I really like that argument because it reminds me of MMOs before F2P where the argument was that the person who has more time has the advantage.
Here's a given: Someone, somewhere, is going to have a faster connection, better graphics card, bigger monitor, more precise mouse, more time, more money, better hand-eye coordination, more organized teamwork, etc.
An a related note, another given is that some people will consistently insist that others should be shackled down to the limitations of what they personally have to bring to the game or what they are personally willing to invest in the game.
Please tell me I'm reading this wrong.
Are you saying that not having the option to spend cash in game is being "shackled down" due to not being able or willing to invest more time?
You are completely correct. You're reading your own condition into it and, as a result, reading what isn't there. I did not say it only has to do money or that I supported such a stance even if it only was that. Amazing. I listed quite a few of the possible things one can be limited by, to expressly avoid even the most obtuse of our readers from getting confused.
I failed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't care what person c thinks. I don't care how person b get his legendary. I only care how do I play my game and how do I have fun with it... Why should I care about other players and their way of playing? I'm not playing the Gw2 for show off to other players. I'm playing Gw2 for fun. That's all.
Agreed. I play how I like and others can play how they like.
edit: Remember when people bought infusion or forge runs in GW1? That must have been p2w too. You know some people bought their plat illegally in that game.
Same here. I don't really care how others got their stuff... unless there's a cool story to it. I got some kind of popgun skin in a GW2 event. I don't know how many others have it or how else it can be obtained. I just really like mine and that's all that counts. On the flip side, there are plenty of people with gear that I found really cool. How they got it doesn't change the fact that I think it looks cool.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You don't have a clue what Pay2Win games are like, do you? GW2 isn't P2W, nowhere near it. In Pay2Win games an paying player will OWN a non-paying player in PvP, in some games one heavy-cashshopper can wipe a dozen non-cashshoppers without breaking a sweat. In GW2 a non-cashshopper has access to gear with exactly the same stats as the cashshoppers. There is no P2W in GW2.
You could buy Legendaries and be a bit stronger in WvW than a non-cashshopper who doesn't have the time to acquire the best gear, but the difference is marginal enough that you're not going to be able to wipe a small group just because you bought tons of gems, just to get your Legendary faster.
So if you barely beat someone in WvW due to your buying stuff, and they didn't, you didn't pay to beat them? Got it.
If you don't have the time, nor the skill, nor the money to get that edge that they bought, yes then you'll lose.
You can buy all you want, but it on't help you one bit against a player that actually crafted his legendary. On the contrary, the player that crafted it probably put a lot more thought into what stats he wants for his/her gear. Also there's so much stuff that you'll need that you can't buy, but have to work for, that getting out your wallet just won't cut it.
You probably haven't been doing a lot of WvW, or am I mistaken there?
If you want a completely level playing field, play sPvP. If you want to join the zerg, go with WvW where the numbers will matter, not the difference between Exotic and Legendary.
Nope, I haven't. I didn't like the game myself. The game felt cluttered with quests/hearts or whatever you want to call them and the classes felt bland and I didn't really like any I tried. I wanted to like it. I also am not a big fan of their cash shop, so that doesn't help either. I was hoping for some good old DAoC feel in WvW, but I just couldn't get past what I disliked. I own it, so I can always try it again later though if I decide.
I am not a big fan of a cash shop that has anything but cosmetic for the most part....Their may be some exceptions, but I am not a fan of buying an advantage...I do not have time to 'compete' with those with no job/school either (as I have a job/wife/house etc...), but I would prefer they earn things with time, rather than a credit card. The mmo was b2p, but the cash shop is as bad or worse than a lot of f2p mmos....I thought the b2p was going to help towards them not needing to make the cash shop as reaching as it is.
Originally posted by reaperuk If a game is mainly PvE where you're not in competition with anybody. How can anything be pay to win? Win what? I don't understand these kind of posts.
It's because the definition of p2w has been somewhat distorted to only include pvp content.
P2w is anything that allows you to bypass a particular game mechanic, for example...Going to a cash shop to buy "gems" that increase your rate of enchanting an item that you could not otherwise get in game( and no the auction house doesn't count because some one had to drop money on it.) and not only limited to pvp, but also pve.
Originally posted by Swids2010 I love articles likes this because it just shows the OP has never played a pay to win game. Gw2 Is not pay to win xp boosts and other boost are not pay to win. Now a example of this was say if they put a weapon in the shop that was unattainable in game and lets say this weapon is 200% better than anything you could get in game then it is pay to win.
