EQN is voxel based, so its visual limitations is even greater than general mmos, be glad it doesn't look like CubeWorld or Trove.
Voxel tech is a massive leap forward in both development speed, cost and manpower usage that also allows for player made content. It's a new start for the mmo genre, so yes, get used to 8-bit or 16-bit art styles, which seems appropriate somehow, but at least you have this one AAA developer pushing the tech to allow this graphical level.
Voxel tech has been around for ages, don't fall for the SOE buzz word.
But to the OP, This is how MMO should look in 2013.
But yes, judge a game solely on graphics and not on anything else.
Lol, can't press the win button so you make a dumb comment like that. I play Wurm Online which also lets me destroy the world and dig down in vast caverns, make my own mines and gives me a whole blank world to build on, the graphics are pretty dated.
Yeah i judge a game on graphic.
Oh and don't think that anyone who isn't drinking the cool-ade hype is a SOE/EQN hater, i've been playing EQ/EQ2 over the last 13 years.
The Division - MMO - Console..... and PC after hundreds of thousands petitioned for it. Thanks for making the game crappier on Console everyone!
Planetside 2 - "MMO" - PC - Coming to console.... but it's a freakin' shooter, so it's not like we're breaking any moulds here.
If you're going to try to make an intelligent argument, at least be intelligent about it. We're comparing games that are "MMO"s with a questionable-sized persistent universe, completely unknown persistence, or lobby-style gameplay against games that have known universes and persistence.
Also, apart from DCUO, no MMOs have even gone onto next gen consoles, and DCUO would still be constrained by the original design, which was on PS3 as a port from PC. That said, the PS4 version doesn't look horrible, but I expect things to get better on console too with EQN being developed from the ground up with PS4 in mind. So the comparison of next-gen console games (not even here) against games that have been launched is apples to oranges again.
To go one more, again, we're talking about games designed with scalable graphics to those designed for a static set of hardware.
Another issue with your argument is the barriers to entry for developers on something like a console is relatively high in comparison to developing on something like PC. For the PS3, a kit to get a single person up and running could be tens of thousands of dollars. On a PC, you can make use of free tools for both development and rendering and produce something relatively inexpensively. So console development is reserved for those willing to shell out some serious cashola to get going.
For those games that actually DO make use of highly-detailed graphics, they generally crash and burn because of performance issues during online play, or attract a smaller audience because of the hardware requirements, which leads to less money, which means that we're less interested in developing for the top 5% or 10% of the market. Then you've got to hope and PRAY that you capture 100% of those people, of whom MMO players are probably already a small subset. Niche development doesn't pay off at any level, let alone developing for a niche AND only those with the best hardware on the market.
let's compare a single player / MP deathmatch game to an mmo and hope no one notices you are trolling.
for the record, i noticed.
Black Desert did it
I think if you actually looked closely you'd see that the "graphics" (not to be confused with art design) for games like Black Desert are not quite the same as single player games. Oh, they are good, don't get me wrong, but single player games still have better Graphics.
Now, I'm with you as far as "art design". I can stomach stylized games but I much prefer games like Skyrim or Dark Souls or, in your example, Assassin's Creed.
However, "when" a game is released has nothing to do with Art Design. Not all games should, or need, Highly detailed assets.
That's like saying there is no room for this:
When we can have this:
They both have their purpose and both express different ideas. (same artist by the way)
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Neither it nor Black Desert incorporates software like Storybricks though, either. I guess in late 2014/early 2015 we'll see if more-realistic models matter to the audiences.
A storybricks system in mmo's is nothing new, not that i'm not looking forward tom EQN/L
A storybricks system is new. It's trademarked.
So making up your own rpg quests, designing your own scenarios, designing your own persistent mmo is new?
Mobs and npc that travel around the world or only appear at certain times is not new. Plants that can only be found at certain time in the seasons is not new. Animal that travel around in heards and migrate following the seasons is not new.
Check out Ryzom AI system.
