ANet will probably float as many gems into the market that sets an ideal price using the internal logarithm they put in place. If not we'll see what the gold-gem cap is
Vannor could add a note that we don't know if it will happen but it's all ? at this point.
I wasn't insinuating its confirmed that arena net will flood the market on release for the initial purchasing they have also done this on the BWE's after resets.
It was confirmed in an gemstore orientated Q&A session I think.
Nice. Well I don't think it will be too much of a problem since there is already a cost to buy with real money and it will take at least a little time for people to be making a lot of in game gold. I'll trust ANet has it under control.
At the rate shown on the first page picture about 17g60s
The rate on that picture should be ignored. Firstly, it was from a beta weekend which has nothing to do with release and is probably an unrealistic figure (I put a note under it in red). Secondly, because the exchange rates will constantly change.
Of course which is the beauty of the system. I was mearly putting it into perspective for him based on a figure that was shown.
As a buy2play, freemium hybrid, I think it is pretty certain Anet will fiddle with prices and exchange rates whenever they think it will increase profits. They have every right to maximize thier profits. Look at Electronic Arts, with Battlefield Heros they promised to never sell power, yet eventually did so in spades and openly admitted to juggling drop/exchange rates they deemed to be not making them enough money. Freemium games do it all the time. Manefestos go out the window when the bottom line is under pressure.
If that is the case, no will ever sell gems, ever.
Because pre-set rates will never satisfy a player trading "RL-cash" for ingame economy, specially if the rates start as low as that screenshot you got on the post
(i don't see myself ever selling 100gems for anything less than 10g)
lol, the screenshot is just an example from one of the beta weekends. I'll add a note that the rates in that image should not be taken seriously.
Would it be possible for me to "gift" a certain number of gems to another player in exchange for a "gift" of a certain amount of gold from that player? Just a thought.
As a buy2play, freemium hybrid, I think it is pretty certain Anet will fiddle with prices and exchange rates whenever they think it will increase profits. They have every right to maximize thier profits. Look at Electronic Arts, with Battlefield Heros they promised to never sell power, yet eventually did so in spades and openly admitted to juggling drop/exchange rates they deemed to be not making them enough money. Freemium games do it all the time. Manefestos go out the window when the bottom line is under pressure.
Would it be possible for me to "gift" a certain number of gems to another player in exchange for a "gift" of a certain amount of gold from that player? Just a thought.
Doing that would be like buying from gold sellers and would 'probably' be against the code of conduct.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
You said arenanet is the only supplier of gems AND gold.
Do you not get gold when killing monsters? Is there no way to sell loot for gold? Is there an auction house or the ability to sell items to other players for gold?
Originally posted by bcbully So how much gold do I get for $100?
it would be base off but much gems sell for last beta you got 4000 gems for $50 for for $100 you would get 8000 gems
100 Gems sell for 10 sliver that would be 8 gold for 8000 gems
100 gems sell for 50 sliver that would be 40 gold for 8000 gems
100 gems sell for 80 sliver that would be 64 gold for 8000 gems
100 gems sell for 1 gold that would be 80 gold for 8000 gems
so far across all BEW i lowest i seen was 100 gems selling for 8 sliver and the highest was 100 gems selling for 80 sliver. then 80 was in BEW3 and this was the first time when you buy geams with real money you buy them for real not like in the 1st 2 BEW you could get 500 Gems for free
Would it be possible for me to "gift" a certain number of gems to another player in exchange for a "gift" of a certain amount of gold from that player? Just a thought.
Doing that would be like buying from gold sellers and would 'probably' be against the code of conduct.
I'm not condoning it. In another thread I was in the middle of a mud fight over a kid who bought gold and got caught by wow-mods. Though I defended the poor kid from the viciousness of the trolls, I was in agreement that he should have been punished (he got off with a warning).
However, it wouldn't have to be a gold seller. Could I not "gift" gems to a friend in exchange for a "gift" of gold from him? I think that's where the danger lies. I believe that's the window which gold sellers and others will use to buy/sell gems to other players directly. In my opinion, I think Anet should not allow for any form of transfer of gems from one player to another. They should make it so the only way to use gems is to either redeem them for stuff in the AH or to exchange them for gold from Anet direclty.
You said arenanet is the only supplier of gems AND gold.
Do you not get gold when killing monsters? Is there no way to sell loot for gold? Is there an auction house or the ability to sell items to other players for gold?
Well, all that is pretty obvious. Getting any gold using game methods should be considered as coming from AreneNet anyway since they have the power to alter tha rates you get gold and/or items to sell for gold from actually playing and they put the methods in there in the first place.
But my post is about the gem/gold exchange system and is supposed to be limited to that only. I will change it to: ArenaNet are the ONLY supplier for gems and gold exchanges.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Well organized and informative post Vannor. But to be honest, I don't see how any of the facts you posted will change the mind of anyone who thinks this system is P2W.
Because really, if someone thinks that the gem/gold system is P2W...they think this because you can spend real money to buy in-game gold. And the fact of the matter is that, at the end of the day, you can spend real money and receive in-game gold in this system. All the hijinks that occur in the background to determine pricing, and insert intermediary currencies (gems) don't really matter.
I just can't see someone believing the gem/gold system to be P2W changing their mind once they learn that pricing is determined by a supply/demand structure and the system is entirely inter-player trade. In their mind, you still trade real money for gold, and that's all that matters.
I don't think his intention was ever to discuss P2W. He wanted to show the nuts and bolts of the system so that everyone can understand how it works. There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions made about the actual mechanics of how it works floating around lately.
Yes, I wasn't trying to change anyones mind about anything. I just wanted to get the facts across so the system is understood. I've done my best to make the parts that are not fact or we don't have straight answers for obvious.
The system cannot be fully understood or even sufficiently understood until we have straight answer from Arenanet answering the question: if one person buys gold or sells gem one time, how is the price affected exactly?
Given their transparency in other subjects, I am surprised Arenanet hasn't been clear about this one, yet (based on the information provided in the opening post).
Well organized and informative post Vannor. But to be honest, I don't see how any of the facts you posted will change the mind of anyone who thinks this system is P2W.
Because really, if someone thinks that the gem/gold system is P2W...they think this because you can spend real money to buy in-game gold. And the fact of the matter is that, at the end of the day, you can spend real money and receive in-game gold in this system. All the hijinks that occur in the background to determine pricing, and insert intermediary currencies (gems) don't really matter.
I just can't see someone believing the gem/gold system to be P2W changing their mind once they learn that pricing is determined by a supply/demand structure and the system is entirely inter-player trade. In their mind, you still trade real money for gold, and that's all that matters.
I don't think his intention was ever to discuss P2W. He wanted to show the nuts and bolts of the system so that everyone can understand how it works. There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions made about the actual mechanics of how it works floating around lately.
Yes, I wasn't trying to change anyones mind about anything. I just wanted to get the facts across so the system is understood. I've done my best to make the parts that are not fact or we don't have straight answers for obvious.
The system cannot be fully understood or even sufficiently understood until we have straight answer from Arenanet answering the question: if one person buys gold or sells gem one time, how is the price affected exactly?
Given their transparency in other subjects, I am surprised Arenanet hasn't been clear about this one, yet (based on the information provided in the opening post).
There's one person we should ask, unfortunately I don't know how to contact him. Not trying to be a creep by trying to contact Anet devs, but if anyone has the asnwers that we are searching for, it is John Smith, the economist for GW2.
I don't see how this system prevents or reduces 3rd party gold sales unless the $ -> gold expense is intentionally kept low by ArenaNet. If it's expensive to buy gold, the 3rd party gold sellers will compete based on price.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by XAPGames I don't see how this system prevents or reduces 3rd party gold sales unless the $ -> gold expense is intentionally kept low by ArenaNet. If it's expensive to buy gold, the 3rd party gold sellers will compete based on price.
Many times, people will pay a little more if it means that their transaction is secure.
Edit: I guess I should also say, no this will not eliminate 3rd party selling. It will just hurt it.
The important bits for me are the currency exchange rate fee and this :
Q. Are the current exchange rates the same across all servers?
A. Yes, the marketplace will be global and draws data from all servers.
These 2 things make me worry less about players buying themselves into the economy with real money to be able to determine exchange rates. That will be very hard to do if data is drawn from all servers.
As a buy2play, freemium hybrid, I think it is pretty certain Anet will fiddle with prices and exchange rates whenever they think it will increase profits. They have every right to maximize thier profits. Look at Electronic Arts, with Battlefield Heros they promised to never sell power, yet eventually did so in spades and openly admitted to juggling drop/exchange rates they deemed to be not making them enough money. Freemium games do it all the time. Manefestos go out the window when the bottom line is under pressure.
This is my thoughts as well and makes the system worse than I originally thought as I was thinkiing it was a player lead market as it is in Pefect World games like BOI and Jade Dynasty but to actually have the developers/publishers control the rates is just ripe for "tweeking" when they want players to buy more gems. Not earning enough income for gems? just make the price attractive to sell gems as in a nice high gold price and watch players flock to the gem store to make a tidy profit. Also rich players will stock up on gems and only sell when they price is high and hold back when its low. You have to hand to Arenanet and Ncsoft what a genius system I think Killion81's thread about the gems being the centre piece to everything in the game was very insightful.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Well organized and informative post Vannor. But to be honest, I don't see how any of the facts you posted will change the mind of anyone who thinks this system is P2W.
Because really, if someone thinks that the gem/gold system is P2W...they think this because you can spend real money to buy in-game gold. And the fact of the matter is that, at the end of the day, you can spend real money and receive in-game gold in this system. All the hijinks that occur in the background to determine pricing, and insert intermediary currencies (gems) don't really matter.
I just can't see someone believing the gem/gold system to be P2W changing their mind once they learn that pricing is determined by a supply/demand structure and the system is entirely inter-player trade. In their mind, you still trade real money for gold, and that's all that matters.
I don't think his intention was ever to discuss P2W. He wanted to show the nuts and bolts of the system so that everyone can understand how it works. There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions made about the actual mechanics of how it works floating around lately.
Yes, I wasn't trying to change anyones mind about anything. I just wanted to get the facts across so the system is understood. I've done my best to make the parts that are not fact or we don't have straight answers for obvious.
The system cannot be fully understood or even sufficiently understood until we have straight answer from Arenanet answering the question: if one person buys gold or sells gem one time, how is the price affected exactly?
Given their transparency in other subjects, I am surprised Arenanet hasn't been clear about this one, yet (based on the information provided in the opening post).
They have answered this question already though.
If one person buys gold then the price of gold will go up depending on how much they purchase that one time, same for gems.
Arenanet will have a set number of gold and gems in the pot to kick things off then plan to leave it to the fate of the market. If everyone sells gems for gold, the price of gold skyrockets as supply begins to exhaust itself whilst at the same time the gem price plumits as the market becomes oversaturated with more of the shiny stone.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
Originally posted by cinos Arenanet will have a set number of gold and gems in the pot to kick things off then plan to leave it to the fate of the market. If everyone sells gems for gold, the price of gold skyrockets as supply begins to exhaust itself whilst at the same time the gem price plumits as the market becomes oversaturated with more of the shiny stone.
No they will most certainly not. This would make ridiculous inflation on game start because EVERYBODY would buy gold and almost noone would buy gems (as only people with reasonable amount of gold would be those who bought the gold).
I'd sell my gems just to make a profit off them. I'm actually going to make a second toon just for playing the market.
That's all he is going to be.
Play the market, buy a small amount of gems to get him started, than play the market, buy low, sell high. If I make money on it, than I'll sell all of it, wait for prices to drop back down to a reasonable rate, buy with everything I have.
All in all, i'm hoping $10 will fund my little guild. Play the market, amass some wealth, then start using some, and re-investing the other.
Plus it's kind of fun cause if I get effed it's no big deal haha. It is just a game.
Good luck with that, but you shouldn't be expecting a whole lot of fluctuation. Most likely scenario is prices generally going up as players get higher level and are able to get gold more and more easily. You'll have to offset the fee to be able to gain anything from playing the market. Predicting when a price is low and when it is high is no easy matter.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Well organized and informative post Vannor. But to be honest, I don't see how any of the facts you posted will change the mind of anyone who thinks this system is P2W.
Because really, if someone thinks that the gem/gold system is P2W...they think this because you can spend real money to buy in-game gold. And the fact of the matter is that, at the end of the day, you can spend real money and receive in-game gold in this system. All the hijinks that occur in the background to determine pricing, and insert intermediary currencies (gems) don't really matter.
I just can't see someone believing the gem/gold system to be P2W changing their mind once they learn that pricing is determined by a supply/demand structure and the system is entirely inter-player trade. In their mind, you still trade real money for gold, and that's all that matters.
I don't think his intention was ever to discuss P2W. He wanted to show the nuts and bolts of the system so that everyone can understand how it works. There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions made about the actual mechanics of how it works floating around lately.
Yes, I wasn't trying to change anyones mind about anything. I just wanted to get the facts across so the system is understood. I've done my best to make the parts that are not fact or we don't have straight answers for obvious.
The system cannot be fully understood or even sufficiently understood until we have straight answer from Arenanet answering the question: if one person buys gold or sells gem one time, how is the price affected exactly?
Given their transparency in other subjects, I am surprised Arenanet hasn't been clear about this one, yet (based on the information provided in the opening post).
They have answered this question already though.
If one person buys gold then the price of gold will go up depending on how much they purchase that one time, same for gems.
Arenanet will have a set number of gold and gems in the pot to kick things off then plan to leave it to the fate of the market. If everyone sells gems for gold, the price of gold skyrockets as supply begins to exhaust itself whilst at the same time the gem price plumits as the market becomes oversaturated with more of the shiny stone.
I'm not sure this has anything to d owith anything, but the gem can only fall so far. I would assume there is a floor that will be adjusted.
Comments
Smile
Nice. Well I don't think it will be too much of a problem since there is already a cost to buy with real money and it will take at least a little time for people to be making a lot of in game gold. I'll trust ANet has it under control.
