Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by colddog04Originally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by BoneserinoOriginally posted by Squeak69Originally posted by BoneserinoAnd here is where your argument falls apart. Because if a game with high production values can survive as a F2P game and not a sub game, what does that say about the sub model of payment? Basically it says that high production value MMO's have a better chance of surviving as an F2P model and also, that if you make a big production value F2P game it should do equally well. Its the sub model MMO's that are doing poorly regardless of how you look at it.Nice try tho!
three is a large difrence between what makes you more money as a company and what makes a better game, last time i checked fast food chains make on average more profit in a day then a high class resterant dose, due to the huge gap in expense and saleries,the same thing can be applied to games while it is true that F2P makes companies more money it is mainly due to the large gap in costs VS income.Huh? I fail to see any valid point in your ridiculous anology. Sorryits pretty obvious.fast food (f2p) < high class restaurant (p2p) ..big mac < Fuddruckers < $10 NYC Restaurant Burger. big macs give you a stomach ache while the $10 NYC Restaurant Burger is better than se.. ok well maybe not quite that good, but .. almost!He was asking for a valid point pertaining to the discussion. Since no one can agree that F2P games are like McDonalds and P2P games are like high class restaurants, his point is useless and invalid.Actually, WoW is the game people compare to fast food the most and it is one of the last P2P games in existence.I can agree that fast food games are like f2p games. New Wow might as well be f2p. Haven't played New Wow for more than a couple of months either.Umm, written by you one post ago:
"wow, eq and uo are the only games that are worth playing for more than a couple of months."
Now it's "new WoW." You'll do anything to call something you don't like "fast food." Just like I can compare EQ and UO to old rank piles of shit if I wanted to, you have decided to use a random derogatory term as an analogy that doesn't make any sense to describe every F2P game on the planet.
I mean, how are you using the analogy anyway? Bad < Good?
since you've been living under a rock for 10 years, i'll fill you in on a little secret. wow has changed. a lot.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I played about every mmorpg that came out since 97. I can honestly say that I really liked 0 F2P games, I tried to play them but it was just lacking in many aspect and the constant reminder that I should spend money to make the game more enjoyable was really annoying and destroy any immersion you can have.
On the other hand I liked a lot of sub games. Not because they have sub, but because I feel like a lot more work went into them, it feels a lot more polished. They often seem to have more content and updates also come faster. I don't like the shady tactics f2p game devs use to make you spend money. Tiny inventory space that you fill up in the first 30 minutes of game play just to make you buy more bag space. Pseudo random roulette mini games, those games are perfect money grab from gambling addict.
I think both payment model are working to some people. If the game is good enough, I have no problem paying for it. IMHO when the game is designed around a cash shop it cannot make a great mmo. The fact that the latest p2p game didn't do too well is more a matter or poor design than a payment method I think, if those game would of been good enough I would still be playing em.
IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
1 hour per week in a ''good'' game is worth 15$/month.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
1 hour per week in a ''good'' game is worth 15$/month.
I suppose your parents pay ur bills. In my world though, 15$ for 3-4 hours of entertainment is not good enough. Not to mention expansion pack prices or initial box price added to those 15$ each month.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR Originally posted by DrakynnOriginally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by Sk1ppeRIMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly?
what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by Sk1ppeRIMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly?
what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?
Movies have trailers and reviews, console games, majority of them have DEMOS at least on the xbox 360 which give you a good hour of playtime before asking you to purchase the game if you WANT more
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR Originally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by Sk1ppeROriginally posted by DrakynnOriginally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by Sk1ppeRIMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW? In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!then argue for free trials. games aren't going to have free trials when they release ... that would just be stupid. wow, rift, tons of games have had free trials or at least trial weekends. it's pretty common. Even GW2 : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/try-guild-wars-2-for-free-this-weekend-april-19-21/its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly?what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?Movies have trailers and reviews, console games, majority of them have DEMOS at least on the xbox 360 which give you a good hour of playtime before asking you to purchase the game if you WANT more
yea, mmos have previews too, and open betas ffs. and most offer a free trial of some sort after the initial release.
considering the average ticket price for a movie is $8.00 and most movies are between 1.5 and 2 hours, i'd say $15 for 3-4 hours of entertainment is pretty standard.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by Sk1ppeRIMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly?
what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?