He's actually making a good point, in that the game has (maybe not by design) turned into one where the two options for a new player are
1. grind for a very long time for the gold needed to get the end-game gear. the time needed to grind for gold in this fashion appears to be rising due to gem/gold exchange rates.
2. just pay for the gear and skip the grinding.
A lot of games do that, and are accurately labeled as P2W.
Originally posted by reaperuk If a game is mainly PvE where you're not in competition with anybody. How can anything be pay to win? Win what? I don't understand these kind of posts.
It's because the definition of p2w has been somewhat distorted to only include pvp content.
P2w is anything that allows you to bypass a particular game mechanic,
There's some definite distortion there, but not where you seem to think it is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by reaperuk If a game is mainly PvE where you're not in competition with anybody. How can anything be pay to win? Win what? I don't understand these kind of posts.
Anytime you see the term "pay to win" just pretend it says "pay to succeed" which is the intention of the phrase. Or just assume that the act of "winning" isn't limited to doing so against other players, but also applies to the various parts of the game itself.
Originally posted by reaperuk If a game is mainly PvE where you're not in competition with anybody. How can anything be pay to win? Win what? I don't understand these kind of posts.
Anytime you see the term "pay to win" just pretend it says "pay to succeed" which is the intention of the phrase. Or just assume that the act of "winning" isn't limited to doing so against other players, but also applies to the various parts of the game itself.
Thank you..you phrased it better than I ever could. ^^
Originally posted by reaperuk If a game is mainly PvE where you're not in competition with anybody. How can anything be pay to win? Win what? I don't understand these kind of posts.
Anytime you see the term "pay to win" just pretend it says "pay to succeed" which is the intention of the phrase. Or just assume that the act of "winning" isn't limited to doing so against other players, but also applies to the various parts of the game itself.
Thank you..you phrased it better than I ever could. ^^
If you think that agony resistance infusions is the primary factor in determining success in fractals, you should play some fractals.
It's just a gear check...
And when ascended armor comes out, these infusions will mean even less...
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
I'm thinking that if Gw 2 had anything to do at level 80 beyond farm a legendary and if said legendary weren't basically available via Gem Store, none of you would even be having this discussion.
But hey I guess when you're "doing the things you loved while leveling!".....
This is what you get. Lol.
"Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune
all agony resistance does is allow you to participate, it's a gating mechanism (like infused gear in GW1). It doesn't suddenly make you a better player that allows you to beat any of the fractals, that is up to the player.
I can't believe this discussion is even continuing, all everybody seems to be doing is going around in circles.
It was RELEASED P2W really if you consider buying gold as a valuable resource, which GW2 having less emphasis on gear through dungeon MADE IT MORE SO. B2P with a cash shop giving advantages always bothered. I get its no sub, but your charging for a box price AND expecting a cash shop thats practically similiar to a F2P game, just SLIGHTLY better. Hell, games like Aion or Tera have a cash shop pretty much on par with GW2 without a box price.
Don't get me wrong, if I actually thought the game was good its a cash shop I could at least 'stomach' and its far from the worst, but its still "P2W" in terms of being able to buy an advantage that only long grinding can achieve.
This is a two way street,they are most certainly trying to mislead users just as all other cash shop games do.The flip side is that MANY ,i would say a very large number only jumped in because it did not carry a sub fee.So both parties are guilty,i am not the hypocrite,i denounce lame gimmicks as calling games free to play when they most certainly are not and i do not support them at all.
point being if you are going to support such gimmicks you are guilty as well,if you support it,that means you want it that way.
IMO it is even more lame to rely on ripping more money out of others to make up for those who spend less.If anyone ever spends more than 15 dollars a month on a game,they should give their heads a shake.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
P2W crowd in this thread is living in fantasy buble. Every mmo I have played had HUGE shadow economy and i knew that even without existence of cash shop a lot of ppl were buying huge amount of gold from gold sellers, paying for lvling, hell I even knew ppl who were buying PvP titles in vannila wow ... They all payed for things with real money and ofc it was officialy illegal. But the fact that it was illegal, didnt made P2W in almost every mainstream MMO imposible. And it was everywhere - buying gold from gold sellers to get money for flasks for raiding is P2W at its best.
Whats the difference to GW2 ? It is that you can basicly buy gold legally (via gems)
Except that I need the protection of the actual armor, I would be running around with out it. I think the chars look good with out it so how can it be pay to look good!
