It's worth noting that almost ALL gold selling in D3 is 3rd party now because there's a floor of 2.5 dollars per 1 million gold price in the RMAH. Gold is inflating, and no one in their right mind would pay that much for a million gold.
If you can use the AH to put worthless items up for a lot and transfer gold etc, then I expect anet will be competing with gold sellers as well.
Well organized and informative post Vannor. But to be honest, I don't see how any of the facts you posted will change the mind of anyone who thinks this system is P2W.
Because really, if someone thinks that the gem/gold system is P2W...they think this because you can spend real money to buy in-game gold. And the fact of the matter is that, at the end of the day, you can spend real money and receive in-game gold in this system. All the hijinks that occur in the background to determine pricing, and insert intermediary currencies (gems) don't really matter.
I just can't see someone believing the gem/gold system to be P2W changing their mind once they learn that pricing is determined by a supply/demand structure and the system is entirely inter-player trade. In their mind, you still trade real money for gold, and that's all that matters.
I don't think his intention was ever to discuss P2W. He wanted to show the nuts and bolts of the system so that everyone can understand how it works. There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions made about the actual mechanics of how it works floating around lately.
Yes, I wasn't trying to change anyones mind about anything. I just wanted to get the facts across so the system is understood. I've done my best to make the parts that are not fact or we don't have straight answers for obvious.
The system cannot be fully understood or even sufficiently understood until we have straight answer from Arenanet answering the question: if one person buys gold or sells gem one time, how is the price affected exactly?
Given their transparency in other subjects, I am surprised Arenanet hasn't been clear about this one, yet (based on the information provided in the opening post).
They have answered this question already though.
If one person buys gold then the price of gold will go up depending on how much they purchase that one time, same for gems.
Arenanet will have a set number of gold and gems in the pot to kick things off then plan to leave it to the fate of the market. If everyone sells gems for gold, the price of gold skyrockets as supply begins to exhaust itself whilst at the same time the gem price plumits as the market becomes oversaturated with more of the shiny stone.
I'm not sure this has anything to d owith anything, but the gem can only fall so far. I would assume there is a floor that will be adjusted.
Would it be possible for me to "gift" a certain number of gems to another player in exchange for a "gift" of a certain amount of gold from that player? Just a thought.
Doing that would be like buying from gold sellers and would 'probably' be against the code of conduct.
Not sure why you would think that.
Requiem Bloodymare had a cash shop with a gifting feature, and trading in game gold or items for cash shop stuff happened all the time. It's the reason there's a "gift" option in a cash shop in the first place.
Different game, obviously, but same cash shop feature for the same reason.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
Early access. First minute. Hundreds of people who pre-purchased gems enter the game and buy gold for gems in order to
a) buy mats for crafting
b) buy pvp siege equipment
c) pay for guilds
etc.
Everybody is buying gold with gems. However, noone is buying gems with gold, because noone has gold yet, except those who bough it with gems! Since you dont have any gold in the economy yet! People are level one. They get crap copper drops!
Therefore, if ANet would not control the system, but make it adjust itself based on how many "gold" is left in the pot, very soon the pot of gold would be nearly empty and so, gem to gold conversion ratio would plummet (you'd get like some copper for 100 gems).
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
I don't think they need an excuse at all. Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. There is no reason that they should release the inner workings of their system in my opinion.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
I don't think they need an excuse at all. Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. There is no reason that they should release the inner workings of their system in my opinion.
The reason is transparency, which I thought was something that Arenanet held dearly.
Early access. First minute. Hundreds of people who pre-purchased gems enter the game and buy gold for gems in order to
a) buy mats for crafting
b) buy pvp siege equipment
c) pay for guilds
etc.
Everybody is buying gold with gems. However, noone is buying gems with gold, because noone has gold yet, except those who bough it with gems! Since you dont have any gold in the economy yet! People are level one. They get crap copper drops!
Therefore, if ANet would not control the system, but make it adjust itself based on how many "gold" is left in the pot, very soon the pot of gold would be nearly empty and so, gem to gold conversion ratio would plummet (you'd get like some copper for 100 gems).
That sounds like Anet would no longer be making money. I don't think they would let that happen if that is the case.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
I don't think they need an excuse at all. Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. There is no reason that they should release the inner workings of their system in my opinion.
The reason is transparency, which I thought was something that Arenanet held dearly.
Where did you get that idea? Because they've shown so much coverage of the game pre-launch and allowed a lot of players to play in BWE events?
Your assumption that they hold transparency dearly, even if true, does not mean that it would also be important for them to be transparent with their economic exchange algorithms.
Would it be possible for me to "gift" a certain number of gems to another player in exchange for a "gift" of a certain amount of gold from that player? Just a thought.
Doing that would be like buying from gold sellers and would 'probably' be against the code of conduct.
Not sure why you would think that.
Requiem Bloodymare had a cash shop with a gifting feature, and trading in game gold or items for cash shop stuff happened all the time. It's the reason there's a "gift" option in a cash shop in the first place.
The reason the gift feature is in the cash shop is so you can buy gems for someone else without having to access their account, mess about with bank transfers or give them your payment info.
If what you're saying was the case then why don't they allow open transfer of gems or gem exchanges for other players items on the tradepost? Or let players sell their gems themselves? Putting all those restrictions in makes no sense if they are going to allow players to do it using workarounds, it's like overcomplicating everything for no reason.
I'm not saying it won't go on in the background, I'm certain it will. But no AAA MMO will simply allow it, I'd be very surprised if they do.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
I don't think they need an excuse at all. Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. There is no reason that they should release the inner workings of their system in my opinion.
The reason is transparency, which I thought was something that Arenanet held dearly.
Where did you get that idea? Because they've shown so much coverage of the game pre-launch and allowed a lot of players to play in BWE events?
Your assumption that they hold transparency dearly, even if true, does not mean that it would also be important for them to be transparent with their economic exchange algorithms.
Which happens to be a major system of the game: the gem-gold trading system. They were trasnsparent in many ways, that's true, just wish they would keep the same attitude in this major aspect as well.
Also, to reply to your previous: " Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. ": it will however be much harder for them to predict the prices when they don't know how many buy orders it takes to double the price.
Would it be possible for me to "gift" a certain number of gems to another player in exchange for a "gift" of a certain amount of gold from that player? Just a thought.
Doing that would be like buying from gold sellers and would 'probably' be against the code of conduct.
Not sure why you would think that.
Requiem Bloodymare had a cash shop with a gifting feature, and trading in game gold or items for cash shop stuff happened all the time. It's the reason there's a "gift" option in a cash shop in the first place.
The reason the gift feature is in the cash shop is so you can buy gems for someone else without having to access their account, mess about with bank transfers or give them your payment info.
If what you're saying was the case then why don't they allow open transfer of gems or gem exchanges for other players items on the tradepost? Or let players sell their gems themselves? Putting all those restrictions in makes no sense if they are going to allow players to do it using workarounds, it's like overcomplicating everything for no reason.
I'm not saying it won't go on in the background, I'm certain it will. But no AAA MMO will simply allow it, I'd be very surprised if they do.
Not sure I agree. They may want to curb it by making it a convoluted process, while not strictly forbidding it.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
I don't think they need an excuse at all. Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. There is no reason that they should release the inner workings of their system in my opinion.
The reason is transparency, which I thought was something that Arenanet held dearly.
Where did you get that idea? Because they've shown so much coverage of the game pre-launch and allowed a lot of players to play in BWE events?
Your assumption that they hold transparency dearly, even if true, does not mean that it would also be important for them to be transparent with their economic exchange algorithms.
Which happens to be a major system of the game: the gem-gold trading system. They were trasnsparent in many ways, that's true, just wish they would keep the same attitude in this major aspect as well.
Also, to reply to your previous: " Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. ": it will however be much harder for them to predict the prices when they don't know how many buy orders it takes to double the price.
Are you imlpying that people should be able to manipulate the market? Maybe you are misunderstanding something. I'm not sure because that was a fairly strange statement.
The way you put it, you make it sound like you would prefer to be able to manipulate the market by understanding their algortihm. But you wouldn't be able to do that even with the algorithm because you can not predict what other buyers/sellers are doing across all servers.
Every person that buys and sells gems for gold, or gold for gems, is going to be subject to everyone else accross all servers buying gems for gold, and gold for gems. You are not supposed to be able to predict the market with any degree of accuracy. You need to make a decision based on the numbers in front of you.
I'd sell my gems just to make a profit off them. I'm actually going to make a second toon just for playing the market.
That's all he is going to be.
Play the market, buy a small amount of gems to get him started, than play the market, buy low, sell high. If I make money on it, than I'll sell all of it, wait for prices to drop back down to a reasonable rate, buy with everything I have.
All in all, i'm hoping $10 will fund my little guild. Play the market, amass some wealth, then start using some, and re-investing the other.
Plus it's kind of fun cause if I get effed it's no big deal haha. It is just a game.
Good luck with that, but you shouldn't be expecting a whole lot of fluctuation. Most likely scenario is prices generally going up as players get higher level and are able to get gold more and more easily. You'll have to offset the fee to be able to gain anything from playing the market. Predicting when a price is low and when it is high is no easy matter.
