Originally posted by rbialoYou may have a point but your choice of games as examples of failure invalidate your whole post. AoC or TsW has a good launch? No FC game has a good launch ever. Lotro was gone in 3 to 6 months?! Maybe so if you were born a year ago. I did not played many other games but I personally know ppl who still enjoy Aion or GW2 and they say those games are far from "having no staying power". Please take some time and read about the games you are calling before some one start making jokes of you. P.S. If it is just another attempt to say "Vanila WoW or bust" - thats a real fail.
Actually the games you listed have failed and were forced to go ftp to make a ahort lived profit and now are on a decline... good job in writing a opinion and stating it as facts,
Yes the genre has become lame kiddie games made for your average forum crybaby. The truth is many people have started to sit on the side lines and given up on any meaningful game ever being released.
LOL no form of wow was worth playing in my opinion. I mean its pretty sad i have to play A game from the late 90's (asherons call) .
But anyway I agree with the og poster make a game a challenging and you will get more players.
I won't "quote fight" because I feel we agree on a matter. So just to explain my self, all I said (or wanted to) was that:
- Lotro was good at its times. It was much more then "3 to 6 months" gameplay. Its current state, a steep downhill that began shortly after F2P, should not overshadow (is that right word?) the fact that it WAS A GREAT MMO ONCE.
- AoC and TsW where never great, but not because they were too easy, too casual. Main reason was a technical problems with engine and many bugs. You can't say "they were good at launch but could not hold players for long" because those games were never in a state that would allow honest validation of pure gameplay. You always has to fight with GUI or graphical glitch or some other bugs.
Ofc this is an opinion and it is just as valid as Yours or OP opinion. I believe thats why people use forums: to share opinions and maybe consider a different point of view.
You may have a point but your choice of games as examples of failure invalidate your whole post.
AoC or TsW has a good launch? No FC game has a good launch ever. Lotro was gone in 3 to 6 months?! Maybe so if you were born a year ago. I did not played many other games but I personally know ppl who still enjoy Aion or GW2 and they say those games are far from "having no staying power".
Please take some time and read about the games you are calling before some one start making jokes of you.
P.S. If it is just another attempt to say "Vanila WoW or bust" - thats a real fail.
How is that fail ? I bet the majority would agree it has been WoW or bust. Can the genre be great again ? Sure it can but not the path they have chosen.
The problem, as rbialo tried to pointed out. All of your criticism come down to failures WoW introduced into the genre, and all other after them copied that from WoW. WoW Vanilla releasing today would fail and die out after 3 month as any other MMO.
You take the same line as everyone, but without a clue, without knowing that WoW is responsible for all those problems we do have. And.. to have easy entry is not really a problem.. the mantra easy to learn hard to master holds still true, the problem is much more the implementation of this mantra.. because it never starts to get hard.
Yes gratification is the point. But the genre was based around you building up your character and working for your weapons and gear. It was always a different experience than playing a console game. Their was depth, it took a while to learn the game; you actually explored to find the next area. You met friends along the way because you needed them to progress. the genre has completely changed both styles are gratifying its just sadly only one of those type of games exists anymore. Things took time to accomplish because these are not games that have an ending; working hard for a rare weapon or piece of armor was extremely gratifying. Most importantly it was an honor to be a high level and to get access to high level areas not a right like it is now. The content was the world and not the next cut scene.
Eh, I don't think I'd call early MMORPGs especially deep. I can't speak for EQ or UO, but the ~10 pre-WOW MMORPGs I did play were fairly shallow games. Sometimes you'd get a glimmer of an interesting deep mechanic (AC1's progression system) but it'd be sort of an isolated example (buried underneath hours of super-monotonous, shallow AC1 combat grinding.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Probably one of the biggest reason why mmos fail so hard these days. There is no challenge, everything can be bought from a cash shop nowadays and everything is so simplified so everyone's grandmother can understand how to play. It really is quite laughable what developers think of us as gamers. They think we are so stupid that every time they make a game they need to re-teach us how to play. Really ? Listen up devs, we aren't stupid, we been playing mmos probably a lot longer than most of you out there. You guys lack so much vision on what mmos should be and you only worry about your quarterly earnings.
Since vanilla WoW there hasn't been a mmo that has captured the hearts of gamers. Lotro, Aion, Age of Conan, The Secret World, Warhammer Online, Defiance, Rift, Free Realms, GW2, The Old Republic , Tera and I'm probably missing a few but feel free to add on to some more mmo failures. Guess what all these have in common, they had all had good launches but long term they have failed so miserably. Within 3-6 months just about every mmo I mentioned has had no staying power whatsoever.
Think about that. Developers spend 5-7 years making a theme park mmos just so it can fail 6 months down the road. That is a whole lot of wasted time and 75% of the time these mmos haven't even made a profit within a 6 month period. Sad isn't it ?
I think for me personally I am almost done with mmos. I'm waiting for Destiny and The Division to come to console. I'm not sure I want to waste more money on games that have no longevity to them. Quality > quantity.
Thing is kids these days are force fed shitty games like most of the ones that come out for the consoles these days and the worst of all is that peice of horse shit called COD. This game has developed a new kind of gamer. I call them the "intant gratificationers" This kind of gamer doesnt care for story or gameplay or graphics, all they care about is the next unlock.
Cod is the best example of this as you can literally play for an hour and unlock half the stuff the game has. And it requires no real effort either. Unfortunately this gamer type is the most popular and they migrate from game type to game type ruining each one they touch. MMOs players are suffering the consequences. MMOs used to be a challenge and an Adventure. Everquest for example. i remember the first time i played with my friends. on my list it was the second best MMO ive ever played. You have to search for everything enemies were tough and bosses were tougher. you actually had to plan your battle you couldnt just rush in like now a days.
You want to blame the fall of MMOs on anything? blame it on the shit heads who complain about " the games to hard cause i cant level up in a weeks time or get my legendary gear in a single dungeon run." Blame the instant gratificationers.
Dont blame the devs. Their company aims for where the money is at so who should they please right? the tiny group of vintage mmo players, or the massive group of new age mmo players?
Originally posted by ray12k I stating a fact.... They are not going to other mmorpgs. they are leaving the market. Even if you go blizzards numbers alone...Showing revenue of one year for all mmos proves what. We are talking about mmorpg. Frckn call of duty is a mmo.... lol
It would be a marvelous thing if you showed us the source of your facts. Because all the facts I'm seeing show that more and more money is being pumped into the MMORPG genre. This wouldn't be the case if developers didn't have reliable information telling them that more and more money couldn't be pumped out of the market. The people investing in MMORPGs, who aren't the developers, are certainly looking at the market to see if it's a viable source of income.
At the same time, suppose MMORPG players don't immediately jump on to the next MMORPG their eyes happen to see. What is to stop them from playing another MMORPG a few months later? Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that most players do not care about the arbitrary categories that games are slotted in. They don't care that they aren't playing an MMORPG right now, and when another game comes along that looks like a game they like, they will play it, even though it means entering the MMORPG 'market' again.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
WoT, LoL, SWTOR. Naming just 3 specific blockbuster titles, despite the market where WoW players might dissolve into is much larger than that.
Games go F2P because it is simply better revenue model - no entry fee obstruction, higher revenue per cap. All fitting much better competitive market MMO market has become.
And to inform YOU, your arbitrary qualifiers what is considered MMO, "healthy" or "fail" are irrelevant.
WOT and LOL are not mmorpgs. swtor is losing subs as the link I gave you stated. No games go ftp because pwoplw are unwilling to resubscribe. With subscriptions you can budget and manage your revenue on a long term scale. In ftp its like being on call you never know what the revenue will be.
Trust me no one makes a long term game with the ftp game model in mind. FTP have a spike of inflow then it dries up. Like a sugar rush when you eat one of those lolly pops in your mind bubble. FTP has brought nothing to the market, people dl the game play a week delete it.
To inform you numbers dont lie, your simple mindset stuck on trying to be right wont help you here brah. BTW google words before you use them and learn the meaning of arbitrary.
Why should we trust you "random bloke on a forum with no data to back up what he says" here's a list of pure F2P games that have been around longer than 3 years or more and are still going strong.
Silkroad Online - 2004
Perfect World - 2005
Last Chaos - 2006
Fiesta Online - 2007
Atlantica Online - 2008
Cabal Online - 2008
Runes Of Magic - 2008
Jade Dynasty - 2009
4story - 2009
Asda Story - 2009
Allods Online - 2009
There are many more but of course they are not built for long term play are they. You should tell that to the playerbase that's kept each game going and profitable. And to cap it all the biggest western F2P game in the modern era League Of Legends released in 2008 and the biggest in the East, Dungeon & Fighter released 2005 and made Nexon one of the worlds richest gaming companies.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
League of Legends, probably the most popular online game in the world at this time is also the most complex and deep game in its genre. That's right developers! The most complex MOBA is the most popular.
Lesson: Quit treating people like chumps. If the game is good people will strive to learn it and get better.
MAKE CHALLENGING GAMES NOOOOW.
please?
Your comment is beautiful in so many ways you can't possibly imagine! QFT!
I think that developers in general should make all kinds of games. Some people wat to play casual MMOs, some want difficult MMOs, some want games where you can play in the middle.
I think where the developers actually screwed up is in assuming the "difficult game" population was a lot smaller than it actually is. And thinking the "casual game" croud was larger, and (this is important) more loyal than it actually is. I bet you that you will be seeing more deep games with decent learning-curves coming out in the next few years. remember games take so long to develop that for them to react to a pattern takes a lot longer than it does for us to spot the pattern.
but in the end i bet we get some games that better suit our needs. (i say "our" because i count myself into the lot of people who like complex, deep games).
thanks for reading.
Itch
Da Skull
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
League of Legends, probably the most popular online game in the world at this time is also the most complex and deep game in its genre. That's right developers! The most complex MOBA is the most popular.
Lesson: Quit treating people like chumps. If the game is good people will strive to learn it and get better.
MAKE CHALLENGING GAMES NOOOOW.
please?
Your comment is beautiful in so many ways you can't possibly imagine! QFT!
Why is it then that I read time and time again that LoL is a dumbed down version of Dota? and the common line with MMO vets is that WoW is a dumbed down version of EQ. Are you making the same mistake twice?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
It's the world in general. Everyone wants everything instantly these days and this leads to these bad titles being released.
MMOs should require time to build up your characters and they should be aswell more about building relationships with other people.
How is it "bad" for everyone ... if everyone indeed wants instant fun, and games provide that? It would be "bad" for them if MMOs require time, because that is not what players want.
You may want to work on your logic.
What you want to say is "I don't like what is being provided today". We get that. So? The market is not obliged to cater to you. It is a free world. Devs can cater to anyone they want. It is not "bad" if they decide to cater to someone other than you.
And why should MMO require time for anything? It is just a preference. I don't play MMOs (or any other games) to build relationships with anyone.
Then play a single player rpg...
Which i do .. but some MMORPGs can be decent SP RPGs ... and there is no reason to ignore them. More fun is always good (at least for me).
League of Legends, probably the most popular online game in the world at this time is also the most complex and deep game in its genre. That's right developers! The most complex MOBA is the most popular.
Lesson: Quit treating people like chumps. If the game is good people will strive to learn it and get better.
MAKE CHALLENGING GAMES NOOOOW.
please?
Your comment is beautiful in so many ways you can't possibly imagine! QFT!
Why is it then that I read time and time again that LoL is a dumbed down version of Dota? and the common line with MMO vets is that WoW is a dumbed down version of EQ. Are you making the same mistake twice?
Because it is. MOBAs in general are littered with "false choices" and a ton of complexity without depth to keep people playing them. There's wisdom in the desire for games that "take 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master" and MOBAs (along with modern MMOs) are quite the opposite of that.
Appealing to the average is a tried and true formula for commercial success in entertainment industry, and that is nothing new. I think Vanilla WoW was a half finished game at launch with only one out of three talent trees viable on raids for most classes, and there were no battlegrounds. The 40 man raids were easy and repetitive, it was just a question of gearing up for the fight more than the actual boss fights - so to make up for the lack of genuine challenge the set drops had to be sparse to make sure the guilds don't breeze through the content too quickly. There was not much competition at the time, if vanilla wow was to be released today it would die a fast death.