Meh, the argument is over. I like free trials too, but there are like 3 games to argue for and WoW and EVE already have one. Now almost every game on the market has the largest free trial you could possibly imagine. I look at a game like TERA and I can't help but notice the incredible amount of content that is available to the F2P user without ever thinking about paying.
We don't live in a time where people expect things for free, we live in a time when game developers figured out a way to allow the vast majority of players to play in these games worlds for free.
otherwise known as the time when most gamers don't play the same game for more than a few months before moving onto the next lackluster bore fest because the games are so generic that they aren't worth $15 a month and they survive because a handful of people like to look cool by buying tons of crap from a virtual store ...
but the argument is over .. cuz some dude on a forum said it was ..
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
Well, back in the old days many players would buy ANY new mmo and quit soon after release because it wasn't what they thought/hoped it would be.
If there's a supposed fotm MMO being released, and I know I won't play it for real (devoted to other main MMO), it's fun to play it F2P as I can see what this game is all about, graphics, storyline etc without buying the game. I KNOW I won't buy the game before trying myself.
Personally I treat them as a trial, it's the only way for those devs to actually have a slim chance of getting me as a subscriber.
And no, not one F2P game has gotten me so far that I actually subbed to the game, there's a reason why they go F2P and those reasons are usually enough not to pour money into that particular game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by Sk1ppeRIMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW? In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
then argue for free trials. games aren't going to have free trials when they release ... that would just be stupid. wow, rift, tons of games have had free trials or at least trial weekends. it's pretty common. Even GW2 : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/try-guild-wars-2-for-free-this-weekend-april-19-21/its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly?what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?
Movies have trailers and reviews, console games, majority of them have DEMOS at least on the xbox 360 which give you a good hour of playtime before asking you to purchase the game if you WANT more
yea, mmos have previews too, and open betas ffs. and most offer a free trial of some sort after the initial release.
considering the average ticket price for a movie is $8.00 and most movies are between 1.5 and 2 hours, i'd say $15 for 3-4 hours of entertainment is pretty standard.
I think you've lost track of time. In order to get in any kind of beta in a MMO nowadays, you have to preorder and some of them doesn't even offer a refund. Not to mention founder packs.Or the wave of kickstarter shit MMOs where if you don't pledge you will never EVER see a beta.
And I'm sorry but a MMO preview does not have the same value of a movie. After reading a movie review and watching a trailer you basically know what to expect. This is not the case with games in general. Trailers are most likely some cinematics that have nothing in common with the game or the gameplay and they are there just for a story and hype build. While review are mostly biased or "sponsored". So yeah, IMO in gaming unless you try something out, you don't know what to expect. I'm not willing to throw 60$ (usual box price) + 15$ to play 2 hours and realize that its shit MMO which i dont want to play, like it was the case with WoW
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
1 hour per week in a ''good'' game is worth 15$/month.
I suppose your parents pay ur bills. In my world though, 15$ for 3-4 hours of entertainment is not good enough. Not to mention expansion pack prices or initial box price added to those 15$ each month.
hehe my parents never paid my bills, and I am 33 btw. I don't know which world you live in but 15$ for 4 hours of entertainement is really cheap to me. Going out, restaurents, theater, various shows, even going for a bike ride ... what do you do that cost less than 4$/h ??
