What I figure is that there is no store of current gold to base the gems -> gold transaction by. That amount of gold will be determined by how many gems are out in the market. Having a singular independent variable is a lot more simple than having two. I could be wrong though.
I agree, it would make more sense to base it off one variable but I'm sure they have put two in there in case they need to expand on it somehow in the future. That's what I'd do anyway.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Job well done Now hopefully people will understand the system a bit more now instead of creating those silly 'P2W threads'! *noms on shiny gems*
You forgot one small issue.....trolls don't usually bother to precisely read a thread. All a troll needs is the topic or the topic they themselves created and blammo....they're on a roll. Sadly this thread and all it's wonderful information will be ignored by trolls at best. There will be more P2W threads. I'd almost bet the farm on it.
Job well done Now hopefully people will understand the system a bit more now instead of creating those silly 'P2W threads'! *noms on shiny gems*
You forgot one small issue.....trolls don't usually bother to precisely read a thread. All a troll needs is the topic or the topic they themselves created and blammo....they're on a roll. Sadly this thread and all it's wonderful information will be ignored by trolls at best. There will be more P2W threads. I'd almost bet the farm on it.
I didn't make this thread to argue the P2W arguement either way. It's about the facts of the system and what arn't facts yet. People can make their own minds up about it. I just wanted to make sure they actually understood it, because I've seen that a lot of people don't.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
well they have stated that they wont make gold magicaly appear all the gold for gems will have to be farmed by players themselfs or do i remember wrong? sounds in your post like they will make a bunker (500k or x amount) of both gold and gems to start with.
Originally posted by Lokberg well they have stated that they wont make gold magicaly appear all the gold for gems will have to be farmed by players themselfs or do i remember wrong? sounds in your post like they will make a bunker (500k or x amount) of both gold and gems to start with.
As far as I am aware there doesn't need to be any in the system.. they would just set the starting rates. It hasn't been confirmed that stock can actually 'run out' and if it can't there is no need for them to inject any into the system because you can exchange anyway.
A lot of people think there needs to be 'stock' for you to be able to exchange with. That hasn't been confirmed or denied to my knowledge. If it has then I'd like a link to that info so i know myself as well.
There is a question in my OP that covers this:
"Q. Will we ever be unable to exchange gems for gold and vice versa?
A. There is no evidence or official comments suggesting that we will ever see a "No gems available" or "No gold available" screen. There isn't any information suggesting that we won't either. From what we've seen and heard that situation does not exist, but it might.
In other words, we might always be able to exchange gold for gems even if no players have been exchanging gems for gold and vice versa. We don't know yet."
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
If that is the case, no will ever sell gems, ever.
Because pre-set rates will never satisfy a player trading "RL-cash" for ingame economy, specially if the rates start as low as that screenshot you got on the post
(i don't see myself ever selling 100gems for anything less than 10g)
apparently you either don't know how to read or don't understand proper english very well.
OP explained, the gems you buy with real money do not influence the exchange rate, only the ones bought with in-game gold do.
This here is exactly why I'm glad the system doesn't allow players to determine the exchange price.
(i don't see myself ever selling 100gems for anything less than 10g)
This is the kind of player that completely ruins in-game economies.
Even less reason to sell gems (ps. and the market was "high" in BWE's because the gems really cost you nothing, even BWE3 gems, you get refunded)
Wouldn't the reverse be true? If gems cost you no real world money, they were free. Therefore, exchanging them for any amount of in game gold, regardless of how little, is still a net gain for you. And thus, wouldn't that encourage people to not care what the exchange rate is and just exchange all gems they had for in game gold after they got anything they wanted from the gem shop?
No, I just want transperency. I don't like hidden mechanics when there is no obvious reason to hide them. A person could use such information to manipulate market sure, but the common person would be able to make a more informed decision as well, which is what I find more important.
No obvious reason? Just think about it for a minute. There are already a lot of internet threads with people working out how to take advantage of the system for profit. If you give them every last detail on the mechanics, you just make it that much easier for them.
I don't personally see a problem with the folks who find playing market tycoon as the most fun aspect of an MMO using this exchange as a source of profit. But I suspect that Arena Net might not see things the same as I do and want to make it as much of a challenge for them as possible.
If that is the case, no will ever sell gems, ever.
Because pre-set rates will never satisfy a player trading "RL-cash" for ingame economy, specially if the rates start as low as that screenshot you got on the post
(i don't see myself ever selling 100gems for anything less than 10g)
OP explained, the gems you buy with real money do not influence the exchange rate, only the ones bought with in-game gold do.
I actually said it is 'believed' gems bought with real money don't affect the gem/gold exchange rate, but it hasn't been confirmed.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
So basically your saying is Anet can be a ****. And sell gem at extraordinary price of gold to force people to buy gem with real money.
I'm saying we havn't had an official statement about it yet. But, since players have 'assumed' thats how it works and ANet hasn't stepped in to say otherwise it's probably a sign it's correct? That's how I feel anyway.
Just so you understand it though, if it did, those purchases would actually make it cheaper to buy gems with gold, not more expensive. It could possibly be the better option for gold -> gem buyers, could be worse as well... depends on the market; how many people are buying gems with real money vs how many are buying gems with gold.
I've just changed it from 'believed' to 'assumed' in the OP. I think that is a better way of saying it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Originally posted by Lokberg well they have stated that they wont make gold magicaly appear all the gold for gems will have to be farmed by players themselfs or do i remember wrong? sounds in your post like they will make a bunker (500k or x amount) of both gold and gems to start with.
This is a sort of grey area that hasn't been explained to my knowledge.
We know that at least in beta there was a stockpile that arenanet did sell, because you could buy Gold with Gems as soon as you logged in. This was before any player could have had the Gold to buy Gems.
I expect a repeat performance at launch for a couple reasons. Players are more likely to buy Gems in order to buy Gold when they don't have any. The amount of Gold that Gems will get you at launch will be small compared to a few months after launch.
Hard to say at what point Arenanet leaves the system alone and let's it develop organically.
Originally posted by Lokberg well they have stated that they wont make gold magicaly appear all the gold for gems will have to be farmed by players themselfs or do i remember wrong? sounds in your post like they will make a bunker (500k or x amount) of both gold and gems to start with.
This is a sort of grey area that hasn't been explained to my knowledge.
We know that at least in beta there was a stockpile that arenanet did sell, because you could buy Gold with Gems as soon as you logged in. This was before any player could have had the Gold to buy Gems.
I expect a repeat performance at launch for a couple reasons. Players are more likely to buy Gems in order to buy Gold when they don't have any. The amount of Gold that Gems will get you at launch will be small compared to a few months after launch.
Hard to say at what point Arenanet leaves the system alone and let's it develop organically.
Again, assuming there is a stockpile is just that, an assumption. As in, is there even any stock at all? Lots of people are just assuming there is without any facts or proof. ANet have never said that in order to do an exchange others need to have done opposite exchanges first to cover the amount.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Again, assuming there is a stockpile is just that, an assumption. As in, is there even any stock at all? Lots of people are just assuming there is without any facts or proof. ANet have never said that in order to do an exchange others need to have done opposite exchanges first to cover the amount.
They have never said it, correct. They have also never said that it is NOT how it works. So either way you lean, you are going to be assuming.
My take on it is that just "creating" gold any time someone wants to exchange gems for gold is bad. Any time you "create" currency it has a negative effect on the value of that currency.
Creating gold, would be a bad thing. A very bad thing, imo, but you could argue that it is only "a little bit" bad. You can't really make a valid argument that it isnt' a bad thing to any degree though, without ignoring all prevelant economic theory and principle. Either way, they are already going to be "creating" gems any time someone wants to pay real money for them, so it is, imo, a bad idea for them to just start creating gold as well through this system.
My guess is that they are, technically, not going to just create gold as it's needed, regardless of how many people participate in the exchange. What they will do, however, is handle the exchange even when they do not literally have the gold "on hand" from previous inverse exchanges. But NOT by just creating the gold, instead it is handled on the expectation that the gold will eventually come into the system. Sorta like granting a loan to one player which is later paid off by a different player.
This might not sound any different from "creating gold" to someone who isn't very familiar with economies. But the difference is actually quite substantial. Particularly in how it needs to effect the exchange rates between the two currencies. It's sort of like banks work. Banks don't have the cash on hand to cover everything they are doing with money, but they also are not creating money. Only the government can do that.
Originally posted by Lokberg well they have stated that they wont make gold magicaly appear all the gold for gems will have to be farmed by players themselfs or do i remember wrong? sounds in your post like they will make a bunker (500k or x amount) of both gold and gems to start with.
This is a sort of grey area that hasn't been explained to my knowledge.
We know that at least in beta there was a stockpile that arenanet did sell, because you could buy Gold with Gems as soon as you logged in. This was before any player could have had the Gold to buy Gems.
I expect a repeat performance at launch for a couple reasons. Players are more likely to buy Gems in order to buy Gold when they don't have any. The amount of Gold that Gems will get you at launch will be small compared to a few months after launch.
Hard to say at what point Arenanet leaves the system alone and let's it develop organically.
Again, assuming there is a stockpile is just that, an assumption. As in, is there even any stock at all? Lots of people are just assuming there is without any facts or proof. ANet have never said that in order to do an exchange others need to have done opposite exchanges first to cover the amount.
There had to be a stockpile in Beta. Please reread my post. People were buying Gold for Gems before anybody had gold in beta.
You are right that I am assuming that Arenanet will do this again at launch. I do not know this for a fact. However it would be a very good way to make money for Arenanet at launch.
Do you know how dangerous that would be to fully disclose formulas and transaction based algorithms? Its basically giving information on HOW to exploit their transaction system. If you have worked in any setting regarding penny stock tradings or any commodities trading, people hide this information because there is a way to exploit the pricing based on demand and supply if someone can figure WHEN an increase or decrease is going to occur depending on how much is being traded.
Part of the fact is WHY they hired their inhouse economist to monitor daily transactions in the market to see where its fluctating and why. Why do they do this? Its because if they see one group of people potentially trying to stimulate or exploit a pricing situation, they can react to it (however they choose to do this is up to them). In the long run, giving public access on how their transaction system works is not only dangerous to them in terms of making money, but can also unintentionally give 3rd party groups power to fluctuate the markets of ANY commodity at any given time. Sometimes, less information is safer. But thats my opinion on it anyways.
TL:DR - giving out the full formulas and transactions algorithms opens avenues for insider trading, which does not help the rest of the economy trying to maintain stability
Originally posted by Lokberg well they have stated that they wont make gold magicaly appear all the gold for gems will have to be farmed by players themselfs or do i remember wrong? sounds in your post like they will make a bunker (500k or x amount) of both gold and gems to start with.
This is a sort of grey area that hasn't been explained to my knowledge.
We know that at least in beta there was a stockpile that arenanet did sell, because you could buy Gold with Gems as soon as you logged in. This was before any player could have had the Gold to buy Gems.
I expect a repeat performance at launch for a couple reasons. Players are more likely to buy Gems in order to buy Gold when they don't have any. The amount of Gold that Gems will get you at launch will be small compared to a few months after launch.
Hard to say at what point Arenanet leaves the system alone and let's it develop organically.
Again, assuming there is a stockpile is just that, an assumption. As in, is there even any stock at all? Lots of people are just assuming there is without any facts or proof. ANet have never said that in order to do an exchange others need to have done opposite exchanges first to cover the amount.
There had to be a stockpile in Beta. Please reread my post. People were buying Gold for Gems before anybody had gold in beta.
You are right that I am assuming that Arenanet will do this again at launch. I do not know this for a fact. However it would be a very good way to make money for Arenanet at launch.
You're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say
Jagarid said it better. It is possible that when you do an exchange NEW gold or gems is created, it doesn't mean you are buying something another players once had. You might be though, ANet havn't confirmed or denied it.
You are thinking that it works like a storehouse with stockpiles but it could easily work like a currency making factory.. you press trade, what you spend disappears, what you purchase is newly created and exchange rates are affected accordingly. In this scenario ANet only has to set the starting exchange rates and that's it. Three important things would happen here:
We could buy gold even if no one has been buying gems. But it would be more expensive.
We could buy gems even if no one has been buying gold. But they would be more expensive.
Buying gems with real money wouldn't be affected.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Comments
I agree, it would make more sense to base it off one variable but I'm sure they have put two in there in case they need to expand on it somehow in the future. That's what I'd do anyway.
You forgot one small issue.....trolls don't usually bother to precisely read a thread. All a troll needs is the topic or the topic they themselves created and blammo....they're on a roll. Sadly this thread and all it's wonderful information will be ignored by trolls at best. There will be more P2W threads. I'd almost bet the farm on it.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I didn't make this thread to argue the P2W arguement either way. It's about the facts of the system and what arn't facts yet. People can make their own minds up about it. I just wanted to make sure they actually understood it, because I've seen that a lot of people don't.
As far as I am aware there doesn't need to be any in the system.. they would just set the starting rates. It hasn't been confirmed that stock can actually 'run out' and if it can't there is no need for them to inject any into the system because you can exchange anyway.
A lot of people think there needs to be 'stock' for you to be able to exchange with. That hasn't been confirmed or denied to my knowledge. If it has then I'd like a link to that info so i know myself as well.
There is a question in my OP that covers this:
"Q. Will we ever be unable to exchange gems for gold and vice versa?
A. There is no evidence or official comments suggesting that we will ever see a "No gems available" or "No gold available" screen. There isn't any information suggesting that we won't either. From what we've seen and heard that situation does not exist, but it might.
In other words, we might always be able to exchange gold for gems even if no players have been exchanging gems for gold and vice versa. We don't know yet."
apparently you either don't know how to read or don't understand proper english very well.
OP explained, the gems you buy with real money do not influence the exchange rate, only the ones bought with in-game gold do.
This here is exactly why I'm glad the system doesn't allow players to determine the exchange price.
(i don't see myself ever selling 100gems for anything less than 10g)
This is the kind of player that completely ruins in-game economies.
Angry Joe's Guild Wars 2 video review
Aerowyn's Video Compilation of ALL things Guild Wars 2
@Taugrim explains why the fanbois don't get it
Since when have facts EVER slowed the trolls down...?
This will be ignored by the next flamer who wants to start his own private GW2 is P2W thread.
Wouldn't the reverse be true? If gems cost you no real world money, they were free. Therefore, exchanging them for any amount of in game gold, regardless of how little, is still a net gain for you. And thus, wouldn't that encourage people to not care what the exchange rate is and just exchange all gems they had for in game gold after they got anything they wanted from the gem shop?
No obvious reason? Just think about it for a minute. There are already a lot of internet threads with people working out how to take advantage of the system for profit. If you give them every last detail on the mechanics, you just make it that much easier for them.
I don't personally see a problem with the folks who find playing market tycoon as the most fun aspect of an MMO using this exchange as a source of profit. But I suspect that Arena Net might not see things the same as I do and want to make it as much of a challenge for them as possible.
I actually said it is 'believed' gems bought with real money don't affect the gem/gold exchange rate, but it hasn't been confirmed.
So basically your saying is Anet can be a ****. And sell gem at extraordinary price of gold to force people to buy gem with real money.
I'm saying we havn't had an official statement about it yet. But, since players have 'assumed' thats how it works and ANet hasn't stepped in to say otherwise it's probably a sign it's correct? That's how I feel anyway.
Just so you understand it though, if it did, those purchases would actually make it cheaper to buy gems with gold, not more expensive. It could possibly be the better option for gold -> gem buyers, could be worse as well... depends on the market; how many people are buying gems with real money vs how many are buying gems with gold.
