Originally posted by Eir_S You don't want to get into it because TERA's community was bad when it was p2p too. So was SWTOR's.
They re a hell of a lot worse now. Of course you re going to see it differently, you support the F2p style it seems. I have seen a way worse community in those games, once they went f2p.
Originally posted by Eir_S You don't want to get into it because TERA's community was bad when it was p2p too. So was SWTOR's.
They re a hell of a lot worse now. Of course you re going to see it differently, you support the F2p style it seems. I have seen a way worse community in those games, once they went f2p.
Oh ok, they're worse now. So even if that's true, you admit they were bad before. And they were still P2P. Thanks.
Originally posted by Eir_S You don't want to get into it because TERA's community was bad when it was p2p too. So was SWTOR's.
They re a hell of a lot worse now. Of course you re going to see it differently, you support the F2p style it seems. I have seen a way worse community in those games, once they went f2p.
Oh ok, they're worse now. So even if that's true, you admit they were bad before. And they were still P2P. Thanks.
Sure they were bad to a point, every game has idiots. As I said though, since they ve gone F2P they re WORSE!!!
Originally posted by Eir_S You don't want to get into it because TERA's community was bad when it was p2p too. So was SWTOR's.
They re a hell of a lot worse now. Of course you re going to see it differently, you support the F2p style it seems. I have seen a way worse community in those games, once they went f2p.
Oh ok, they're worse now. So even if that's true, you admit they were bad before. And they were still P2P. Thanks.
Sure they were bad to a point, every game has idiots. As I said though, since they ve gone F2P they re WORSE!!!
Says you, I was treated just fine in TERA after it went F2P, in fact the worst offenders were high level players who owned the game when it was P2P. The point was that trolls apparently avoid P2P games. Anyone who's been paying attention knows that's a lie, a hopeful lie, but a lie nonetheless. This isn't the 80's anymore, most gamers have the means to pay for a subscription just to be tools. Maybe they even feel like it's ok because they're paying.
Originally posted by Eir_S You don't want to get into it because TERA's community was bad when it was p2p too. So was SWTOR's.
They re a hell of a lot worse now. Of course you re going to see it differently, you support the F2p style it seems. I have seen a way worse community in those games, once they went f2p.
Oh ok, they're worse now. So even if that's true, you admit they were bad before. And they were still P2P. Thanks.
Sure they were bad to a point, every game has idiots. As I said though, since they ve gone F2P they re WORSE!!!
Says you, I was treated just fine in TERA after it went F2P, in fact the worst offenders were high level players who owned the game when it was P2P. The point was that trolls apparently avoid P2P games. Anyone who's been paying attention knows that's a lie, a hopeful lie, but a lie nonetheless. This isn't the 80's anymore, most gamers have the means to pay for a subscription just to be tools. Maybe they even feel like it's ok because they're paying.
As you said "says you" I have without a doubt seen them as worse after f2p, you don t, guess we can t agree on that. As you said before theres no proof that it makes it this way, as theres no proof it doesn t.
So is FFXIV really going to be Subscription based? And if so will it have a cash shop? I'm finding it hard to believe. I don't think there's been a new triple A subscription based MMORPG since WoW in 2004.
Someone probably pointed it out already, but there have been MANY sub-based MMO's since WoW, they just didn't stay sub-based because they weren't as profitable as they are F2P. FFXIV will eventually go the same route, I imagine.
You are forgetting that this game will come with cross platform support and the huge japanese playerbase that would play it. Also, last time I checked FF11 is still p2p :P. Go play with your kites lol.
What does the company have to do with the community? You're not even presenting the same argument.
Look, I don't care if the community ends up being the best community ever, but the fact that people think payment method either encourages or deters trolls and bad behavior is bizarre to me, and statistically inaccurate. It's game mechanics that ultimately cause players to act out. P2P example: WoW. F2P example: League of Legends. P2P gone F2P examples: TERA, SWTOR.
All examples of terrible communities, regardless of payment. I think I'm wasting my breath here.
What does game mechanic have to do with trolls. Seriously, show me the game mechanic in these forums that "make" people troll? There are none because trolling has diddly to do with game mechanics and more to do with easy accessibility. Your WoW example is more of an exception to the rule.
Forums ARE a mechanic. A public forum that's well-populated will attract trolls because they will get a response. To further prove my point, the Something Awful forums were paid forums (a terrible idea that people paid for anyway), and there was nothing BUT trolls there. It's the same with games, price tag or no price tag. Trolls usually go where the action is. Someone made a dense comment about the quality of trolls being better because they have to pay a sub. I wouldn't even know where to begin with that one.
There is NO proof on your end that trolling is seen more in F2P games. It's a stupid concept used by people who still want to pretend that renting software they own is necessary to support game development when ANet already proved it isn't.
Lmao you keep your eyes wide shut and you just keep thinking f2p doesn't have more trolls than p2p as a norm, you just keep on thinking trolls will pay cash to just keep trolling..