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR Originally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by Sk1ppeROriginally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by Sk1ppeROriginally posted by DrakynnOriginally posted by azmundaiOriginally posted by Sk1ppeRIMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW? In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!then argue for free trials. games aren't going to have free trials when they release ... that would just be stupid. wow, rift, tons of games have had free trials or at least trial weekends. it's pretty common. Even GW2 : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/try-guild-wars-2-for-free-this-weekend-april-19-21/its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly?what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?Movies have trailers and reviews, console games, majority of them have DEMOS at least on the xbox 360 which give you a good hour of playtime before asking you to purchase the game if you WANT moreyea, mmos have previews too, and open betas ffs. and most offer a free trial of some sort after the initial release.considering the average ticket price for a movie is $8.00 and most movies are between 1.5 and 2 hours, i'd say $15 for 3-4 hours of entertainment is pretty standard.I think you've lost track of time. In order to get in any kind of beta in a MMO nowadays, you have to preorder and some of them doesn't even offer a refund. Not to mention founder packs.Or the wave of kickstarter shit MMOs where if you don't pledge you will never EVER see a beta.
And I'm sorry but a MMO preview does not have the same value of a movie. After reading a movie review and watching a trailer you basically know what to expect. This is not the case with games in general. Trailers are most likely some cinematics that have nothing in common with the game or the gameplay and they are there just for a story and hype build. While review are mostly biased or "sponsored". So yeah, IMO in gaming unless you try something out, you don't know what to expect. I'm not willing to throw 60$ (usual box price) + 15$ to play 2 hours and realize that its shit MMO which i dont want to play, like it was the case with WoW
where do you get this stuff? I don't remember any mmo requiring a pre-order for open beta.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
otherwise known as the time when most gamers don't play the same game for more than a few months before moving onto the next lackluster bore fest because the games are so generic that they aren't worth $15 a month and they survive because a handful of people like to look cool by buying tons of crap from a virtual store ...
but the argument is over .. cuz some dude on a forum said it was ..
The argument about whether we should have free trials is over. You can continue to share your opinion about why you hate the F2P model, but when it comes to free trials, I think there is like one game without one (Darkfall?). And at that point we agree, it should have a trial.
And you're argument really changed a lot between your last post and this one. I'm sorry you are unable to stick to a game or two or whatever, but I stick to games just fine whether they be F2P, P2P or some hybrid. The only criteria I have for the games is whether or not I like playing them.
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
Even discounting easy to get into Open Betas and/or beta weekends before launch,you have buddy keys that most folks give away,free weekends and free trial periods for most P2P games and even B2P games like GW2.
Now DF:UW is the only game you listed that doesn't have free weekends and free trials but the original DF eventually did and before that had a $1 trial period,so I assume eventually DF:UW will too.Aventurine isn't a massive team backed by a big company so it's acceptable for them to do this especially since it only recently launched.
So again if you can't find a way to try a P2P game for free for a limited period then your not really trying. or are too impatient to wait for the option to become available after a grace period after launch.
the problem is I don't have a problem with there being some f2p games .. if that is what works for some people .. the problem is the complete lack of games that are actually worth spending money on. as I said a few posts ago, all of these f2p games and p2p games that go f2p are just generic rehashed crap, which is why they don't stay p2p. if they were actually worth paying for, people would pay for them. the appeal of f2p games comes down to the fact that the games that are being created are not worth paying for.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
You can't change the meaning of F2P to suit your needs. Those games are F2P. They are the games that are being discussed. You can't simply say that because a F2P game was once P2P that means it's not F2P. They are F2P games and so your argument falls apart not because I said anything, but because you are listing F2P games as your examples.
It's nice to see people coming around though. I can't imagine what the next step in denial is though. I mean, when you actually list F2P games as P2P games to support your argument that P2P games are superior, that has to be the last step, right?
Because the question we are discussing is game quality, I put all games that were made as paid games into the same group. That those went "free" later on does not make the core game F2P because it was not made as one. The quality should therefore be measured as a paid game.
A game originally designed as F2P on the other hand is a F2P game and goes into that category.
I agree..:)
I Have been arguing the same several times in this thread, and these guys refuse to see the HUGE difference between a game that
Was developed as a PTP game , Age of Conan , TSW
Or Neverwinter or Runes of Magic that is FTP from release
And here is where your argument falls apart.
