"If a function in a game is "broken" due to an oversight by coders and/or game developers, and the flaw is "exercised" by some portion of the player base, it is the developers' responsibility to fix said flaw so the exploitation ceases."
Gamers traditionally call this "constructive use of game mechanics", skewed or otherwise. Is it "grey area" of morality? Of course it is but...
The developers have now effectively STOLEN $60 from thousands of people (real money, not roll-back game money) when the mistake was theirs.
It doesn't matter how you shape it. This game company are now not only incompetant, but also theives. I'm so glad, so glad, I didn't buy this retail. ANet just really pissed off thousands of opportunists with half a brain. Very bad things will come of this.
actually you are wrong, game development staff can never monitor every single line of code in a game before launch its almost physically impossible, hense why games have so many alpha/beta tests for more people to test things (actual tests)
that being said, any exploitable issue in a game should be reported and not abused. doesnt matter if its a player generated bug (like a player learns how to click in to a impassible item) or a game code bug (a lv 1 monster dropping 1billion gold or an item that they shouldnt drop period)
now you can argue its the games fault for having that, and the player shouldnt be banned for it, BUT all games have a ToS that states you will not abuse the game code in any fashion doing so is grounds for account ban, as well players are expected to report issues to the support so it can be fixed.
the thread OP is related to a group of people openly found to be abusing a bug they found, for their own advantage there is no evidence that they reported it or avoided using it. so they were punished for it. as per the ToS they agreed when they made the account.
as afor stealing money, no one owns the game account but Anet.. so they paid to use the account, and broke the rules. Anet didnt steal anything they just denied access to it on grounds of game code abuse which is totally within the rights of Anet to do... dont want to waste 60 bucks.. dont cheat in a game and get caught... pretty simple even these half brainers should know how to not cheat
Sure, if some seriously innocent people got banned, that would be annoying. But I can imagine many exploiters crying "but I didn't do anything!".
Yes, the bug was created by Anet. But if you exploit it on purpose, then you are harmful for the game and the community, and they have all rights to remove you from the game.
I'm starting to get more respect for ANet. Sorry but exploiting deserves a ban. Sorry that there is finally a company which isn't afraid to take action.
Originally posted by Furrballs Anet must be completely batty, any exploitable flaws in game design are completely their fault, what should happen is just removing the exploited items gained and moving on, its just the nature of people to exploit something in a GAME if they can, perma bans for customers that just paid them $60+ is just insane and is incredibly bad business practice..
You have no clue what you are talking about, Anet fault come from code error, but the exploit, hence exploit game mechanism do come from players, and exploit are bannable offense in every mmo and you know it perfectly well. Be happy they gave you a way to deal with your own fault as you should have give them a way to deal with it (hence report the code error without exploiting it).
Also the quote come from reddit for people that like real source :
Another great decision done to avoid this game, despite the massive hype. What a company does when it has its own problems? Bans its customers, rather than fix its issues. There are ways and means you can properly fix an exploit without anyone being harmed cuz of it, like doing a rollback to those accounts or removing the profits earned.
On top of that permaban without prior violations on your account remainds me of the old SOE days with SWG Pre-CU. But we all know how that ended, and they begged getting as many subs back in the game with the collapse after NGE.
You knew someone would complain about them doing the right thing and setting the proper preedent. Something the other companies are too afraid to do (Blizzard) or too incompetent to even catch (Bioware).
Of course ArenaNet permabans. If you're exploiting you're getting permabanned, period. The people who only exploited a bit got 72 hour bans. Even botters only got 72 hour bans. The people that were permabanned knew they were exploiting, so I don't expect anyone to really come crying over it.
I'd have gone for permabans for the botters straight away in Anet's stead, but they're just being too nice. If however you think you'll be exploiting to your hearts content in GW2, you'll get yours eventually.
No one seems to be reading my post... The people aren't permabanned it has been reduced to 3 days if they submit a ticket. Which seems to make more sense for purchasing cheap weapons, exploiting yes, but more on the opportunist side rather then malicious intent.
Originally posted by RelytDnegel No one seems to be reading my post... The people aren't permabanned it has been reduced to 3 days if they submit a ticket. Which seems to make more sense for purchasing cheap weapons, exploiting yes, but more on the opportunist side rather then malicious intent.
That doesn't matter, knowingly exploiting is knowingly exploiting. Nuff said.
Originally posted by RelytDnegel No one seems to be reading my post... The people aren't permabanned it has been reduced to 3 days if they submit a ticket. Which seems to make more sense for purchasing cheap weapons, exploiting yes, but more on the opportunist side rather then malicious intent.
That doesn't matter, knowingly exploiting is knowingly exploiting. Nuff said.
Eh it just depends on the developer as I believe most people would take advantage of a situation like this, although I am a pessimist, no matter how self righteous you are. I like the hard stance they are taking though, unlike SWTOR with the Empire being able to achieve insane PvP ranks/gear in hours due to a bug that should take months and thousands of games to achieve. Bioware didn't roll back, didn't ban, just did nothing really. It's a good sign Anet are more competent in this area.
So Anet banned people for buying items? - no explotes in play as far as I can see ANet messed up with the vender price, Easy way for Anet to lower the stress on the servers and get those who were banned to hand over another $50. Business is business even if it is underhanded.
It seems a little harsh to me since the game just came out two days ago. I would have been happy with a stern warning about it.
In general I'd be fine with a ban for such things, but I can see how people would be surprised since MMOs typically don't ban over this sort of behavior. However, having a known policy for banning over significant exploitation will keep costs down. Imagine this had gone on for a couple days and trades had been done and the items spread over a server. Fixing that mess would have been a nightmare.
The real reason why A.Net is so active with the bannings is to avoid any economical exploits that would mess up the gold-gem trade.
This said it's nice to see a developer paying attention.
It shows they didn't have the insight to incorporate effective data collection and roll-back capability. Instead they make sweeping bans. This is a sign of poor design and an effort to cover their own mistakes by denying consumers their $60 product.
If this is the case they should admit it and freely refund said banned consumers' investment.
I'm starting to think you were one of the ones banned.
So early in the product life, I think you can at least in Europe ask for a refund, especially if you bought it online in the UK , the distance sales act would give you enough grounds to just have a refund on your 50 quid you spent. Too bad even this sweeping ban is not gonna remove any measurable amount of kids and cheaters and "bad" people as they have been described in this thread.
I think ANet was too harsh in this occasion, I am for banning people but the fact that it was just essentially going up to a vendor and buying the items, they should have blocked that vendor straight away and rolled back any items that anyone bought for the lower price and refund the karma ( or not refund it ) and in the extreme cases where people have bought thousands of items to resell give out a temporary ban.
A straight permanent ban is grossly shifting the blame to the consumer when ANet is partially to blame for the mistake.
If you got ban just get a refund it has only been 2 days so it should be straight forward.
Originally posted by expresso So Anet banned people for buying items? - no explotes in play as far as I can see ANet messed up with the vender price, Easy way for Anet to lower the stress on the servers and get those who were banned to hand over another $50. Business is business even if it is underhanded.
Originally posted by expresso So Anet banned people for buying items? - no explotes in play as far as I can see ANet messed up with the vender price, Easy way for Anet to lower the stress on the servers and get those who were banned to hand over another $50. Business is business even if it is underhanded.
they resold it all for alot of money
But still within the bounds and rules of the game. Anet should bannned themselves for 3 days
It seems a little harsh to me since the game just came out two days ago. I would have been happy with a stern warning about it.
In general I'd be fine with a ban for such things, but I can see how people would be surprised since MMOs typically don't ban over this sort of behavior. However, having a known policy for banning over significant exploitation will keep costs down. Imagine this had gone on for a couple days and trades had been done and the items spread over a server. Fixing that mess would have been a nightmare.
its in the tos pretty clearly
Oh who the heck cares about the TOS? Are you really tossing that out as something the vast majority of people read through?
This isn't about whether Anet has the right to ban them. They have a lot of leeway with how they decide to permanently ban people. But having the legal right to do something doesn't make it a reasonable or sensible action.
I do feel a punitive measure is in order. Banning just seems harsh. Though it seems less harsh after I read that the items were listed at full price, and it was only after buying them these people realized how cheap they were going for...and then bought hundreds or more. Still, banning after the game has only been officially out for two days is a bit much. I think showing a degree of leniency in this early stage makes sense.
Imho, Anet should have said they were giving a 3-day ban for this behavior and would do the same for anything similar in the first month (or even six months). After that, such behavior would be met with a ban.
Originally posted by Lokomotiv So EULA actually means something in Anet.
By that logic, people should also read their consumer rights better, and as soon as they couldnt login, parts of the game werent working ( AH, Party System, trading, bugged DEs ), there should have been a mass of refunds on the first day.
Thats what would happen if you or a company decides to disregard what is reasonable and what is unreasonable and porportional. What you are implying with your statement makes no sense and has no use in the real world
Originally posted by Lokomotiv So EULA actually means something in Anet.
By that logic, people should also read their consumer rights better, and as soon as they couldnt login, parts of the game werent working ( AH, Party System, trading, bugged DEs ), there should have been a mass of refunds on the first day.
Thats what would happen if you or a company decides to disregard what is reasonable and what is unreasonable and porportional. Your statement makes no sense and has no use in the real world
You'd have to show a court that MMORPGs launched flawlessly for your arguement to hold any weight.
Otherwise launch issues are reasonable in a legal sense.
Your statement makes sense, but its just flat wrong.
Comments
Good work ANet!
I always said drastic measures should be taken against any kind of exploiters, cheaters...and some others.
Thats why P2P games suck: 15$ is 15$, so they very rarely ban anyone and exploiters and cheaters get away all the time.
It makes me want to play GW2 even more.
actually you are wrong, game development staff can never monitor every single line of code in a game before launch its almost physically impossible, hense why games have so many alpha/beta tests for more people to test things (actual tests)
that being said, any exploitable issue in a game should be reported and not abused. doesnt matter if its a player generated bug (like a player learns how to click in to a impassible item) or a game code bug (a lv 1 monster dropping 1billion gold or an item that they shouldnt drop period)
now you can argue its the games fault for having that, and the player shouldnt be banned for it, BUT all games have a ToS that states you will not abuse the game code in any fashion doing so is grounds for account ban, as well players are expected to report issues to the support so it can be fixed.
the thread OP is related to a group of people openly found to be abusing a bug they found, for their own advantage there is no evidence that they reported it or avoided using it. so they were punished for it. as per the ToS they agreed when they made the account.
as afor stealing money, no one owns the game account but Anet.. so they paid to use the account, and broke the rules. Anet didnt steal anything they just denied access to it on grounds of game code abuse which is totally within the rights of Anet to do... dont want to waste 60 bucks.. dont cheat in a game and get caught... pretty simple even these half brainers should know how to not cheat
Sorry.
Not bad.
Sure, if some seriously innocent people got banned, that would be annoying. But I can imagine many exploiters crying "but I didn't do anything!".
Yes, the bug was created by Anet. But if you exploit it on purpose, then you are harmful for the game and the community, and they have all rights to remove you from the game.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
You have no clue what you are talking about, Anet fault come from code error, but the exploit, hence exploit game mechanism do come from players, and exploit are bannable offense in every mmo and you know it perfectly well. Be happy they gave you a way to deal with your own fault as you should have give them a way to deal with it (hence report the code error without exploiting it).
Also the quote come from reddit for people that like real source :
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z44ml/karma_weapons_exploit/
You knew someone would complain about them doing the right thing and setting the proper preedent. Something the other companies are too afraid to do (Blizzard) or too incompetent to even catch (Bioware).
Of course ArenaNet permabans. If you're exploiting you're getting permabanned, period. The people who only exploited a bit got 72 hour bans. Even botters only got 72 hour bans. The people that were permabanned knew they were exploiting, so I don't expect anyone to really come crying over it.
I'd have gone for permabans for the botters straight away in Anet's stead, but they're just being too nice. If however you think you'll be exploiting to your hearts content in GW2, you'll get yours eventually.
Hodor!
Safehouse Gaming up and running at: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnKd0Hk85CQ_N04Ae7v5zZg
That doesn't matter, knowingly exploiting is knowingly exploiting. Nuff said.
Eh it just depends on the developer as I believe most people would take advantage of a situation like this, although I am a pessimist, no matter how self righteous you are. I like the hard stance they are taking though, unlike SWTOR with the Empire being able to achieve insane PvP ranks/gear in hours due to a bug that should take months and thousands of games to achieve. Bioware didn't roll back, didn't ban, just did nothing really. It's a good sign Anet are more competent in this area.
Safehouse Gaming up and running at: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnKd0Hk85CQ_N04Ae7v5zZg
its in the tos pretty clearly
So early in the product life, I think you can at least in Europe ask for a refund, especially if you bought it online in the UK , the distance sales act would give you enough grounds to just have a refund on your 50 quid you spent. Too bad even this sweeping ban is not gonna remove any measurable amount of kids and cheaters and "bad" people as they have been described in this thread.
I think ANet was too harsh in this occasion, I am for banning people but the fact that it was just essentially going up to a vendor and buying the items, they should have blocked that vendor straight away and rolled back any items that anyone bought for the lower price and refund the karma ( or not refund it ) and in the extreme cases where people have bought thousands of items to resell give out a temporary ban.
A straight permanent ban is grossly shifting the blame to the consumer when ANet is partially to blame for the mistake.
If you got ban just get a refund it has only been 2 days so it should be straight forward.
they resold it all for alot of money
But still within the bounds and rules of the game. Anet should bannned themselves for 3 days
I think perma-banning is a bit harsh.
A 3-day ban, followed by removal of bought items would probably be enough.
Oh who the heck cares about the TOS? Are you really tossing that out as something the vast majority of people read through?
This isn't about whether Anet has the right to ban them. They have a lot of leeway with how they decide to permanently ban people. But having the legal right to do something doesn't make it a reasonable or sensible action.
I do feel a punitive measure is in order. Banning just seems harsh. Though it seems less harsh after I read that the items were listed at full price, and it was only after buying them these people realized how cheap they were going for...and then bought hundreds or more. Still, banning after the game has only been officially out for two days is a bit much. I think showing a degree of leniency in this early stage makes sense.
Imho, Anet should have said they were giving a 3-day ban for this behavior and would do the same for anything similar in the first month (or even six months). After that, such behavior would be met with a ban.
By that logic, people should also read their consumer rights better, and as soon as they couldnt login, parts of the game werent working ( AH, Party System, trading, bugged DEs ), there should have been a mass of refunds on the first day.
Thats what would happen if you or a company decides to disregard what is reasonable and what is unreasonable and porportional. What you are implying with your statement makes no sense and has no use in the real world
The ethical loops you have to do to justify exploiting in a game is beyond me....
"I found an exploit and abused it!!! I shouldn't get banned they should code better!!!"
Or you could be a decent human being.....
Oh wait.
You'd have to show a court that MMORPGs launched flawlessly for your arguement to hold any weight.
Otherwise launch issues are reasonable in a legal sense.
Your statement makes sense, but its just flat wrong.