Like I said it is about accessibility. Also you just defeated your own premise. You say trolls go where the action is when many here seem to be saying the action is in f2p games. LIke you say trolls will go where the mob is which is in f2p game. Like locust they go from one game to the other and that is why f2p are lesser quality and sucky more often than not.
They are designed to attract new people short term to get money from them then they move on to the next person, like a revolving door or sheep being sheared, they want you in and out quickly. Those games are not designed for long term retention but for high client rotation.
Its very simple trolls that play a game because they like it will still show up in p2p games but trolls that are there just to troll will not pay just to be able to go in a game and troll, it is bloody common sense.
I have played some games that were p2p and went f2p and it was pretty obvious that the douchbagery and asshatness went much higher when going f2p over what existed while it was p2p and this from someone that has been a strong f2p advocate lol
Likewise the asshatery seems to always be higher the first few months while the game is shiny and new which supports what I am saying.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I'm another who will play precisely because it's p2p.
f2p games I've played have had certain things in common.
1) Devalued or zero crafting not sure why this maybe abc use of player turnover at lower levels, but with most f2p games crafting has been either none existent or poor. those that are good most of them started out as p2p games and the crafting mechanic was based around p2p. Like I say, not sure why crafting is sub par in f2p...IMO it just is
2) surrounded by content leeches and oddballs. People downloading clients and then wandering around subverting whatever rp elements the game may have. Constant trolling for pvp even in areas or zones where it's not appropriate. Always seem to be loads of people running in circles, bunny hopping, trolling, ganking etc.
3) cash shop. Constant interruptions when yo realise that to progress efficiently you need to stop the game and buy the tin opener for whatever gameplay element they've nerfed
just playing a game where the majority of players don't have the involvement or investment ideals that a higher percentage of players seem to have in a p 2p game.
The best f2p games I've played we're once p2p. Guild wars 2 suck IMO. Eve ftw.
I checked out FFXIV and honestly the graphics are great the Interface/Control Layout feels exactly like Final Fantasy XI only better and no need to do macros like in FFXI UI /firega /wait commands and all that stuff.
Subscription Model MMO's are not bad Games I actively spend around $30-$60 a month on subscription MMO's sometimes multiple subscriptions to the same MMO like DarkFall/EVE Online and that isn't bad.
The Problem with F2P MMO's is that they are done wrong developers are getting too greedy asking too much, going into open beta before its even ready for open beta, and I will give some examples of such.
1. APB, the Original Game was great, had the company have had founding I would have completely stayed subscribed to the game heck I had 6+ Moths paid in subscription already before the game closed down I love APB, I do not like APB Reloaded because Gamers First had bad customer service, and gets Greedy its no longer a game of skill its a game of Pay 2 enjoy/Win depending the way you see it.
2. FireFall another good game could have been but the developers did not listen to any of the feedback I gave them during closed BETA so I quit playing, the game honestly uses up too much memory, its not as smooth as it could be and the models of the characters look cartoony not High-Definition, I want to see realistic character models and armors.
3. Infestation/War Z, still another failure of a game could have been great but lack of development, character models are not too bad, but when you stick body armor on them it looks all bulky not rendered that great.
4. Lets not forget TERA Online Buggy UI with resolution bugs reported as a collectors edition buyer, I was lied to/mislead by the company when I bought it, company refused to provide good customer service, and then game goes F2P Because it can't even survive same thing with Aion, and The Secret World, All these games were failures and while people will debate me of course its just my opinion but now they will survive of cash shops and people who spend money a minimum to keep a small developer team keep the game up add new content here and there and make profit.
Guild Wars 2, Isnt the best I don't love it personally but I agree they did a good job for those who do like it I would give a thumbs up to this game.
Defiance is a F2P Game, but looks way better than FireFall developed off the movie of course and likely more funding than FIreFall even had though, also I am quite impressed with the memory usage of this game and smooth game-play.
Heck even Global Agenda, is better than Fire-Fall, of course its an opinion.
Age of Wushu is another game that could have been great but they refused to deal with the exploiters, lack of encryption, banned many innocent accounts whose users didn't cheat, failed to provide A+ Customer service no perm Clothing at the time, or mounts, now it costs about $60 to buy a perm clothing set I want on my character, but no perm mounts even if they added I would spend about $100 to get my character like I want it but am not doing it because I feel the game has went down hill and finally they start to listen, well its too late they lost me as a customer.
F2P Games, are not the bomb is what I am saying Pay 2 Play is still the way to go I believe because $15 a month seems reasonable compared to spending $30 or $60 + in a F2P Game then dropping out because you get bored want more cash shop items have to keep paying out of your pocket if you want them.
As many people here seem to I'm very much looking forward to a sub based game. Not only will this deter a huge amount of the moronic player base from coming into a game and trying to change it's ideas, persona, and general uniqueness but actually enable a decent community.
Let me stop you right there. Can anyone name the biggest, most profitable subscription game out there, and then tell me if it has a great community, and not, instead, a history of some of the worst behavior and biggest trolls ever pulled off in an online game?
Hint: It's WoW.
The idea that subscriptions make a better community is laughable. By far the best communities I've ever been a part of were either B2P or F2P games. There is no proof that sub-based games deter trolling, in fact there's more evidence to the contrary. But go ahead and think what you want, it's not my world that's going to come crashing down when xSephirothX69 kicks you from a group because mommy and daddy let him use their credit card.
A big part of the problem with debates on forums like these, is that people will pick an argument, pick one 'detail' that suits them and cling to it, while ignoring all other factors.
1. Most people in WoW are fine. The only reason there seems to be "more" of the jerks is because they're also the most vocal. Most people are just playing the game. I'm sure every single person on these forums knows several people, at least, who play WoW and whom don't carry on like jerks when they're playing. I certainly do. Yet people will come onto a forum, and make these broad-sweeping generalizations, painting an entire community as "bad" - even though they know better. Just to "make a point".
2. It's a numbers game. When you have more people playing a game (in WoW's case, millions), you're going to get a higher number of jerks among them. Consider how just 2 or 3 people let loose on a message forum can make it seem like nothing but a cesspit of negativity, even though most people are level-headed and normal individuals. Now consider what many more than that let loose on an area/global/local chat in a MMO could seem like.
Take the whole Mac vs. PC thing. Mac owners love to claim "Macs get fewer viruses". Yes, but Mac also has a far smaller market share; fewer people using them. Linux has arguably even fewer. People who write viruses want to affect as many people as they can, so they're going to go for the largest community they can find... In this case: PC. More users, hence more viruses. Again, it's a numbers game.
3. A subscription does not prevent idiots from getting into a game. It does present a barrier-to-entry that keeps far more of them out than a F2P MMO with no barrier at all.
Originally posted by Eir_S You don't want to get into it because TERA's community was bad when it was p2p too. So was SWTOR's.
TERA's community was fine; no worse than any MMO I've played with Open PvP. And again, it's a small portion of the population making all the noise, not "the entire population".
Stop generalizing.
People like the ones we're talking about here, above all, want an"audience". But they don't want (or can't afford) to keep spending money on new games and sub fees to get it. F2P is a godsend for them.
Having a sub still keeps more jerks out games than going F2P does.
Originally posted by Eir_S You don't want to get into it because TERA's community was bad when it was p2p too. So was SWTOR's.
They re a hell of a lot worse now. Of course you re going to see it differently, you support the F2p style it seems. I have seen a way worse community in those games, once they went f2p.
Oh ok, they're worse now. So even if that's true, you admit they were bad before. And they were still P2P. Thanks.
I don't think anyone's ever claimed "there are no idiots in P2P MMOs".
It's a question of "which one is worse? P2P or F2P?"
The answer is, quite decisively, F2P.
Due simply to the fact that there's a barrier-of-entry, P2P MMOs consistently have far better communities, with far fewer idiots, than F2P MMOs.
In the past few years; Very few titles have been of a quality to warrant a subscription. There simply wasnt a retention rate supporting the model.
That speaks to the quality of the game, not to the model itself.
I happily payed EQ1 sub for over 4 consequtive years, and later similar amount of time for wow. - For a while, during the years 2008 and 2012, I was still dumb enough to purchase every socalled AA title, quite a few of which started out as sub based games. I sometimes did not even last the first free 30 days. - I was not burned out on the genre. - I was purchasing games that had poor content, and very poor lasting power, apart from gimmicky end game and very few social mechanics in place to create meaningfull communities.
In my honest opinion, f2p is for games that want a quick bang for the buck, and who can successfully appeal to the addictive and compulsive behaviour many gamers have inherent in their nature. - Examples like teras chance based boxes or Gw2's for that matter.
p2p are restricted to games that are good enough, and confident enough at launch to hold a retention rate on their subscribers, large enough, so that the eventual gain on the cashshop, doesnt greatly outpace the income from their subscriptions.
it seems obvious then why some games who fail to hold high rentention go to the f2p model > Swtor and Tsw, and why some games like wow, still earn so much from subs that it wouldnt make sense to drop the sub - yet!
A realm reborn should start out as a sub, and it will hopefully prove itself to be just the gem it needs to be in order to hold to the sub system. There is not reason whatsoever for a game that seems to believe in itself for a relaunch to start as if defeated and be f2p. It is obvious that that is something those who have failed the sub method do later to earn something on their investment. - Not something we as gamers should encourage as a strategy during development, and early release imo.
So according to you since WOW the last successful P2P MMO there has not been one quality MMO?
But wait a minute... FFXIV is that quality MMO we have all been waiting for? the 'one' has finally arrived!!
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
In the past few years; Very few titles have been of a quality to warrant a subscription. There simply wasnt a retention rate supporting the model.