Because if a game with high production values can survive as a F2P game and not a sub game, what does that say about the sub model of payment? Basically it says that high production value MMO's have a better chance of surviving as an F2P model and also, that if you make a big production value F2P game it should do equally well.
Its the sub model MMO's that are doing poorly regardless of how you look at it.
Nice try tho!
It sais that people are not willing to pay subs since there are so many Free alternatives
And here is where your argument falls apart aswell..Where would Bioware or EA get their investments back for SWTOR unless they didnt sell 1 Million boxes at the release of this game , they atleast got these money back before they went free to play. Right ?
a very fast way of getting your investment back, then the company can only hope that they will keep subscribers, this is where most games released today fails at for a number of reasons which in turn forces them to take the FTP route
To even be able to create one of these games you need boatloads of money, these investments often get's payed for with the selling of boxes , even if SWTOR didn't sell enough they still sold about 1 Million boxes x 55$ ..Right ?
When you make a PURE FTP game you wont get ANY revenue from sold boxes at all , instead you have to hope that the games cash shop draws in enough cash to pay for the game. Unless the company is super rich and/or ready to take a SUPER HUGE risk with their money the FTP games created as FTP from the beginning will continue to be cheap productions..
Neverwinter is one example that almost breaks these trends, It has one rather BIG franchise to secure Cryptic that this game will at least get some players,
Dungeons & Dragons , without this franchise I highly doubt that this game would ever even been made, because that is their life line . The game in itself is a rather cheap production , it shows that its a game that has been made FTP from the get go, also Cryptic sold founders packs and such things to at least get back some of their investments.
In my opinion they took a huge risk, but the story of Neverwinter is not yet over, I seriously doubt it will go well for them unless they start to make a better game overall, I mean the dungeons in that game just has to be the most shallow content released in VERY long time. DDO has way better dungeons and an even better D&D conversion . Last but not least they have put in a lot of faith in the foundry and that players will create their content for them, really smart move..
Ohh One more example came to mind Planetside 2 , again a tested franchise , SOE knew that alot of people would gladly play another planetside , and It's their own franchise , so they didnt have to put up tons of money for the legal rights .
These two games are the ONLY games( That I know of) that are created as FTP for the Western market by a ´Western company with a somewhat high production value, yet they are not even close to some of these AAA titles released the latest couple of years,
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR That quote was too large @azmundai tell me one P2P in the past years that had a truly open beta, one that does not require you to spent 1 cent
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR IMO all games especially MMOs should be free up to some point. I mean ... look at it, on P2P games you have to buy the box AND play for each consecutive month AND for the expansions that they bring. That's a lot of money in my opinion. It gets worse if the person throwing that amount of cash doesn't like the game
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
1 hour per week in a ''good'' game is worth 15$/month.
I suppose your parents pay ur bills. In my world though, 15$ for 3-4 hours of entertainment is not good enough. Not to mention expansion pack prices or initial box price added to those 15$ each month.
hehe my parents never paid my bills, and I am 33 btw. I don't know which world you live in but 15$ for 4 hours of entertainement is really cheap to me. Going out, restaurents, theater, various shows, even going for a bike ride ... what do you do that cost less than 4$/h ??
I find it hard to remember the last time an mmo gave me 4 hours of entertainment..It's such a dull and static genre that just produces the same game over and over. You can pay for that shit if you like but i sure as hell won't.
Comments
Huh? I fail to see any valid point in your ridiculous anology. Sorry
its pretty obvious. fast food (f2p) < high class restaurant (p2p) .. big mac < Fuddruckers < $10 NYC Restaurant Burger. big macs give you a stomach ache while the $10 NYC Restaurant Burger is better than se.. ok well maybe not quite that good, but .. almost!
He was asking for a valid point pertaining to the discussion. Since no one can agree that F2P games are like McDonalds and P2P games are like high class restaurants, his point is useless and invalid. Actually, WoW is the game people compare to fast food the most and it is one of the last P2P games in existence.
I can agree that fast food games are like f2p games. New Wow might as well be f2p. Haven't played New Wow for more than a couple of months either.
Umm, written by you one post ago:
"wow, eq and uo are the only games that are worth playing for more than a couple of months."
Now it's "new WoW." You'll do anything to call something you don't like "fast food." Just like I can compare EQ and UO to old rank piles of shit if I wanted to, you have decided to use a random derogatory term as an analogy that doesn't make any sense to describe every F2P game on the planet.
I mean, how are you using the analogy anyway? Bad < Good?
since you've been living under a rock for 10 years, i'll fill you in on a little secret. wow has changed. a lot.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I played about every mmorpg that came out since 97. I can honestly say that I really liked 0 F2P games, I tried to play them but it was just lacking in many aspect and the constant reminder that I should spend money to make the game more enjoyable was really annoying and destroy any immersion you can have.
On the other hand I liked a lot of sub games. Not because they have sub, but because I feel like a lot more work went into them, it feels a lot more polished. They often seem to have more content and updates also come faster. I don't like the shady tactics f2p game devs use to make you spend money. Tiny inventory space that you fill up in the first 30 minutes of game play just to make you buy more bag space. Pseudo random roulette mini games, those games are perfect money grab from gambling addict.
I think both payment model are working to some people. If the game is good enough, I have no problem paying for it. IMHO when the game is designed around a cash shop it cannot make a great mmo. The fact that the latest p2p game didn't do too well is more a matter or poor design than a payment method I think, if those game would of been good enough I would still be playing em.
free trials are a completely different topic. having 20 levels of free content in a p2p game serves this purpose just fine.
f2p games are fine too. i have no problem if that is how other people want to play. what irritates me is the lack of games that are worth $15 a month. I honestly don't have an interest in playing a game that isn't worth $15 a month.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
1 hour per week in a ''good'' game is worth 15$/month.
I suppose your parents pay ur bills. In my world though, 15$ for 3-4 hours of entertainment is not good enough. Not to mention expansion pack prices or initial box price added to those 15$ each month.
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW?
In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
then argue for free trials. games aren't going to have free trials when they release ... that would just be stupid. wow, rift, tons of games have had free trials or at least trial weekends. it's pretty common. Even GW2 : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/try-guild-wars-2-for-free-this-weekend-april-19-21/
its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly?
what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Movies have trailers and reviews, console games, majority of them have DEMOS at least on the xbox 360 which give you a good hour of playtime before asking you to purchase the game if you WANT more
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW? In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
then argue for free trials. games aren't going to have free trials when they release ... that would just be stupid. wow, rift, tons of games have had free trials or at least trial weekends. it's pretty common. Even GW2 : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/try-guild-wars-2-for-free-this-weekend-april-19-21/ its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly? what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?
Movies have trailers and reviews, console games, majority of them have DEMOS at least on the xbox 360 which give you a good hour of playtime before asking you to purchase the game if you WANT more
yea, mmos have previews too, and open betas ffs. and most offer a free trial of some sort after the initial release.
considering the average ticket price for a movie is $8.00 and most movies are between 1.5 and 2 hours, i'd say $15 for 3-4 hours of entertainment is pretty standard.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Meh, the argument is over. I like free trials too, but there are like 3 games to argue for and WoW and EVE already have one. Now almost every game on the market has the largest free trial you could possibly imagine. I look at a game like TERA and I can't help but notice the incredible amount of content that is available to the F2P user without ever thinking about paying.
We don't live in a time where people expect things for free, we live in a time when game developers figured out a way to allow the vast majority of players to play in these games worlds for free.
otherwise known as the time when most gamers don't play the same game for more than a few months before moving onto the next lackluster bore fest because the games are so generic that they aren't worth $15 a month and they survive because a handful of people like to look cool by buying tons of crap from a virtual store ...
but the argument is over .. cuz some dude on a forum said it was ..
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Well, back in the old days many players would buy ANY new mmo and quit soon after release because it wasn't what they thought/hoped it would be.
If there's a supposed fotm MMO being released, and I know I won't play it for real (devoted to other main MMO), it's fun to play it F2P as I can see what this game is all about, graphics, storyline etc without buying the game. I KNOW I won't buy the game before trying myself.
Personally I treat them as a trial, it's the only way for those devs to actually have a slim chance of getting me as a subscriber.
And no, not one F2P game has gotten me so far that I actually subbed to the game, there's a reason why they go F2P and those reasons are usually enough not to pour money into that particular game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I think you've lost track of time. In order to get in any kind of beta in a MMO nowadays, you have to preorder and some of them doesn't even offer a refund. Not to mention founder packs.Or the wave of kickstarter shit MMOs where if you don't pledge you will never EVER see a beta.
And I'm sorry but a MMO preview does not have the same value of a movie. After reading a movie review and watching a trailer you basically know what to expect. This is not the case with games in general. Trailers are most likely some cinematics that have nothing in common with the game or the gameplay and they are there just for a story and hype build. While review are mostly biased or "sponsored". So yeah, IMO in gaming unless you try something out, you don't know what to expect. I'm not willing to throw 60$ (usual box price) + 15$ to play 2 hours and realize that its shit MMO which i dont want to play, like it was the case with WoW
hehe my parents never paid my bills, and I am 33 btw. I don't know which world you live in but 15$ for 4 hours of entertainement is really cheap to me. Going out, restaurents, theater, various shows, even going for a bike ride ... what do you do that cost less than 4$/h ??
yeah I've never understood this argument against P2P games I have never,ever had a problem trying a P2P game for free before buying.You'd have to be extremely lazy not to find a way to do so.
Try playing Gw2 right now without buying the box. WoW has trials in the last couple years it certainly didn't launch this way. How do you trial DFUW? In reality, very few P2P games have ongoing trials. The devs of such games always have and always WILL rip people off on a box price. And regardless if you log for 1 hour a day, you WILL pay the full subscription price as the nolife Joe that plays 13 hours a day. Yes, that is the problem of P2P games. They are scam and I don't know why people like you keep defending this old and useless business model. Subscription price does not mean quality. Plenty of examples on that statement!
then argue for free trials. games aren't going to have free trials when they release ... that would just be stupid. wow, rift, tons of games have had free trials or at least trial weekends. it's pretty common. Even GW2 : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/try-guild-wars-2-for-free-this-weekend-april-19-21/ its so sad that we live in a time where people expect things for free. who is scamming who exactly? what about console games? every console game that wasn't given away for free / had a box price was a scam? every movie that you didn't like was a scam?
Movies have trailers and reviews, console games, majority of them have DEMOS at least on the xbox 360 which give you a good hour of playtime before asking you to purchase the game if you WANT more
yea, mmos have previews too, and open betas ffs. and most offer a free trial of some sort after the initial release. considering the average ticket price for a movie is $8.00 and most movies are between 1.5 and 2 hours, i'd say $15 for 3-4 hours of entertainment is pretty standard.
I think you've lost track of time. In order to get in any kind of beta in a MMO nowadays, you have to preorder and some of them doesn't even offer a refund. Not to mention founder packs.Or the wave of kickstarter shit MMOs where if you don't pledge you will never EVER see a beta.
And I'm sorry but a MMO preview does not have the same value of a movie. After reading a movie review and watching a trailer you basically know what to expect. This is not the case with games in general. Trailers are most likely some cinematics that have nothing in common with the game or the gameplay and they are there just for a story and hype build. While review are mostly biased or "sponsored". So yeah, IMO in gaming unless you try something out, you don't know what to expect. I'm not willing to throw 60$ (usual box price) + 15$ to play 2 hours and realize that its shit MMO which i dont want to play, like it was the case with WoW
where do you get this stuff? I don't remember any mmo requiring a pre-order for open beta.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
The argument about whether we should have free trials is over. You can continue to share your opinion about why you hate the F2P model, but when it comes to free trials, I think there is like one game without one (Darkfall?). And at that point we agree, it should have a trial.
And you're argument really changed a lot between your last post and this one. I'm sorry you are unable to stick to a game or two or whatever, but I stick to games just fine whether they be F2P, P2P or some hybrid. The only criteria I have for the games is whether or not I like playing them.
Even discounting easy to get into Open Betas and/or beta weekends before launch,you have buddy keys that most folks give away,free weekends and free trial periods for most P2P games and even B2P games like GW2.
Now DF:UW is the only game you listed that doesn't have free weekends and free trials but the original DF eventually did and before that had a $1 trial period,so I assume eventually DF:UW will too.Aventurine isn't a massive team backed by a big company so it's acceptable for them to do this especially since it only recently launched.
So again if you can't find a way to try a P2P game for free for a limited period then your not really trying. or are too impatient to wait for the option to become available after a grace period after launch.
the problem is I don't have a problem with there being some f2p games .. if that is what works for some people .. the problem is the complete lack of games that are actually worth spending money on. as I said a few posts ago, all of these f2p games and p2p games that go f2p are just generic rehashed crap, which is why they don't stay p2p. if they were actually worth paying for, people would pay for them. the appeal of f2p games comes down to the fact that the games that are being created are not worth paying for.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
That quote was too large
@azmundai tell me one P2P in the past years that had a truly open beta, one that does not require you to spent 1 cent
It sais that people are not willing to pay subs since there are so many Free alternatives
And here is where your argument falls apart aswell..Where would Bioware or EA get their investments back for SWTOR unless they didnt sell 1 Million boxes at the release of this game , they atleast got these money back before they went free to play. Right ?
a very fast way of getting your investment back, then the company can only hope that they will keep subscribers, this is where most games released today fails at for a number of reasons which in turn forces them to take the FTP route
To even be able to create one of these games you need boatloads of money, these investments often get's payed for with the selling of boxes , even if SWTOR didn't sell enough they still sold about 1 Million boxes x 55$ ..Right ?
When you make a PURE FTP game you wont get ANY revenue from sold boxes at all , instead you have to hope that the games cash shop draws in enough cash to pay for the game. Unless the company is super rich and/or ready to take a SUPER HUGE risk with their money the FTP games created as FTP from the beginning will continue to be cheap productions..
Neverwinter is one example that almost breaks these trends, It has one rather BIG franchise to secure Cryptic that this game will at least get some players,
Dungeons & Dragons , without this franchise I highly doubt that this game would ever even been made, because that is their life line . The game in itself is a rather cheap production , it shows that its a game that has been made FTP from the get go, also Cryptic sold founders packs and such things to at least get back some of their investments.
In my opinion they took a huge risk, but the story of Neverwinter is not yet over, I seriously doubt it will go well for them unless they start to make a better game overall, I mean the dungeons in that game just has to be the most shallow content released in VERY long time. DDO has way better dungeons and an even better D&D conversion . Last but not least they have put in a lot of faith in the foundry and that players will create their content for them, really smart move..
Ohh One more example came to mind Planetside 2 , again a tested franchise , SOE knew that alot of people would gladly play another planetside , and It's their own franchise , so they didnt have to put up tons of money for the legal rights .
These two games are the ONLY games( That I know of) that are created as FTP for the Western market by a ´Western company with a somewhat high production value, yet they are not even close to some of these AAA titles released the latest couple of years,
to my knowlege all of them, but here is one.
swtor : http://www.slhq.co.uk/jl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=200:star-wars-the-old-republic-open-beta-weekend&catid=58:showcase&Itemid=124
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I find it hard to remember the last time an mmo gave me 4 hours of entertainment..It's such a dull and static genre that just produces the same game over and over. You can pay for that shit if you like but i sure as hell won't.