Don't need anything from the cash shop, people can claim it gives some magical advantage but in the end it really doesn't.
If people paying for some cosmetic stuff, boosters, etc that most can be aquired by just playing the game then fine by me. Money goes to ArenaNet so they can make more content, add more features, and overall improve the game then fine by me.
It goes to NCsoft and some trickles down to AN but only a certain percentage.
Link?
Are you pretending to know the ratio of income distribution to help support your argument or do you actually know how much ArenaNet will get?
no I just know how it works. The publishers take a large percentage out for supporting their game. I don't need a link take a few business classes and learn how publishing works.
those are included in mystic chests. Your answer was right infront of your face... next time do your own homework.
You got me here. I've never recieved any of those boosts or seen them before.
Are those boosts available for use in WvW?
I do not believe anything official has been said about their use in WvW, but I do know that people were able to use them in WvW during the beta weekend events. Considering it has been stated multiple times that WvW is not designed to be a level playing field, I would expect those boosts to apply in WvW. The only "fair" PvP is structured PvP and they do not work there, of course.
those are included in mystic chests. Your answer was right infront of your face... next time do your own homework.
You got me here. I've never recieved any of those boosts or seen them before.
Are those boosts available for use in WvW?
I do not believe anything official has been said about their use in WvW, but I do know that people were able to use them in WvW during the beta weekend events. Considering it has been stated multiple times that WvW is not designed to be a level playing field, I would expect those boosts to apply in WvW. The only "fair" PvP is structured PvP and they do not work there, of course.
I have trouble feeling pity for people that are bummed about the cash shop. I already felt like I was leveling too fast, why on earth would I spend money on an exp boost to level even faster? I'm steady working in a 20 page final for college and still managed to get 2 level 20s and a level 13 this weekend.
I actually went into BWE expecting to add money to the cash shop, but I looked and literally found nothing in there that was worth having. The only thing at this point I'll be spending money on is 3 more character slots, and that won't happen for a while. Hell, by the time I hit 80 and max crafting on just one character, I might not even have to spend real money to purchase those slots, considering how easy it was to make money just from 1-40. Everyone can spend their time griping that someone *gasp* is going to hit level 80 before them, but that was going to happen with or without cash shop exp boosts. I know that bit of logic escapes many, but I'll leave it there anyway.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
those are included in mystic chests. Your answer was right infront of your face... next time do your own homework.
You got me here. I've never recieved any of those boosts or seen them before.
Are those boosts available for use in WvW?
I do not believe anything official has been said about their use in WvW, but I do know that people were able to use them in WvW during the beta weekend events. Considering it has been stated multiple times that WvW is not designed to be a level playing field, I would expect those boosts to apply in WvW. The only "fair" PvP is structured PvP and they do not work there, of course.
Uncool. Very uncool.
Bear in mind that you can receive similar bonuses from guild through influence and research, as well as consumable items gained through cooking (no xp buffs, just stat buffs). It's not like cash shop is the only way to get buffs.
those are included in mystic chests. Your answer was right infront of your face... next time do your own homework.
You got me here. I've never recieved any of those boosts or seen them before.
Are those boosts available for use in WvW?
I do not believe anything official has been said about their use in WvW, but I do know that people were able to use them in WvW during the beta weekend events. Considering it has been stated multiple times that WvW is not designed to be a level playing field, I would expect those boosts to apply in WvW. The only "fair" PvP is structured PvP and they do not work there, of course.
Uncool. Very uncool.
Bear in mind that you can receive similar bonuses from guild through influence and research, as well as consumable items gained through cooking (no xp buffs, just stat buffs). It's not like cash shop is the only way to get buffs.
Grasping at straws...p2w obvious...milk the people for every penny.
Greed claims another industry....pretty sure that's all of em, the world can end now.
those are included in mystic chests. Your answer was right infront of your face... next time do your own homework.
You got me here. I've never recieved any of those boosts or seen them before.
Are those boosts available for use in WvW?
I do not believe anything official has been said about their use in WvW, but I do know that people were able to use them in WvW during the beta weekend events. Considering it has been stated multiple times that WvW is not designed to be a level playing field, I would expect those boosts to apply in WvW. The only "fair" PvP is structured PvP and they do not work there, of course.
Uncool. Very uncool.
Bear in mind that you can receive similar bonuses from guild through influence and research, as well as consumable items gained through cooking (no xp buffs, just stat buffs). It's not like cash shop is the only way to get buffs.
Nor is the point of this thread to start up the pay to win argument. It was simply calling attention to the monetization scheme of GW2 and calling out ArenaNet for touting how much 'better' a no sub model is, when in fact, the cash shop monetization is driven by just about everything in game and is far more aggressive in generating revenue than a sub model. The problem in pointing this out is it that is very well integrated into the game, which disguises it very well. Because of that, many people simply will not see it (or will refuse to see it).
Regardless, I am still very much looking forward to playing GW2 at release, primarily in WvW. The boosts can be countered through better organization. The only one I don't so much like is the run speed boost. That's a pretty significant advantage in WvW, but not enough to ruin it.
those are included in mystic chests. Your answer was right infront of your face... next time do your own homework.
Armor Bonus of 10%---Gets you nothing as there are skills that boost damage by more the 10%
Strength Bonus 10%---Gets you nothing as there as skills that reduce damage by more then 10%
Rqjuvenation Bonus---Gets you nothing as there are skills that can drain health from and and can be stacked as well as othere health degeneration skills.
Speed Bonus---This is used to run away when the first 3 do not work.
these thing do nothing for you in the end you may get 1-2% more out of them but that is not much. these iteams are not going to make a player out power another player with out them.
those are included in mystic chests. Your answer was right infront of your face... next time do your own homework.
You got me here. I've never recieved any of those boosts or seen them before.
Are those boosts available for use in WvW?