That speaks to the quality of the game, not to the model itself.
I happily payed EQ1 sub for over 4 consequtive years, and later similar amount of time for wow. - For a while, during the years 2008 and 2012, I was still dumb enough to purchase every socalled AA title, quite a few of which started out as sub based games. I sometimes did not even last the first free 30 days. - I was not burned out on the genre. - I was purchasing games that had poor content, and very poor lasting power, apart from gimmicky end game and very few social mechanics in place to create meaningfull communities.
In my honest opinion, f2p is for games that want a quick bang for the buck, and who can successfully appeal to the addictive and compulsive behaviour many gamers have inherent in their nature. - Examples like teras chance based boxes or Gw2's for that matter.
p2p are restricted to games that are good enough, and confident enough at launch to hold a retention rate on their subscribers, large enough, so that the eventual gain on the cashshop, doesnt greatly outpace the income from their subscriptions.
it seems obvious then why some games who fail to hold high rentention go to the f2p model > Swtor and Tsw, and why some games like wow, still earn so much from subs that it wouldnt make sense to drop the sub - yet!
A realm reborn should start out as a sub, and it will hopefully prove itself to be just the gem it needs to be in order to hold to the sub system. There is not reason whatsoever for a game that seems to believe in itself for a relaunch to start as if defeated and be f2p. It is obvious that that is something those who have failed the sub method do later to earn something on their investment. - Not something we as gamers should encourage as a strategy during development, and early release imo.
So according to you since WOW the last successful P2P MMO there has not been one quality MMO?
But wait a minute... FFXIV is that quality MMO we have all been waiting for? the 'one'!!
The "one"? FFXI already exists as a p2p game, and has before WoW so it wouldn't even be the "one" for Square Enix.
F2P is popular no doubt, I mean you have players (many of whom are on this board) who go out and spend hundreds of dollars a month on cash shop games. Plus with no barrier to entry in the form of paying to play the game they can attract a lot of fish, they hook a few and those people drop a couple thousand dollars on a game.
They are more profitable than a whole guild subbing to the game for years. They don't even have to stick around after they drop their cash in the shop, they can disappear the next day and the company makes more money since they no longer have to house their character/develop content for them.
If you honestly believe the line that all those F2P conversions you speak of HAD to go f2p or they wouldn't be able to keep the servers alive then you must believe they were indeed subpar and not worth paying to play and accept that FFXI and Darkfall, and all the other P2P games are better because they survived. As did FFXIV 1.0 which after dropping their apologetic "free month extension" grew its subscription base threefold. So even FFXIV a game that Square Enix found unacceptable in its current state, still managed to stay alive without resorting to a cash shop. Does that mean it is better than all the other games released since WoW?
Personally I find greed to be a much more plausible explanation. People who wanted money, and they wanted it right now. Just like gamers who want cash shop items and they want it now. The appeal is not a mystery, but it is not universal thankfully.
In the past few years; Very few titles have been of a quality to warrant a subscription. There simply wasnt a retention rate supporting the model.
That speaks to the quality of the game, not to the model itself.
I happily payed EQ1 sub for over 4 consequtive years, and later similar amount of time for wow. - For a while, during the years 2008 and 2012, I was still dumb enough to purchase every socalled AA title, quite a few of which started out as sub based games. I sometimes did not even last the first free 30 days. - I was not burned out on the genre. - I was purchasing games that had poor content, and very poor lasting power, apart from gimmicky end game and very few social mechanics in place to create meaningfull communities.
In my honest opinion, f2p is for games that want a quick bang for the buck, and who can successfully appeal to the addictive and compulsive behaviour many gamers have inherent in their nature. - Examples like teras chance based boxes or Gw2's for that matter.
p2p are restricted to games that are good enough, and confident enough at launch to hold a retention rate on their subscribers, large enough, so that the eventual gain on the cashshop, doesnt greatly outpace the income from their subscriptions.
it seems obvious then why some games who fail to hold high rentention go to the f2p model > Swtor and Tsw, and why some games like wow, still earn so much from subs that it wouldnt make sense to drop the sub - yet!
A realm reborn should start out as a sub, and it will hopefully prove itself to be just the gem it needs to be in order to hold to the sub system. There is not reason whatsoever for a game that seems to believe in itself for a relaunch to start as if defeated and be f2p. It is obvious that that is something those who have failed the sub method do later to earn something on their investment. - Not something we as gamers should encourage as a strategy during development, and early release imo.
So according to you since WOW the last successful P2P MMO there has not been one quality MMO?
But wait a minute... FFXIV is that quality MMO we have all been waiting for? the 'one'!!
The "one"? FFXI already exists as a p2p game, and has before WoW so it wouldn't even be the "one" for Square Enix.