Of course which is the beauty of the system. I was mearly putting it into perspective for him based on a figure that was shown.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
As a buy2play, freemium hybrid, I think it is pretty certain Anet will fiddle with prices and exchange rates whenever they think it will increase profits. They have every right to maximize thier profits. Look at Electronic Arts, with Battlefield Heros they promised to never sell power, yet eventually did so in spades and openly admitted to juggling drop/exchange rates they deemed to be not making them enough money. Freemium games do it all the time. Manefestos go out the window when the bottom line is under pressure.
Would it be possible for me to "gift" a certain number of gems to another player in exchange for a "gift" of a certain amount of gold from that player? Just a thought.
Exactly how is GW2 fremium?
Doing that would be like buying from gold sellers and would 'probably' be against the code of conduct.
Can you clarify something?
You said arenanet is the only supplier of gems AND gold.
Do you not get gold when killing monsters? Is there no way to sell loot for gold? Is there an auction house or the ability to sell items to other players for gold?
it would be base off but much gems sell for last beta you got 4000 gems for $50 for for $100 you would get 8000 gems
100 Gems sell for 10 sliver that would be 8 gold for 8000 gems
100 gems sell for 50 sliver that would be 40 gold for 8000 gems
100 gems sell for 80 sliver that would be 64 gold for 8000 gems
100 gems sell for 1 gold that would be 80 gold for 8000 gems
so far across all BEW i lowest i seen was 100 gems selling for 8 sliver and the highest was 100 gems selling for 80 sliver. then 80 was in BEW3 and this was the first time when you buy geams with real money you buy them for real not like in the 1st 2 BEW you could get 500 Gems for free
I'm not condoning it. In another thread I was in the middle of a mud fight over a kid who bought gold and got caught by wow-mods. Though I defended the poor kid from the viciousness of the trolls, I was in agreement that he should have been punished (he got off with a warning).
However, it wouldn't have to be a gold seller. Could I not "gift" gems to a friend in exchange for a "gift" of gold from him? I think that's where the danger lies. I believe that's the window which gold sellers and others will use to buy/sell gems to other players directly. In my opinion, I think Anet should not allow for any form of transfer of gems from one player to another. They should make it so the only way to use gems is to either redeem them for stuff in the AH or to exchange them for gold from Anet direclty.
Well, all that is pretty obvious. Getting any gold using game methods should be considered as coming from AreneNet anyway since they have the power to alter tha rates you get gold and/or items to sell for gold from actually playing and they put the methods in there in the first place.
But my post is about the gem/gold exchange system and is supposed to be limited to that only. I will change it to: ArenaNet are the ONLY supplier for gems and gold exchanges.
The system cannot be fully understood or even sufficiently understood until we have straight answer from Arenanet answering the question: if one person buys gold or sells gem one time, how is the price affected exactly?
Given their transparency in other subjects, I am surprised Arenanet hasn't been clear about this one, yet (based on the information provided in the opening post).
There's one person we should ask, unfortunately I don't know how to contact him. Not trying to be a creep by trying to contact Anet devs, but if anyone has the asnwers that we are searching for, it is John Smith, the economist for GW2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clyvEMEJE50 (1:44)
Many times, people will pay a little more if it means that their transaction is secure.
Edit: I guess I should also say, no this will not eliminate 3rd party selling. It will just hurt it.
The important bits for me are the currency exchange rate fee and this :
Q. Are the current exchange rates the same across all servers?
A. Yes, the marketplace will be global and draws data from all servers.
These 2 things make me worry less about players buying themselves into the economy with real money to be able to determine exchange rates. That will be very hard to do if data is drawn from all servers.
This is my thoughts as well and makes the system worse than I originally thought as I was thinkiing it was a player lead market as it is in Pefect World games like BOI and Jade Dynasty but to actually have the developers/publishers control the rates is just ripe for "tweeking" when they want players to buy more gems. Not earning enough income for gems? just make the price attractive to sell gems as in a nice high gold price and watch players flock to the gem store to make a tidy profit. Also rich players will stock up on gems and only sell when they price is high and hold back when its low. You have to hand to Arenanet and Ncsoft what a genius system I think Killion81's thread about the gems being the centre piece to everything in the game was very insightful.
For anyone that did not read it.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/358202/page/1
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
No they will most certainly not. This would make ridiculous inflation on game start because EVERYBODY would buy gold and almost noone would buy gems (as only people with reasonable amount of gold would be those who bought the gold).
Good luck with that, but you shouldn't be expecting a whole lot of fluctuation. Most likely scenario is prices generally going up as players get higher level and are able to get gold more and more easily. You'll have to offset the fee to be able to gain anything from playing the market. Predicting when a price is low and when it is high is no easy matter.
Selling gems early won't get you much.
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
I'm not sure this has anything to d owith anything, but the gem can only fall so far. I would assume there is a floor that will be adjusted.
When this happens what does that do?
<--Not an economist lol