For a share holder its about how much money you make, for a publisher its about selling lots of units, for critics its about ratings, for mmorpg people its about subscribers and as a general gamer its about how much fun you have playing.
This. The only thing that matters, as gamers playing an MMO, is that their are other people to play with and you are having fun. Nothing else matters.
i wouldn't go that far.. as a gamer it should be important to you how well your games does.. better the game does more money company will have to put out content... its all well and good if you have people to play with but if the game isn't doing well it could end up going the route of SWG or end up like many of these other games with almost no new content over long periods of time.. SWG still had a number of people activley playing when it closed down.. just not enough for them to keep it going.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
For a share holder its about how much money you make, for a publisher its about selling lots of units, for critics its about ratings, for mmorpg people its about subscribers and as a general gamer its about how much fun you have playing.
This. The only thing that matters, as gamers playing an MMO, is that their are other people to play with and you are having fun. Nothing else matters.
i wouldn't go that far.. as a gamer it should be important to you how well your games does.. better the game does more money company will have to put out content... its all well and good if you have people to play with but if the game isn't doing well it could end up going the route of SWG or end up like many of these other games with almost no new content over long periods of time.. SWG still had a number of people activley playing when it closed down.. just not enough for them to keep it going.
That's true. I was kind of alluding to that by saying as long as you have people to play with (meaning full servers).
Playing a game should alway's be fun first. Here's a good example from my experience's. I was bored of WoW and GW1 one day so decided to go check out pc game's at my local gamestop. They had LOTRO MoM CE for 20$ or EQ1 i think with all 10 expac's for 20$. Well I thought the LOTRO book's and movie's were great, so I grabbed LOTRO . Got home installed made my account, finally got into the game and decided to make a short fat hobbit minstril probably my favorite chr i've made in any game. Well then turbine get's bought out by WB and announce's it's plan to go F2P. Long story short imho the game has gone down the crapper since the move to F2P. Once I stopped having fun, I left.
Now with GW2, I have the fun of going were the wind take's me, and hopefully it'll last for year's.
Can't help but notice the logical fallacies in the argument that GW2 isn't going to be successful.
If we assume (and clearly we easily can) that the number of accounts ended for GW was approx 7 mil, and use the projected initial sales from beta signup and presale data is 3mil then the total would roughly be 10 mil, guess which game that surpasses, ahem, WoW. Yeah.
This. The only thing that matters, as gamers playing an MMO, is that their are other people to play with and you are having fun. Nothing else matters.
A large number of gamers have become so indoctrinated that they identify themselves by what games they play. This leads to an almost religous devotion to games, companies and brands.
Edward Bernay's would have a smug look on his face if he could see the modern world.
This. The only thing that matters, as gamers playing an MMO, is that their are other people to play with and you are having fun. Nothing else matters.
A large number of gamers have become so indoctrinated that they identify themselves by what games they play. This leads to an almost religous devotion to games, companies and brands.
Edward Bernay's would have a smug look on his face if he could see the modern world.
this is true everywhere in everything apple vs microsoft... xbox vs ps3.. coke vs pepsi ect ect... me personally i go where the fun takes me
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I agree with the idea GW2 is making a huge impact.
Let's wait until launch and the magic number. There is one actually.
If they sell more copies of GW2 than SWTOR (which looks likely), then the Videogame Industry and Financial reporters will have to take another serious looks at MMOs. You do realize thanks to Bioware, that a large portion of investors are doubting even investing in the genre?
Bioware could be the Joel Schumaker of the Batman films.
ANet could be the Chris Nolan of the Batman films.
For the sake of all future and past MMOs out there GW2 needs to be a success. I just wish the fanboys could understand that and understand the majority of the MMO community doesn't dislike GW2. Many will eventually pick it up and play it.
Can't help but notice the logical fallacies in the argument that GW2 isn't going to be successful.
If we assume (and clearly we easily can) that the number of accounts ended for GW was approx 7 mil, and use the projected initial sales from beta signup and presale data is 3mil then the total would roughly be 10 mil, guess which game that surpasses, ahem, WoW. Yeah.
What I'm saying is only way to show the players are really happy is that players actually keep playing after they created an account. And that's by buying expansions and continue their monthly sub or having a lively server or high concurrent players online.
Can't help but notice the logical fallacies in the argument that GW2 isn't going to be successful.
If we assume (and clearly we easily can) that the number of accounts ended for GW was approx 7 mil, and use the projected initial sales from beta signup and presale data is 3mil then the total would roughly be 10 mil, guess which game that surpasses, ahem, WoW. Yeah.
The number of 7 million is of purchases, not unique accounts and the 3 million number is a projection done by an economist from Korea. The only real number we have (and its pretty vague) is that in the first couple days of pre-purchase, GW2 sold over 1 million copies.
I believe that GW2 will sell very well and I hope it does cause I'm going to be playing it. As to selling 10 million copies, I just don't know; that's a lot!
Can't help but notice the logical fallacies in the argument that GW2 isn't going to be successful.
If we assume (and clearly we easily can) that the number of accounts ended for GW was approx 7 mil, and use the projected initial sales from beta signup and presale data is 3mil then the total would roughly be 10 mil, guess which game that surpasses, ahem, WoW. Yeah.
The number of 7 million is of purchases, not unique accounts and the 3 million number is a projection done by an economist from Korea. The only real number we have (and its pretty vague) is that in the first couple days of pre-purchase, GW2 sold over 1 million copies.
I believe that GW2 will sell very well and I hope it does cause I'm going to be playing it. As to selling 10 million copies, I just don't know; that's a lot!
It is unique accounts. Look above in the thread for confirmation.
Can't help but notice the logical fallacies in the argument that GW2 isn't going to be successful.
If we assume (and clearly we easily can) that the number of accounts ended for GW was approx 7 mil, and use the projected initial sales from beta signup and presale data is 3mil then the total would roughly be 10 mil, guess which game that surpasses, ahem, WoW. Yeah.
What I'm saying is only way to show the players are really happy is that players actually keep playing after they created an account. And that's by buying expansions and continue their monthly sub or having a lively server or high concurrent players online.
umm no that's what we were saying you were saying there was no way track how well GW2 will do after initial sales
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
So Trion is copying yet another feature of an existing MMO competitor? I'm stunned. Really, I am. Still waiting for those guys to have an original idea of their own.
Not a big fan of "normalization," btw. I like progression, and I like the fact that the more time you put into playing a game, the more it benefits you. Still, it may very well work for GW2, since they've designed their entire game, and all its systems, around this core concept. I don't see this working for Rift, however. Not sure how much skill actually goes into tab-target combat to begin with. And taking away progression from a mostly lobby-based PvP game like Rift seems to be a bad idea. If you are going to put everyone on equal footing, you've got to design your game that way from the get-go.
Just my two cents.
There are no original ideas. I love GW2, but I'll be the first to admit it has nothing original, any more that Rift does.
...
I like to point out it's, from my perspective,y moved somewhat back to the more open-world, non-instanced worlds of Second Generation MMO playstyles like EverQuest.
GW2 was not the first to do this, and will not be the last.
Also, didn't GW1 have it also?
We can certainrly point to past games but I believe that this recent change of heart at Trion is in direct response to what ArenaNet has done with GW2. Not to say that GW2 was the first but it is clearly making an impact on other games even before its release.
This isn't all too uncommon in the MMO genre.
Swtor announced they would be having fully voiced quests, TSW announces it a while later, everyone believed Swtor would be a massive success.
GW2 was not the first to do this, and will not be the last.
Also, didn't GW1 have it also?
We can certainrly point to past games but I believe that this recent change of heart at Trion is in direct response to what ArenaNet has done with GW2. Not to say that GW2 was the first but it is clearly making an impact on other games even before its release.
This isn't all too uncommon in the MMO genre.
Swtor announced they would be having fully voiced quests, TSW announces it a while later, everyone believed Swtor would be a massive success.
Both Rift and GW2 took the majority of their ideas and features from DAoC and WAR sooo, no surprise there.
People give GW2 too much credit. Sure, it is doing some good things. It'll probably be the first MMO I've bought since 2007. But its getting a lot of praise it doesn't deserve. But then again, all MMOs at launch do.
GW2 was not the first to do this, and will not be the last.
Also, didn't GW1 have it also?
We can certainrly point to past games but I believe that this recent change of heart at Trion is in direct response to what ArenaNet has done with GW2. Not to say that GW2 was the first but it is clearly making an impact on other games even before its release.
This isn't all too uncommon in the MMO genre.
Swtor announced they would be having fully voiced quests, TSW announces it a while later, everyone believed Swtor would be a massive success.
Both Rift and GW2 took the majority of their ideas and features from DAoC and WAR sooo, no surprise there.
People give GW2 too much credit. Sure, it is doing some good things. It'll probably be the first MMO I've bought since 2007. But its getting a lot of praise it doesn't deserve. But then again, all MMOs at launch do.
GW2 was not the first to do this, and will not be the last.
Also, didn't GW1 have it also?
We can certainrly point to past games but I believe that this recent change of heart at Trion is in direct response to what ArenaNet has done with GW2. Not to say that GW2 was the first but it is clearly making an impact on other games even before its release.
This isn't all too uncommon in the MMO genre.
Swtor announced they would be having fully voiced quests, TSW announces it a while later, everyone believed Swtor would be a massive success.
Both Rift and GW2 took the majority of their ideas and features from DAoC and WAR sooo, no surprise there.
People give GW2 too much credit. Sure, it is doing some good things. It'll probably be the first MMO I've bought since 2007. But its getting a lot of praise it doesn't deserve. But then again, all MMOs at launch do.
So what makes GW2 a mmorpg and not wow? because of the WvW?
Is Warhammer or DAOC a mmorpg to you? What games do you consider as mmorpg? Aion? Aoc? SWTOR? are those mmorpg for you?
GW2 was not the first to do this, and will not be the last.
Also, didn't GW1 have it also?
We can certainrly point to past games but I believe that this recent change of heart at Trion is in direct response to what ArenaNet has done with GW2. Not to say that GW2 was the first but it is clearly making an impact on other games even before its release.
This isn't all too uncommon in the MMO genre.
Swtor announced they would be having fully voiced quests, TSW announces it a while later, everyone believed Swtor would be a massive success.
Both Rift and GW2 took the majority of their ideas and features from DAoC and WAR sooo, no surprise there.
People give GW2 too much credit. Sure, it is doing some good things. It'll probably be the first MMO I've bought since 2007. But its getting a lot of praise it doesn't deserve. But then again, all MMOs at launch do.
Oh i dunno, they might not have been first but they did do all the programming, all of the voice overs, all of the art, all of the concept emplementation, all of the...you see where i'm going here right? No other company has put forth the effort to solve problems like this for the players, sooo exactly why shouldn't they be praised again? Because a few people on a forum page decided they weren't worthy of the brilliants that went into their project? smh, yeah, you're not worthy of praise for the hard work you did either. Whatever.../facepalm. It's like saying the nasa engineers, controllers, communicators etc etc aren't worthy of praise for landing a craft on Mars AGAIN because we've done it before.
Originally posted by laokoko Originally posted by MMOExposedjust curious,but since GW2 is the new thing now days, when will it be ok to start blaming GW2 for all the MMO genre issues?thats been on my mind for a while now.
You want to bash GW2? what's wrong with GW2. It's a game for everyone. It's only 60$ with no pay 2 win cashshop. A AAA mmorpg which don't require you to pay a sub fee.
Not to mention it have normalized pvp. Where skill matters and not how much you grind. What is there to blame about GW2? Other games failed because they suck.
lol "knee jerk" reaction much?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by Badaboom So you got SWTOR going F2P. WoW, TSW and RIFT releasing patches & expansions on or close to the GW2 release date. Guess we should start calling it the GW2 effect.
*Sigh*
This would happen regardless of it being GW2 or not. Any big time game like GW2 is going to get some type of reaction from the competition. Why is everyone surprised by this?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I gotta say that WOW has lost its MMO factor, I started to play WOW again a couple of months ago but all the players are standing in the capital citys in a que for a raid or som dungeon and the other 98% of the game is totally emty so in that perspective the game is no longer a MMO.
I played up till lvl 30 and I saw about 10-20 players in all that time the rest are just standing in citys.
So I cancelled my subscribtion and I will never return to Blizzards WOW but I started to play on a Privat server and let me tell you its a totally diffrent game. Full of world PVP, 100s of ppl everywhere I loved it and I recommed it to everybody its great.
But since this is about GW2 I got only one thing to say about that game and It's gonna rock and its gonna be the best MMO in many years to come.
Sure WOW is not gonna die why should it cant there just be a game for everyone and that is what I think is happening the MMO market is starting to shift, not every new MMO is based on how Blizzard does things anymore games are starting to get there own ideas and trying to make them more diffrent from WOW.
I love that the market is more competetiv these days and that more games are good, even F2P games have there moments these days.
Beyond the obvious timing of some MMO release dates to coincide with GW2, Trion announced today that they are implementing what they call "PvP Normalization" in their next patch. Apparently, PvP Normalization is taking away the PvP specific stat benefits from gear to make it more about player skill.
I applaud ANet for forcing other developers to re-evaluate these aging MMO concepts, but you really gotta feel sorry for all the people who spent weeks / months grinding PvP just to have their stats go *poof*.
Not sure how long you've been around Rift, but this change has been a long time coming and it had nothing to do with GW2, sorry.
There has been a huge disparity between beginning PvPers and max rank PvPer's and it was solely because of gear, not skill. Something had to be done, and Trion had been working on a fix for quite some time.
But GW2 is the (new)savior of the genre, blah, blah, blah...
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Beyond the obvious timing of some MMO release dates to coincide with GW2, Trion announced today that they are implementing what they call "PvP Normalization" in their next patch. Apparently, PvP Normalization is taking away the PvP specific stat benefits from gear to make it more about player skill.
I applaud ANet for forcing other developers to re-evaluate these aging MMO concepts, but you really gotta feel sorry for all the people who spent weeks / months grinding PvP just to have their stats go *poof*.
Not sure how long you've been around Rift, but this change has been a long time coming and it had nothing to do with GW2, sorry.
There has been a huge disparity between beginning PvPers and max rank PvPer's and it was solely because of gear, not skill. Something had to be done, and Trion had been working on a fix for quite some time.
But GW2 is the (new)savior of the genre, blah, blah, blah...
orrrrrr Guild Wars 1 and this is a continued idea from that?
Both Rift and GW2 took the majority of their ideas and features from DAoC and WAR sooo, no surprise there.
People give GW2 too much credit. Sure, it is doing some good things. It'll probably be the first MMO I've bought since 2007. But its getting a lot of praise it doesn't deserve. But then again, all MMOs at launch do.
DaoC and AC, not so much WAR really.
But I think people are giving too much credit to certain people while they miss what really makes GW2 so good: the programming. Most MMOs code sucks bigtime and that includes DaoC, AC and WAR.
LOTRO and WOW have solid programming enough but they are the only 2. GW3 is the third really well coded MMO and you need good coding to make a real hit game.
LOTROs problem really was that it was too similar to Wow and released too soon after it.
Rift have at least so-so coding (which still is miles better than most MMOs) and that is why it did so good as it had.
Of course it is not all about the coding, a game needs more but good code is the minimum requirement of a great game.
I gotta say that WOW has lost its MMO factor, I started to play WOW again a couple of months ago but all the players are standing in the capital citys in a que for a raid or som dungeon and the other 98% of the game is totally emty so in that perspective the game is no longer a MMO.
I played up till lvl 30 and I saw about 10-20 players in all that time the rest are just standing in citys.
So I cancelled my subscribtion and I will never return to Blizzards WOW but I started to play on a Privat server and let me tell you its a totally diffrent game. Full of world PVP, 100s of ppl everywhere I loved it and I recommed it to everybody its great.
But since this is about GW2 I got only one thing to say about that game and It's gonna rock and its gonna be the best MMO in many years to come.
Sure WOW is not gonna die why should it cant there just be a game for everyone and that is what I think is happening the MMO market is starting to shift, not every new MMO is based on how Blizzard does things anymore games are starting to get there own ideas and trying to make them more diffrent from WOW.
I love that the market is more competetiv these days and that more games are good, even F2P games have there moments these days.
// Beelze
I do agree with its lost the mmo heart, but one of the major reasons you won't see anyone while levelling is because it's now mostly phased based questing, to give the illusion of a changing world.
Originally posted by Badaboom So you got SWTOR going F2P. WoW, TSW and RIFT releasing patches & expansions on or close to the GW2 release date. Guess we should start calling it the GW2 effect.
Comments
i wouldn't go that far.. as a gamer it should be important to you how well your games does.. better the game does more money company will have to put out content... its all well and good if you have people to play with but if the game isn't doing well it could end up going the route of SWG or end up like many of these other games with almost no new content over long periods of time.. SWG still had a number of people activley playing when it closed down.. just not enough for them to keep it going.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
That's true. I was kind of alluding to that by saying as long as you have people to play with (meaning full servers).
Playing a game should alway's be fun first. Here's a good example from my experience's. I was bored of WoW and GW1 one day so decided to go check out pc game's at my local gamestop. They had LOTRO MoM CE for 20$ or EQ1 i think with all 10 expac's for 20$. Well I thought the LOTRO book's and movie's were great, so I grabbed LOTRO . Got home installed made my account, finally got into the game and decided to make a short fat hobbit minstril probably my favorite chr i've made in any game. Well then turbine get's bought out by WB and announce's it's plan to go F2P. Long story short imho the game has gone down the crapper since the move to F2P. Once I stopped having fun, I left.
Now with GW2, I have the fun of going were the wind take's me, and hopefully it'll last for year's.
P.S. Sorry about my rambling
Can't help but notice the logical fallacies in the argument that GW2 isn't going to be successful.
If we assume (and clearly we easily can) that the number of accounts ended for GW was approx 7 mil, and use the projected initial sales from beta signup and presale data is 3mil then the total would roughly be 10 mil, guess which game that surpasses, ahem, WoW. Yeah.
A large number of gamers have become so indoctrinated that they identify themselves by what games they play. This leads to an almost religous devotion to games, companies and brands.
Edward Bernay's would have a smug look on his face if he could see the modern world.
this is true everywhere in everything apple vs microsoft... xbox vs ps3.. coke vs pepsi ect ect... me personally i go where the fun takes me
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I agree with the idea GW2 is making a huge impact.
Let's wait until launch and the magic number. There is one actually.
If they sell more copies of GW2 than SWTOR (which looks likely), then the Videogame Industry and Financial reporters will have to take another serious looks at MMOs. You do realize thanks to Bioware, that a large portion of investors are doubting even investing in the genre?
Bioware could be the Joel Schumaker of the Batman films.
ANet could be the Chris Nolan of the Batman films.
For the sake of all future and past MMOs out there GW2 needs to be a success. I just wish the fanboys could understand that and understand the majority of the MMO community doesn't dislike GW2. Many will eventually pick it up and play it.
What I'm saying is only way to show the players are really happy is that players actually keep playing after they created an account. And that's by buying expansions and continue their monthly sub or having a lively server or high concurrent players online.
The number of 7 million is of purchases, not unique accounts and the 3 million number is a projection done by an economist from Korea. The only real number we have (and its pretty vague) is that in the first couple days of pre-purchase, GW2 sold over 1 million copies.
I believe that GW2 will sell very well and I hope it does cause I'm going to be playing it. As to selling 10 million copies, I just don't know; that's a lot!
It is unique accounts. Look above in the thread for confirmation.
umm no that's what we were saying you were saying there was no way track how well GW2 will do after initial sales
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I like to point out it's, from my perspective,y moved somewhat back to the more open-world, non-instanced worlds of Second Generation MMO playstyles like EverQuest.
This isn't all too uncommon in the MMO genre.
Swtor announced they would be having fully voiced quests, TSW announces it a while later, everyone believed Swtor would be a massive success.
Both Rift and GW2 took the majority of their ideas and features from DAoC and WAR sooo, no surprise there.
People give GW2 too much credit. Sure, it is doing some good things. It'll probably be the first MMO I've bought since 2007. But its getting a lot of praise it doesn't deserve. But then again, all MMOs at launch do.
How did you connect the dots from DAoC to Rift ?
So what makes GW2 a mmorpg and not wow? because of the WvW?
Is Warhammer or DAOC a mmorpg to you? What games do you consider as mmorpg? Aion? Aoc? SWTOR? are those mmorpg for you?
I dont' get your argument in the general forum.
Oh i dunno, they might not have been first but they did do all the programming, all of the voice overs, all of the art, all of the concept emplementation, all of the...you see where i'm going here right? No other company has put forth the effort to solve problems like this for the players, sooo exactly why shouldn't they be praised again? Because a few people on a forum page decided they weren't worthy of the brilliants that went into their project? smh, yeah, you're not worthy of praise for the hard work you did either. Whatever.../facepalm. It's like saying the nasa engineers, controllers, communicators etc etc aren't worthy of praise for landing a craft on Mars AGAIN because we've done it before.
Not to mention it have normalized pvp. Where skill matters and not how much you grind. What is there to blame about GW2? Other games failed because they suck.
lol "knee jerk" reaction much?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
*Sigh*
This would happen regardless of it being GW2 or not. Any big time game like GW2 is going to get some type of reaction from the competition. Why is everyone surprised by this?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I gotta say that WOW has lost its MMO factor, I started to play WOW again a couple of months ago but all the players are standing in the capital citys in a que for a raid or som dungeon and the other 98% of the game is totally emty so in that perspective the game is no longer a MMO.
I played up till lvl 30 and I saw about 10-20 players in all that time the rest are just standing in citys.
So I cancelled my subscribtion and I will never return to Blizzards WOW but I started to play on a Privat server and let me tell you its a totally diffrent game. Full of world PVP, 100s of ppl everywhere I loved it and I recommed it to everybody its great.
But since this is about GW2 I got only one thing to say about that game and It's gonna rock and its gonna be the best MMO in many years to come.
Sure WOW is not gonna die why should it cant there just be a game for everyone and that is what I think is happening the MMO market is starting to shift, not every new MMO is based on how Blizzard does things anymore games are starting to get there own ideas and trying to make them more diffrent from WOW.
I love that the market is more competetiv these days and that more games are good, even F2P games have there moments these days.
// Beelze
Not sure how long you've been around Rift, but this change has been a long time coming and it had nothing to do with GW2, sorry.
There has been a huge disparity between beginning PvPers and max rank PvPer's and it was solely because of gear, not skill. Something had to be done, and Trion had been working on a fix for quite some time.
But GW2 is the (new)savior of the genre, blah, blah, blah...
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
orrrrrr Guild Wars 1 and this is a continued idea from that?
DaoC and AC, not so much WAR really.
But I think people are giving too much credit to certain people while they miss what really makes GW2 so good: the programming. Most MMOs code sucks bigtime and that includes DaoC, AC and WAR.
LOTRO and WOW have solid programming enough but they are the only 2. GW3 is the third really well coded MMO and you need good coding to make a real hit game.
LOTROs problem really was that it was too similar to Wow and released too soon after it.
Rift have at least so-so coding (which still is miles better than most MMOs) and that is why it did so good as it had.
Of course it is not all about the coding, a game needs more but good code is the minimum requirement of a great game.
I do agree with its lost the mmo heart, but one of the major reasons you won't see anyone while levelling is because it's now mostly phased based questing, to give the illusion of a changing world.
I knew it was only a matter of time.