FFXI was released in times when P2P model was viable. I am talking about current times when it is almost impossible for MMOS to survive as P2P . The person i quoted made a statement that all MMOS going F2P recently is because of lack of quality. That is why i said 'FFXIV is the one'... (as in NEO from Matrix) to save us from evil of F2P. Because according to his post FFXIV is the only quality MMO to release since WOW that warrants a subscription.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Originally posted by NetSage That may be but it's still around Today and is still P2P. By your logic it should have changed to F2P by now. Same with WoW and EVE.
Why would a game so old would go F2P now? because these games have paid for themselves 100 times over by now. After 11 or 12 years it is all about keeping the server running without worrying about making the initial investment back.
So nope that is not my 'logic'. I am talking about current times and new releases which have very hard time due to very high competition and general lack in interest of gamers to support P2P model. Moreover MMOS cost a lot more than it used to in times of FFXI and FFXIV is being made twice now.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
It's not like they just leave the servers up you know? They are still releasing patches and expansions even today. I think you're just trying to defend your logic. But, going by your new logic why is Everquest now F2P? It was released around the same time as FFXI.
I mean either your right or your wrong but this time it seems you're neither.
It's not like they just leave the servers up you know? They are still releasing patches and expansions even today. I think you're just trying to defend your logic. But, going by your new logic why is Everquest now F2P? It was released around the same time as FFXI.
I mean either your right or your wrong but this time it seems you're neither.
EQ is going F2P because it is SOE and according to them the population isn't good enough (even though EQ population is still higher than P2P MMOS like Warhammer Online). By the way option to sub is still there so it is not a complete F2P. it is following same model as EQ2. Their decision to make EQ F2P has more to do with cash shop than population.
Every MMO release patches and content releases but that is not same as making huge investments at the time of release.
Also i don't know what is this logic you keep talking about? my argument is simple..in current times when P2P MMOS are failing left and right..a game has to be really exceptional to survive as P2P.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
It's not like they just leave the servers up you know? They are still releasing patches and expansions even today. I think you're just trying to defend your logic. But, going by your new logic why is Everquest now F2P? It was released around the same time as FFXI.
I mean either your right or your wrong but this time it seems you're neither.
Some people dont get it. The MMO industry is in the middle of a quantum shift. SoE product, SWToR, LotR have made a F2P model that lets you put your time in a game for free right up to top level. Now you are invested and love the game. To get full access to the top level content and play with the top level community you need to start paying. Its a really smart business model but here is where the quantum shift is.
MMOs that have smart management have all moved to this model because of a few reasons and will force the rest of the market to make the same switch or slowly get choked from the supply of new gamers wanting to try your game. 20 people looking for a new MMO home. They have lets say 50 MMOs to pick from (we know its a lot more) 5 of them are P2P and the rest all have the F2P model up to top level. Of the 20 players how many will try the one they need to start paying right from the start, box price + a sub? Maybe a few. But you have to see of the 50 the majority will try something F2P to see if they like it first as its FREE.
Along the way, F2P players do spend money, cash shop things like extra bag space (because they have less being a F2P player) A couple char slots so they can make another char to try another class. All of a sudden you are making money as well as getting new players. If a MMO does not conform to this new model they are turning away many many new players. In the end as you lose players to new MMOs and the many other reasons people leave MMOs, you now are shrinking you player base quicker because you are gaining less new players to off set this common tread in MMOs, people leave games.
FF14 may have ever intention to not go F2P but they will one day as the market will force them to if they want to gain new players!!! This is the life blood on any MMO, people!!!
Originally posted by Shatter30 This game will fail as a sub MMO. If TOR couldn't survive as one as large of an IP as it is, why would this do any better when its essentially a WOW clone done worse.
WoW clone done worse? how exactly and why, so it's a clone because it has Quest NPC's? you ppl make me laugh seriously, explain to us why it is done worse, imo the experience i had in beta in this game has out-wieghed any experience i had in WoW.
Hell just the community in this game is much better than near any other mmo i have played bar ff11
The only reason this game will fail as a sub is because let's face it nobody wants to play sub based games anymore, have you not noticed that near every major title on the maket is going or has gone F2P, i hope it stays sub based so there will be a decent community for a change, the level of playerbase maturity in MMO's have taken a major dive in recent years, an MMO is meant to be about the community imo but it unfortunately has inherited alot of the wrong crowd as it is no longer a community driven genre as it quite often is used as a griefing tool and i'm sure ppl know what i mean and if you don't then i'm sure you have at some point been subject to slander, abuse, bullying e.t.c e.t.c
Not trying to start an argument but am just wondering why it is that it is worse done than WoW, you took it upon yourself to make such a bold statement i think you could atleast grant us the wisdom of knowing why you think that is.
if i list the reasons for me to play, or not to play FF14:ARR, the fact that it's subscription based falls in the "reasons to play"
in terms of building community, there is not really any substitute than having the players feel as many ties to their character as possible. this includes the financial tie of a sub. couple this with the fact that you have one character with multiple classes as opposed to alts, making it difficult to hide on an alt when you've been a jerk, and that's actually the start of a thriving community with a much lower jerk factor than most games.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Originally posted by Theocritus Well they still charge a monthly for FFXI, a badly outdated game so why wouldn't they charge for the next shiny?