Also getting to max level in around 60 - 70 hours (less than 2 weeks) with out buying cash shop items is not pay to win it is as one other reply stated, pay to be bored, because of lack of things to do. Crafting sucks for lack of ancient timber, dungeons are boring especially after you no longer need tokens, pvp is pointless (kill or be killed) as is wvw. In wvw, you run around knocking down walls so you can take over a building so that minutes after you leave it can be taken back by the other side!
Originally posted by reaperuk If a game is mainly PvE where you're not in competition with anybody. How can anything be pay to win? Win what? I don't understand these kind of posts.
Anytime you see the term "pay to win" just pretend it says "pay to succeed" which is the intention of the phrase. Or just assume that the act of "winning" isn't limited to doing so against other players, but also applies to the various parts of the game itself.
And you care if other people do this because?
Other than being wrong in his p2w=p2s (?), it's probably because we're brought up thinking censorship is right and makes things better for everyone. That same thinking goes into games and people who can't have fun if someone else isn't playing it right.
p2w is buying an advantage you can't earn in game. It's not if it cost money and isn't 100% cosmetic it's p2w.
Originally posted by Swids2010 I love articles likes this because it just shows the OP has never played a pay to win game. Gw2 Is not pay to win xp boosts and other boost are not pay to win. Now a example of this was say if they put a weapon in the shop that was unattainable in game and lets say this weapon is 200% better than anything you could get in game then it is pay to win.
I love reply like this because it just shows the poster does not even read the first paragraph in my post. P2W definition has changed due to the majority amount of F2P(or B2P gw2) introduce a new model that if you don't spend money, you will be spending disgusting amount of time. I do not even need to mention that it seems like you never go beyond my title. Check the gem to gold rate, compare it with any farm method available in game, then come back and blame my lack of knowledge.
I don't mind if you like to spend so much time on seemingly-P2W games like gw2. After all, it is your choice to live your life in the old definition of P2W model.
People who rush the games and want to have all the best items in 2 days call every single non-sub game pay to win. In mmos you are supossed to take your time to get the things you want. If you rush that is your problem, dont call it pay to win because you klilled your own chance to enjoy the game by rushing it then complain that the cash shop had boosts (that you maybe didnt even used to rush).
For people who say that GW2 cash shop is just "pay to look good, therefore is p2w" you have zero idea what p2w is. Also, taste varies per person. I personally only like 1 armor skin from the cash shop (one of the aetherblade). There are a lot of in game armors that are faaar better looking than all the ones in the cash shop. But like i said, that is my personal taste. Just because you prefer the ones in the cash shop it doesnt make the game p2w.
Stop the hate. Period.
Another one who lives in the history.
I spent 8 months leveling and gearing 6 toons of different professions. Now all of them has at least two sets of exotic equipments and all ascended trinkets. I do not know about your understanding on "rush", but I believe I should not be one of those people. After continuously gold-farming cof for at least two month, I realize the indirect P2W aspect in the game, namely instant best equipments with gems. Same model as Rift but sneaky anet managed to make people, at least you, to think this game is not P2W.
Like I said, if you find living in the past enjoyable, I have nothing to say about it.
Originally posted by DakeruOk I had to look this up since I don't do fractals much and won't bother going in before my weekly run tomorrow anyway.So...http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_InfusionYou have to run fractals over and over again to obtain these and refine them. Some people will sell them for a high amount of gold and others will buy gold through gems to easily obtain the infusions.Farming dungeons for money - such a thing has never been heard of.And I have one question here. A new player buys gems and converts them to gold to buy... let's say 20 agony resistance and starts doing fractals. How exactly does he benefit from the resistance from level 1-9?He still has to grind his way up to level 30+ and meanwhile a lot of infusions will drop anyway... A very interesting point I will say. It seems like you forgot to consider the drop rate and crafting formula for the agony infusion. Also, you don't have to start at 1 if you already have enough AR. Doing fotm with a level 40 group could also help you level up your personal fotm and get your reward. Last time I checked, player is able to get higher fotm drops but not even level reward(sucks anyway).
Farming dungeons for money was true in gw2 for cof about at least 10 months. I was excessively doing it(8 hours a day) for two months, while my friend just swiped his card and got stuff instantly.
Originally posted by dgarbiniI do feel since the start of the game, they have steadily introduced more 'grind' less rewards to encourage players to buy gems/gold. Anet is essentially a gold seller here. I would say this is seen in DR, nerfing of Karma, events, and so forth, in general the game is much less rewarding then when it started. This is one of the reasons I often complain about how the game is run.In regards to the new Agony infusions there is a funny thread on the official forums: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/livingworld/fractured/Fun-Facts-about-new-agony-infusionsNow tell me that is not grind.
You sir have my deepest respect! Thanks for helping me clarify how grindy this game has became.
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by snow529(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.) Am I the only one who is thinking about this? With the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same. Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.
Do you mean you are now getting more gold for gems?
Yes I do. You can get much more gold than before with same amount of gems. With almost every PVE/WvW equipment in the auction house, swiping your card will be the most efficient way to get end-game equipment. Especially if you consider the reward from grinding in this game is constantly getting nerfed.
Originally posted by VannorPersonally, I think it's a combination of what you can get quicker.. how long it takes for non-payers and what they are actually doing to get it.Even if you can pay to get it (whatever it is) straight away but the time it takes to get is reasonable, considering the cost to get it quicker, and is done through the same gameplay you'll be doing even when you have it (whatever it is)... then it is not a problem.
Eh, I will just say the grind in this game is somewhere on my list of most grindy games(maybe second tier). Whether the time takes to get such item is reasonable or not, it depends on how big a no-lifer you are. I do not really mind grinding the same dungeon for 40+ times just to get my armor, but I will still complain about how designer use such a negative way to keep you hook up to the game.
Originally posted by djazzyso...what do you win?
Time? More time for family, friends, and sex I guess? I don't really know about your life man. But I weight those more than gaming, though, gaming is still a big part of my life. Swiping your card could give your more than on those stuff. It might also helps you rape that left-over enemy noob player in WvW, and maybe brag about it afterwards on how awesome your build is.
Originally posted by Vannor
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by snow529(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.) Am I the only one who is thinking about this? With the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same. Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.
Do you mean you are now getting more gold for gems?
Could someone answer this for me please? If so, I can understand OP concern.
Doesn't matter. You can get top stat level 80 weapons for a couple of silver or even a few coppers. They might look boring.. but they work just as good.
Please elaborate your method on obtaining ascended/exotic weapon with just few silver. I really would like to know because I could flip it for 10 times the price on trading post and make lots of fortune. Maybe I will even stop complaining about this issue since I have so much gold to keep me from getting affected on future farm nerf patch.
Originally posted by Swids2010I love articles likes this because it just shows the OP has never played a pay to win game. Gw2 Is not pay to win xp boosts and other boost are not pay to win. Now a example of this was say if they put a weapon in the shop that was unattainable in game and lets say this weapon is 200% better than anything you could get in game then it is pay to win.
I love reply like this because it just shows the poster does not even read the first paragraph in my post. P2W definition has changed due to the majority amount of F2P(or B2P gw2) introduce a new model that if you don't spend money, you will be spending disgusting amount of time. I do not even need to mention that it seems like you never go beyond my title. Check the gem to gold rate, compare it with any farm method available in game, then come back and blame my lack of knowledge.
I don't mind if you like to spend so much time on seemingly-P2W games like gw2. After all, it is your choice to live your life in the old definition of P2W model.
Pay To Win is when the developer lets the player pay money to achieve the win state, or when paying money makes the win state a guarantee when it otherwise isn't a guarantee.
Putting up increasingly longer barriers to achievement that can be bypassed by paying money is a coercion technique.
Unless players can pay money to achieve the win state, or make the win state a guarantee when it otherwise isn't, then GW2 isn't a P2W game. If you're trying to change the definition to mean what you want it to, then good luck, you need to convince the rest of the internet that your definition is the definition.
**
Interestingly, searching for "Pay To Win" returns "Free To Play" as the top results. In other words, you can't achieve the win state unless you pay money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You have to run fractals over and over again to obtain these and refine them. Some people will sell them for a high amount of gold and others will buy gold through gems to easily obtain the infusions.
Farming dungeons for money - such a thing has never been heard of.
And I have one question here. A new player buys gems and converts them to gold to buy... let's say 20 agony resistance and starts doing fractals. How exactly does he benefit from the resistance from level 1-9?
He still has to grind his way up to level 30+ and meanwhile a lot of infusions will drop anyway...
A very interesting point I will say. It seems like you forgot to consider the drop rate and crafting formula for the agony infusion. Also, you don't have to start at 1 if you already have enough AR. Doing fotm with a level 40 group could also help you level up your personal fotm and get your reward. Last time I checked, player is able to get higher fotm drops but not even level reward(sucks anyway).
Farming dungeons for money was true in gw2 for cof about at least 10 months. I was excessively doing it(8 hours a day) for two months, while my friend just swiped his card and got stuff instantly.
Any player can join an FotM group. You are likely to be kicked if you are taking more than 6% damage per tick of agony.
However, let's say a FotM player goes in to level 40 fractals with a PERSONAL level of 1. They will only get rewards cooresponding to their personal level. Period. So you will still need to go through all those levels.
In addition, ascended items are almost always account/soulbound, meaning you will need to work for the actual trinkets/weapons. The only item that can be infused AND outright bought is a legendary weapon...which would cost a crap ton of gems for 10AR.
This "p2w" argument reminds me of the people who said that experience boosters in GW2 would cause an imbalance in the game...it's laughable now.
There's no freaking way fractals are p2w. Period. You could spend 1000s of dollars on enough infusions for 2 +20 AR...and STILL it would not be the primary factor for success in a lvl 50 fractal. It's laughable...
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Personally I think Guild Wars 2 is dominated by pay to look good.
Now I automatically know people's responses to this. "It's only cosmetic! etc. etc."
So let me rephrase that. Guild Wars 2 is pay to not look like some one took a big dump all over your armor.
Essentially in MMOs. One of the core end game elements is to make your avatar look good. With Guild Wars 2. The only way that is achievable is through the gem shop.
So basically what it comes down to in the end.
Guild Wars 2 /IS/ Pay to Win.
Also instant credit card legendaries. I know one person on my server who has bought 5.
You're saying you know a person which spent, at least, 455 $ on a single legendary weapon, to total amount of, at least, 2278$ just for 5 weapons ??
I've calculated this by the amount of gold you can get for 100 gems at this moment (1.12.2013. at 3:09 in the morning GMT+01) which is: 5g 76s for 100 gems and the price of 800 gems is 10$ while the price of legendary weapons is 2000ish golds to 3333 golds.
Also, I have bought only an arrow quiver for my ranger from the gem shop. Everything else I've got on ranger or warrior was acquired trough game and I look awesome. So by me, GW2 is the farthest it can be from pay 2 win.
I don't get people who think that if you always get something quicker than someone else you're instantly winning. You're not, not in this game... Unless you're willing to land out 455$ just to get a shiny legendary which, most of them, don't even look good
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Originally posted by Swids2010I love articles likes this because it just shows the OP has never played a pay to win game. Gw2 Is not pay to win xp boosts and other boost are not pay to win. Now a example of this was say if they put a weapon in the shop that was unattainable in game and lets say this weapon is 200% better than anything you could get in game then it is pay to win.
I love reply like this because it just shows the poster does not even read the first paragraph in my post. P2W definition has changed due to the majority amount of F2P(or B2P gw2) introduce a new model that if you don't spend money, you will be spending disgusting amount of time. I do not even need to mention that it seems like you never go beyond my title. Check the gem to gold rate, compare it with any farm method available in game, then come back and blame my lack of knowledge.
I don't mind if you like to spend so much time on seemingly-P2W games like gw2. After all, it is your choice to live your life in the old definition of P2W model.
Pay To Win is when the developer lets the player pay money to achieve the win state, or when paying money makes the win state a guarantee when it otherwise isn't a guarantee.
Putting up increasingly longer barriers to achievement that can be bypassed by paying money is a coercion technique.
Unless players can pay money to achieve the win state, or make the win state a guarantee when it otherwise isn't, then GW2 isn't a P2W game. If you're trying to change the definition to mean what you want it to, then good luck, you need to convince the rest of the internet that your definition is the definition.
**
Interestingly, searching for "Pay To Win" returns "Free To Play" as the top results. In other words, you can't achieve the win state unless you pay money.
Widely accepted definition of P2W:
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
I think GW2 fits this description with gem to gold legendary sales alone.
Though the armors are my opinion. It still shambles the progression of the game and urges you to be reliant on the gem store.
Meaning to do good at the game and progress. You either need that credit card or you need to take it to the extreme by neglecting your social life the most and have the lowest employment rate to be on par with gem store users by farming gold yourself. As Mr. tom_gore kindly puts it.
Originally posted by tom_gore Originally posted by AzureProwerOriginally posted by tom_goreMy definition of pay to win is that if you pay anything ever to play games, you are a loser and should be banned, because god forbid if the company making the game would actually make some money out of it....Yeah... no.
If a company wants to make money and promote a healthy player base. Subscription model is the way.Rather than who can pump more real life cash into the game company's pockets to get an edge.So a healthy player base means whoever can neglect their social life the most and have the lowest employment rate has the edge. Gotcha.
Originally posted by AzureProwerPersonally I think Guild Wars 2 is dominated by pay to look good.Now I automatically know people's responses to this. "It's only cosmetic! etc. etc."So let me rephrase that. Guild Wars 2 is pay to not look like some one took a big dump all over your armor.Essentially in MMOs. One of the core end game elements is to make your avatar look good. With Guild Wars 2. The only way that is achievable is through the gem shop.So basically what it comes down to in the end.Guild Wars 2 /IS/ Pay to Win.Also instant credit card legendaries. I know one person on my server who has bought 5.
You're saying you know a person which spent, at least, 455 $ on a single legendary weapon, to total amount of, at least, 2278$ just for 5 weapons ??
I've calculated this by the amount of gold you can get for 100 gems at this moment (1.12.2013. at 3:09 in the morning GMT+01) which is: 5g 76s for 100 gems and the price of 800 gems is 10$ while the price of legendary weapons is 2000ish golds to 3333 golds.
Also, I have bought only an arrow quiver for my ranger from the gem shop. Everything else I've got on ranger or warrior was acquired trough game and I look awesome. So by me, GW2 is the farthest it can be from pay 2 win.
I don't get people who think that if you always get something quicker than someone else you're instantly winning. You're not, not in this game... Unless you're willing to land out 455$ just to get a shiny legendary which, most of them, don't even look good
Yes. That person on my server indeed did do that.
Also if you don't like the looks of the legendary. As people have said before with the armors. It's subjective and your opinion.
How ever. Legendaries are still the best in slot weapon with interchangeable stats. That is not equal to ascended. It's like have 10+ ascended weapons on hand at any time. That's how powerful legendaries are.
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You are completely correct. You're reading your own condition into it and, as a result, reading what isn't there. I did not say it only has to do money or that I supported such a stance even if it only was that. Amazing. I listed quite a few of the possible things one can be limited by, to expressly avoid even the most obtuse of our readers from getting confused.
I failed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Same here. I don't really care how others got their stuff... unless there's a cool story to it.
I got some kind of popgun skin in a GW2 event. I don't know how many others have it or how else it can be obtained. I just really like mine and that's all that counts. On the flip side, there are plenty of people with gear that I found really cool. How they got it doesn't change the fact that I think it looks cool.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nope, I haven't. I didn't like the game myself. The game felt cluttered with quests/hearts or whatever you want to call them and the classes felt bland and I didn't really like any I tried. I wanted to like it. I also am not a big fan of their cash shop, so that doesn't help either. I was hoping for some good old DAoC feel in WvW, but I just couldn't get past what I disliked. I own it, so I can always try it again later though if I decide.
I am not a big fan of a cash shop that has anything but cosmetic for the most part....Their may be some exceptions, but I am not a fan of buying an advantage...I do not have time to 'compete' with those with no job/school either (as I have a job/wife/house etc...), but I would prefer they earn things with time, rather than a credit card. The mmo was b2p, but the cash shop is as bad or worse than a lot of f2p mmos....I thought the b2p was going to help towards them not needing to make the cash shop as reaching as it is.
It is my opinion...A lot do not agree.
It's because the definition of p2w has been somewhat distorted to only include pvp content.
P2w is anything that allows you to bypass a particular game mechanic, for example...Going to a cash shop to buy "gems" that increase your rate of enchanting an item that you could not otherwise get in game( and no the auction house doesn't count because some one had to drop money on it.) and not only limited to pvp, but also pve.
He's actually making a good point, in that the game has (maybe not by design) turned into one where the two options for a new player are
1. grind for a very long time for the gold needed to get the end-game gear. the time needed to grind for gold in this fashion appears to be rising due to gem/gold exchange rates.
2. just pay for the gear and skip the grinding.
A lot of games do that, and are accurately labeled as P2W.
You make me like charity
There's some definite distortion there, but not where you seem to think it is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Anytime you see the term "pay to win" just pretend it says "pay to succeed" which is the intention of the phrase. Or just assume that the act of "winning" isn't limited to doing so against other players, but also applies to the various parts of the game itself.
You make me like charity
Thank you..you phrased it better than I ever could. ^^
If you think that agony resistance infusions is the primary factor in determining success in fractals, you should play some fractals.
It's just a gear check...
And when ascended armor comes out, these infusions will mean even less...
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
I'm thinking that if Gw 2 had anything to do at level 80 beyond farm a legendary and if said legendary weren't basically available via Gem Store, none of you would even be having this discussion.
But hey I guess when you're "doing the things you loved while leveling!".....
This is what you get. Lol.
"Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune
all agony resistance does is allow you to participate, it's a gating mechanism (like infused gear in GW1). It doesn't suddenly make you a better player that allows you to beat any of the fractals, that is up to the player.
I can't believe this discussion is even continuing, all everybody seems to be doing is going around in circles.
It was RELEASED P2W really if you consider buying gold as a valuable resource, which GW2 having less emphasis on gear through dungeon MADE IT MORE SO. B2P with a cash shop giving advantages always bothered. I get its no sub, but your charging for a box price AND expecting a cash shop thats practically similiar to a F2P game, just SLIGHTLY better. Hell, games like Aion or Tera have a cash shop pretty much on par with GW2 without a box price.
Don't get me wrong, if I actually thought the game was good its a cash shop I could at least 'stomach' and its far from the worst, but its still "P2W" in terms of being able to buy an advantage that only long grinding can achieve.
Well op...
This is a two way street,they are most certainly trying to mislead users just as all other cash shop games do.The flip side is that MANY ,i would say a very large number only jumped in because it did not carry a sub fee.So both parties are guilty,i am not the hypocrite,i denounce lame gimmicks as calling games free to play when they most certainly are not and i do not support them at all.
point being if you are going to support such gimmicks you are guilty as well,if you support it,that means you want it that way.
IMO it is even more lame to rely on ripping more money out of others to make up for those who spend less.If anyone ever spends more than 15 dollars a month on a game,they should give their heads a shake.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
P2W crowd in this thread is living in fantasy buble. Every mmo I have played had HUGE shadow economy and i knew that even without existence of cash shop a lot of ppl were buying huge amount of gold from gold sellers, paying for lvling, hell I even knew ppl who were buying PvP titles in vannila wow ... They all payed for things with real money and ofc it was officialy illegal. But the fact that it was illegal, didnt made P2W in almost every mainstream MMO imposible. And it was everywhere - buying gold from gold sellers to get money for flasks for raiding is P2W at its best.
Whats the difference to GW2 ? It is that you can basicly buy gold legally (via gems)
Except that I need the protection of the actual armor, I would be running around with out it. I think the chars look good with out it so how can it be pay to look good!
Also getting to max level in around 60 - 70 hours (less than 2 weeks) with out buying cash shop items is not pay to win it is as one other reply stated, pay to be bored, because of lack of things to do. Crafting sucks for lack of ancient timber, dungeons are boring especially after you no longer need tokens, pvp is pointless (kill or be killed) as is wvw. In wvw, you run around knocking down walls so you can take over a building so that minutes after you leave it can be taken back by the other side!
Other than being wrong in his p2w=p2s (?), it's probably because we're brought up thinking censorship is right and makes things better for everyone. That same thinking goes into games and people who can't have fun if someone else isn't playing it right.
p2w is buying an advantage you can't earn in game. It's not if it cost money and isn't 100% cosmetic it's p2w.
I love reply like this because it just shows the poster does not even read the first paragraph in my post. P2W definition has changed due to the majority amount of F2P(or B2P gw2) introduce a new model that if you don't spend money, you will be spending disgusting amount of time. I do not even need to mention that it seems like you never go beyond my title. Check the gem to gold rate, compare it with any farm method available in game, then come back and blame my lack of knowledge.
I don't mind if you like to spend so much time on seemingly-P2W games like gw2. After all, it is your choice to live your life in the old definition of P2W model.
Another one who lives in the history.
I spent 8 months leveling and gearing 6 toons of different professions. Now all of them has at least two sets of exotic equipments and all ascended trinkets. I do not know about your understanding on "rush", but I believe I should not be one of those people. After continuously gold-farming cof for at least two month, I realize the indirect P2W aspect in the game, namely instant best equipments with gems. Same model as Rift but sneaky anet managed to make people, at least you, to think this game is not P2W.
Like I said, if you find living in the past enjoyable, I have nothing to say about it.
so pay to win definition is changing to suit your argument? moving the goal posts to make sure you score a goal?
what if your definition doesn't fit my definition
You sir have my deepest respect! Thanks for helping me clarify how grindy this game has became.
Yes I do. You can get much more gold than before with same amount of gems. With almost every PVE/WvW equipment in the auction house, swiping your card will be the most efficient way to get end-game equipment. Especially if you consider the reward from grinding in this game is constantly getting nerfed.
Eh, I will just say the grind in this game is somewhere on my list of most grindy games(maybe second tier). Whether the time takes to get such item is reasonable or not, it depends on how big a no-lifer you are. I do not really mind grinding the same dungeon for 40+ times just to get my armor, but I will still complain about how designer use such a negative way to keep you hook up to the game.
Time? More time for family, friends, and sex I guess? I don't really know about your life man. But I weight those more than gaming, though, gaming is still a big part of my life. Swiping your card could give your more than on those stuff. It might also helps you rape that left-over enemy noob player in WvW, and maybe brag about it afterwards on how awesome your build is.
Please elaborate your method on obtaining ascended/exotic weapon with just few silver. I really would like to know because I could flip it for 10 times the price on trading post and make lots of fortune. Maybe I will even stop complaining about this issue since I have so much gold to keep me from getting affected on future farm nerf patch.
Pay To Win is when the developer lets the player pay money to achieve the win state, or when paying money makes the win state a guarantee when it otherwise isn't a guarantee.
Putting up increasingly longer barriers to achievement that can be bypassed by paying money is a coercion technique.
Unless players can pay money to achieve the win state, or make the win state a guarantee when it otherwise isn't, then GW2 isn't a P2W game. If you're trying to change the definition to mean what you want it to, then good luck, you need to convince the rest of the internet that your definition is the definition.
**
Interestingly, searching for "Pay To Win" returns "Free To Play" as the top results. In other words, you can't achieve the win state unless you pay money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Any player can join an FotM group. You are likely to be kicked if you are taking more than 6% damage per tick of agony.
However, let's say a FotM player goes in to level 40 fractals with a PERSONAL level of 1. They will only get rewards cooresponding to their personal level. Period. So you will still need to go through all those levels.
In addition, ascended items are almost always account/soulbound, meaning you will need to work for the actual trinkets/weapons. The only item that can be infused AND outright bought is a legendary weapon...which would cost a crap ton of gems for 10AR.
This "p2w" argument reminds me of the people who said that experience boosters in GW2 would cause an imbalance in the game...it's laughable now.
There's no freaking way fractals are p2w. Period. You could spend 1000s of dollars on enough infusions for 2 +20 AR...and STILL it would not be the primary factor for success in a lvl 50 fractal. It's laughable...
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
You're saying you know a person which spent, at least, 455 $ on a single legendary weapon, to total amount of, at least, 2278$ just for 5 weapons ??
I've calculated this by the amount of gold you can get for 100 gems at this moment (1.12.2013. at 3:09 in the morning GMT+01) which is: 5g 76s for 100 gems and the price of 800 gems is 10$ while the price of legendary weapons is 2000ish golds to 3333 golds.
Also, I have bought only an arrow quiver for my ranger from the gem shop. Everything else I've got on ranger or warrior was acquired trough game and I look awesome. So by me, GW2 is the farthest it can be from pay 2 win.
I don't get people who think that if you always get something quicker than someone else you're instantly winning. You're not, not in this game... Unless you're willing to land out 455$ just to get a shiny legendary which, most of them, don't even look good
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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Widely accepted definition of P2W:
1. pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
I think GW2 fits this description with gem to gold legendary sales alone.
Though the armors are my opinion. It still shambles the progression of the game and urges you to be reliant on the gem store.
Meaning to do good at the game and progress. You either need that credit card or you need to take it to the extreme by neglecting your social life the most and have the lowest employment rate to be on par with gem store users by farming gold yourself. As Mr. tom_gore kindly puts it.
If a company wants to make money and promote a healthy player base. Subscription model is the way. Rather than who can pump more real life cash into the game company's pockets to get an edge.So a healthy player base means whoever can neglect their social life the most and have the lowest employment rate has the edge. Gotcha.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
Yes. That person on my server indeed did do that.
Also if you don't like the looks of the legendary. As people have said before with the armors. It's subjective and your opinion.
How ever. Legendaries are still the best in slot weapon with interchangeable stats. That is not equal to ascended. It's like have 10+ ascended weapons on hand at any time. That's how powerful legendaries are.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower