly fair, would it? Or are you just trying to prove that I can die? Because I can, I even showed it in the video. If you think about it, what you're saying actually supports my argument that by packing a lot of gamechanging long CD abilties and fewer attacks you have higher chances of having one of the CDs up and turning around a fight vs someone who only has 1 or 2 good CDs and a lot of rebundant attacks (ie 80% of spenders/builders in the game).
For those wondering what my build was: I'm using two single target attacks (sometimes 3, especially in PvE), 3 impairs and 2 evasion CDs. Synergies and passives revolve around burst and impair. I've been playing long enough to know what synergies are, and how to get the most from them (and I do). That's not the point of this thread.
As you can see from the video, I can afford to devote 5 of my slots to ablities with 45 sec CDs because I can quickly drop opponents by spamming the same two abilities ad nauseum before they can do anything, and they cannot do anything because I can devote 5 of my slots to CCs and buffs and do plenty of damage with just two abilties.
I don't need any more attacks and the system punishes me if I do because by picking more attacks I'd have to drop some of my impairs/buffs, which are a lot more useful than the marginal increase in damage I could get from using more builders/spenders. I've done similar builds with rifle, blade, hammer and shotgun where I spam 2-3 attacks and use the rest of my slots for long CD abilities (i.e. buffs, CC, etc). The results are pretty much the same you see in this video. Unfortunaly it makes for very boring and repetitive combat, but I've yet to see something better. That is the entire point of this thread, players should not be rewarded by using shitty rotations like the ones I use.
A lot of theory crafters in this thread but someone has yet to step up and show me how I'm wrong in actual practice.
I've played around with your build today in Fusang Projects. Apart from being spammy as hell, the efficiency is actually better than I expected, but not anything near the efficency you are showing in your video. We had 10-25 players from each faction, and people were somewhat organized. In hectic situations those long CDs will create some problems though. You can quickly appear in the middle of the battle and get healers and dps'ers down quickly, but that normally stops at one or two targets killed depending on the reaction of the enemies. Running around on the outer road in Fusang taking down singles or pairs works well depending on the enemy spec. If I see an elementalist, I try to stay away. Some hammer specs are also pretty devestating.
You should give that spec another run in CB. Also, have you posted anything about this on the CB forum? If you are looking for answers, that is the place to go.
I played some more with it last night (also messed around with a blade/hammer spec with similar results). So far I haven't had issues with any solo players, regardless of build. In theory I could see a good Rifle/Chaos player giving me trouble with a hinder build, but again they would be restricted to only a couple of attacks with the rest of the slots being hinders with longish CDs and buffs. It would still be a spammy, repetitive build.
I think charging into a zerg and getting killed it's more reflective of the disadvantage melee builds face in zerg vs zerg fights if anything. At least with this build you can take down a couple of players before dying thanks to the defensive CDs and impairs. A melee build without them would get focused down a lot faster and be mostly useless in large scale PvP.
I've posted many times in the CB forum how I felt the rebundancy of builders/spenders, paired with a limit of only 7 actives, was a poor decision and made the combat spammy and repetitive. I was met with canned responses like "it's designed that way so your choices matter" so I eventually stopped bringing it up. On the bright side they later listened to our suggestions regarding Active Dodge and added it, so there's still hope. Maybe if more people realize why it is that the combat feels boring and repetitive (and many people do feel that way) Funcom might actually do something about it.
My perfect TSW would have a limit of 10 abilities (passives can remain the same), with the builder/spenders reworked. Add medium CDs (ie. 8-20 secs) to 50% of them and significantly increase their current damage (as well as keeping their respective synergies) so they're considerably better than builders/spenders with no CDs. This would go a long way in improving the combat by allowing you to use more dynamic rotations without gimping yourself. Also spice up some of the animations, identical or nearly identical animations are a no no.
what do u preffer 30 + abilities on your hot bar or 7 to choose from 500+?(dont forget that to use 30+ abilities to their full capacity you have to be at list semi-profesional piano player)
Its a matter of choice and preference. And has nothing to do with design. Limiting your deck to 2 spammable skills in a video was your choice. Will you be able to do the same thing using same skills in a month time? I very much doupt it.
I think it's pretty clear that there is only very subtle skill variety and very little that is situational. With only 7 active skill slots, there just isn't a lot of room for situational skills and the entire thing just encourages people to identify the most efficient skill rotations and repeat them ad nauseum.