Selling gems early won't get you much.
Its in AN best interest to have a fluctuating market, especially early in the games life, this stimulates boths sides of the market gold and gems. Players are only going to sell gems when they see a nice high gold price and players are only going to buy gems when they see a low gold price (in relative terms of course) and AN have complete control over this system. This also helps control inflation by having a huge gold sink because they cannot keep pumping gold into the game with no gold being taking out if they are not sellings gems for gold becuase the price is to high for the work involved. The only other solution to control inflation is to stop buying gems at some point and its seems from the OP they haven't ruled this out. But I do agree prices will go up in the long term as players find it easier to make lots of ingame gold this also stimulates the gem market for new players when the games has been out for a while, they can get lots of gold early on by selling gems.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
That's though only a rough description of the consequences of the formula used, which is precisely why I used the word "exactly" in my previous question. Why aren't they releasing the actual formula, why aren't they letting us analyze the consequences ourselves?
It's likely they haven't made a final decision on it. It's also likely that they will adjust their algorithm post launch.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
I don't think they need an excuse at all. Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. There is no reason that they should release the inner workings of their system in my opinion.
The reason is transparency, which I thought was something that Arenanet held dearly.
Where did you get that idea? Because they've shown so much coverage of the game pre-launch and allowed a lot of players to play in BWE events?
Your assumption that they hold transparency dearly, even if true, does not mean that it would also be important for them to be transparent with their economic exchange algorithms.
Which happens to be a major system of the game: the gem-gold trading system. They were trasnsparent in many ways, that's true, just wish they would keep the same attitude in this major aspect as well.
Also, to reply to your previous: " Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. ": it will however be much harder for them to predict the prices when they don't know how many buy orders it takes to double the price.
Are you imlpying that people should be able to manipulate the market? Maybe you are misunderstanding something. I'm not sure because that was a fairly strange statement.
The way you put it, you make it sound like you would prefer to be able to manipulate the market by understanding their algortihm. But you wouldn't be able to do that even with the algorithm because you can not predict what other buyers/sellers are doing across all servers.
Every person that buys and sells gems for gold, or gold for gems, is going to be subject to everyone else accross all servers buying gems for gold, and gold for gems. You are not supposed to be able to predict the market with any degree of accuracy. You need to make a decision based on the numbers in front of you.
No, I just want transperency. I don't like hidden mechanics when there is no obvious reason to hide them. A person could use such information to manipulate market sure, but the common person would be able to make a more informed decision as well, which is what I find more important.
I would assume that gems are the only independent variable here. Gold would be the dependent variable. Meaning only the buying and selling of gems effects gold prices not the other way around.
Also, I assume there will be two caps, one low and one high, of how much gold you can get for 100 gems at any one time. At midnight on the 25th I would assume to see a...
Duh
That's why they allowed sales of gems in the last BWE. The gold price per 100 gems will already be set based on those RL money purchases. I would still wait to sell those gems as most people would have not purchased them yet.
Originally posted by Aelious I would assume that gems are the only independent variable here. Gold would be the dependent variable. Meaning only the buying and selling of gems effects gold prices not the other way around.
Well, since any of those transactions in the exchange system includes both gems and gold; you can only buy gems with or sell gems for gold, it wouldn't really matter. Both are always exchanged at the same time.
If you are saying that the exchange of gold for items won't affect the system, you are right.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
What I figure is that there is no store of current gold to base the gems -> gold transaction by. That amount of gold will be determined by how many gems are out in the market. Having a singular independent variable is a lot more simple than having two. I could be wrong though.
Comments
It's worth noting that almost ALL gold selling in D3 is 3rd party now because there's a floor of 2.5 dollars per 1 million gold price in the RMAH. Gold is inflating, and no one in their right mind would pay that much for a million gold.
If you can use the AH to put worthless items up for a lot and transfer gold etc, then I expect anet will be competing with gold sellers as well.
People will stop selling their gems.
Not sure why you would think that.
Requiem Bloodymare had a cash shop with a gifting feature, and trading in game gold or items for cash shop stuff happened all the time. It's the reason there's a "gift" option in a cash shop in the first place.
Different game, obviously, but same cash shop feature for the same reason.
Adjusting algoritm post launch is no good excuse for not releasing such information since by then the game is live; it is analogous to class skills which may also be tweaked post release. I do however think that if they haven't made a final decision prior to the launch they have a good reason to withhold the actual formula.
It would be nice if they would explain themselves.
2 cinos
Early access. First minute. Hundreds of people who pre-purchased gems enter the game and buy gold for gems in order to
a) buy mats for crafting
b) buy pvp siege equipment
c) pay for guilds
etc.
Everybody is buying gold with gems. However, noone is buying gems with gold, because noone has gold yet, except those who bough it with gems! Since you dont have any gold in the economy yet! People are level one. They get crap copper drops!
Therefore, if ANet would not control the system, but make it adjust itself based on how many "gold" is left in the pot, very soon the pot of gold would be nearly empty and so, gem to gold conversion ratio would plummet (you'd get like some copper for 100 gems).
I don't think they need an excuse at all. Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. There is no reason that they should release the inner workings of their system in my opinion.
The reason is transparency, which I thought was something that Arenanet held dearly.
That sounds like Anet would no longer be making money. I don't think they would let that happen if that is the case.
Where did you get that idea? Because they've shown so much coverage of the game pre-launch and allowed a lot of players to play in BWE events?
Your assumption that they hold transparency dearly, even if true, does not mean that it would also be important for them to be transparent with their economic exchange algorithms.
The reason the gift feature is in the cash shop is so you can buy gems for someone else without having to access their account, mess about with bank transfers or give them your payment info.
If what you're saying was the case then why don't they allow open transfer of gems or gem exchanges for other players items on the tradepost? Or let players sell their gems themselves? Putting all those restrictions in makes no sense if they are going to allow players to do it using workarounds, it's like overcomplicating everything for no reason.
I'm not saying it won't go on in the background, I'm certain it will. But no AAA MMO will simply allow it, I'd be very surprised if they do.
Which happens to be a major system of the game: the gem-gold trading system. They were trasnsparent in many ways, that's true, just wish they would keep the same attitude in this major aspect as well.
Also, to reply to your previous: " Everyone can look at the enchange rate and decide what they want to do with their gems/gold on a case by case basis. ": it will however be much harder for them to predict the prices when they don't know how many buy orders it takes to double the price.
Not sure I agree. They may want to curb it by making it a convoluted process, while not strictly forbidding it.
Are you imlpying that people should be able to manipulate the market? Maybe you are misunderstanding something. I'm not sure because that was a fairly strange statement.
The way you put it, you make it sound like you would prefer to be able to manipulate the market by understanding their algortihm. But you wouldn't be able to do that even with the algorithm because you can not predict what other buyers/sellers are doing across all servers.
Every person that buys and sells gems for gold, or gold for gems, is going to be subject to everyone else accross all servers buying gems for gold, and gold for gems. You are not supposed to be able to predict the market with any degree of accuracy. You need to make a decision based on the numbers in front of you.
Its in AN best interest to have a fluctuating market, especially early in the games life, this stimulates boths sides of the market gold and gems. Players are only going to sell gems when they see a nice high gold price and players are only going to buy gems when they see a low gold price (in relative terms of course) and AN have complete control over this system. This also helps control inflation by having a huge gold sink because they cannot keep pumping gold into the game with no gold being taking out if they are not sellings gems for gold becuase the price is to high for the work involved. The only other solution to control inflation is to stop buying gems at some point and its seems from the OP they haven't ruled this out. But I do agree prices will go up in the long term as players find it easier to make lots of ingame gold this also stimulates the gem market for new players when the games has been out for a while, they can get lots of gold early on by selling gems.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
what are gems used for?
how hard is it to get gems in game without buying them with real money or gold?
is gold really needed later in the game?
is it hard to earn money?
No, I just want transperency. I don't like hidden mechanics when there is no obvious reason to hide them. A person could use such information to manipulate market sure, but the common person would be able to make a more informed decision as well, which is what I find more important.
Gems are used to buy items from the Cash Shop, including cosmetic clothing, storage upgrades, server transfers etc
You cannot get Gems in any way other than using real money or in-game gold, they aren't dropped by mobs
Gold is needed later in the game for repairs, transportation, WvW siege plans, to buy items from the Auction house, to buy materials for crafting etc
Generally speaking it's not very hard to earn gold, depends to how often you die and how efficiently you use the waypoint system.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
The thread is surprisingly civil, even though a very controversial topic is being discussed. MMORPG.com almost makes me feel proud now. : P
cool thanks for the info
Duh
That's why they allowed sales of gems in the last BWE. The gold price per 100 gems will already be set based on those RL money purchases. I would still wait to sell those gems as most people would have not purchased them yet.
Well, since any of those transactions in the exchange system includes both gems and gold; you can only buy gems with or sell gems for gold, it wouldn't really matter. Both are always exchanged at the same time.
If you are saying that the exchange of gold for items won't affect the system, you are right.
What I figure is that there is no store of current gold to base the gems -> gold transaction by. That amount of gold will be determined by how many gems are out in the market. Having a singular independent variable is a lot more simple than having two. I could be wrong though.