There's absolutely no proof on that page saying that those who quit WoW leave the market.
Ah, but I personally know over 20 people who previously played WOW (and many other titles) are no longer in the MMORPG market, or if still in it are largely playing older freeshard versions of games we used to love.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Originally posted by FoeHammerJTHopefully, developers are paying attention.League of Legends, probably the most popular online game in the world at this time is also the most complex and deep game in its genre. That's right developers! The most complex MOBA is the most popular.Lesson: Quit treating people like chumps. If the game is good people will strive to learn it and get better.MAKE CHALLENGING GAMES NOOOOW.please?
Your comment is beautiful in so many ways you can't possibly imagine! QFT!
Arena Net went with the "Make Challenging Games" idea with their first adventure box. You know what they got? Incessant complaints about how Arena Net was trying to push people to buy their cash shop coins for progression.
It is true that if a game is good, people will play it, but "good" for MOBAs isn't the same thing as "good" for MMORPGs. "Good" for any game is mostly a matter of preference, not some checklist of features.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Sure thing. By 'increasing', what is it you are looking for exactly? Number of titles? Gaming market share? Revenue? Audience? Let me know and I'll give you the links.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Back when "old school" MMOs were at their top - EQ, UO and AC1 - less than a million total players for all of them.
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Back when "old school" MMOs were at their top - EQ, UO and AC1 - less than a million total players for all of them.
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Back when "old school" MMOs were at their top - EQ, UO and AC1 - less than a million total players for all of them.
Narius, if you look at that graph you posted, there's a really interesting dip that seems to move on a consistent 10-11 month cycle. I'm curious what causes that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Sure thing. By 'increasing', what is it you are looking for exactly? Number of titles? Gaming market share? Revenue? Audience? Let me know and I'll give you the links.
I'm mainly just curious about number of players and what games are included. I have no doubt this can be distorted by f2p and stuff.
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Sure thing. By 'increasing', what is it you are looking for exactly? Number of titles? Gaming market share? Revenue? Audience? Let me know and I'll give you the links.
I'm mainly just curious about number of players and what games are included. I have no doubt this can be distorted by f2p and stuff.
Are you suggesting F2P MMO data shouldn't be counted? To answer your question, though, the Global Collect report and Narius' link have your answers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Sure thing. By 'increasing', what is it you are looking for exactly? Number of titles? Gaming market share? Revenue? Audience? Let me know and I'll give you the links.
I'm mainly just curious about number of players and what games are included. I have no doubt this can be distorted by f2p and stuff.
Are you suggesting F2P MMO data shouldn't be counted? To answer your question, though, the Global Collect report and Narius' link have your answers.
I'm suggesting that when looking at the number of people playing games, something like letting people play for free is something to consider.
Also, I found Narius' link and it doesn't say anything about what games they're counting. Like I said, I'm mainly interested in if they're counting MOBAs. And I don't know what the Global Collect Report is.
EDIT: Actually I think Narius' link does include MOBA's.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Probably one of the biggest reason why mmos fail so hard these days. There is no challenge, everything can be bought from a cash shop nowadays and everything is so simplified so everyone's grandmother can understand how to play. It really is quite laughable what developers think of us as gamers. They think we are so stupid that every time they make a game they need to re-teach us how to play. Really ? Listen up devs, we aren't stupid, we been playing mmos probably a lot longer than most of you out there. You guys lack so much vision on what mmos should be and you only worry about your quarterly earnings.Since vanilla WoW there hasn't been a mmo that has captured the hearts of gamers. Lotro, Aion, Age of Conan, The Secret World, Warhammer Online, Defiance, Rift, Free Realms, GW2, The Old Republic , Tera and I'm probably missing a few but feel free to add on to some more mmo failures. Guess what all these have in common, they had all had good launches but long term they have failed so miserably. Within 3-6 months just about every mmo I mentioned has had no staying power whatsoever.Think about that. Developers spend 5-7 years making a theme park mmos just so it can fail 6 months down the road. That is a whole lot of wasted time and 75% of the time these mmos haven't even made a profit within a 6 month period. Sad isn't it ? I think for me personally I am almost done with mmos. I'm waiting for Destiny and The Division to come to console. I'm not sure I want to waste more money on games that have no longevity to them. Quality > quantity.
Thomas this is true sir. I just simply long for the day where I can once again fully envelop myself in a fantasy world. I haven't experienced that feeling in so long, since SWG actually. It's sad.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Comments
I won't "quote fight" because I feel we agree on a matter. So just to explain my self, all I said (or wanted to) was that:
- Lotro was good at its times. It was much more then "3 to 6 months" gameplay. Its current state, a steep downhill that began shortly after F2P, should not overshadow (is that right word?) the fact that it WAS A GREAT MMO ONCE.
- AoC and TsW where never great, but not because they were too easy, too casual. Main reason was a technical problems with engine and many bugs. You can't say "they were good at launch but could not hold players for long" because those games were never in a state that would allow honest validation of pure gameplay. You always has to fight with GUI or graphical glitch or some other bugs.
Ofc this is an opinion and it is just as valid as Yours or OP opinion. I believe thats why people use forums: to share opinions and maybe consider a different point of view.
The problem, as rbialo tried to pointed out. All of your criticism come down to failures WoW introduced into the genre, and all other after them copied that from WoW. WoW Vanilla releasing today would fail and die out after 3 month as any other MMO.
You take the same line as everyone, but without a clue, without knowing that WoW is responsible for all those problems we do have. And.. to have easy entry is not really a problem.. the mantra easy to learn hard to master holds still true, the problem is much more the implementation of this mantra.. because it never starts to get hard.
Eh, I don't think I'd call early MMORPGs especially deep. I can't speak for EQ or UO, but the ~10 pre-WOW MMORPGs I did play were fairly shallow games. Sometimes you'd get a glimmer of an interesting deep mechanic (AC1's progression system) but it'd be sort of an isolated example (buried underneath hours of super-monotonous, shallow AC1 combat grinding.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Thing is kids these days are force fed shitty games like most of the ones that come out for the consoles these days and the worst of all is that peice of horse shit called COD. This game has developed a new kind of gamer. I call them the "intant gratificationers" This kind of gamer doesnt care for story or gameplay or graphics, all they care about is the next unlock.
Cod is the best example of this as you can literally play for an hour and unlock half the stuff the game has. And it requires no real effort either. Unfortunately this gamer type is the most popular and they migrate from game type to game type ruining each one they touch. MMOs players are suffering the consequences. MMOs used to be a challenge and an Adventure. Everquest for example. i remember the first time i played with my friends. on my list it was the second best MMO ive ever played. You have to search for everything enemies were tough and bosses were tougher. you actually had to plan your battle you couldnt just rush in like now a days.
You want to blame the fall of MMOs on anything? blame it on the shit heads who complain about " the games to hard cause i cant level up in a weeks time or get my legendary gear in a single dungeon run." Blame the instant gratificationers.
Dont blame the devs. Their company aims for where the money is at so who should they please right? the tiny group of vintage mmo players, or the massive group of new age mmo players?
It would be a marvelous thing if you showed us the source of your facts. Because all the facts I'm seeing show that more and more money is being pumped into the MMORPG genre. This wouldn't be the case if developers didn't have reliable information telling them that more and more money couldn't be pumped out of the market. The people investing in MMORPGs, who aren't the developers, are certainly looking at the market to see if it's a viable source of income.
At the same time, suppose MMORPG players don't immediately jump on to the next MMORPG their eyes happen to see. What is to stop them from playing another MMORPG a few months later? Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that most players do not care about the arbitrary categories that games are slotted in. They don't care that they aren't playing an MMORPG right now, and when another game comes along that looks like a game they like, they will play it, even though it means entering the MMORPG 'market' again.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Why should we trust you "random bloke on a forum with no data to back up what he says" here's a list of pure F2P games that have been around longer than 3 years or more and are still going strong.
Silkroad Online - 2004
Perfect World - 2005
Last Chaos - 2006
Fiesta Online - 2007
Atlantica Online - 2008
Cabal Online - 2008
Runes Of Magic - 2008
Jade Dynasty - 2009
4story - 2009
Asda Story - 2009
Allods Online - 2009
There are many more but of course they are not built for long term play are they. You should tell that to the playerbase that's kept each game going and profitable. And to cap it all the biggest western F2P game in the modern era League Of Legends released in 2008 and the biggest in the East, Dungeon & Fighter released 2005 and made Nexon one of the worlds richest gaming companies.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
^ QFT
Ratero.
Your comment is beautiful in so many ways you can't possibly imagine! QFT!
I think that developers in general should make all kinds of games. Some people wat to play casual MMOs, some want difficult MMOs, some want games where you can play in the middle.
I think where the developers actually screwed up is in assuming the "difficult game" population was a lot smaller than it actually is. And thinking the "casual game" croud was larger, and (this is important) more loyal than it actually is. I bet you that you will be seeing more deep games with decent learning-curves coming out in the next few years. remember games take so long to develop that for them to react to a pattern takes a lot longer than it does for us to spot the pattern.
but in the end i bet we get some games that better suit our needs. (i say "our" because i count myself into the lot of people who like complex, deep games).
thanks for reading.
Itch
Da Skull
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Why is it then that I read time and time again that LoL is a dumbed down version of Dota? and the common line with MMO vets is that WoW is a dumbed down version of EQ. Are you making the same mistake twice?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Which i do .. but some MMORPGs can be decent SP RPGs ... and there is no reason to ignore them. More fun is always good (at least for me).
Because it is. MOBAs in general are littered with "false choices" and a ton of complexity without depth to keep people playing them. There's wisdom in the desire for games that "take 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master" and MOBAs (along with modern MMOs) are quite the opposite of that.
Ah, but I personally know over 20 people who previously played WOW (and many other titles) are no longer in the MMORPG market, or if still in it are largely playing older freeshard versions of games we used to love.
Pretty much all the proof I need.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Arena Net went with the "Make Challenging Games" idea with their first adventure box. You know what they got? Incessant complaints about how Arena Net was trying to push people to buy their cash shop coins for progression.
It is true that if a game is good, people will play it, but "good" for MOBAs isn't the same thing as "good" for MMORPGs. "Good" for any game is mostly a matter of preference, not some checklist of features.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Can anybody point me towards a source that shows the MMO genre is increasing? Also I'd be curious to know what games they're including... specifically if they're including MOBAs.
Even if the genre is increasing, I don't think that is necessarily evidence of anything, certainly not evidence that they're good. But I am curious to see the numbers because a lot of people throw that fact around without backing it up.
Sure thing. By 'increasing', what is it you are looking for exactly? Number of titles? Gaming market share? Revenue? Audience? Let me know and I'll give you the links.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Back when "old school" MMOs were at their top - EQ, UO and AC1 - less than a million total players for all of them.
Do I really need to continue?
My computer is better than yours.
http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/
Just look at the graph.
See also: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/192916/Global_Games_Market_Grows_6_to_704bn_in_2013.php
"14% year-on-year growth for MMO games, totaling $14.9 billion."
Narius, if you look at that graph you posted, there's a really interesting dip that seems to move on a consistent 10-11 month cycle. I'm curious what causes that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm mainly just curious about number of players and what games are included. I have no doubt this can be distorted by f2p and stuff.
Are you suggesting F2P MMO data shouldn't be counted? To answer your question, though, the Global Collect report and Narius' link have your answers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Keep your fingers crossed then.. There are others working on such concepts.. Only time will tell, really..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
I'm suggesting that when looking at the number of people playing games, something like letting people play for free is something to consider.
Also, I found Narius' link and it doesn't say anything about what games they're counting. Like I said, I'm mainly interested in if they're counting MOBAs. And I don't know what the Global Collect Report is.
EDIT: Actually I think Narius' link does include MOBA's.
http://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/online-games-research/
If that's the case, this data is just about useless.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.