In fact the AI you claim to be new is not new.
I'm an EQ vet but don't let the buzz words and hype cloud you, these things are not new.
I feel you're generalizing. Going further we can say city of heroes had player-made content, as does EQ2.
I have no evidence to show this is "better" right now; only my direct quote two games, contributory to the original topic, don't have it. So ok, if you want to be right, you can be right.
It's not about being right, you made a claim that is not true because you probably never heard or knew that Ryzom had these systems.
You believed the SOE buzz words without actually doing your research. I'm not saying that EQL/N won't be a great and fun mmo to play, hell i'm laying down $100 but let's not get carried away with the hype.
It's not about being right, you made a claim that is not true because you probably never heard or knew that Ryzom had these systems.
You believed the SOE buzz words without actually doing your research. I'm not saying that EQL/N won't be a great and fun mmo to play, hell i'm laying down $100 but let's not get carried away with the hype.
Hey, look at the thread title. Do you think Ryzom graphics belong in this conversation?
The issue is graphics in new games and, to some people, who are doing it better. However there's an understood need to allocate resources, so a game may look better but not be as fun, or it may not look as good and have "less-than-realistic" models but have resources allocated to the "dimension" of voxel use or other sandbox elements. Further, such games with the best of both worlds, graphics and sandbox, don't share the same kind of AI engine.
OH but Ryzom, a game that looks like shit by today's standards, does! Who cares, dude? You're off somewhere in space. Get with the program. I was gonna be cool, but damn.
This is the most pointless and pathetic thread ever, we get it, you don't like the art/graphic style, move on to another game then.
It's like saying "HEY OKAMI YOU SHOULD LOOK LIKE CALL OF DUTY COS ITS MORE REALISTIC" Even though Okami won tons of Game of the Year awards.
or - "HEY WOW / WOW EXPANSIONS YOU SHOULD LOOK LIKE ELDERSCROLLS GAMES COS THATS WHAT FANTASY GAMES LOOK LIKE" even tho WoW has sold ten times any Elderscrolls game.
or - "HEY POKEMON YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING LIKE OCARINA OF TIME COS THATS ON 3DS TOO"
or - "HEY ANY GHIBLI MOVIE YOU SHOULD BE FULLY COMPUTER GENERATED LIKE PIXAR MOVIES COS THEY'RE POPULAR" I know that ones off topic, but it's still kinda the same.
My point is, not everything needs realistic graphics. In my opinion EQN has better graphics than any of the games you've mentioned. I prefer them, you don't.
We want it all don't we? We want next-gen single player graphics in a MMO plus all the new innovations such as voxels, procedurely generated content and a silky smooth framerate.
Peoples ignorance becomes quite apparent when they make such demands. Raising a stink and lambasting developers for not trying hard enough isn't a very productive use of one's energy.
SOE has to consider several factors when optimizing their game. Money, human resources, available technology, and average computing power of customers.
You like to point out Black Desert has nicer graphics. Yes, but at what cost? Will the game run smoothly? What features will it have? Who will be able to run the game? What's the cost if creating new character models? All these factors affect one another.
Some of you have to watch the "EQ NEXT: Creating Worlds Panel".
They explain why they gone the the way the art looks like.
First, Voxels are big. They have to build big and stylizied to make it look good or it will look like lego. A good way to see this is the recent live stream, the smallest Voxel was as big as the head of the Avatar.
Second, based on first they could have made realistic looking Avatars but then they would not connect to the created world and would look misplaced.
Best example are the photos used in Southpark to animate Sadam.
this leads to the theme of the art style, which is blocky and edgy. If they never had used Voxels, they could have used a more realistic style
I'm betting that SOE is making a huge mistake when it comes to the graphics of their newest games. They are not making graphics "to last" or to "fit in with voxel" as people often cite in defense of the game (those are coincidental benefits) - they're making them because they unable to stop themselves from blindly copying that game (we all know what it is). It's obvious that they are too focused on brown-nosing producers who don't know shit about the industry - people who think that the only way to be successful is to go "child-stylized" because one game did it and became a billion dollar franchise.
They are making a cartoon MMO. Yet another cartoon MMO. This is going to backfire on them when they realize that gamers are sick and tired of cartoon games for the last 10 freaking years. It was o.k. one time andone time only: le World of Warcraft. Why? Because it was new then and people like new things. I liked it at the time because it was different. But after 5000 iterations of the same thing over a decade? NO. It's simply stale and condescending now. Copying one game simply because it was successful is not going to make your game successful. See every game of the last 10 years for proof. Pull your noses out of greedy-producer assholes and realize that consumers don't inherently like "child-stylized" games and consumers aren't going to reward you simply because your game is "child-stylized". If anything, these graphics are a liability now - not a benefit.
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo Especially if your going to have parkouring and environmental interactions in your game.
I like EQN's graphics. My kid and I love Minecraft and I'm going to buy her the largest supporter package for Christmas and I'm getting one for myself. I'm very much looking forward to this game; and both my kid and I love the graphics!
True it is kid friendly. But I remember when starwars made a kid friendly movie... It was a disaster of a movie. not money wise but fan wise. I hope eq next doesnt have a JarJar in it.
Hehe its not really fair to compare Ubisoft to other game devs. Maybe Rockstar and possibly Naughty Dog, but those are elite game developers.
Im glad they are finally stepping into the mmo scene with The Division and Destiny.
Divison and Destiny are not MMOs.
Really because that public event with all those people in different groups at the end of the 12 minute gameplay video of destiny in that open world map screamed out mmo to me. Same for The Division when they showed all those players on its open world map at the end and two groups of players running into each other and getting into pvp.
You can have up to 6 players on screen at once in both these games unlike a traditional mmo where you can have hundreds.
Fair cop about SP to MMO's, however the point about planetside 2 is valid latest rounds of optimization for the game have made it very good under load, though personnel experiences do differ.
Even if they just pushed up to near the level of PS2 I think all will agree it would look better, same engine but one looks like a re-rendering of WOW and the other looks well good.
PS2 has pretty minimal customization for character models. That's why it can run FPS battles between 200 people and make it work.
But everquest isnt FPS style gameplay so it doesnt have to sacrifice character models for FPS mechanics like real time bullets and no where near as much particle effects as PS2. And I dont mind if they lower the 2000 player to 1000 player limit per map, 1000 is still a lot.
We don't know how much customization EQ will have. I would be willing to bet it is a lot.
Anyhow, this has been debated a dozen times already. "Cartoony" graphics weather time much better than "realistic" graphics. Your example of AC4 will look pathetic in 5 years, whereas EQNext graphics will still look just as fine, although they are still "cartoony" and that doesn't fit everyone's taste.
Funnily enough, the most popular MMO of all times has "cartoony" graphics. Coincidence?
Not a coincidence at all. You can run the game you're talking about on a laptop from 2002. It's so popular because of it's accessibilty. Most people who play don't even know there are bigger better games out there - or can't run them. AC4's graphics won't be comparable to what comes out in 5 years - neither will EQN's, it doesn't even look decent compared to games at the present time. That is what the thread is about. I completely agree with the OP - EQ hasn't had cartoony character models before why were they changed? Trying to beat wow still by applying to the masses? I wish a game dev would ignore wow and forget it exists and just make a damn game.
They are changing their graphics style because EQ2 and EQ have not aged well at all. Go into EQ2 and just check how dated the game looks now. Then check out wow.
I liken it to those triangle plates in some character creation screens. There has to be balance between voxels to the world, the world to the characters and the characters from the previous iterations.
It's not some peoples cup if tea but 10 years later it will look much cleaner than PS2 character models by then IMO.
So theres a limit to how detailed a MMO can be? Does anyone know what it is? And is there a way to fix it? Say for instance, making an insanely powerful engine. Would a more powerful engine alleviate the stress of a graphic intensive gane?
Didn't see anyone mention this in the first few pages, but originally the OP wanted SoE to see an example of how he feels modern MMOs look. A few post later, he uses Planetside 2 as a further example. I'm pretty sure SoE is aware of PS2.
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Lol, can't press the win button so you make a dumb comment like that. I play Wurm Online which also lets me destroy the world and dig down in vast caverns, make my own mines and gives me a whole blank world to build on, the graphics are pretty dated.
Yeah i judge a game on graphic.
Oh and don't think that anyone who isn't drinking the cool-ade hype is a SOE/EQN hater, i've been playing EQ/EQ2 over the last 13 years.
Let's see........
AC - SP - Console
Destiny - MMO - Console
The Division - MMO - Console..... and PC after hundreds of thousands petitioned for it. Thanks for making the game crappier on Console everyone!
Planetside 2 - "MMO" - PC - Coming to console.... but it's a freakin' shooter, so it's not like we're breaking any moulds here.
If you're going to try to make an intelligent argument, at least be intelligent about it. We're comparing games that are "MMO"s with a questionable-sized persistent universe, completely unknown persistence, or lobby-style gameplay against games that have known universes and persistence.
Also, apart from DCUO, no MMOs have even gone onto next gen consoles, and DCUO would still be constrained by the original design, which was on PS3 as a port from PC. That said, the PS4 version doesn't look horrible, but I expect things to get better on console too with EQN being developed from the ground up with PS4 in mind. So the comparison of next-gen console games (not even here) against games that have been launched is apples to oranges again.
To go one more, again, we're talking about games designed with scalable graphics to those designed for a static set of hardware.
Another issue with your argument is the barriers to entry for developers on something like a console is relatively high in comparison to developing on something like PC. For the PS3, a kit to get a single person up and running could be tens of thousands of dollars. On a PC, you can make use of free tools for both development and rendering and produce something relatively inexpensively. So console development is reserved for those willing to shell out some serious cashola to get going.
For those games that actually DO make use of highly-detailed graphics, they generally crash and burn because of performance issues during online play, or attract a smaller audience because of the hardware requirements, which leads to less money, which means that we're less interested in developing for the top 5% or 10% of the market. Then you've got to hope and PRAY that you capture 100% of those people, of whom MMO players are probably already a small subset. Niche development doesn't pay off at any level, let alone developing for a niche AND only those with the best hardware on the market.
Crazkanuk
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I think if you actually looked closely you'd see that the "graphics" (not to be confused with art design) for games like Black Desert are not quite the same as single player games. Oh, they are good, don't get me wrong, but single player games still have better Graphics.
Now, I'm with you as far as "art design". I can stomach stylized games but I much prefer games like Skyrim or Dark Souls or, in your example, Assassin's Creed.
However, "when" a game is released has nothing to do with Art Design. Not all games should, or need, Highly detailed assets.
That's like saying there is no room for this:
When we can have this:
They both have their purpose and both express different ideas. (same artist by the way)
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And why this post fails so bad.
It's not about being right, you made a claim that is not true because you probably never heard or knew that Ryzom had these systems.
You believed the SOE buzz words without actually doing your research. I'm not saying that EQL/N won't be a great and fun mmo to play, hell i'm laying down $100 but let's not get carried away with the hype.
>comparing a single player game to a voxel based MMO
Hey, look at the thread title. Do you think Ryzom graphics belong in this conversation?
The issue is graphics in new games and, to some people, who are doing it better. However there's an understood need to allocate resources, so a game may look better but not be as fun, or it may not look as good and have "less-than-realistic" models but have resources allocated to the "dimension" of voxel use or other sandbox elements. Further, such games with the best of both worlds, graphics and sandbox, don't share the same kind of AI engine.
OH but Ryzom, a game that looks like shit by today's standards, does! Who cares, dude? You're off somewhere in space. Get with the program. I was gonna be cool, but damn.
This is the most pointless and pathetic thread ever, we get it, you don't like the art/graphic style, move on to another game then.
It's like saying "HEY OKAMI YOU SHOULD LOOK LIKE CALL OF DUTY COS ITS MORE REALISTIC" Even though Okami won tons of Game of the Year awards.
or - "HEY WOW / WOW EXPANSIONS YOU SHOULD LOOK LIKE ELDERSCROLLS GAMES COS THATS WHAT FANTASY GAMES LOOK LIKE" even tho WoW has sold ten times any Elderscrolls game.
or - "HEY POKEMON YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING LIKE OCARINA OF TIME COS THATS ON 3DS TOO"
or - "HEY ANY GHIBLI MOVIE YOU SHOULD BE FULLY COMPUTER GENERATED LIKE PIXAR MOVIES COS THEY'RE POPULAR" I know that ones off topic, but it's still kinda the same.
My point is, not everything needs realistic graphics. In my opinion EQN has better graphics than any of the games you've mentioned. I prefer them, you don't.
Peoples ignorance becomes quite apparent when they make such demands. Raising a stink and lambasting developers for not trying hard enough isn't a very productive use of one's energy.
SOE has to consider several factors when optimizing their game. Money, human resources, available technology, and average computing power of customers.
You like to point out Black Desert has nicer graphics. Yes, but at what cost? Will the game run smoothly? What features will it have? Who will be able to run the game? What's the cost if creating new character models? All these factors affect one another.
Some of you have to watch the "EQ NEXT: Creating Worlds Panel".
They explain why they gone the the way the art looks like.
First, Voxels are big. They have to build big and stylizied to make it look good or it will look like lego. A good way to see this is the recent live stream, the smallest Voxel was as big as the head of the Avatar.
Second, based on first they could have made realistic looking Avatars but then they would not connect to the created world and would look misplaced.
Best example are the photos used in Southpark to animate Sadam.
this leads to the theme of the art style, which is blocky and edgy. If they never had used Voxels, they could have used a more realistic style
+1 to this thread.
I'm betting that SOE is making a huge mistake when it comes to the graphics of their newest games. They are not making graphics "to last" or to "fit in with voxel" as people often cite in defense of the game (those are coincidental benefits) - they're making them because they unable to stop themselves from blindly copying that game (we all know what it is). It's obvious that they are too focused on brown-nosing producers who don't know shit about the industry - people who think that the only way to be successful is to go "child-stylized" because one game did it and became a billion dollar franchise.
They are making a cartoon MMO. Yet another cartoon MMO. This is going to backfire on them when they realize that gamers are sick and tired of cartoon games for the last 10 freaking years. It was o.k. one time and one time only: le World of Warcraft. Why? Because it was new then and people like new things. I liked it at the time because it was different. But after 5000 iterations of the same thing over a decade? NO. It's simply stale and condescending now. Copying one game simply because it was successful is not going to make your game successful. See every game of the last 10 years for proof. Pull your noses out of greedy-producer assholes and realize that consumers don't inherently like "child-stylized" games and consumers aren't going to reward you simply because your game is "child-stylized". If anything, these graphics are a liability now - not a benefit.
Single Player games
I like EQN's graphics. My kid and I love Minecraft and I'm going to buy her the largest supporter package for Christmas and I'm getting one for myself. I'm very much looking forward to this game; and both my kid and I love the graphics!
No kidding. People still don't realize the overhead that comes with networking a ton of players together brings to a game.
You make me like charity
You can have up to 6 players on screen at once in both these games unlike a traditional mmo where you can have hundreds.
They are changing their graphics style because EQ2 and EQ have not aged well at all. Go into EQ2 and just check how dated the game looks now. Then check out wow.
It's not some peoples cup if tea but 10 years later it will look much cleaner than PS2 character models by then IMO.
That doesn't explain why EQN looks like crap graphically........
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I derive my strength from passion. Do you feel that? That is what seperates you and I, Jedi!