Luckily you can enjoy your "current times" with Doogiehowser in a number of fantastic and vast cash shop fueled experiences offered and promoted on this website.
And those of us who prefer monthly subscription based MMORPG's can continue to enjoy MMORPG's produced and developed by a massive company such as Square Enix who can afford to keep the lights on for us, and content rolling in without panicking and going all "extra Bag slots for $30!!!!!!" on us.
Comments
They re a hell of a lot worse now. Of course you re going to see it differently, you support the F2p style it seems. I have seen a way worse community in those games, once they went f2p.
Oh ok, they're worse now. So even if that's true, you admit they were bad before. And they were still P2P. Thanks.
Sure they were bad to a point, every game has idiots. As I said though, since they ve gone F2P they re WORSE!!!
Says you, I was treated just fine in TERA after it went F2P, in fact the worst offenders were high level players who owned the game when it was P2P. The point was that trolls apparently avoid P2P games. Anyone who's been paying attention knows that's a lie, a hopeful lie, but a lie nonetheless. This isn't the 80's anymore, most gamers have the means to pay for a subscription just to be tools. Maybe they even feel like it's ok because they're paying.
As you said "says you" I have without a doubt seen them as worse after f2p, you don t, guess we can t agree on that. As you said before theres no proof that it makes it this way, as theres no proof it doesn t.
You are forgetting that this game will come with cross platform support and the huge japanese playerbase that would play it. Also, last time I checked FF11 is still p2p :P. Go play with your kites lol.
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Lmao you keep your eyes wide shut and you just keep thinking f2p doesn't have more trolls than p2p as a norm, you just keep on thinking trolls will pay cash to just keep trolling..
Like I said it is about accessibility. Also you just defeated your own premise. You say trolls go where the action is when many here seem to be saying the action is in f2p games. LIke you say trolls will go where the mob is which is in f2p game. Like locust they go from one game to the other and that is why f2p are lesser quality and sucky more often than not.
They are designed to attract new people short term to get money from them then they move on to the next person, like a revolving door or sheep being sheared, they want you in and out quickly. Those games are not designed for long term retention but for high client rotation.
Its very simple trolls that play a game because they like it will still show up in p2p games but trolls that are there just to troll will not pay just to be able to go in a game and troll, it is bloody common sense.
I have played some games that were p2p and went f2p and it was pretty obvious that the douchbagery and asshatness went much higher when going f2p over what existed while it was p2p and this from someone that has been a strong f2p advocate lol
Likewise the asshatery seems to always be higher the first few months while the game is shiny and new which supports what I am saying.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I'm another who will play precisely because it's p2p.
f2p games I've played have had certain things in common.
1) Devalued or zero crafting not sure why this maybe abc use of player turnover at lower levels, but with most f2p games crafting has been either none existent or poor. those that are good most of them started out as p2p games and the crafting mechanic was based around p2p. Like I say, not sure why crafting is sub par in f2p...IMO it just is
2) surrounded by content leeches and oddballs. People downloading clients and then wandering around subverting whatever rp elements the game may have. Constant trolling for pvp even in areas or zones where it's not appropriate. Always seem to be loads of people running in circles, bunny hopping, trolling, ganking etc.
3) cash shop. Constant interruptions when yo realise that to progress efficiently you need to stop the game and buy the tin opener for whatever gameplay element they've nerfed
just playing a game where the majority of players don't have the involvement or investment ideals that a higher percentage of players seem to have in a p 2p game.
The best f2p games I've played we're once p2p. Guild wars 2 suck IMO. Eve ftw.
I checked out FFXIV and honestly the graphics are great the Interface/Control Layout feels exactly like Final Fantasy XI only better and no need to do macros like in FFXI UI /firega /wait commands and all that stuff.
Subscription Model MMO's are not bad Games I actively spend around $30-$60 a month on subscription MMO's sometimes multiple subscriptions to the same MMO like DarkFall/EVE Online and that isn't bad.
The Problem with F2P MMO's is that they are done wrong developers are getting too greedy asking too much, going into open beta before its even ready for open beta, and I will give some examples of such.
1. APB, the Original Game was great, had the company have had founding I would have completely stayed subscribed to the game heck I had 6+ Moths paid in subscription already before the game closed down I love APB, I do not like APB Reloaded because Gamers First had bad customer service, and gets Greedy its no longer a game of skill its a game of Pay 2 enjoy/Win depending the way you see it.
2. FireFall another good game could have been but the developers did not listen to any of the feedback I gave them during closed BETA so I quit playing, the game honestly uses up too much memory, its not as smooth as it could be and the models of the characters look cartoony not High-Definition, I want to see realistic character models and armors.
3. Infestation/War Z, still another failure of a game could have been great but lack of development, character models are not too bad, but when you stick body armor on them it looks all bulky not rendered that great.
4. Lets not forget TERA Online Buggy UI with resolution bugs reported as a collectors edition buyer, I was lied to/mislead by the company when I bought it, company refused to provide good customer service, and then game goes F2P Because it can't even survive same thing with Aion, and The Secret World, All these games were failures and while people will debate me of course its just my opinion but now they will survive of cash shops and people who spend money a minimum to keep a small developer team keep the game up add new content here and there and make profit.
Guild Wars 2, Isnt the best I don't love it personally but I agree they did a good job for those who do like it I would give a thumbs up to this game.
Defiance is a F2P Game, but looks way better than FireFall developed off the movie of course and likely more funding than FIreFall even had though, also I am quite impressed with the memory usage of this game and smooth game-play.
Heck even Global Agenda, is better than Fire-Fall, of course its an opinion.
Age of Wushu is another game that could have been great but they refused to deal with the exploiters, lack of encryption, banned many innocent accounts whose users didn't cheat, failed to provide A+ Customer service no perm Clothing at the time, or mounts, now it costs about $60 to buy a perm clothing set I want on my character, but no perm mounts even if they added I would spend about $100 to get my character like I want it but am not doing it because I feel the game has went down hill and finally they start to listen, well its too late they lost me as a customer.
F2P Games, are not the bomb is what I am saying Pay 2 Play is still the way to go I believe because $15 a month seems reasonable compared to spending $30 or $60 + in a F2P Game then dropping out because you get bored want more cash shop items have to keep paying out of your pocket if you want them.
A big part of the problem with debates on forums like these, is that people will pick an argument, pick one 'detail' that suits them and cling to it, while ignoring all other factors.
1. Most people in WoW are fine. The only reason there seems to be "more" of the jerks is because they're also the most vocal. Most people are just playing the game. I'm sure every single person on these forums knows several people, at least, who play WoW and whom don't carry on like jerks when they're playing. I certainly do. Yet people will come onto a forum, and make these broad-sweeping generalizations, painting an entire community as "bad" - even though they know better. Just to "make a point".
2. It's a numbers game. When you have more people playing a game (in WoW's case, millions), you're going to get a higher number of jerks among them. Consider how just 2 or 3 people let loose on a message forum can make it seem like nothing but a cesspit of negativity, even though most people are level-headed and normal individuals. Now consider what many more than that let loose on an area/global/local chat in a MMO could seem like.
Take the whole Mac vs. PC thing. Mac owners love to claim "Macs get fewer viruses". Yes, but Mac also has a far smaller market share; fewer people using them. Linux has arguably even fewer. People who write viruses want to affect as many people as they can, so they're going to go for the largest community they can find... In this case: PC. More users, hence more viruses. Again, it's a numbers game.
3. A subscription does not prevent idiots from getting into a game. It does present a barrier-to-entry that keeps far more of them out than a F2P MMO with no barrier at all.
TERA's community was fine; no worse than any MMO I've played with Open PvP. And again, it's a small portion of the population making all the noise, not "the entire population".
Stop generalizing.
People like the ones we're talking about here, above all, want an"audience". But they don't want (or can't afford) to keep spending money on new games and sub fees to get it. F2P is a godsend for them.
Having a sub still keeps more jerks out games than going F2P does.
I don't think anyone's ever claimed "there are no idiots in P2P MMOs".
It's a question of "which one is worse? P2P or F2P?"
The answer is, quite decisively, F2P.
Due simply to the fact that there's a barrier-of-entry, P2P MMOs consistently have far better communities, with far fewer idiots, than F2P MMOs.
So according to you since WOW the last successful P2P MMO there has not been one quality MMO?
But wait a minute... FFXIV is that quality MMO we have all been waiting for? the 'one' has finally arrived!!
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
The "one"? FFXI already exists as a p2p game, and has before WoW so it wouldn't even be the "one" for Square Enix.
F2P is popular no doubt, I mean you have players (many of whom are on this board) who go out and spend hundreds of dollars a month on cash shop games. Plus with no barrier to entry in the form of paying to play the game they can attract a lot of fish, they hook a few and those people drop a couple thousand dollars on a game.
They are more profitable than a whole guild subbing to the game for years. They don't even have to stick around after they drop their cash in the shop, they can disappear the next day and the company makes more money since they no longer have to house their character/develop content for them.
If you honestly believe the line that all those F2P conversions you speak of HAD to go f2p or they wouldn't be able to keep the servers alive then you must believe they were indeed subpar and not worth paying to play and accept that FFXI and Darkfall, and all the other P2P games are better because they survived. As did FFXIV 1.0 which after dropping their apologetic "free month extension" grew its subscription base threefold. So even FFXIV a game that Square Enix found unacceptable in its current state, still managed to stay alive without resorting to a cash shop. Does that mean it is better than all the other games released since WoW?