I personally didn't find combat bad enough to distract from the atmosphere, setting and story, but I am a little worried that it may get boring after more time playing.
I guess this makes things easier to balance, but there is so much more they could do with skills to make them more interesting. I hope that they will slowly rework the skill sets after launch, removing some of the superfluous stuff and adding more variety.
Believe it or not, I actually was encouraged that the OP could be so capable with just two skills. That means people could make room on the skill bar for more situational skills, with out sacrificing their damage dealing capabilities. The theorycrafting and evolving meta should be interesting for this game.
We "fanboys" played it also. And we love it as it was. It is different and better for most of us. That's the whole deal. There are thousands of games with the same WoW-ish gameplay out there, all aimed to people who want 15 keys combat. This is different. Combat is different, situational, specialized, the complexity comes from the options you have, not from the numbers of keys you can correctly press per second.
The fact that you did not enjoy it 15 minutes after you started to beta test and that you feel combat is "all you are going to do" in TSW, the fact that the game didn't call for you to get into it to learn more abilities to create different decks to use different skills etc makes it not a game for you. I really appreciate the video and the initial poster, he put effort into it but his opinion is very subjective. All he has proven is that he feels the game is not rewarding or challenging enough for him. Let me boost to max level, get the latest Arena gear in WoW and go into battlegrounds with naked people. Bet i can kill everyone using 2 buttons.
If they mainstream this title too and make it play like every other MMO out there, a lot more people will be dissapointed.
I didnt realize you had spyware on my computer and tracked my gameplay time. You totally busted me having only played for 15 minutes, thinking PvP was all the game was about and realizing I never touched a deck or even knew what one was. I sure am glad you were able to access my comuter and read my mind to get all that information and didnt just make it up to justify your position.
No one is saying the game sucks, no one is saying make it like WoW. You can keep spouting that crap for several more pages but most people with an IQ over 70 can read enough to see the OP just has an issue with the combat. If you feel the combat is the best in any MMO then say it and load up some video to back your position. Make a valid arguement. You fanbois saying he only fought newbies with no gear are just making more assumptions. Why dont you fanbois put your money where your mouth is and setup a day/time to meetup with the OP and prove his point is weak? Let the OP video himself owning you or you owning him. Anything else is just words that dont mean a thing. But if it makes you feel better, post more assumptions about how I really only played for 5 minutes and I want the graphics changed to cartoony WoW style graphics. I'm sure it will make you feel better.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
You could tell just by playing beta weekends that the combat system is definitely one of the games glaring weak points.I was more interested in the mobs,atmosphere and theme than anything with this game.
We "fanboys" played it also. And we love it as it was. It is different and better for most of us. That's the whole deal. There are thousands of games with the same WoW-ish gameplay out there, all aimed to people who want 15 keys combat. This is different. Combat is different, situational, specialized, the complexity comes from the options you have, not from the numbers of keys you can correctly press per second.
The fact that you did not enjoy it 15 minutes after you started to beta test and that you feel combat is "all you are going to do" in TSW, the fact that the game didn't call for you to get into it to learn more abilities to create different decks to use different skills etc makes it not a game for you. I really appreciate the video and the initial poster, he put effort into it but his opinion is very subjective. All he has proven is that he feels the game is not rewarding or challenging enough for him. Let me boost to max level, get the latest Arena gear in WoW and go into battlegrounds with naked people. Bet i can kill everyone using 2 buttons.
If they mainstream this title too and make it play like every other MMO out there, a lot more people will be dissapointed.
I didnt realize you had spyware on my computer and tracked my gameplay time. You totally busted me having only played for 15 minutes, thinking PvP was all the game was about and realizing I never touched a deck or even knew what one was. I sure am glad you were able to access my comuter and read my mind to get all that information and didnt just make it up to justify your position.
No one is saying the game sucks, no one is saying make it like WoW. You can keep spouting that crap for several more pages but most people with an IQ over 70 can read enough to see the OP just has an issue with the combat. If you feel the combat is the best in any MMO then say it and load up some video to back your position. Make a valid arguement. You fanbois saying he only fought newbies with no gear are just making more assumptions. Why dont you fanbois put your money where your mouth is and setup a day/time to meetup with the OP and prove his point is weak? Let the OP video himself owning you or you owning him. Anything else is just words that dont mean a thing. But if it makes you feel better, post more assumptions about how I really only played for 5 minutes and I want the graphics changed to cartoony WoW style graphics. I'm sure it will make you feel better.
Re-read your post, it's you that said you were only spamming 2 abilities and thought that "if that's all i'm gonna do", it's bad, and that you are willing to leave the game for a MMO which let you down but has good combat. I was just rephrasing. And no, i do not want to "meet up" with OP and show him who's boss. I'm not a kid anymore. I did not say anything about graphics, you're obviously exaggerating.
It's simple: if combat it's only what you care about, and you don't like it because it's not like in WoW or GW2, then this game is not for you, leave, that's the solution (LE: see the post below, exactly what i'm talking about). The game is not broke because someone runs around with top tier gear and full wheel, in an edited video, killing everyone in 3 shots and claiming they were all top tier players. The game is what it is, and changing it to be more like whatever other boring progression leet filled with garbage e-peen kids who ask for item level to do an instance or PvP won't do it any good. Most of us are here because we do not like that behavior, there's like every other game out there catering for you guys, why ruin this one.
WoW = complex......that was by far the best joke I have seen on these forums. I played the game for years and all you needed to know was don't stand in the red circle of death. And that was challenging for many. Or they were just too bored and weren't paying attention due to the simplicity of the game.
And yet, WoW is more complex. I'm sure you went to elitist jerks and simcraft to work out your best WoW builds, but some people had to do the maths to work those out, and continue working them out as patches and expansions altered the metagame over the years. The maths behind TSW is much simpler than for WoW.
TSW - because it limits the number of active abilities to 7 - is actually very basic and very limited compared to WoW or GW2. That's just mathematical fact. If you take the WoW metagame, but only allow people to slot 7 skills, the simcraft rotations would be recalculated, and you would end up with some very tight, very basic little specs.
GW2's metagame is esports all the way. It's much more complex than both because they of their condition/boon and traits systems and due to the way classes can interact to create synergies in teamplay.
TSW does not have any classes, so once you find the optimal build for everyone you can create your own synergies.
With only 4 total debuff types (which also encompass CC) you don't need teamplay synergies at all, you can just create them yourself. Not to mention, if you notice how the TSW debuffs work on unit frames, you would realise that the interaction of different players on one target does not allow for anything more than 1 synergy per debuff type.
TSW is basic and limited. It disguises this by turning basic talent trees into a fancy looking wheel that make it seem like you have hundreds of abilities, when really all you have is 7 per role, with a lot of fluff thrown in.
In TSW you only need to know 2 things:
What is your level: QLx where x is your effective level
What is your spec: 7/7
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.
Well I stopped playing Tera and will be playing TSW tomorrow, so why should I not be on this forum?
Just because I'm not a fanboy doesn't mean I won't play the game. I just play with an open, critical eye, rather than mindlessly adoring and flag-waving.
It's ok to be critical about the game you play, necessary even for the health of the game.
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.
Well I stopped playing Tera and will be playing TSW tomorrow, so why should I not be on this forum?
Just because I'm not a mindless fanboy doesn't mean I won't play the game. I just play with an open, critical eye, rather than mindlessly adoring and flag-waving.
It's ok to be critical about the game you play, necessary even for the health of the game.
Yet you are saying that everyone not agreeing with you is slow, doing everything wrong etc. One does not have to be a "mindless fanboy" to get tired of mindless bashing and labeling.
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.
Well I stopped playing Tera and will be playing TSW tomorrow, so why should I not be on this forum?
Just because I'm not a mindless fanboy doesn't mean I won't play the game. I just play with an open, critical eye, rather than mindlessly adoring and flag-waving.
It's ok to be critical about the game you play, necessary even for the health of the game.
Yet you are saying that everyone not agreeing with you is slow, doing everything wrong etc. One does not have to be a "mindless fanboy" to get tired of mindless bashing and labeling.
tbh people who don't understand how the ability trees, stats and level system in TSW work are being slow, it's really not complicated. I'm not saying they are mentally deficient or anything, just that they are not thinking things through.
The best analogy I can think of is people not splitting up a restaurant dinner bill because they think it's too complicated or can't be bothered to divide by 4.
tbh people who don't understand how the ability trees, stats and level system in TSW work are being slow, it's really not complicated. I'm not saying they are mentally deficient or anything, just that they are not thinking things through.
The best analogy I can think of is people not splitting up a restaurant dinner bill because they think it's too complicated or can't be bothered to divide by 4.
Most people, myself included, aren't "not understanding" the combat. We're "not liking it".
The game might chiefly be about questing, but combat is what 90% of players do 90% of the time when they're not questing, and at least half the quests involve combat to some extent, even if its dealing with agro while running to your destination.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Yet you are saying that everyone not agreeing with you is slow, doing everything wrong etc. One does not have to be a "mindless fanboy" to get tired of mindless bashing and labeling.
Where the hell do you read that? It really sounds like you are inferring what you want.
All he's saying is poker = more complex than TSW. Which I would absolutely agree. Watch a game of professional poker. There's not only a lot of math involved, but there's an entirely 2ndary layer of psychology built on top of this.
Hell, I'm not a 'great' poker player, but I've managed to beat pretty good players by figuring out their playerstyle, and what the weaknesses / strengths of that are. I.E. I managed to win a game w/ some other devs, because I knew they were playing a purely logical game. So I spent a lot of the game playing illogically / chaoticly, and they had no clue how to handle that.
Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.
I had some discussions yesterday regarding the combat in TSW, so I decided to throw a video together with some footage I got last night to help illustrate my point to the more visually oriented folks. Keep in mind that this video was shot after the NDA was lifted. No broken or perceived as broken abilities (i.e. Explosive Expert) were used during this video. I tried to focus on the more even fights (lots of 1vs1s, 1vs2s and some 1vs3s) since it’s hard to get a good idea of how the combat works in more chaotic zerg vs zerg fights. Most of the opponents I’m fighting are CB testers with QL10 FATE gear (4k+ HP). I’m wearing QL10 greens as well.
I know the video is boring. I’m mindlessly smashing 2 buttons the entire time, and I facerolled everyone doing it. I did this intentionally to illustrate why I think the combat is poorly designed and why it favors boring, repetitive gameplay. Here are the biggest offenders:
Superfluous abilities: The majority of attacks (i.e. resource builders and spenders) feel like they’ve been copied and pasted. Heck, even a lot of the animations are identical. The minuscule differences between them don’t have a big enough impact to warrant using more than one of each. For example, once you have a decent synergy with a builder and a ST/AOE spender, you’re pretty much set to faceroll your way through 99% of the content in the game, including PvP, by smashing 2-3 buttons ad nauseum. If you played SWTOR, I have two words that describe this perfectly: TRACER MERC. Every build I’ve tried in two months’ worth of testing feels like a tracer merc, hitting the same 2-3 button over and over again. Every once in a while I’d throw in a different ability, mostly because I got bored though, it’s not actually necessary. So what’s stopping me from using my other slots to build an engaging rotation you ask? Well, continue reading.
Ability Cap: Or how TSW rewards you for using boring rotations. Here’s the thing most people don’t realize yet: due to the homogenization of attacks, passive abilities have a bigger impact on your DPS (and healing to some extent) than the attacks you use. You might think I’m bullshitting you. After all how could that be true when abilities like Thor’s Hammer hit so hard? Well, it’s actually not that good. People who have done the math will tell you that you’re actually better off just using a rotation like the one shown in the video (i.e. frantically spamming two buttons over and over). You can accomplish this with pretty much any two attacks if you know what you’re doing. Mine’s actually not even that good compared to some other mindless rotations I’ve seen, but I’m a sucker for Chaos and punching people in the face. I guess I’m glad the animations are identical in this case.
How does TSW reward you for this? Having the attacks not make much of a difference forces you to limit the number of attacks you have. Since the majority of them are more or less the same, you’ll do just as good with only 2 or 3 compared to someone packing 3 consumers and 4 spenders. In addition, you’ll have 4 slots where you can put things that actually make a difference like defensive CDs, damage buffs and CC. The problem with this is that those useful abilities generally have long cooldowns (5 out of 7 of my abilities have 45sec CDs), which leads to mashing the same 2-3 buttons 90% of the time. One way to fix this would be to raise the cap to 10 abilities. Were that the case, I can see myself including at least 2 new attacks to my rotation, since the numbers of additional active buffs and CCs I can have is already limited by the weapons I have equipped. While hardly game-changing, adding two more bread-and-butter attacks could go a long way in keeping me awake, and might even provide a slight improvement, but with a limit of 7 active abilities? No way Jose. There’s better stuff to consider. The other (and most likely to happen) way to fix this would be to nerf the handful of decent actives left into the ground, thus making everything as boring and uninspired as the majority of attacks. Until then, mashing the same 2-3 keys is the price I and many others will have to pay for the sake of effectiveness.
tl;dr: the degree of similarities between the majority of abilities and the limitation on how many you can use at a time just seems like a very lazy attempt at balance and it’s the reason why the combat feels lackluster. The other MMOs I’ve played that limited you to such a small number of active abilities compensated by giving you access to ALL the attacks with the weapon you were using so the combat wasn’t as repetitive. I know that simple, mindless rotations are not new to MMOs, but this is the first game I’ve played that actually punishes you for doing the opposite.
You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.
You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all. So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.
Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.
You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.
If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?
Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.
Notice something lacking from your assessment?
You aren't considering skill at all.
That says a considerable amount about the game.
I mean, counterclasses (counterspecs here) happen. But if you're correct, then you're rock and your enemy is scissors or paper.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
tbh people who don't understand how the ability trees, stats and level system in TSW work are being slow, it's really not complicated. I'm not saying they are mentally deficient or anything, just that they are not thinking things through.
The best analogy I can think of is people not splitting up a restaurant dinner bill because they think it's too complicated or can't be bothered to divide by 4.
Most people, myself included, aren't "not understanding" the combat. We're "not liking it".
The game might chiefly be about questing, but combat is what 90% of players do 90% of the time when they're not questing, and at least half the quests involve combat to some extent, even if its dealing with agro while running to your destination.
oh hey, I get that, I don't really like the combat either, but my preferences are not what I'm discussing here, I'll be playing TSW sort of like a point-and-click story game, with maybe a dash of owning large numbers of combat fanboys with my guild in Fusang.
I was just saying that those who say the combat and spec trees in TSW are complex and deep are actually wrong, much in the same way as one can be wrong about the R-squared of a statistical study - that it is a matter of fact that TSW is actually very simplistic and limited, not a matter of preference.
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.
Why if people cant defend game they always starting to say crazy things, in what way GW cllone of Wow? OP never said TSW is bad game he just said and SHOWED, fights in game poor as no need in situational Spells like cc and only thing you need 2 fingers and once in a while hit 3rd button. as game not even finished after 7/3 it will be getting patches all the time for sure. And to other ppl who saying he is fighting with low "lvl" ppl - if ppl were in Close beta for months and had 4k+ its kinda stupid to say they are ungeared or in tank gear (yeah tank is what you want in pvp!) as he showed how Ungeared player owned in 3 hits in a link before. Sure most of players act like retards so in other hand maybe TSW designed for ppl who have troubles hitting even 2 buttons and moving mouse sametime.
Still good video good post just no need to hate OP only because he is trying to show problems in a game.
Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.
Notice something lacking from your assessment?
You aren't considering skill at all.
That says a considerable amount about the game.
I mean, counterclasses (counterspecs here) happen. But if you're correct, then you're rock and your enemy is scissors or paper.
I left that out of my assessment, because I didn't need to know how skilled the player was. Their skill basically meant the difference between whether or not I ended a fight w/ most of my HP, or wounded. Either way, I had a self-heal to take care of that.
Hell, I'm not even the only one w/ this experience. There have been a number of videos / livestreams posted that all show the same thing. There just aren't enough counters, you know what your build is good at, and what it isn't. You can generally tell what another person is running by their health / weapons (or even kit, since your appearance changes depending on what you Q up as). A low damage spec is going to suck against a good healer, so unless you can down his HP pool in a few hits, you can't win it. A high damage spec can eat a healer alive np, as well as another DPS, but if they find a tank w/ more than double their HP, it's going to be a very tough fight. etc. You can try a more balanced spec as well, which might make it harder for you to determine the outcome of a fight, but generally I've found these don't do that well in this game's PvP.
You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.
You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all. So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.
Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.
You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.
If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?
So 1 more person who knows everythg saying OP got TOp gear AND he can't get HIM below 70%
PLS moreblahblah post video with your char 1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot" or really try to argue about topic here "complex of fight in TSW"
you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons. nothg else. you dont need any tactic you dont need cc.
You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.
You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all. So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.
Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.
You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.
If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?
So 1 more person who knows everythg saying OP got TOp gear AND he can't get HIM below 70%
PLS moreblahblah post video with your char 1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot" or really try to argue about topic here "complex of fight in TSW"
you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons. nothg else. you dont need any tactic you dont need cc.
Yeah I don't think Moreblahblah realises it, but what he just said was in effect that:
Comments
i don't think anyone said your build wouldn't work, just that unless you tested 6 million combinations, then you don't know which is best (or even among the best). all we know is that it's efficient against some PvP beta testers. i wonder what would happen in Fusang if someone with half a brain jumped you while all your beloved CC's and debuffs were on CD (the same way you jumped those already in combat when you could activate them). i'll tell you...you'd spend so much time at the respawn point, you'd have a park bench nearby dedicated in your name.
That's a matter of opinion.
Many have said that force grouping doesn't make better community or sociallization and that it's not was defines an mmo. So, besides some solo instanced from time to time and a solo main story, which is also a smaller part of the game, everything else is mmo just like all others. I don't consider open world events like Rifts and DE them to make it any more mmo (and i like those games).
To me, sandboxes define mmo alot better, but in themeparks it's more complicated. Personally, i consider players talking face to face, rping together, being friendly, etc to far more of an mmo activity than zerging some big boss i the world with nobody talking or even knowing each other, much less wanting too.
As far as subpar, again, that's an opinion. To you it may be so, but to me, it's the most unique and special themepark coming out.
EDIT: BUT, this is out of topic. Sorry. As far as combat goes, like i already stated in my initial post, it's not the reason why i'm playing this game and don't care.
I've played around with your build today in Fusang Projects. Apart from being spammy as hell, the efficiency is actually better than I expected, but not anything near the efficency you are showing in your video. We had 10-25 players from each faction, and people were somewhat organized. In hectic situations those long CDs will create some problems though. You can quickly appear in the middle of the battle and get healers and dps'ers down quickly, but that normally stops at one or two targets killed depending on the reaction of the enemies. Running around on the outer road in Fusang taking down singles or pairs works well depending on the enemy spec. If I see an elementalist, I try to stay away. Some hammer specs are also pretty devestating.
You should give that spec another run in CB. Also, have you posted anything about this on the CB forum? If you are looking for answers, that is the place to go.
I have 5 different CDs, the chances of all of them being on cooldown is not very high unless I'm already engaged in 1vs2 or something, in which case if Im jumped by another guy it wouldn't be exactly fair, would it? Or are you just trying to prove that I can die? Because I can, I even showed it in the video. If you think about it, what you're saying actually supports my argument that by packing a lot of gamechanging long CD abilties and fewer attacks you have higher chances of having one of the CDs up and turning around a fight vs someone who only has 1 or 2 good CDs and a lot of rebundant attacks (ie 80% of spenders/builders in the game).
I played some more with it last night (also messed around with a blade/hammer spec with similar results). So far I haven't had issues with any solo players, regardless of build. In theory I could see a good Rifle/Chaos player giving me trouble with a hinder build, but again they would be restricted to only a couple of attacks with the rest of the slots being hinders with longish CDs and buffs. It would still be a spammy, repetitive build.
I think charging into a zerg and getting killed it's more reflective of the disadvantage melee builds face in zerg vs zerg fights if anything. At least with this build you can take down a couple of players before dying thanks to the defensive CDs and impairs. A melee build without them would get focused down a lot faster and be mostly useless in large scale PvP.
I've posted many times in the CB forum how I felt the rebundancy of builders/spenders, paired with a limit of only 7 actives, was a poor decision and made the combat spammy and repetitive. I was met with canned responses like "it's designed that way so your choices matter" so I eventually stopped bringing it up. On the bright side they later listened to our suggestions regarding Active Dodge and added it, so there's still hope. Maybe if more people realize why it is that the combat feels boring and repetitive (and many people do feel that way) Funcom might actually do something about it.
My perfect TSW would have a limit of 10 abilities (passives can remain the same), with the builder/spenders reworked. Add medium CDs (ie. 8-20 secs) to 50% of them and significantly increase their current damage (as well as keeping their respective synergies) so they're considerably better than builders/spenders with no CDs. This would go a long way in improving the combat by allowing you to use more dynamic rotations without gimping yourself. Also spice up some of the animations, identical or nearly identical animations are a no no.
what game is better chess or draughts?
what do u preffer 30 + abilities on your hot bar or 7 to choose from 500+?(dont forget that to use 30+ abilities to their full capacity you have to be at list semi-profesional piano player)
Its a matter of choice and preference. And has nothing to do with design. Limiting your deck to 2 spammable skills in a video was your choice. Will you be able to do the same thing using same skills in a month time? I very much doupt it.
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I think it's pretty clear that there is only very subtle skill variety and very little that is situational. With only 7 active skill slots, there just isn't a lot of room for situational skills and the entire thing just encourages people to identify the most efficient skill rotations and repeat them ad nauseum.
I personally didn't find combat bad enough to distract from the atmosphere, setting and story, but I am a little worried that it may get boring after more time playing.
I guess this makes things easier to balance, but there is so much more they could do with skills to make them more interesting. I hope that they will slowly rework the skill sets after launch, removing some of the superfluous stuff and adding more variety.
Believe it or not, I actually was encouraged that the OP could be so capable with just two skills. That means people could make room on the skill bar for more situational skills, with out sacrificing their damage dealing capabilities. The theorycrafting and evolving meta should be interesting for this game.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Remember the most successfull game in the history of PC game aka 2 button smasher....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeHJHsHYQV8
Now Playing: DARKFALL Unholy Wars "Return to Open World, Full Loot PvP, Conquest in a Sandbox MMO with player driven economy! Just like classic MMOs!"
I didnt realize you had spyware on my computer and tracked my gameplay time. You totally busted me having only played for 15 minutes, thinking PvP was all the game was about and realizing I never touched a deck or even knew what one was. I sure am glad you were able to access my comuter and read my mind to get all that information and didnt just make it up to justify your position.
No one is saying the game sucks, no one is saying make it like WoW. You can keep spouting that crap for several more pages but most people with an IQ over 70 can read enough to see the OP just has an issue with the combat. If you feel the combat is the best in any MMO then say it and load up some video to back your position. Make a valid arguement. You fanbois saying he only fought newbies with no gear are just making more assumptions. Why dont you fanbois put your money where your mouth is and setup a day/time to meetup with the OP and prove his point is weak? Let the OP video himself owning you or you owning him. Anything else is just words that dont mean a thing. But if it makes you feel better, post more assumptions about how I really only played for 5 minutes and I want the graphics changed to cartoony WoW style graphics. I'm sure it will make you feel better.
You could tell just by playing beta weekends that the combat system is definitely one of the games glaring weak points.I was more interested in the mobs,atmosphere and theme than anything with this game.
Re-read your post, it's you that said you were only spamming 2 abilities and thought that "if that's all i'm gonna do", it's bad, and that you are willing to leave the game for a MMO which let you down but has good combat. I was just rephrasing. And no, i do not want to "meet up" with OP and show him who's boss. I'm not a kid anymore. I did not say anything about graphics, you're obviously exaggerating.
It's simple: if combat it's only what you care about, and you don't like it because it's not like in WoW or GW2, then this game is not for you, leave, that's the solution (LE: see the post below, exactly what i'm talking about). The game is not broke because someone runs around with top tier gear and full wheel, in an edited video, killing everyone in 3 shots and claiming they were all top tier players. The game is what it is, and changing it to be more like whatever other boring progression leet filled with garbage e-peen kids who ask for item level to do an instance or PvP won't do it any good. Most of us are here because we do not like that behavior, there's like every other game out there catering for you guys, why ruin this one.
And yet, WoW is more complex. I'm sure you went to elitist jerks and simcraft to work out your best WoW builds, but some people had to do the maths to work those out, and continue working them out as patches and expansions altered the metagame over the years. The maths behind TSW is much simpler than for WoW.
TSW - because it limits the number of active abilities to 7 - is actually very basic and very limited compared to WoW or GW2. That's just mathematical fact. If you take the WoW metagame, but only allow people to slot 7 skills, the simcraft rotations would be recalculated, and you would end up with some very tight, very basic little specs.
GW2's metagame is esports all the way. It's much more complex than both because they of their condition/boon and traits systems and due to the way classes can interact to create synergies in teamplay.
TSW does not have any classes, so once you find the optimal build for everyone you can create your own synergies.
With only 4 total debuff types (which also encompass CC) you don't need teamplay synergies at all, you can just create them yourself. Not to mention, if you notice how the TSW debuffs work on unit frames, you would realise that the interaction of different players on one target does not allow for anything more than 1 synergy per debuff type.
TSW is basic and limited. It disguises this by turning basic talent trees into a fancy looking wheel that make it seem like you have hundreds of abilities, when really all you have is 7 per role, with a lot of fluff thrown in.
In TSW you only need to know 2 things:
What is your level: QLx where x is your effective level
What is your spec: 7/7
Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.
Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.
Well I stopped playing Tera and will be playing TSW tomorrow, so why should I not be on this forum?
Just because I'm not a fanboy doesn't mean I won't play the game. I just play with an open, critical eye, rather than mindlessly adoring and flag-waving.
It's ok to be critical about the game you play, necessary even for the health of the game.
Yet you are saying that everyone not agreeing with you is slow, doing everything wrong etc. One does not have to be a "mindless fanboy" to get tired of mindless bashing and labeling.
tbh people who don't understand how the ability trees, stats and level system in TSW work are being slow, it's really not complicated. I'm not saying they are mentally deficient or anything, just that they are not thinking things through.
The best analogy I can think of is people not splitting up a restaurant dinner bill because they think it's too complicated or can't be bothered to divide by 4.
Most people, myself included, aren't "not understanding" the combat. We're "not liking it".
The game might chiefly be about questing, but combat is what 90% of players do 90% of the time when they're not questing, and at least half the quests involve combat to some extent, even if its dealing with agro while running to your destination.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Where the hell do you read that? It really sounds like you are inferring what you want.
All he's saying is poker = more complex than TSW. Which I would absolutely agree. Watch a game of professional poker. There's not only a lot of math involved, but there's an entirely 2ndary layer of psychology built on top of this.
Hell, I'm not a 'great' poker player, but I've managed to beat pretty good players by figuring out their playerstyle, and what the weaknesses / strengths of that are. I.E. I managed to win a game w/ some other devs, because I knew they were playing a purely logical game. So I spent a lot of the game playing illogically / chaoticly, and they had no clue how to handle that.
Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.
You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.
You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all. So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.
Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.
You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.
If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?
Notice something lacking from your assessment?
You aren't considering skill at all.
That says a considerable amount about the game.
I mean, counterclasses (counterspecs here) happen. But if you're correct, then you're rock and your enemy is scissors or paper.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
oh hey, I get that, I don't really like the combat either, but my preferences are not what I'm discussing here, I'll be playing TSW sort of like a point-and-click story game, with maybe a dash of owning large numbers of combat fanboys with my guild in Fusang.
I was just saying that those who say the combat and spec trees in TSW are complex and deep are actually wrong, much in the same way as one can be wrong about the R-squared of a statistical study - that it is a matter of fact that TSW is actually very simplistic and limited, not a matter of preference.
Why if people cant defend game they always starting to say crazy things, in what way GW cllone of Wow? OP never said TSW is bad game he just said and SHOWED, fights in game poor as no need in situational Spells like cc and only thing you need 2 fingers and once in a while hit 3rd button. as game not even finished after 7/3 it will be getting patches all the time for sure. And to other ppl who saying he is fighting with low "lvl" ppl - if ppl were in Close beta for months and had 4k+ its kinda stupid to say they are ungeared or in tank gear (yeah tank is what you want in pvp!) as he showed how Ungeared player owned in 3 hits in a link before. Sure most of players act like retards so in other hand maybe TSW designed for ppl who have troubles hitting even 2 buttons and moving mouse sametime.
Still good video good post just no need to hate OP only because he is trying to show problems in a game.
I left that out of my assessment, because I didn't need to know how skilled the player was. Their skill basically meant the difference between whether or not I ended a fight w/ most of my HP, or wounded. Either way, I had a self-heal to take care of that.
Hell, I'm not even the only one w/ this experience. There have been a number of videos / livestreams posted that all show the same thing. There just aren't enough counters, you know what your build is good at, and what it isn't. You can generally tell what another person is running by their health / weapons (or even kit, since your appearance changes depending on what you Q up as). A low damage spec is going to suck against a good healer, so unless you can down his HP pool in a few hits, you can't win it. A high damage spec can eat a healer alive np, as well as another DPS, but if they find a tank w/ more than double their HP, it's going to be a very tough fight. etc. You can try a more balanced spec as well, which might make it harder for you to determine the outcome of a fight, but generally I've found these don't do that well in this game's PvP.
And ya, it does say a lot about the combat =/
So 1 more person who knows everythg
saying OP got TOp gear AND he can't get HIM below 70%
PLS moreblahblah post video with your char 1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot" or really try to argue about topic here "complex of fight in TSW"
you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons. nothg else. you dont need any tactic you dont need cc.
Yeah I don't think Moreblahblah realises it, but what he just said was in effect that:
a) skill does not matter as combat is simplistic
b) the PVP is completely gear level driven