I do not believe anything official has been said about their use in WvW, but I do know that people were able to use them in WvW during the beta weekend events. Considering it has been stated multiple times that WvW is not designed to be a level playing field, I would expect those boosts to apply in WvW. The only "fair" PvP is structured PvP and they do not work there, of course.
Uncool. Very uncool.
Bear in mind that you can receive similar bonuses from guild through influence and research, as well as consumable items gained through cooking (no xp buffs, just stat buffs). It's not like cash shop is the only way to get buffs.
Do the Mystic Chest buffs stack with the Guild buffs/food buffs?
It has nothing to do with the game itself. While it's not everything that I expected based on what the developers have talked about, it is certainly worth the box price. I have already purchased my copy and look forward to playing in about a month.
What is bothering me is the cash shop, or Gem Store as it's called. The developers have been heavily playing on the whole "MMORPGs don't need a subscription fee and we're awesome because we don't have one!". Of course, it's been implied that all of the other MMORPGs with sub fees are greedy because it's not needed. Supposedly box sales alone are adequate. That changed to supplemented by a cosmetic and convenience cash shop. Alright, I can accept that. A few dollars here and there from people that appreciate the game. That's totally fair.
This past weekend the actual gem pricing and cash shop item pricing was revealed. It was significantly higher than many people were expecting as far as actual value per gem. The number of gems per $ is largely irrelevant, it's more what those gems can actually buy that creates the 'value' of the gems. This cash shop is designed to pull more money from the average player in a shorter time frame than a subscription could ever hope to accomplish. It's appalling greedy but extremely clever at the same time.
Here's why it's clever. They have successfully dissociated gold and gems from real money when they are all very much connected. There are TONS of people that don't understand that gem prices (in gold) are determined by the amount of gems that are being sold by people that have purchased them for real money. These people that say, "Well, you never even have to spend money on gems, I can just buy them with gold I get from playing.", really don't understand. First off, the cost of gems is going to skyrocket. How much gold do you think you're going to have to farm for me to give you $10 (or 800 gems)? Yeah, a whole lot. Second, if you purchase gems with gold, you are buying gems that someone purchased. Those gems are not being created for you, they were created for the person that paid real money for them. You are essentially driving gem sales by selling your time for gems, which were bought with real money. Now, there will be people that never use the cash shop and never purchase gems with gold or real money. However, if they ever purchase a dye or mini on the Trading Post, they just indirectly supported the Gem Store. It's quite likely that the dye or mini was purchased for gems.
Now lets get into the greedy part. They have a "magic black box" that the gems and gold go into for conversions. I put 800 gems in this magic black box and it gives me some amount of gold. I put 20 gold in this magic black box and it gives me some amount of gems. I would expect that gems were never taxed in this conversion, but I really have no way of knowing. I assume that market forces are driving the price change with some algorithm that is crafted well enough that it derives accurate prices from market pressure. I also expect that the market isn't being manipulated in which ever direction it needs to be to drive additional gem sales. Do I know any of this to be true? No, it all happens inside a "magic black box" that I can't see into.
I can't believe how many people have purchased gems during the last beta weekend. The game doesn't even come out for another month and I read about people spending hundreds of dollars on gems. That's a whole lot of months of subs that have been sold before the game even released for a non-subscription game. Now, yes, I know those are not actual subs, but I can assure you that the numbers make a sub game jealous. Subscription games include 30 days of free gametime, meaning they don't collect anything beyond the box price during the first month.
Now I have nothing against people being compensated for thier work. The developers should definitely be rewarded for creating a game that's definitely cooler than most that have come out in years. However, here's the real kicker. ArenaNet is owned by NCSoft. NCSoft is a publicly traded company. This means that people that are getting compensated for the developers work are the shareholders, not the developers. People that contributed nothing to the creative development of the game are the ones that are collecting the money you spend in the Gem Store. Buying gems does not support ArenaNet directly, it lines the pockets of investors. In that aspect, ArenaNet is no less greedy than Blizzard or Nexon. That last sentence does make me a bit sad, as I had really hoped for better from ArenaNet. All of the developer videos and comments over the years seemed to paint a different picture.
Oh well. I can play the game without purchasing gems. There are slight annoyances, such as not having access to the "full game" without deleting progress or purchasing additional character slots*. The locked bag slots I see every time I open my inventory. The constant Mystic Chest drops. Only the first is annoying, but I suppose I can select three classes I don't want to play. This got to be kind of long. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
* 5 character slots allows for all races, but not all class created simultaneously. It could go either way in whether or not one has "full access" to the game with the box. Both sides have merit.
TL;DR - Read it, it's interesting. If you can't be bothered, please don't bother to reply either. Thanks
And yet not a damn thing on the gem store is relevant to my needs or wants. I'll get along fine without ever playing a damn cent to the store and it doesnt effect me in the slightest if someone with a ton of disposable income comes along and drops a few K's on gems because it will not change my playstyle.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
yea .. i definitely hate the idea of artificially inflating the economy .. id much rather the people buying gold get ripped off by botters tbh ... which leads me to my point :
Steadert. Yes Sir! I have a doubt.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
And yet not a damn thing on the gem store is relevant to my needs or wants. I'll get along fine without ever playing a damn cent to the store and it doesnt effect me in the slightest if someone with a ton of disposable income comes along and drops a few K's on gems because it will not change my playstyle.
End of Discussion.
When the world revolves around you, it will entitle you to end any discussion you like. Until then, I believe you missed the point. The intent was to call out ArenaNet for building a ton of customer good will on the whole "We don't charge a sub like those other (greedy) games. It's not necessary." line, when in reality, they have built a game that heavily drives a cash shop. Pretty much anything you do drives demand for gems and I'm going to go out a limb and guess that it's by design. Now, there's nothing wrong with a company trying to make money. There is something wrong with a company misleading people into thinking they are "better" than the competition when the only difference is that they've created a far more creative and disguised way of separating customers from their money.
It is so hard to judge at this point in my opinion.
Until we see how it plays out in live it is hard to say whether it will play a large factor or not.
I'm not thrilled about some of their options but at the same time can't call down the "doom squad" either.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It has nothing to do with the game itself. While it's not everything that I expected based on what the developers have talked about, it is certainly worth the box price. I have already purchased my copy and look forward to playing in about a month.
What is bothering me is the cash shop, or Gem Store as it's called. The developers have been heavily playing on the whole "MMORPGs don't need a subscription fee and we're awesome because we don't have one!". Of course, it's been implied that all of the other MMORPGs with sub fees are greedy because it's not needed. Supposedly box sales alone are adequate. That changed to supplemented by a cosmetic and convenience cash shop. Alright, I can accept that. A few dollars here and there from people that appreciate the game. That's totally fair.
This past weekend the actual gem pricing and cash shop item pricing was revealed. It was significantly higher than many people were expecting as far as actual value per gem. The number of gems per $ is largely irrelevant, it's more what those gems can actually buy that creates the 'value' of the gems. This cash shop is designed to pull more money from the average player in a shorter time frame than a subscription could ever hope to accomplish. It's appalling greedy but extremely clever at the same time.
Here's why it's clever. They have successfully dissociated gold and gems from real money when they are all very much connected. There are TONS of people that don't understand that gem prices (in gold) are determined by the amount of gems that are being sold by people that have purchased them for real money. These people that say, "Well, you never even have to spend money on gems, I can just buy them with gold I get from playing.", really don't understand. First off, the cost of gems is going to skyrocket. How much gold do you think you're going to have to farm for me to give you $10 (or 800 gems)? Yeah, a whole lot. Second, if you purchase gems with gold, you are buying gems that someone purchased. Those gems are not being created for you, they were created for the person that paid real money for them. You are essentially driving gem sales by selling your time for gems, which were bought with real money. Now, there will be people that never use the cash shop and never purchase gems with gold or real money. However, if they ever purchase a dye or mini on the Trading Post, they just indirectly supported the Gem Store. It's quite likely that the dye or mini was purchased for gems.
Now lets get into the greedy part. They have a "magic black box" that the gems and gold go into for conversions. I put 800 gems in this magic black box and it gives me some amount of gold. I put 20 gold in this magic black box and it gives me some amount of gems. I would expect that gems were never taxed in this conversion, but I really have no way of knowing. I assume that market forces are driving the price change with some algorithm that is crafted well enough that it derives accurate prices from market pressure. I also expect that the market isn't being manipulated in which ever direction it needs to be to drive additional gem sales. Do I know any of this to be true? No, it all happens inside a "magic black box" that I can't see into.
I can't believe how many people have purchased gems during the last beta weekend. The game doesn't even come out for another month and I read about people spending hundreds of dollars on gems. That's a whole lot of months of subs that have been sold before the game even released for a non-subscription game. Now, yes, I know those are not actual subs, but I can assure you that the numbers make a sub game jealous. Subscription games include 30 days of free gametime, meaning they don't collect anything beyond the box price during the first month.
Now I have nothing against people being compensated for thier work. The developers should definitely be rewarded for creating a game that's definitely cooler than most that have come out in years. However, here's the real kicker. ArenaNet is owned by NCSoft. NCSoft is a publicly traded company. This means that people that are getting compensated for the developers work are the shareholders, not the developers. People that contributed nothing to the creative development of the game are the ones that are collecting the money you spend in the Gem Store. Buying gems does not support ArenaNet directly, it lines the pockets of investors. In that aspect, ArenaNet is no less greedy than Blizzard or Nexon. That last sentence does make me a bit sad, as I had really hoped for better from ArenaNet. All of the developer videos and comments over the years seemed to paint a different picture.
Oh well. I can play the game without purchasing gems. There are slight annoyances, such as not having access to the "full game" without deleting progress or purchasing additional character slots*. The locked bag slots I see every time I open my inventory. The constant Mystic Chest drops. Only the first is annoying, but I suppose I can select three classes I don't want to play. This got to be kind of long. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
* 5 character slots allows for all races, but not all class created simultaneously. It could go either way in whether or not one has "full access" to the game with the box. Both sides have merit.
TL;DR - Read it, it's interesting. If you can't be bothered, please don't bother to reply either. Thanks
I read your whole thing,....the WHOLE thing....and it's nothing but a bunch of bull where you're complaining that you (individually) cannot do this or that, has to grind to get gems for stuff because they're expensive and yada yada.
1) Gems can be bought with Coin just as PLEX can be bought with $$ in EVE Online. This model is currently a circus-mirror to that of EVE's system: Similar but not 100% the same. The prices of Coin for Gems and vise-versa is player controlled based on who's buying what. This is the same for EVE in that the prices of PLEX for $$ is directly related to player buying one or the other. Yes, I understand that for PLEX it's sold directly on the Auction system where as for GW2 Gem's are done in more general without specific buy/sell orders. HOWEVER, the price fluctuations of GEMs for Gold and Gold for GEMs are shown there with charts for how many are bought, highest price, their patterns, so on. The group dynamic stats are there still.
2) The game is fully accessable from top to bottom without ever needing to pay a single $ outside the initial purchase. Everything that can be purchased with the GEM's are either fluff (dress cloth items, dyes, mini-pets, etc.), convience items ( XP boosts, Karma boosts, Kill streak boosts, etc.) and game expansion items (Bank slots, character bag slots, # of character slots, and server transfers). None of these things are required to enjoy the entire game itself. Most of the items are broken down below:
Dye Pack: Contains 7 random dyes. These drop in the world too, though only 1 at a time (or 2 if you're lucky). There's even some that are supposedly craftable through a profession (though need confirmation on this?).
Mystic Key: Opens a Mystic Chest. Both chest and keys drop in the world as well. Best yet, chests have a 50/50 chance of getting another key. But, chests contain 1x random boost, 3x Transmutation pots, and 1x item (key, gathering tool, portable bank, salvage kit, repair kit).
Box-O'-Fun: Last 5 minutes and gives random effects to players. These range from color change to size change. Also has snowballs and fireworks. All for fun, nothing to be anything play-related. These are essentially 4th of July firework boxes.
Mini-pets: Set of 3 random pets. These are nothing more than show items. Sure, there are Pokemon collectors out there that HAVE to have them all, but that's their thing. I'm not sure if they're findable in the game's world or not (heard both yes and no), but they can be sold on the Auction System to other players. So, by player transaction someone can get these. But again, it's a status/show item only.
Boosts: These help boost a player's progress in the game. Karma, Crafting, Experience, and Killstreak are ALL just ways to speed up for someone. It doesn't effect any other player in the game at ALL if they do a boost. In fact, I find these are a bit pointless as with GW2 the game's progress is so enjoyable that is shouldn't be fast past by. Now, the only questionable boost there is would be Magical Find Boost which increases chance to find rare loot for 1 hr. But, what is a 50% boost of a questionable number? 50% of 2% is 1%, so essentially you now have a 3% chance for that 1hr over everyone else who has 2%.
World (i.e. Server) Transfer: This is nothing new in any MMORPG that these cost. Only in the dead/dying MMO's, or the ones' that found new tech, are they offering these free of charge. And, they're limited by time so no abusing the system for the sake of WvWvW.
Bank Slot: Well, to farm gold to buy Gems for these is no different than farming gold to get new bank slots in WoW or any other game that offers those kind of expansions. Though, these are flat expansion of 30, where as in the same example of WoW you had to not only buy the slot, but then provide sizable bags in the slot to make it viable (a 4 slot bag in a bank slot is...ya).
Character Slot: Players are given 5x slots to start with. Even as an alt-aholic, this is plenty enough. You can buy more if you need more, but only those that want 1 of EVERY class will ever need or want more. However, by the time you fill up the default 5 with Level 80's, you'll have farmed more than enough gold to buy more slots.
Style Items: These are nothing more than items for show. Not that great as the race clothing looks far better than those items that are there. Even the Transmutation stones that allow item blending drop in the world and some come from Mystic Chests.
3) Out of all the points I made, the most important is this: If players were not able to buy gold coin directly from the developers, they'd buy it from the stereotypical Chinese Gold Sellers. So, which is better to have the money go to: Developers and the company making the game to continue it's funding, or backhanded, back-alley gold sellers who gain money from cheating and stealing from players?
No one ever said or implied that Arenanet/NCSoft don't intend to make a lot of money off of GW2. This isn't some altruistic effort to spend maybe $100 Million dollars to provide a massive MMO to everyone who wants to play it and never pay anything beyond the box price. It's not purely a money grab, but profitability is huge part of the equation, even if for many developers it's just about providing the money needed to pay their salaries, so they can keep doing a job they love, while providing playings with an incredible game to play.
What's great about GW2 is that people who love AAA MMOs, but either can't afford a sub fee, or hate having to constantly justify a sub fee, can indeed buy GW2 for the box price and never pay another dime. They can continue to play the content they purchased for the life time of the game. They will also get free content updates, along with the knowledge that the game is not designed to only be enjoyable for those who spend money in the cash shop, nor is it "pay to win".
People who do have money they are willing and eager to spend have an outlet to do so. They will get some value for that investment, with out ruining the game for those who don't also invest beyond the box price. Along with box sales, the gem shop will provide important revenue to ensure that the game continues to maintain it's full force of developers, continues to develop free content for everyone, along with paid expansions down the road. They may indeed be subsidizing the play experience of those who never pay a dime beyond the box price, but everyone benefits.
I've been saying for months now that I expect GW2 to make more money from the gem store than from box sales, by the end of year one. That's a very good thing for everyone that plays and enjoys GW2. It's not blind greed. It's a viable business model that funds the development of a massive, kick ass game!
I'm very impressed with the balance the gem store strikes. I can see value there for spending my cash on gems. I can also see that if my finances nose-dived tomorrow, I could continue to play the game with no cash shop purchases and still enjoy the experience just as much. If they can maintain that, this will be the business model the rest of the genre is likely to adopt and provides an example of how to do so, with out alienating players who pay less. The side bonus is that kids or adults who can't spare the cash can still enjoy a AAA MMO experience for nothing beyond the box price!
Nothing about this business model should bother anyone. It's a fair system. It's a system that begs you to support the game with additional expenditures, if you actually find the game worth playing. However, if you are broke, or cheap, or would rather just let someone else pay for your entertainment, that's a very viable option as well.
I plan of buying $10-$20 a month on Gems in order to support the game. I once bought a life time sub for $200 (LotRO), so it isn't hard for me to understand why someone might spend $200+ on an initial trove of gems. Also, IMO, the DDE and CEs are pretty dumb for GW2, so people who might normally buy a CE might be better off buying $20 to $90 in gems instead, making their own custom digital CE with the gems they purchase.
Someone can spend a couple hundred a month on the gem shop, it won't bother me. I may find it foolish, but I appreciate the contribution they will be making to ensure that the game development remains strong after launch.
I will admit that after this weekend and how fast I went through about $15 in gems, many people willing to open their wallets will need to be careful with what they spend. However, there are also people who drop $100s on silly Facebook browser games a month. IMO, if you are going to drop that amount on a game, it might as well be a game worth playing! I just appreciate that if I decide not to spend any cash in a given month, I can still enjoy the heck out of the game.
TLDR
NCSoft/Arenanet have a Buy to Play Plus Cash Shop business model for the game. They want to make money. They hope to make more money with this model than NCSoft makes on their sub games. The Cash Shop is balanced and benevolent. There is no Pay to Win, or "Pay in order to Enjoy" elements here. The shop offers value for those who buy, but nothing is indispensible for one's enjoyment of the game.
If you like the game and want healthy ongoing development, you should really consider buying gems, when you can, in order to support the game. I personally plan on spending about what I would on a sub game each month, while appreciating that I can stop buying gems and still continue playing the game, if need be.
No one should resent those that spend a lot of money on the game. They pay for ongoing development to expand a game you enjoy playing. The more revenue the game earns, the bigger and faster the expansion to the game experience. It's a win-win, for big spenders, the spend thrift and everyone in between!
It has nothing to do with the game itself. While it's not everything that I expected based on what the developers have talked about, it is certainly worth the box price. I have already purchased my copy and look forward to playing in about a month.
What is bothering me is the cash shop, or Gem Store as it's called. The developers have been heavily playing on the whole "MMORPGs don't need a subscription fee and we're awesome because we don't have one!". Of course, it's been implied that all of the other MMORPGs with sub fees are greedy because it's not needed. Supposedly box sales alone are adequate. That changed to supplemented by a cosmetic and convenience cash shop. Alright, I can accept that. A few dollars here and there from people that appreciate the game. That's totally fair.
This past weekend the actual gem pricing and cash shop item pricing was revealed. It was significantly higher than many people were expecting as far as actual value per gem. The number of gems per $ is largely irrelevant, it's more what those gems can actually buy that creates the 'value' of the gems. This cash shop is designed to pull more money from the average player in a shorter time frame than a subscription could ever hope to accomplish. It's appalling greedy but extremely clever at the same time.
Here's why it's clever. They have successfully dissociated gold and gems from real money when they are all very much connected. There are TONS of people that don't understand that gem prices (in gold) are determined by the amount of gems that are being sold by people that have purchased them for real money. These people that say, "Well, you never even have to spend money on gems, I can just buy them with gold I get from playing.", really don't understand. First off, the cost of gems is going to skyrocket. How much gold do you think you're going to have to farm for me to give you $10 (or 800 gems)? Yeah, a whole lot. Second, if you purchase gems with gold, you are buying gems that someone purchased. Those gems are not being created for you, they were created for the person that paid real money for them. You are essentially driving gem sales by selling your time for gems, which were bought with real money. Now, there will be people that never use the cash shop and never purchase gems with gold or real money. However, if they ever purchase a dye or mini on the Trading Post, they just indirectly supported the Gem Store. It's quite likely that the dye or mini was purchased for gems.
Now lets get into the greedy part. They have a "magic black box" that the gems and gold go into for conversions. I put 800 gems in this magic black box and it gives me some amount of gold. I put 20 gold in this magic black box and it gives me some amount of gems. I would expect that gems were never taxed in this conversion, but I really have no way of knowing. I assume that market forces are driving the price change with some algorithm that is crafted well enough that it derives accurate prices from market pressure. I also expect that the market isn't being manipulated in which ever direction it needs to be to drive additional gem sales. Do I know any of this to be true? No, it all happens inside a "magic black box" that I can't see into.
I can't believe how many people have purchased gems during the last beta weekend. The game doesn't even come out for another month and I read about people spending hundreds of dollars on gems. That's a whole lot of months of subs that have been sold before the game even released for a non-subscription game. Now, yes, I know those are not actual subs, but I can assure you that the numbers make a sub game jealous. Subscription games include 30 days of free gametime, meaning they don't collect anything beyond the box price during the first month.
Now I have nothing against people being compensated for thier work. The developers should definitely be rewarded for creating a game that's definitely cooler than most that have come out in years. However, here's the real kicker. ArenaNet is owned by NCSoft. NCSoft is a publicly traded company. This means that people that are getting compensated for the developers work are the shareholders, not the developers. People that contributed nothing to the creative development of the game are the ones that are collecting the money you spend in the Gem Store. Buying gems does not support ArenaNet directly, it lines the pockets of investors. In that aspect, ArenaNet is no less greedy than Blizzard or Nexon. That last sentence does make me a bit sad, as I had really hoped for better from ArenaNet. All of the developer videos and comments over the years seemed to paint a different picture.
Oh well. I can play the game without purchasing gems. There are slight annoyances, such as not having access to the "full game" without deleting progress or purchasing additional character slots*. The locked bag slots I see every time I open my inventory. The constant Mystic Chest drops. Only the first is annoying, but I suppose I can select three classes I don't want to play. This got to be kind of long. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
* 5 character slots allows for all races, but not all class created simultaneously. It could go either way in whether or not one has "full access" to the game with the box. Both sides have merit.
TL;DR - Read it, it's interesting. If you can't be bothered, please don't bother to reply either. Thanks
There is a reason they are doing the cash shop model...it produces more money. Pay money or get out. It forces you to pay pretty much. Anyone who doesnt believe it is ignorant. You may not see it yet but in a few months you will.
[mod edit]
All games are doing this now, wether it be gold buying or actual in game items....and if you don't ever have to buy this stuff to compete and gain an advantage why would anyone ever buy it?
3) Out of all the points I made, the most important is this: If players were not able to buy gold coin directly from the developers, they'd buy it from the stereotypical Chinese Gold Sellers.
I find it rather amusing that some people clearly still haven't grasped the concept of the capitalist system after all of this time. Investors don't fund games for the fun of it...they fund them to make money. Be grateful that GW2's cash shop is limited to cosmetic and convenience items, unlike so many other cash shops. All of these predictions of doom and gloom by other posters regarding the supposed massive future shift coming to the cash shop is also quite funny, considering they've clearly never played GW1 and experienced its cash shop that has been in existence for years. The fact of the matter is that you are in NO way whatsoever forced to use the cash shop in order to stay competitive. If you want an extra character slot then that is your prerogative. We didn't receive enough slots for all character classes in GW1, so what has changed? I hardly think that handing over a little bit of cash for an extra character slot or something of the sort in future is going to break the bank, or compare to the guaranteed $15/month I'd have to fork out for most subscription MMO's.
OP, read all you post. I must say I accept your opinion.
1) Yes it is stupid how a group of people do their work and get paid, and if they did good work, someone else gets the profit. However, you have to remember, that these people got money in the first place then there was nothing to sell yet. Its like Bioware Austin - those people are fired now and they say "ohmygod its so bad that people lose their jobs" - those people shouldnt have had the job in the first place! SWTOR sucked and they had to cut their staff, but this staff already got paid over the course of the game development... for nothing! For not yet released game that was a gambit.
So it goes. If it fails, worker still got paid for his work, even though his work sucked (argueably maybe his didnt, but someone else's sucked and screwed his work, but generally we can say that its his). Investor takes the hit. If it succeeds, worker still got paid, all he gets maybe is that he wont have to look for another place for employment. Investor gets the benefits.
Is this good? I think not. I'd rather have things go naturally - like, for example, at Riot or Mohjang etc. Make small game with funds you have, show it to public, get some money, make better game, get some more money, make even better game. Then you get the profits an you risk money you earned yourself. This promotes that money only goes into the hands of someone who can actually deliver the product, unlike what happened with SWTOR which was a company great at single player game was tasked at making and MMO.
2) You say that its greedy to replace sub with cash shop. You will be suprised to know that The Secret World has BOTH! Fucking cash shop in a subscription based game. After i learned that, i am kinda okay with cash shop in my GW2. You wanna know something else? There is cash - ONLY shop in subscription game! Meet World of Warcraft! Like, in GW2, you can get your minipet with gold coins. In WoW, you can only get your mount/pet from cash shop by paying cash. Period. No way to buy it with gold.
PS: Overall, i'd agree with your points but i'd say i dont agree that this is the main problem or quirk or negative point here. The main negative point for me is that they're lying to you. Or tricking you. Dunno what is the best word to use here.
You see, they say "GW2 doesnt have subscriptions and thats why it has no grind like WoW does", "GW2 doesnt need subscription and can go on box sales alone", "GW2 doesnt have to make you play to be profitable like WoW does". This is a flat out lie.
What is an MMO? Its a product and a service. First, you need to pay the developers of client and server software. Then, you need to pay for servers and personell that supports it, plus fix balance and adds new features to software (we can ignore bugs, since bug fixing is supposed to be free of charge, since you already paid for the software).
So if in any way you are told you dont have to pay for one of those you are lied to. This means either:
- the cost is included in the other one (as there is no FREE delivery, there is only delivery included in product cost).
- the cost will be extracted from you using other methods
And this is what i dont like. I dont like them not being fair with me. I totally understand that it is going to continue to be like that, because thats how marketing works, thats how they manipulate people into spending more money, but i dislike the idea of tricking and lying to people.
Armor Bonus of 10%---Gets you nothing as there are skills that boost damage by more the 10%
Strength Bonus 10%---Gets you nothing as there as skills that reduce damage by more then 10%
Rqjuvenation Bonus---Gets you nothing as there are skills that can drain health from and and can be stacked as well as othere health degeneration skills.
Speed Bonus---This is used to run away when the first 3 do not work.
these thing do nothing for you in the end you may get 1-2% more out of them but that is not much. these iteams are not going to make a player out power another player with out them.
You can buy armor and stregnth bonuses? Does this work in WvWvW?
Out power? What percent will?
Way not cool.... So if a guy kills me with 1% HP left, I have to ask myself was he using a strength bonus? Really?
2) You say that its greedy to replace sub with cash shop. You will be suprised to know that The Secret World has BOTH! Fucking cash shop in a subscription based game. After i learned that, i am kinda okay with cash shop in my GW2.
Don't mention TSW's cash (clothing) shop in the same paragraph as GW2's cash shop. The most hardened detractor of Funcom and/or TSW knows they are two very different things.
Fucom has said that "We will not sell power." There are no convenience items, and you can not convert cash to gold in the TSW cash shop.
Comments
You got me here. I've never recieved any of those boosts or seen them before.
Are those boosts available for use in WvW?
Does anyone have a link to what is available in the cash shop?
"The locked bag slots I see every time I open my inventory." Do you have to buy bag slots even?? shessh
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
lol awesome argument there bud.
I do not believe anything official has been said about their use in WvW, but I do know that people were able to use them in WvW during the beta weekend events. Considering it has been stated multiple times that WvW is not designed to be a level playing field, I would expect those boosts to apply in WvW. The only "fair" PvP is structured PvP and they do not work there, of course.
Uncool. Very uncool.
I have trouble feeling pity for people that are bummed about the cash shop. I already felt like I was leveling too fast, why on earth would I spend money on an exp boost to level even faster? I'm steady working in a 20 page final for college and still managed to get 2 level 20s and a level 13 this weekend.
I actually went into BWE expecting to add money to the cash shop, but I looked and literally found nothing in there that was worth having. The only thing at this point I'll be spending money on is 3 more character slots, and that won't happen for a while. Hell, by the time I hit 80 and max crafting on just one character, I might not even have to spend real money to purchase those slots, considering how easy it was to make money just from 1-40. Everyone can spend their time griping that someone *gasp* is going to hit level 80 before them, but that was going to happen with or without cash shop exp boosts. I know that bit of logic escapes many, but I'll leave it there anyway.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Bear in mind that you can receive similar bonuses from guild through influence and research, as well as consumable items gained through cooking (no xp buffs, just stat buffs). It's not like cash shop is the only way to get buffs.
Grasping at straws...p2w obvious...milk the people for every penny.
Greed claims another industry....pretty sure that's all of em, the world can end now.
Hope I'm an elf in my next life.
Nor is the point of this thread to start up the pay to win argument. It was simply calling attention to the monetization scheme of GW2 and calling out ArenaNet for touting how much 'better' a no sub model is, when in fact, the cash shop monetization is driven by just about everything in game and is far more aggressive in generating revenue than a sub model. The problem in pointing this out is it that is very well integrated into the game, which disguises it very well. Because of that, many people simply will not see it (or will refuse to see it).
Regardless, I am still very much looking forward to playing GW2 at release, primarily in WvW. The boosts can be countered through better organization. The only one I don't so much like is the run speed boost. That's a pretty significant advantage in WvW, but not enough to ruin it.
Armor Bonus of 10%---Gets you nothing as there are skills that boost damage by more the 10%
Strength Bonus 10%---Gets you nothing as there as skills that reduce damage by more then 10%
Rqjuvenation Bonus---Gets you nothing as there are skills that can drain health from and and can be stacked as well as othere health degeneration skills.
Speed Bonus---This is used to run away when the first 3 do not work.
these thing do nothing for you in the end you may get 1-2% more out of them but that is not much. these iteams are not going to make a player out power another player with out them.
Do the Mystic Chest buffs stack with the Guild buffs/food buffs?
And yet not a damn thing on the gem store is relevant to my needs or wants. I'll get along fine without ever playing a damn cent to the store and it doesnt effect me in the slightest if someone with a ton of disposable income comes along and drops a few K's on gems because it will not change my playstyle.
End of Discussion.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
yea .. i definitely hate the idea of artificially inflating the economy .. id much rather the people buying gold get ripped off by botters tbh ... which leads me to my point :
Steadert.
Yes Sir!
I have a doubt.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
When the world revolves around you, it will entitle you to end any discussion you like. Until then, I believe you missed the point. The intent was to call out ArenaNet for building a ton of customer good will on the whole "We don't charge a sub like those other (greedy) games. It's not necessary." line, when in reality, they have built a game that heavily drives a cash shop. Pretty much anything you do drives demand for gems and I'm going to go out a limb and guess that it's by design. Now, there's nothing wrong with a company trying to make money. There is something wrong with a company misleading people into thinking they are "better" than the competition when the only difference is that they've created a far more creative and disguised way of separating customers from their money.
It is so hard to judge at this point in my opinion.
Until we see how it plays out in live it is hard to say whether it will play a large factor or not.
I'm not thrilled about some of their options but at the same time can't call down the "doom squad" either.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I read your whole thing,....the WHOLE thing....and it's nothing but a bunch of bull where you're complaining that you (individually) cannot do this or that, has to grind to get gems for stuff because they're expensive and yada yada.
1) Gems can be bought with Coin just as PLEX can be bought with $$ in EVE Online. This model is currently a circus-mirror to that of EVE's system: Similar but not 100% the same. The prices of Coin for Gems and vise-versa is player controlled based on who's buying what. This is the same for EVE in that the prices of PLEX for $$ is directly related to player buying one or the other. Yes, I understand that for PLEX it's sold directly on the Auction system where as for GW2 Gem's are done in more general without specific buy/sell orders. HOWEVER, the price fluctuations of GEMs for Gold and Gold for GEMs are shown there with charts for how many are bought, highest price, their patterns, so on. The group dynamic stats are there still.
2) The game is fully accessable from top to bottom without ever needing to pay a single $ outside the initial purchase. Everything that can be purchased with the GEM's are either fluff (dress cloth items, dyes, mini-pets, etc.), convience items ( XP boosts, Karma boosts, Kill streak boosts, etc.) and game expansion items (Bank slots, character bag slots, # of character slots, and server transfers). None of these things are required to enjoy the entire game itself. Most of the items are broken down below:
No one ever said or implied that Arenanet/NCSoft don't intend to make a lot of money off of GW2. This isn't some altruistic effort to spend maybe $100 Million dollars to provide a massive MMO to everyone who wants to play it and never pay anything beyond the box price. It's not purely a money grab, but profitability is huge part of the equation, even if for many developers it's just about providing the money needed to pay their salaries, so they can keep doing a job they love, while providing playings with an incredible game to play.
What's great about GW2 is that people who love AAA MMOs, but either can't afford a sub fee, or hate having to constantly justify a sub fee, can indeed buy GW2 for the box price and never pay another dime. They can continue to play the content they purchased for the life time of the game. They will also get free content updates, along with the knowledge that the game is not designed to only be enjoyable for those who spend money in the cash shop, nor is it "pay to win".
People who do have money they are willing and eager to spend have an outlet to do so. They will get some value for that investment, with out ruining the game for those who don't also invest beyond the box price. Along with box sales, the gem shop will provide important revenue to ensure that the game continues to maintain it's full force of developers, continues to develop free content for everyone, along with paid expansions down the road. They may indeed be subsidizing the play experience of those who never pay a dime beyond the box price, but everyone benefits.
I've been saying for months now that I expect GW2 to make more money from the gem store than from box sales, by the end of year one. That's a very good thing for everyone that plays and enjoys GW2. It's not blind greed. It's a viable business model that funds the development of a massive, kick ass game!
I'm very impressed with the balance the gem store strikes. I can see value there for spending my cash on gems. I can also see that if my finances nose-dived tomorrow, I could continue to play the game with no cash shop purchases and still enjoy the experience just as much. If they can maintain that, this will be the business model the rest of the genre is likely to adopt and provides an example of how to do so, with out alienating players who pay less. The side bonus is that kids or adults who can't spare the cash can still enjoy a AAA MMO experience for nothing beyond the box price!
Nothing about this business model should bother anyone. It's a fair system. It's a system that begs you to support the game with additional expenditures, if you actually find the game worth playing. However, if you are broke, or cheap, or would rather just let someone else pay for your entertainment, that's a very viable option as well.
I plan of buying $10-$20 a month on Gems in order to support the game. I once bought a life time sub for $200 (LotRO), so it isn't hard for me to understand why someone might spend $200+ on an initial trove of gems. Also, IMO, the DDE and CEs are pretty dumb for GW2, so people who might normally buy a CE might be better off buying $20 to $90 in gems instead, making their own custom digital CE with the gems they purchase.
Someone can spend a couple hundred a month on the gem shop, it won't bother me. I may find it foolish, but I appreciate the contribution they will be making to ensure that the game development remains strong after launch.
I will admit that after this weekend and how fast I went through about $15 in gems, many people willing to open their wallets will need to be careful with what they spend. However, there are also people who drop $100s on silly Facebook browser games a month. IMO, if you are going to drop that amount on a game, it might as well be a game worth playing! I just appreciate that if I decide not to spend any cash in a given month, I can still enjoy the heck out of the game.
TLDR
NCSoft/Arenanet have a Buy to Play Plus Cash Shop business model for the game. They want to make money. They hope to make more money with this model than NCSoft makes on their sub games. The Cash Shop is balanced and benevolent. There is no Pay to Win, or "Pay in order to Enjoy" elements here. The shop offers value for those who buy, but nothing is indispensible for one's enjoyment of the game.
If you like the game and want healthy ongoing development, you should really consider buying gems, when you can, in order to support the game. I personally plan on spending about what I would on a sub game each month, while appreciating that I can stop buying gems and still continue playing the game, if need be.
No one should resent those that spend a lot of money on the game. They pay for ongoing development to expand a game you enjoy playing. The more revenue the game earns, the bigger and faster the expansion to the game experience. It's a win-win, for big spenders, the spend thrift and everyone in between!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Smart post. Too smart for most of us to write.
Some games are not. I'm playing one.
Still doesn't make it right.
I find it rather amusing that some people clearly still haven't grasped the concept of the capitalist system after all of this time. Investors don't fund games for the fun of it...they fund them to make money. Be grateful that GW2's cash shop is limited to cosmetic and convenience items, unlike so many other cash shops. All of these predictions of doom and gloom by other posters regarding the supposed massive future shift coming to the cash shop is also quite funny, considering they've clearly never played GW1 and experienced its cash shop that has been in existence for years. The fact of the matter is that you are in NO way whatsoever forced to use the cash shop in order to stay competitive. If you want an extra character slot then that is your prerogative. We didn't receive enough slots for all character classes in GW1, so what has changed? I hardly think that handing over a little bit of cash for an extra character slot or something of the sort in future is going to break the bank, or compare to the guaranteed $15/month I'd have to fork out for most subscription MMO's.
OP, read all you post. I must say I accept your opinion.
1) Yes it is stupid how a group of people do their work and get paid, and if they did good work, someone else gets the profit. However, you have to remember, that these people got money in the first place then there was nothing to sell yet. Its like Bioware Austin - those people are fired now and they say "ohmygod its so bad that people lose their jobs" - those people shouldnt have had the job in the first place! SWTOR sucked and they had to cut their staff, but this staff already got paid over the course of the game development... for nothing! For not yet released game that was a gambit.
So it goes. If it fails, worker still got paid for his work, even though his work sucked (argueably maybe his didnt, but someone else's sucked and screwed his work, but generally we can say that its his). Investor takes the hit. If it succeeds, worker still got paid, all he gets maybe is that he wont have to look for another place for employment. Investor gets the benefits.
Is this good? I think not. I'd rather have things go naturally - like, for example, at Riot or Mohjang etc. Make small game with funds you have, show it to public, get some money, make better game, get some more money, make even better game. Then you get the profits an you risk money you earned yourself. This promotes that money only goes into the hands of someone who can actually deliver the product, unlike what happened with SWTOR which was a company great at single player game was tasked at making and MMO.
2) You say that its greedy to replace sub with cash shop. You will be suprised to know that The Secret World has BOTH! Fucking cash shop in a subscription based game. After i learned that, i am kinda okay with cash shop in my GW2. You wanna know something else? There is cash - ONLY shop in subscription game! Meet World of Warcraft! Like, in GW2, you can get your minipet with gold coins. In WoW, you can only get your mount/pet from cash shop by paying cash. Period. No way to buy it with gold.
PS: Overall, i'd agree with your points but i'd say i dont agree that this is the main problem or quirk or negative point here. The main negative point for me is that they're lying to you. Or tricking you. Dunno what is the best word to use here.
You see, they say "GW2 doesnt have subscriptions and thats why it has no grind like WoW does", "GW2 doesnt need subscription and can go on box sales alone", "GW2 doesnt have to make you play to be profitable like WoW does". This is a flat out lie.
What is an MMO? Its a product and a service. First, you need to pay the developers of client and server software. Then, you need to pay for servers and personell that supports it, plus fix balance and adds new features to software (we can ignore bugs, since bug fixing is supposed to be free of charge, since you already paid for the software).
So if in any way you are told you dont have to pay for one of those you are lied to. This means either:
- the cost is included in the other one (as there is no FREE delivery, there is only delivery included in product cost).
- the cost will be extracted from you using other methods
And this is what i dont like. I dont like them not being fair with me. I totally understand that it is going to continue to be like that, because thats how marketing works, thats how they manipulate people into spending more money, but i dislike the idea of tricking and lying to people.
You can buy armor and stregnth bonuses? Does this work in WvWvW?
Out power? What percent will?
Way not cool.... So if a guy kills me with 1% HP left, I have to ask myself was he using a strength bonus? Really?
Don't mention TSW's cash (clothing) shop in the same paragraph as GW2's cash shop. The most hardened detractor of Funcom and/or TSW knows they are two very different things.
Fucom has said that "We will not sell power." There are no convenience items, and you can not convert cash to gold in the TSW cash shop.
Compare this for a moment with World of Warcraft yes.
WoW - 12.99 euro a month
GW2 - 00,00 a month
WoW - 9 months paying for the same DragonSoul raid lolz
GW2 - 1 year, buy an Expansion for 40 / 55 euro ?
WoW 9x12.99= 116 euro + Expansion 55 euro = 171 euro total - this is with 9 months sub only <---- 207 uero for a year sub
GW2 - a few character slots + gems or cosmetic shit 50 euro + Expansions 105 euro total
I see this will save me money and put out presure at the same time to Arenenet to push out new contend.
My verdict ?
Anet wins hands down with their cash shop.