Personally I find greed to be a much more plausible explanation. People who wanted money, and they wanted it right now. Just like gamers who want cash shop items and they want it now. The appeal is not a mystery, but it is not universal thankfully.
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http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
FFXI was released in times when P2P model was viable. I am talking about current times when it is almost impossible for MMOS to survive as P2P . The person i quoted made a statement that all MMOS going F2P recently is because of lack of quality. That is why i said 'FFXIV is the one'... (as in NEO from Matrix) to save us from evil of F2P. Because according to his post FFXIV is the only quality MMO to release since WOW that warrants a subscription.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Why would a game so old would go F2P now? because these games have paid for themselves 100 times over by now. After 11 or 12 years it is all about keeping the server running without worrying about making the initial investment back.
So nope that is not my 'logic'. I am talking about current times and new releases which have very hard time due to very high competition and general lack in interest of gamers to support P2P model. Moreover MMOS cost a lot more than it used to in times of FFXI and FFXIV is being made twice now.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
It's not like they just leave the servers up you know? They are still releasing patches and expansions even today. I think you're just trying to defend your logic. But, going by your new logic why is Everquest now F2P? It was released around the same time as FFXI.
I mean either your right or your wrong but this time it seems you're neither.
EQ is going F2P because it is SOE and according to them the population isn't good enough (even though EQ population is still higher than P2P MMOS like Warhammer Online). By the way option to sub is still there so it is not a complete F2P. it is following same model as EQ2. Their decision to make EQ F2P has more to do with cash shop than population.
Every MMO release patches and content releases but that is not same as making huge investments at the time of release.
Also i don't know what is this logic you keep talking about? my argument is simple..in current times when P2P MMOS are failing left and right..a game has to be really exceptional to survive as P2P.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Some people dont get it. The MMO industry is in the middle of a quantum shift. SoE product, SWToR, LotR have made a F2P model that lets you put your time in a game for free right up to top level. Now you are invested and love the game. To get full access to the top level content and play with the top level community you need to start paying. Its a really smart business model but here is where the quantum shift is.
MMOs that have smart management have all moved to this model because of a few reasons and will force the rest of the market to make the same switch or slowly get choked from the supply of new gamers wanting to try your game. 20 people looking for a new MMO home. They have lets say 50 MMOs to pick from (we know its a lot more) 5 of them are P2P and the rest all have the F2P model up to top level. Of the 20 players how many will try the one they need to start paying right from the start, box price + a sub? Maybe a few. But you have to see of the 50 the majority will try something F2P to see if they like it first as its FREE.
Along the way, F2P players do spend money, cash shop things like extra bag space (because they have less being a F2P player) A couple char slots so they can make another char to try another class. All of a sudden you are making money as well as getting new players. If a MMO does not conform to this new model they are turning away many many new players. In the end as you lose players to new MMOs and the many other reasons people leave MMOs, you now are shrinking you player base quicker because you are gaining less new players to off set this common tread in MMOs, people leave games.
FF14 may have ever intention to not go F2P but they will one day as the market will force them to if they want to gain new players!!! This is the life blood on any MMO, people!!!
WoW clone done worse? how exactly and why, so it's a clone because it has Quest NPC's? you ppl make me laugh seriously, explain to us why it is done worse, imo the experience i had in beta in this game has out-wieghed any experience i had in WoW.
Hell just the community in this game is much better than near any other mmo i have played bar ff11
The only reason this game will fail as a sub is because let's face it nobody wants to play sub based games anymore, have you not noticed that near every major title on the maket is going or has gone F2P, i hope it stays sub based so there will be a decent community for a change, the level of playerbase maturity in MMO's have taken a major dive in recent years, an MMO is meant to be about the community imo but it unfortunately has inherited alot of the wrong crowd as it is no longer a community driven genre as it quite often is used as a griefing tool and i'm sure ppl know what i mean and if you don't then i'm sure you have at some point been subject to slander, abuse, bullying e.t.c e.t.c
Not trying to start an argument but am just wondering why it is that it is worse done than WoW, you took it upon yourself to make such a bold statement i think you could atleast grant us the wisdom of knowing why you think that is.
if i list the reasons for me to play, or not to play FF14:ARR, the fact that it's subscription based falls in the "reasons to play"
in terms of building community, there is not really any substitute than having the players feel as many ties to their character as possible. this includes the financial tie of a sub. couple this with the fact that you have one character with multiple classes as opposed to alts, making it difficult to hide on an alt when you've been a jerk, and that's actually the start of a thriving community with a much lower jerk factor than most games.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Luckily you can enjoy your "current times" with Doogiehowser in a number of fantastic and vast cash shop fueled experiences offered and promoted on this website.
And those of us who prefer monthly subscription based MMORPG's can continue to enjoy MMORPG's produced and developed by a massive company such as Square Enix who can afford to keep the lights on for us, and content rolling in without panicking and going all "extra Bag slots for $30!!!!!!" on us.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan