There are no raids... can you live with that?

Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally.  It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1.  they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2.   knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud.  This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

stevebombsquad

Originally posted by Celcius

Originally posted by danbosk0

Originally posted by Celcius

I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

This whole post is wrong.  Don't say "ton" and "least" and "most" when you're only using yourself and your 3 friends as a sample group.  And 3 million people may have bought GW2, but that doesn't mean that mean even half that many people sitll log on.  

Ironic how you counter me making numbers up based on information I have seen on this site, mmo-champion,massively,ect  by doing the same thing. No one knows how many people are playing. All I know, along with people who actually play the game, is that the servers are active as they ever have been. I see just as many people in zones now as I did at launch. Hell, some zones I see MORE people. The fact is that those 3 million don't need to be playing. Just look at NC Soft reports, GW2 is making them more money then anything else atm. Considering how big of a publisher NC Soft is, and how important it is for them to keep investors, I would say they have to be doing pretty well based on these reports. I would take something said in an investor meeting with far more weight then something some guy on an MMO site with notoriously jaded MMO has beens has to say. 

Most people playing MMOs don't even hit max level. This isn't something I made up. It is fairly obvious when you look at older MMOs and the population is spread so thin that guilds try to recuit people who are not even max level yet. Hell, most people quit WoW before level 10. http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/02/11/70-of-trial-players-quit-wow-before-level-10/

Did I mention that there is a gw2 patch today with a good amount of content? They keep up this monthly trend very well for a dying game. I would like to thank all the "raiders" in this thread who contributed towards buying GW2 to support my content! Keep buying into games that you think are going to be something they are not and you will surely find yourself one you like some day! You vote with your wallets children.

Are you sure that you ahve logged in recently? That isn't what I am finding nor most of the other people posting here and on Massively talking about dead servers. The population isn't even close to what it was at launch. They might have sold 3 million copies, but there isn't anywhere near that playing the game anymore. Even the numbers on XFire and Raptr have bottomed out recently. The game isn't bad, but it definitely doesn't have the longevity for a lot of people that you make it out to have. WoW actually had more people playing this far into its lifecycle and continued to grow. GW2 is like the rest of the post WoW MMOs. It just didn't have the staying power or catch to keep a lot of people playing. 

Distopia

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally.  It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1.  they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2.   knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

Your comparison is off as a PVPer could be putting just as much time and effort in.

Livnthedream

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally.  It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1.  they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2.   knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

Your comparison is off as a PVPer could be putting just as much time and effort in.

How is it wrong? I have no issue with pvpers being rewarded aslong as its based on skill and not time served. High end arena, those guys totally deserve their gear, arguably so do rbgs. But crafters or solo players, not so much. Its far too easy and tends to unbalance skill based gameplay. The smaller the group, the easier the content is. Less teamwork, and less strategy are required by defualt.

Distopia

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally.  It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1.  they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2.   knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

Your comparison is off as a PVPer could be putting just as much time and effort in.

How is it wrong? I have no issue with pvpers being rewarded aslong as its based on skill and not time served. High end arena, those guys totally deserve their gear, arguably so do rbgs. But crafters or solo players, not so much. Its far too easy and tends to unbalance skill based gameplay. The smaller the group, the easier the content is. Less teamwork, and less strategy are required by defualt.

Firstly even a crafter can put just as much time and effort into a game, especially considering the system ZEN has been talking up. The game also has a lot of focus on PVP at end-game. These two playstyles could be putting in a lot of "overtime" to help support the systems within the game.

Common quester's as it was put earlier, really don't stand out as a unique playstyle, as just about everyone does quests in these games, that's the main leveling/progression route, so i'll ignore them.

However for the other two you painted as doing less while bitching for more, it's simply not a fair comparison, their paths should be just as rewarding to take.

As a side note. His point wasn't about taking things away from raiders, it was that raiders shouldn't get exclusive access to more than everyone else, there should be a balance, otherwise other playstyles are diminished by design.

 

 

Livnthedream

Originally posted by Distopia

Firstly even a crafter can put just as much time and effort into a game, especially considering the system ZEN has been talking up. The game also has a lot of focus on PVP at end-game. These two playstyles could be putting in a lot of "overtime" to help support the systems within the game.

No. Crafters may put in the same amount of time, but the actual effort is nowhere near the same. Running around grabbing stuff off the ground and clicking combine is nowhere near as much effort required as even a couple of people having to work together as a team. Neither is zerging. This is the issue.

Common quester's as it was put earlier, really don't stand out as a unique playstyle, as just about everyone does quests in these games, that's the main leveling/progression route, so i'll ignore them.

Thats not really accurate either though. Its all about the path of least resistance. If questing is the best xp, then what is what will be done. On the flip side, if just grinding mobs gives you a significant amount more, that is what the majority will do, especially after the numbers get published and it dissiminates through the ranks.

However for the other two you painted as doing less while bitching for more, it's simply not a fair comparison, their paths should be just as rewarding to take.

As a side note. His point wasn't about taking things away from raiders, it was that raiders shouldn't get exclusive access to more than everyone else, there should be a balance, otherwise other playstyles are diminished by design.

Again, I disagree. Skill should be rewarded > time spent. Afking for gear in Cyrodil is not my idea of a good time. Which is exactly the problem. If you make everything "equal" then I will just craft my set of +5 plate of awesomeness, and then end up facerolling whatever "challenging" content they decide to put out. And yes, it will be facerolled cause if they require that level of gear to begin with you hit 2 major issues. The "casuals" will throw a temper tantrum because OMG ITS GATED!! The other part Conan said best, "Crush your enemies (the competition of defeating the challenge), See them driven before you (the recognition of being the best), and hearing the lamentations of their women (taking what they hold dearest and making it yours)". Pvpers are getting that last bit with the buff they receive when they get crowned emporer. Pver's need something similar. Whether they want to handle it through loot itself as has been traditionally done, or through another means, we need effective compensation for being awesome.

Vorthanion

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

It's about different styles of content being treated equally.  It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1.  they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2.   knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.

So in other words they would not feel so bad about topping out in their respective playstyle if others did not get shinies. I guess you feel just as pissy about that guy working over time getting paid more than you do too huh?

You're being intentionally obtuse.  You know darn well all other play styles top out long before raiders do.

Vorthanion

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud.  This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content?  Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Sephiroso

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud.  This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content?  Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

 

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

triphex

Im personally good with no raid content, as I dont like wating for random people to use the can, or go get food, or go smoke( the worst thing to wait for) while you just want to get the crapass raid over with. waiting on a bunch of people just plain sucks. and even worse is when you are in a highend raiding guild and you have to log on at a certain time to get your spot in a raid. I personally dont want to have a scedule for my fun. I want to log on, have a good time, and when my good time is done. not stay online beating my head against some stupid scripted boss fight waiting for the slow people to figgure out not to stand in the bright red circle.

Sephiroso

Originally posted by triphex
Im personally good with no raid content, as I dont like wating for random people to use the can, or go get food, or go smoke( the worst thing to wait for) while you just want to get the crapass raid over with. waiting on a bunch of people just plain sucks. and even worse is when you are in a highend raiding guild and you have to log on at a certain time to get your spot in a raid. I personally dont want to have a scedule for my fun. I want to log on, have a good time, and og when my good time is done. not stay online beating my head against some stupid scripted boss fight waiting for the slow people to figgure out not to stand in the bright red circle.

you say you don't want to have to wait on random people for stupid reasons and just get the raid done, and at the same time don't want to make the minor sacrifice of logging in at a set time so people know to be ready by x-time so they WONT be going afk for stupid reasons so you can get the raid done.

 

i like that logic.

SupportPlayerMM

All I need is public events, PvP, Multiple Quest Line, Side Quests, and other worldly objectives and i'm good. Faction objectives and such will keep me busy having much more fun than wasting a weekend for a "maybe" piece of gear.

Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

You're being intentionally obtuse.  You know darn well all other play styles top out long before raiders do.

You mean like rp? ROFL.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content?  Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

The only studio that I am aware of that actually releases those sorts of metrics is EVE, and that is mostly due to Icelandic law. Many studio's will not release "total" numbers because of the effects and conclusions that can be drawn that leads to stock dips etc. Its why Blizzard always releases its numbers in "total" instead of releasing East+West. I mean even that artical linked earlier (I have used it too) about 30% of toons not making it past level 10 is horribly flawed. It does not take into account farmer toons that were being used for advertising. Do you not remember the 20 toon trains that would port to major cities and die in the pattern spelling out the web address? That alone is 10k toons per week that never got past level 5!

Livnthedream

Originally posted by SupportPlayerMM
All I need is public events, PvP, Multiple Quest Line, Side Quests, and other worldly objectives and i'm good. Faction objectives and such will keep me busy having much more fun than wasting a weekend for a "maybe" piece of gear.

See, this is the problem. The point of the raid is not the gear. Gear is part of it (everyone wants to get paid) but the point is the camraderie. Its about the team spirit. PUGS are what has killed raiding.

shalissar

Originally posted by Vembumees

I am really hyped about this game, but if it will indeed include no endgame raid content then I won't ever touch it and neither will nobody I know, because I won't be telling them about the game. And I am one such person out of probably a hundred thousand. Why? Because I am a hardcore gamer and I will be max level in probably less than a week and if it really has no endgame raiding then really I probably will be playing something else a month later and without any new content coming up, will never touch the game again.

Ugh, good riddance to content locusts imo. I've seen pve raiders ruin two of my favorite mmorpgs and I really hope ESO sticks to their guns on this one. These so called "hardcore" bingers will NEVER be happy unless they have a feeding tube of big monsters to sit around and dodge aoes with and often to the detriment of every other aspect of the game.

No, no, and no. Get out. There are plenty of games that already cater to your glued to the seat for five hours straight, scheduled whining on TS gaming lifestyle.

Edit: Putting in the admission that I do not mind if raids and group based pve content is put in the game from the get-go. My problem is with the attitude and self-entitlement of some of these hardcore raiders who whine and stomp their feet endlessly about the lack of endgame content that they have sat on their rears steamrolling through in short order- they don't care if the main focus of the game was pvp/sandbox oriented in the first place, they want more bosses, more progression, more loot, and they want them NOW!

Tired of it.

mysticjbyrd

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud.  This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content?  Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

 

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

This is absolute fact.  Especially since the implementation of LFR.  I would be shocked if the exact opposite weren't true, and 25% of accounts didn't do raids.  Heck probably less than that.

Emrendil

I'm fine with 5m dungeons, but having raids is another plus.

Eol-

I LOVE the fact that there is no raiding per se. The WoW model of end-game raids being the be-all and end-all is not a good thing for many players, IMO. A few players/guilds figure out how to do the raid, and then the other 99% get to 'stand there, do this, dont do this, move on, rinse and repeat'. MMOs can be so much more than that; it takes a lot of the creativity and individualism out of end-game play IMO. I dont mind others doing raids but I dont see why raids should get give better loot than solo/small group encounters of great difficulty, or PvP/AvA loot. Just because WoW did it that way and many players learned to play MMOs based on that, doesnt make it best, or necessary. Its great IMO that ESO will offer an alternative to the WoW endgame.

Eol-

Originally posted by mysticjbyrd

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud.  This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content?  Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

 

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

This is absolute fact.  Especially since the implementation of LFR.  I would be shocked if the exact opposite weren't true, and 25% of accounts didn't do raids.  Heck probably less than that.

No its not fact. The raid end-game is there because some players expect it (due to WoW) and because most games do not offer an alternative end-game model. ESO is trying to offer an alternative, which IMO is a great idea. And BTW, its not true that 25% of players do the hardest end-game raids. A much smaller player base does them. Usually the game loses many of its more casual players by then, who quit after levelling up or level an alt instead of end-game raids.  I understand more WoW players do the raids now, but only because they have watered them down and made them more accessible to more players other than the hard-core.

Wraithone

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Vorthanion

The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud.  This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.

That is completely false. More people raid (especially at a high level) on only a single, or sometimes 2 toons, though many of them have many many alts. That is the problem with guaging by percent of characters instead of percent of accounts.

If that were the case, then why don't more developers reveal this information in order to sell their penchant for raid content?  Why reveal it in the way they have so far, when they usually try to reveal things in the best light possible to justify their reasons for focusing on specific content for end game.

Why don't you ask them? Most developers are stupid in the first place. Case in point to all the WoW clones that fail to capture what made WoW a success and continue to put out utter crap year after year.

 

And to throw your tactic right back at you. Why do developers continue to make raiding a big deal and continue to spend so much time and effort into designing new and more raids if only such a small portion of their players ever experience it? Obviously because a hell of a lot more than 25% people experience the raids.

I'd not say stupid, as much as inexperienced in dealing with all of the variables involved.  Not to mention, that its typically the suits who make many of the decisions that result in clones.  The suits are typically the direct representatives of the investors (or publisher), and tend to be quite risk adverse.  Thus they look at what has been a success before, and attempt to follow it. Its ironic, that such a focus tends to result in one failed game after another.

As for raiding, I suspect that one would find that games that have a heavy raid focus, tend to have head Dev's or a raiding faction, driving the internal development policy focus.  Even though only a small fraction of the general player base has any real interest in raiding.  Look at WoW's attempt to spread raiding to a larger percentage of their player base, with the LFR system, as an example.

 

Arthasm

Sorry if this was posted:

There is no Raiding, but players who enjoy raiding will get their fix with 50+ and 50++ content, open dungeons, dungeon extensions and adventure zones.

Source: http://shadowedmare.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-at-pax-overview-day-two/

Also, on link above you have sum up from PAX.

Iselin

Originally posted by morbidlymystic

Faming mats, crafting, and pvp are your idea of endgame?  Well eve already has that endgame, so how is this revolutionary?   In fact, just about every game has those mechanics...yet they aren't considered end game by anyone.

 

The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available.  The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids.   If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say.  Its just sad.

 

Also with LFR basically everyone can, and most do do the raids.  They might not be in heroic, but they shouldn't be doing heroic.  That is a mode too hard for them, and there is nothing wrong with that.   Actually, even heroic raids get nerfed to where casuals can do it at the end of the expansions.  You obviously have no idea what you are talking about!  You are just whining, because you can't do the raids at the same time as the best guilds can.   Why are you entitiled do to something at the same time and rate as a group who plays much better than you?  Makes no sense in life in general.

What other "real" endgame content is there? You said "like raids" which I take to mean that raids are an example of one type of endgame content. And you ruled out farming mats, crafting and PVP--apparently that's not real endgame content....so please enlighten us with your idea of all the other real endgame content...which are like raids but not raids.

Dying to know.

azarhal

Originally posted by morbidlymystic

The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available.  The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids.   If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say.  Its just sad.

SWTOR had raiding at release, I don't think you comparison is working here.

danwest58

Alls I see is people who dont like raiding poiting out all the negatives of raiding.  The truth is If you dont like raiding tough dont raid.  Too many people equate Raiding with 40 man groups, hard boss encounters that take months to master and people yelling at them.  Those days of raiding are long going.  Take SWTOR raiding for example, the Story Mode and Hard modes in an 8 man setting is easy, relaxing, can be very fun and dramaless if you find the right group.  Yes SWTOR sucked for Hardcore players because they can finish all the content in a week.  Tough shit it was never built to be that game.  All you people that want to sit there and hate on raiders saying they are elites are just doing the same that Elites do when telling you to go earn your gear by raiding.  Why dont you all who hate raiding just deal with a game that does not have it and move on.  Just like the hardcore players moved on from SWTOR because it was not hardcore enough. 

Too much hate and negativty does nothing to better your life.  Find one of the three dozen MMOs that fit you and play it and stop getting all up and arms about what developers do.  Have your opinion, post it, dont fight others who have their own ideas and wants.  Its pointless.