I've just changed it from 'believed' to 'assumed' in the OP. I think that is a better way of saying it.
This is a sort of grey area that hasn't been explained to my knowledge.
We know that at least in beta there was a stockpile that arenanet did sell, because you could buy Gold with Gems as soon as you logged in. This was before any player could have had the Gold to buy Gems.
I expect a repeat performance at launch for a couple reasons. Players are more likely to buy Gems in order to buy Gold when they don't have any. The amount of Gold that Gems will get you at launch will be small compared to a few months after launch.
Hard to say at what point Arenanet leaves the system alone and let's it develop organically.
Again, assuming there is a stockpile is just that, an assumption. As in, is there even any stock at all? Lots of people are just assuming there is without any facts or proof. ANet have never said that in order to do an exchange others need to have done opposite exchanges first to cover the amount.
They have never said it, correct. They have also never said that it is NOT how it works. So either way you lean, you are going to be assuming.
My take on it is that just "creating" gold any time someone wants to exchange gems for gold is bad. Any time you "create" currency it has a negative effect on the value of that currency.
Creating gold, would be a bad thing. A very bad thing, imo, but you could argue that it is only "a little bit" bad. You can't really make a valid argument that it isnt' a bad thing to any degree though, without ignoring all prevelant economic theory and principle. Either way, they are already going to be "creating" gems any time someone wants to pay real money for them, so it is, imo, a bad idea for them to just start creating gold as well through this system.
My guess is that they are, technically, not going to just create gold as it's needed, regardless of how many people participate in the exchange. What they will do, however, is handle the exchange even when they do not literally have the gold "on hand" from previous inverse exchanges. But NOT by just creating the gold, instead it is handled on the expectation that the gold will eventually come into the system. Sorta like granting a loan to one player which is later paid off by a different player.
This might not sound any different from "creating gold" to someone who isn't very familiar with economies. But the difference is actually quite substantial. Particularly in how it needs to effect the exchange rates between the two currencies. It's sort of like banks work. Banks don't have the cash on hand to cover everything they are doing with money, but they also are not creating money. Only the government can do that.
There had to be a stockpile in Beta. Please reread my post. People were buying Gold for Gems before anybody had gold in beta.
You are right that I am assuming that Arenanet will do this again at launch. I do not know this for a fact. However it would be a very good way to make money for Arenanet at launch.
@TwoThreeFour
Do you know how dangerous that would be to fully disclose formulas and transaction based algorithms? Its basically giving information on HOW to exploit their transaction system. If you have worked in any setting regarding penny stock tradings or any commodities trading, people hide this information because there is a way to exploit the pricing based on demand and supply if someone can figure WHEN an increase or decrease is going to occur depending on how much is being traded.
Part of the fact is WHY they hired their inhouse economist to monitor daily transactions in the market to see where its fluctating and why. Why do they do this? Its because if they see one group of people potentially trying to stimulate or exploit a pricing situation, they can react to it (however they choose to do this is up to them). In the long run, giving public access on how their transaction system works is not only dangerous to them in terms of making money, but can also unintentionally give 3rd party groups power to fluctuate the markets of ANY commodity at any given time. Sometimes, less information is safer. But thats my opinion on it anyways.
TL:DR - giving out the full formulas and transactions algorithms opens avenues for insider trading, which does not help the rest of the economy trying to maintain stability
Edit: some spelling stuff.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/359874/Aerowyns-Video-Compilation-of-ALL-things-Guild-Wars-2.html
It's cheap to get gems in BWE because ANet was giving away free gems. This will not be the case come launch.
Expect higher prices for gems.
You're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say
Jagarid said it better. It is possible that when you do an exchange NEW gold or gems is created, it doesn't mean you are buying something another players once had. You might be though, ANet havn't confirmed or denied it.
You are thinking that it works like a storehouse with stockpiles but it could easily work like a currency making factory.. you press trade, what you spend disappears, what you purchase is newly created and exchange rates are affected accordingly. In this scenario ANet only has to set the starting exchange rates and that's it. Three important things would happen here: