When I playedMMOs you used to pay your 15bucks and forget about the real world, money, credit cards, gems/gold conversion rates, convinience, the value of my gaming time in comparison to how much I earn so I can calculate is it better to buy or play for that sword.
All this now sounds like a freaking business. MMOs are crap now!
All the smart people a few years ago said cash shops will ruin the genre and they were right...
(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.)
Am I the only one who is thinking about this? For instance, with the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. There are also many other ways to spend you real money in gw2 to gain a time lead. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same.
Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.
Edit: Highlight the part of changing definition on P2W to improve the understanding of my original intention.
Edit 2: Reword the part for AR to make it more clear. Now it should not makes reader thinks that pay to get AR is the main point of my argument.
You still have no concept of what "P2" (i.e. Pay-2-Win) means. I care not the other posts in this thread, or your own personal definition; I only care to point out what it means and how GW2 is NOT P2W.
Pay-2-Win:The ability to pay for items -armor and/or weapons- that are stronger than those within the game that allow you to "beat" everyone else in the game who hasn't purchased said items. The items are either equal to top-tier items within the game, or they're significantly better than them. The model of "P2W" is in relation to PvP (Player-vs-Player) and low relation to PvE (Player-vs-Environment), as the former is competitive to win and the latter is personal content objectives with no real competition.
First, and arguably the easiest, way to debunk the "GW2 is P2W" is to state that weapons and armor sets are not purchasable through the game's store. Armor skins, weapon skins, gathering tools, toys, costumes, fireworks, mini pets, dyes, and boosts are all that are sold within the that store.
Boosts are the only thing that directly effects character progression, but they're dependent on the player's ability to effectively play the game. Take for example how a player with a 50% WXP boost gets 20 kills in the 1hr lasting, while a different, more skilled player gets 40 kills in the same hour; at a rate of 20 WXP per kill, the boosted player got 400+200=600 WXP, where as the unboosted skilled player got 800 WXP.
WXP Boosts and XP boosts barely, if at all, give any time advantage over another player unless both are equally skilled. However, many players get several of those boosts free either every couple of weeks to every month, thanks to obtaining just within game play. Glory (sPvP) boosts matter far less, thanks to an extremely competitive state of sPvP as well as the common obtainment for them (I've got a stack of nearly 200 in my sPvP bank).
Another thing to consider is that no matter how much WXP or XP a player has, they cannot top another player who has more skill with Active Dodge and ability targeting/placement. Also, the boosts don't give a player the gold or other materials needed to get top-tier Exotic and Ascended gear. Though in reality it'll take less than a week to deck out in full Exotics once level 80; Ascended takes a bit longer due to time-gates and would be just over 1.5 months to get all the pieces available.
As for "PW2", the best -or should I say 'worse'- examples of it would be Lord of the Ring Online's Legendary Slots Upgrades and Rift's store that allows direct purchase of top-tier gear. Korean MMORPG's are worse off with their PW2 status, but that's not an issue for the west.
GW2 is not P2W unless your definition of the term makes basically any game with a cash shop P2W.
That is the basic design philosophy of the microctansaction model. By adding the cash shop the game automatically becomes P2W. The only debatable part of GW2's P2W model is how unfair it treats players that do not spend IRL money on the cash shop.
GW2 is not P2W unless your definition of the term makes basically any game with a cash shop P2W.
That is the basic design philosophy of the microctansaction model. By adding the cash shop the game automatically becomes P2W. The only debatable part of GW2's P2W model is how unfair it treats players that do not spend IRL money on the cash shop.
How unfair? After Meowhead posted this thread should have been over with. I'm never surprised when i come to this section of mmorpg. The amount of nonsense that gets posted here sometimes....is just ..
Originally posted by snow529"In fact, somebody simply spending money (Assuming this person has an infinite amount of money to buy gems with, so therefore uses that as their method of gearing up) to gear up vs. somebody playing the game 3-4 hours a day (average. More on weekends, less on weekdays) for a month to get gear... would actually be underpowered. The person who played the game 3-4 hours a day for a month would =have better equipment than Mr. Infinite Money Bags=." It sounds wrong to me at least. Last time I checked trading post, all major stat sets are available. By saying saving time, it includes skip the normal dungeon and directly go grind fotm for ascended trinkets. Don't worry about math, it was actually my major. That is exactly why I chose not to discuss the issue math-wise. There are just too many parameters to consider gw2's p2w thoroughly--I can not just simplify it down into numbers.
I broke down the math on legendaries and their 'amazing stat boost'. The parameters are easy, and it's important to point out the truth of things, because a lot of people seemed confused as to just how amazing buying legendaries is. I could also break down the math on agony resistance and paying cash for it if you'd like. Don't worry, I'd be happy to help you calculate all this stuff, since there's 'too many parameters'. You have to definitely play the game to get any of the ascended gear, with the exception of legendaries.You have to hit level 80. You need to do dailies. You need to run fractals. These are things you MUST do to get ascended gear. Unless you're literally spending THOUSANDS of dollars to buy legendaries (Not an exaggeration), you also need to be playing the game to craft ascended weapons.You need laurels, commendations, fractal relics, ascended crafting materials... all of these require playing the game in various ways. Therefor somebody relying purely on money will be beat by somebody relying purely on time. By an incredible margin, as well.It is true that spending large quantities of money allows you to save some time, but GW2 requires significantly less gameplay to reach top tier equipment than most subscription MMOs require. If the game was being driven purely by an attempt to force people to spend money, then the grind would handily surpass subscription MMOs, rather than being less.If you want to argue that it's relatively easy (for an MMO, not a single player game) to get max gear in GW2, but that with the addition of money one can speed it up even more (While skipping gameplay, which I think is silly anyways, but that's besides the point), then I will agree that is true.You still need to play the game though, even with spending money. You can only speed up the process, not skip it.I won't agree that's pay to win though. You can use that as your definition, but it's not mine. I will agree it's pay to win by your definition which I disagree with, how about that?Also you keep talking about how hard it is to earn gold in GW2. What is your significant problem? With dungeons and fractals paying out gold, champion farms, world bosses, there's so very many avenues to get gold. The reason why the gem-> gold rates are so good is because everybody is so flush with gold and using that gold to buy gems, raising the rates. It's not uncommon to have hundreds of gold on hand. I've never done gem -> gold, and never play the market, and I got to the point where after my legendary I started spending my money in really stupid ways like collecting minis when I can't even use them all. Would you like some helpful pointers on how to play the game? I'd be happy to help you be better.
About math, have you calculated time needed? As I said, there is a reason why I don't use math: such math calculation is very different from real world--you can get indefinitely close to the real world, but you can never get the exact solution.
About doing dungeons, fotm, dailies and etc for ascended gear, let's say two people hit 80 at the same time, will the person spend cash have a significant time lead?
About "requires significantly less gameplay to reach top tier equipment than most subscription MMOs", you realize gw2 is not sub-based right? Then why draw parallel between two different models?
About how grindy and how hard to earn gold, I agree it is not as grindy as some f2p out there, but have you notice gw2 has constant farm nerf in almost everything big patch?
"You can only speed up the process, not skip it." That was exactly my point sir, thank you for pointing it out.
About gem conversion rate, since you are such a master in math, would you mind consider a action that anet could use to manipulate to increase the demand of gem? Would you mind also prove that the manipulation from anet could not be seen by players?
"I won't agree that's pay to win though. You can use that as your definition, but it's not mine. I will agree it's pay to win by your definition which I disagree with, how about that?" Exactly, why bother reply at first? You know that is hard to win on enemy ground right?
Originally posted by CowboyHatAccording to OP any game with a cash shop is P2W. I'm not sure Op has experienced a true P2W game.
Close, but not all. Check posts above.
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by snow529I don't know man. The barrier for farm is already high in gw2. Without your definition of the reasonable height for a barrier, I could not really convince you whether gw2 is p2w or not.
Quoted text edited because the MMORPG.com editor sometimes can't keep up. Why would convincing me matter? The game either is or it isn't a P2W game. Given what's generally accepted as the meaning of P2W (outside of this thread), it doesn't look like GW2 fits. Until or unless the meaning of P2W changes that is. Are players denied success because they do not pay money? Is the game unbalanced such that money and not skill must be used to compensate? It's not enough for someone to think the grind is too hard, it must be that the grind is so hard that the only way around it is to use money. It's possible for GW2 to fall under "P2W" with subjective judgments though. If the majority of players cannot achieve success without resorting to the cash shop or if the majority of players cannot overcome a disadvantage with skill and must resort to the cash shop, then the game could be considered "P2W". It does not look like this is the case though. It doesn't even seem like a likely case. In F2P games, the majority of players do not pay anything. GW2 is a B2P game, but after the initial purchase the game is F2P in behavior. There's no reason to think that the cash shop behavior differs from a standard F2P game. If the majority of players are not paying money in the cash shop, but continue to play the game, then they are achieving the "win" state at some point.
/sigh... You like to play with definition, then I will play definition with you too...
Define "generally accepted". I saw you used a source from wikipedia, it that correct? It is not a scholarly source, thus it is not reliable. I needed your thought on the critical height for a bump to become a barrier so that I can use my knowledge of how grindy gw2 to help you understand my point.
There are actually two way around: quit the game, or use money. Not precisely the one way you described. Define "success". Like I said, both free player and cash player can achieve the same, but it requires a free player much more time(to do repetitive activities). I don't know what's your definition of "success" in an mmo, but I see people running around with green gears shouting "I do big dmg, I can keep myself alive, and I am not useless" all day. They seem to enjoy the game without grinding for best gears. Although when they actually start doing PvE and WvW, they will notice that people who wasted time, or moeny, or both, has a unavoidable advantage.
You point is valid if we used the historical definition of P2W. Companies now develop a more subtle way to make player think a system is fair but it is actually just an extension of your "generally accepted" p2w model.
"In F2P games, the majority of players do not pay anything. GW2 is a B2P game, but after the initial purchase the game is F2P in behavior." I do not understand how you concluded that in to gw2 should be treated same as any other f2p out there--it is not f2p, which was acknowledged by you. F2p is different from gw2--although they are both mmos, without agreeing with the marked value on gw2, one would always choose f2p games, or even do not choose any at all.
To make this clear under current state of game: We have two players,both started playing gw2 at this moment. Both of them plays exactly 4 hours a day, both have the same play style, both only plays one toon, and only one of them is willing to pay cash. Cash player will have a huge lead on progress for the first month. After the first month, the gap between them gradually decreases. Indefinitely long time has passed, what you can observe is that two players' progressions are indefinitely close, but the gap still exist. If you find this is hard for you to understand, ask the math guy above about the mathematical idea of "infinity plus one".
Originally posted by RizelStarSimply put, it's not p2w, but what ever helps everyone sleep better at night.
As you can see, there are 14 pages of discussion right now. I am sure you can find something insightful in them.
Originally posted by PalaWhen I playedMMOs you used to pay your 15bucks and forget about the real world, money, credit cards, gems/gold conversion rates, convinience, the value of my gaming time in comparison to how much I earn so I can calculate is it better to buy or play for that sword.All this now sounds like a freaking business. MMOs are crap now!All the smart people a few years ago said cash shops will ruin the genre and they were right...
The whole point of mmorpg is to create an immersive world which let you forget about real life(for a little while) and enjoy the new you. I am afraid those prophecies are right--devs focus more on how to make cash shop as a whole more attractive and paying less attention to actual game contents.
Originally posted by Siphaed
Originally posted by snow529 (Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.) Am I the only one who is thinking about this? For instance, with the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. There are also many other ways to spend you real money in gw2 to gain a time lead. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same.Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.Edit: Highlight the part of changing definition on P2W to improve the understanding of my original intention.Edit 2: Reword the part for AR to make it more clear. Now it should not makes reader thinks that pay to get AR is the main point of my argument.
You still have no concept of what "P2" (i.e. Pay-2-Win) means. I care not the other posts in this thread, or your own personal definition; I only care to point out what it means and how GW2 is NOT P2W. Pay-2-Win: The ability to pay for items -armor and/or weapons- that are stronger than those within the game that allow you to "beat" everyone else in the game who hasn't purchased said items. The items are either equal to top-tier items within the game, or they're significantly better than them. The model of "P2W" is in relation to PvP (Player-vs-Player) and low relation to PvE (Player-vs-Environment), as the former is competitive to win and the latter is personal content objectives with no real competition. First, and arguably the easiest, way to debunk the "GW2 is P2W" is to state that weapons and armor sets are not purchasable through the game's store. Armor skins, weapon skins, gathering tools, toys, costumes, fireworks, mini pets, dyes, and boosts are all that are sold within the that store. Boosts are the only thing that directly effects character progression, but they're dependent on the player's ability to effectively play the game. Take for example how a player with a 50% WXP boost gets 20 kills in the 1hr lasting, while a different, more skilled player gets 40 kills in the same hour; at a rate of 20 WXP per kill, the boosted player got 400+200=600 WXP, where as the unboosted skilled player got 800 WXP. WXP Boosts and XP boosts barely, if at all, give any time advantage over another player unless both are equally skilled. However, many players get several of those boosts free either every couple of weeks to every month, thanks to obtaining just within game play. Glory (sPvP) boosts matter far less, thanks to an extremely competitive state of sPvP as well as the common obtainment for them (I've got a stack of nearly 200 in my sPvP bank).Another thing to consider is that no matter how much WXP or XP a player has, they cannot top another player who has more skill with Active Dodge and ability targeting/placement. Also, the boosts don't give a player the gold or other materials needed to get top-tier Exotic and Ascended gear. Though in reality it'll take less than a week to deck out in full Exotics once level 80; Ascended takes a bit longer due to time-gates and would be just over 1.5 months to get all the pieces available.As for "PW2", the best -or should I say 'worse'- examples of it would be Lord of the Ring Online's Legendary Slots Upgrades and Rift's store that allows direct purchase of top-tier gear. Korean MMORPG's are worse off with their PW2 status, but that's not an issue for the west.
OMG I have to explain again... The p2w process in gw2: swipe card=>get gems=>convert to gold=>open trading post=>buy any exotic armor/trinket you want=>save grinding time.
I would rather not talk about booster for easy discussion. Attack power and toughness buff booster exists in game and that for sure is P2W. I choose this more controversial idea of p2w, instead of p2w booster, is because it is time for us to re-define p2w games. If possible, player could force games like gw2 to remove cash shop, buff farm reward, and produce more engaging contents.
GW2 is not P2W unless your definition of the term makes basically any game with a cash shop P2W.
That is the basic design philosophy of the microctansaction model. By adding the cash shop the game automatically becomes P2W. The only debatable part of GW2's P2W model is how unfair it treats players that do not spend IRL money on the cash shop.
How unfair? After Meowhead posted this thread should have been over with. I'm never surprised when i come to this section of mmorpg. The amount of nonsense that gets posted here sometimes....is just ..
People never care about numbers or facts. They read something they don't like and it's all.....
About math, have you calculated time needed? As I said, there is a reason why I don't use math: such math calculation is very different from real world--you can get indefinitely close to the real world, but you can never get the exact solution.
About doing dungeons, fotm, dailies and etc for ascended gear, let's say two people hit 80 at the same time, will the person spend cash have a significant time lead?
About "requires significantly less gameplay to reach top tier equipment than most subscription MMOs", you realize gw2 is not sub-based right? Then why draw parallel between two different models?
About how grindy and how hard to earn gold, I agree it is not as grindy as some f2p out there, but have you notice gw2 has constant farm nerf in almost everything big patch?
"You can only speed up the process, not skip it." That was exactly my point sir, thank you for pointing it out.
About gem conversion rate, since you are such a master in math, would you mind consider a action that anet could use to manipulate to increase the demand of gem? Would you mind also prove that the manipulation from anet could not be seen by players?
"I won't agree that's pay to win though. You can use that as your definition, but it's not mine. I will agree it's pay to win by your definition which I disagree with, how about that?" Exactly, why bother reply at first? You know that is hard to win on enemy ground right?
Yes, I did calculate time needed for ascended. Many parts of ascended gearing cannot actually be sped up through spending money. Spending money does not earn you more laurels, more pristine fractal relics, or more guild commendations. These are time gated, so it's really easy to calculate the time. The time to earn a legendary is difficult to calculate, but as I already proved, the difference in power between a legendary wielding person and an exotic wielding person is less than .5% (Assuming NEITHER player is using traits or food. Traits or food would make the difference even smaller). I calculated the easy part (The amount of power gained) and the silly part (The amount of money you need to spend for the power gained).
I did agree that you can spend cash to get a time lead. I wouldn't say significant though, unless you're willing to outlay significant amounts of money.
Why did I draw a parallel between GW2 and the grind required in a sub based game? Because people are making the contention that the cash shop in GW2 is driving the game to have an increased grind. So, you compare GW2 to other games (In this case subscription games) to see if the statement is true. Which it isn't. Really, you keep on asking questions that confuse me, because it shows that you aren't understanding WHY I bring up points.
Is it clear now? I am specifically countering people saying 'The GW2 cash shop drives a content creation model that has increased grind, to force you into the cash shop', by comparing it to subscription MMOs. I don't know how much simpler I can possibly make this. I noticed you had this problem with my original post too where I would say things that specifically counters other people's statements, and you had no idea why I said them.
Also, Arenanet only nerfs the really obviously broken farm stuff, there are lots of ways to make lots of money, as evidenced by all the rich people running around who don't spend cash. :P Nerfing one method of earning money doesn't equal there being no way to make money.
And it's true, there's no way to tell whether or not Arenanet is manipulating gem prices, but why would they want to manipulate prices so you get =more gold per gem=? If, as you contend, buying gold is the optimal way to level in this game, then Arenanet giving you more gold per gem would actually be counter to their interests. You really didn't think that through at all, did you? Look at that. Think about it. Your two statements are 'buying gold is the best way to improve in the game' and 'Arenanet could be manipulating the gem to gold market'. Then you look and see that gems get you MORE gold, and you realize that they're making themselves... get... less money under your argument? I dunno. Seems silly to me.
And why bother to reply? Because it's easy to shoot down all of your other arguments except for the one that starts with 'I'm going to take something and redefine it then claim it's that word that I redefined using my new definition'. I can't really shoot that down, I can just stare at you in mild disbelief. But I'm still going to call you out on how that is poor practice.
Originally posted by AzureProwerPersonally I think Guild Wars 2 is dominated by pay to look good.Now I automatically know people's responses to this. "It's only cosmetic! etc. etc."So let me rephrase that. Guild Wars 2 is pay to not look like some one took a big dump all over your armor.Essentially in MMOs. One of the core end game elements is to make your avatar look good. With Guild Wars 2. The only way that is achievable is through the gem shop.So basically what it comes down to in the end.Guild Wars 2 /IS/ Pay to Win.Also instant credit card legendaries. I know one person on my server who has bought 5
1. So you mean that "new_skin_from_shop" = WIN in the game? OK, may be few ppl thinking as you. Will not argue.
2. I like to see that somebody purchased something in a shop. Why not. Here is NO monthly fee. But developers must earn money to create new stuff. Sometimes I also donate to support Anet if I like the content.
3. Many ppl also never use the shop, because it useles. It will not help to win in PvP or to obtain top place of your server in WWW. You can not even make jumping puzzle or beat Tequatl using cash shop :-) So it's not P2Win game at all.
2. I really dislike "there is no monthly fees" as a free pass to gouge the players. The amount the store nickles and dimes you is by far more than what ever a subscription would be. If you chose to not spend money on the store out of principle like I do. You are at a disadvantage.
Lol, I have 5 lvl 80 and one lvl 46 and I also have 4 legendaries on my chars I have never bought anything in the cash shop for real money, I used 800gems to unlock a sixth character slot and I did that with my own gold ingame. So tell me how It would be cheaper for me to play a game like world of warcraft with a sub for 15 months?
Originally posted by snow529About math, have you calculated time needed? As I said, there is a reason why I don't use math: such math calculation is very different from real world--you can get indefinitely close to the real world, but you can never get the exact solution.About doing dungeons, fotm, dailies and etc for ascended gear, let's say two people hit 80 at the same time, will the person spend cash have a significant time lead?About "requires significantly less gameplay to reach top tier equipment than most subscription MMOs", you realize gw2 is not sub-based right? Then why draw parallel between two different models?About how grindy and how hard to earn gold, I agree it is not as grindy as some f2p out there, but have you notice gw2 has constant farm nerf in almost everything big patch?"You can only speed up the process, not skip it." That was exactly my point sir, thank you for pointing it out.About gem conversion rate, since you are such a master in math, would you mind consider a action that anet could use to manipulate to increase the demand of gem? Would you mind also prove that the manipulation from anet could not be seen by players?"I won't agree that's pay to win though. You can use that as your definition, but it's not mine. I will agree it's pay to win by your definition which I disagree with, how about that?" Exactly, why bother reply at first? You know that is hard to win on enemy ground right?
Yes, I did calculate time needed for ascended. Many parts of ascended gearing cannot actually be sped up through spending money. Spending money does not earn you more laurels, more pristine fractal relics, or more guild commendations. These are time gated, so it's really easy to calculate the time. The time to earn a legendary is difficult to calculate, but as I already proved, the difference in power between a legendary wielding person and an exotic wielding person is less than .5% (Assuming NEITHER player is using traits or food. Traits or food would make the difference even smaller). I calculated the easy part (The amount of power gained) and the silly part (The amount of money you need to spend for the power gained).I did agree that you can spend cash to get a time lead. I wouldn't say significant though, unless you're willing to outlay significant amounts of money. Why did I draw a parallel between GW2 and the grind required in a sub based game? Because people are making the contention that the cash shop in GW2 is driving the game to have an increased grind. So, you compare GW2 to other games (In this case subscription games) to see if the statement is true. Which it isn't. Really, you keep on asking questions that confuse me, because it shows that you aren't understanding WHY I bring up points.Is it clear now? I am specifically countering people saying 'The GW2 cash shop drives a content creation model that has increased grind, to force you into the cash shop', by comparing it to subscription MMOs. I don't know how much simpler I can possibly make this. I noticed you had this problem with my original post too where I would say things that specifically counters other people's statements, and you had no idea why I said them.Also, Arenanet only nerfs the really obviously broken farm stuff, there are lots of ways to make lots of money, as evidenced by all the rich people running around who don't spend cash. :P Nerfing one method of earning money doesn't equal there being no way to make money.And it's true, there's no way to tell whether or not Arenanet is manipulating gem prices, but why would they want to manipulate prices so you get =more gold per gem=? If, as you contend, buying gold is the optimal way to level in this game, then Arenanet giving you more gold per gem would actually be counter to their interests. You really didn't think that through at all, did you? Look at that. Think about it. Your two statements are 'buying gold is the best way to improve in the game' and 'Arenanet could be manipulating the gem to gold market'. Then you look and see that gems get you MORE gold, and you realize that they're making themselves... get... less money under your argument? I dunno. Seems silly to me.And why bother to reply? Because it's easy to shoot down all of your other arguments except for the one that starts with 'I'm going to take something and redefine it then claim it's that word that I redefined using my new definition'. I can't really shoot that down, I can just stare at you in mild disbelief. But I'm still going to call you out on how that is poor practice.
Thank you for doing the same poor practice to me, even in your very first post.
It seems like you said "I did agree that you can spend cash to get a time lead", which is exactly my point.
"Yes, I did calculate time needed for ascended", why even bother when you can directly buy legendary with cash?
"So, you compare GW2 to other games (In this case subscription games) to see if the statement is true." I didn't do the original comparison, the credit should goes to you.
"Arenanet only nerfs the really obviously broken farm stuff" think about why this happen. In addition, have you ever heard of heavy mold bag stealth nerf?
"but why would they want to manipulate prices so you get =more gold per gem=", this is exactly how they should manipulate to make more people pay real money. Money spent on leveling is small compares to the money spend on legendary or other "luxuries". With high conversion rate, player will see that spending money could greatly save time needed for grinding. Economy is not my major so I will not go deeper on what I do not know.
I actually understand the reason behind this somewhat offensive discussion between you and me--our basic ideas on time-reward balance are different. I feel the same way, you points are easy to shoot down with my value, and that is exactly the reason I ask you "why bother to reply". I realize this discussion cannot progression without understanding how each other values this world. I guess I will acknowledge your superiority over me and move on. Like this guy said:
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by ESSKA
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by Ender4GW2 is not P2W unless your definition of the term makes basically any game with a cash shop P2W.
That is the basic design philosophy of the microctansaction model. By adding the cash shop the game automatically becomes P2W. The only debatable part of GW2's P2W model is how unfair it treats players that do not spend IRL money on the cash shop.
How unfair? After Meowhead posted this thread should have been over with. I'm never surprised when i come to this section of mmorpg. The amount of nonsense that gets posted here sometimes....is just ..
People never care about numbers or facts. They read something they don't like and it's all.....
Originally posted by Beelzebobbie
Originally posted by AzurePrower
Originally posted by StarS0ft
Originally posted by AzureProwerPersonally I think Guild Wars 2 is dominated by pay to look good.Now I automatically know people's responses to this. "It's only cosmetic! etc. etc."So let me rephrase that. Guild Wars 2 is pay to not look like some one took a big dump all over your armor.Essentially in MMOs. One of the core end game elements is to make your avatar look good. With Guild Wars 2. The only way that is achievable is through the gem shop.So basically what it comes down to in the end.Guild Wars 2 /IS/ Pay to Win.Also instant credit card legendaries. I know one person on my server who has bought 5
1. So you mean that "new_skin_from_shop" = WIN in the game? OK, may be few ppl thinking as you. Will not argue.2. I like to see that somebody purchased something in a shop. Why not. Here is NO monthly fee. But developers must earn money to create new stuff. Sometimes I also donate to support Anet if I like the content. 3. Many ppl also never use the shop, because it useles. It will not help to win in PvP or to obtain top place of your server in WWW. You can not even make jumping puzzle or beat Tequatl using cash shop :-) So it's not P2Win game at all.
2. I really dislike "there is no monthly fees" as a free pass to gouge the players. The amount the store nickles and dimes you is by far more than what ever a subscription would be. If you chose to not spend money on the store out of principle like I do. You are at a disadvantage.
Lol, I have 5 lvl 80 and one lvl 46 and I also have 4 legendaries on my chars I have never bought anything in the cash shop for real money, I used 800gems to unlock a sixth character slot and I did that with my own gold ingame. So tell me how It would be cheaper for me to play a game like world of warcraft with a sub for 15 months?
Check the first few post from AzurePrower, I remember somewhere he mentioned the achievement leader board. I would not rather argue certain superficial cash shop aspect with a person who might played much longer and much deeper than me. If you love the grind, I wish you have fun doing it.
Originally posted by snow529 /sigh... You like to play with definition, then I will play definition with you too...Define "generally accepted". I saw you used a source from wikipedia, it that correct? It is not a scholarly source, thus it is not reliable. I needed your thought on the critical height for a bump to become a barrier so that I can use my knowledge of how grindy gw2 to help you understand my point.There are actually two way around: quit the game, or use money. Not precisely the one way you described. Define "success". Like I said, both free player and cash player can achieve the same, but it requires a free player much more time(to do repetitive activities). I don't know what's your definition of "success" in an mmo, but I see people running around with green gears shouting "I do big dmg, I can keep myself alive, and I am not useless" all day. They seem to enjoy the game without grinding for best gears. Although when they actually start doing PvE and WvW, they will notice that people who wasted time, or moeny, or both, has a unavoidable advantage.You point is valid if we used the historical definition of P2W. Companies now develop a more subtle way to make player think a system is fair but it is actually just an extension of your "generally accepted" p2w model."In F2P games, the majority of players do not pay anything. GW2 is a B2P game, but after the initial purchase the game is F2P in behavior." I do not understand how you concluded that in to gw2 should be treated same as any other f2p out there--it is not f2p, which was acknowledged by you. F2p is different from gw2--although they are both mmos, without agreeing with the marked value on gw2, one would always choose f2p games, or even do not choose any at all.To make this clear under current state of game: We have two players,both started playing gw2 at this moment. Both of them plays exactly 4 hours a day, both have the same play style, both only plays one toon, and only one of them is willing to pay cash. Cash player will have a huge lead on progress for the first month. After the first month, the gap between them gradually decreases. Indefinitely long time has passed, what you can observe is that two players' progressions are indefinitely close, but the gap still exist. If you find this is hard for you to understand, ask the math guy above about the mathematical idea of "infinity plus one".
Wikipedia would be horrible for looking up the historical impact of the Reagan administration. It it perfect for looking up what a word or phrase means right now. Especially new terms or slang. Wikipedia displays the general consensus answer.
It's not just Wikipedia though. There were other links there. Developers in the industry and websites dedicated to the industry carry the same idea. That "Pay To Win" means the player is denied success or completion unless paying money. It's almost always associated with F2P games as well. I would assume this is because in B2P or P2P games, everyone who is playing is paying money.
So "generally accepted" for the "Pay To Win" definition is when Wikipedia, Developers and Industry Commentators, along with players, even if it's not all players, carry the same definition and use it.
The problem with your examples is that it doesn't work like that for people actually playing the game. It's a nice thought experiment, but the only thing that matters is what people are actually doing. What most of the people are actually doing is playing the game without spending any money in the cash shop.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
ArcheAge will use similar cash shop as gw2's/Rift's. I guess it is time for me to take a rest from mmorpgs /sigh.
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by snow529/sigh... You like to play with definition, then I will play definition with you too...Define "generally accepted". I saw you used a source from wikipedia, it that correct? It is not a scholarly source, thus it is not reliable. I needed your thought on the critical height for a bump to become a barrier so that I can use my knowledge of how grindy gw2 to help you understand my point.There are actually two way around: quit the game, or use money. Not precisely the one way you described. Define "success". Like I said, both free player and cash player can achieve the same, but it requires a free player much more time(to do repetitive activities). I don't know what's your definition of "success" in an mmo, but I see people running around with green gears shouting "I do big dmg, I can keep myself alive, and I am not useless" all day. They seem to enjoy the game without grinding for best gears. Although when they actually start doing PvE and WvW, they will notice that people who wasted time, or moeny, or both, has a unavoidable advantage.You point is valid if we used the historical definition of P2W. Companies now develop a more subtle way to make player think a system is fair but it is actually just an extension of your "generally accepted" p2w model."In F2P games, the majority of players do not pay anything. GW2 is a B2P game, but after the initial purchase the game is F2P in behavior." I do not understand how you concluded that in to gw2 should be treated same as any other f2p out there--it is not f2p, which was acknowledged by you. F2p is different from gw2--although they are both mmos, without agreeing with the marked value on gw2, one would always choose f2p games, or even do not choose any at all. To make this clear under current state of game: We have two players,both started playing gw2 at this moment. Both of them plays exactly 4 hours a day, both have the same play style, both only plays one toon, and only one of them is willing to pay cash. Cash player will have a huge lead on progress for the first month. After the first month, the gap between them gradually decreases. Indefinitely long time has passed, what you can observe is that two players' progressions are indefinitely close, but the gap still exist. If you find this is hard for you to understand, ask the math guy above about the mathematical idea of "infinity plus one".
Wikipedia would be horrible for looking up the historical impact of the Reagan administration. It it perfect for looking up what a word or phrase means right now. Especially new terms or slang. Wikipedia displays the general consensus answer. It's not just Wikipedia though. There were other links there. Developers in the industry and websites dedicated to the industry carry the same idea. That "Pay To Win" means the player is denied success or completion unless paying money. It's almost always associated with F2P games as well. I would assume this is because in B2P or P2P games, everyone who is playing is paying money. So "generally accepted" for the "Pay To Win" definition is when Wikipedia, Developers and Industry Commentators, along with players, even if it's not all players, carry the same definition and use it. The problem with your examples is that it doesn't work like that for people actually playing the game. It's a nice thought experiment, but the only thing that matters is what people are actually doing. What most of the people are actually doing is playing the game without spending any money in the cash shop.
I believe you realize developers will use propaganda to make people buy their games. Think about the p2w definition again under this expression(I don't know man, it makes it sound like a conspiracy).
I was only concern about new player while I wrote down that example. I am totally fine with it myself: I am not going for a legendary, I am not going for ascended, I accumulated plenty of gold, I have all the armor I want, I have friends who are, or are not, elites, I am in a really good guild, I have my in-game reputation, and etc. Current system will not affect me for such a long time that I posted the original discussion purely due to the boredom. It's like what people said above "why should I care about others?" It is because I have nothing else to do at that moment.
Originally posted by snow529 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6087513ArcheAge will use similar cash shop as gw2's/Rift's. I guess it is time for me to take a rest from mmorpgs /sigh. Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by snow529/sigh... You like to play with definition, then I will play definition with you too...Define "generally accepted". I saw you used a source from wikipedia, it that correct? It is not a scholarly source, thus it is not reliable. I needed your thought on the critical height for a bump to become a barrier so that I can use my knowledge of how grindy gw2 to help you understand my point.There are actually two way around: quit the game, or use money. Not precisely the one way you described. Define "success". Like I said, both free player and cash player can achieve the same, but it requires a free player much more time(to do repetitive activities). I don't know what's your definition of "success" in an mmo, but I see people running around with green gears shouting "I do big dmg, I can keep myself alive, and I am not useless" all day. They seem to enjoy the game without grinding for best gears. Although when they actually start doing PvE and WvW, they will notice that people who wasted time, or moeny, or both, has a unavoidable advantage.You point is valid if we used the historical definition of P2W. Companies now develop a more subtle way to make player think a system is fair but it is actually just an extension of your "generally accepted" p2w model."In F2P games, the majority of players do not pay anything. GW2 is a B2P game, but after the initial purchase the game is F2P in behavior." I do not understand how you concluded that in to gw2 should be treated same as any other f2p out there--it is not f2p, which was acknowledged by you. F2p is different from gw2--although they are both mmos, without agreeing with the marked value on gw2, one would always choose f2p games, or even do not choose any at all. To make this clear under current state of game: We have two players,both started playing gw2 at this moment. Both of them plays exactly 4 hours a day, both have the same play style, both only plays one toon, and only one of them is willing to pay cash. Cash player will have a huge lead on progress for the first month. After the first month, the gap between them gradually decreases. Indefinitely long time has passed, what you can observe is that two players' progressions are indefinitely close, but the gap still exist. If you find this is hard for you to understand, ask the math guy above about the mathematical idea of "infinity plus one".
Wikipedia would be horrible for looking up the historical impact of the Reagan administration. It it perfect for looking up what a word or phrase means right now. Especially new terms or slang. Wikipedia displays the general consensus answer. It's not just Wikipedia though. There were other links there. Developers in the industry and websites dedicated to the industry carry the same idea. That "Pay To Win" means the player is denied success or completion unless paying money. It's almost always associated with F2P games as well. I would assume this is because in B2P or P2P games, everyone who is playing is paying money. So "generally accepted" for the "Pay To Win" definition is when Wikipedia, Developers and Industry Commentators, along with players, even if it's not all players, carry the same definition and use it. The problem with your examples is that it doesn't work like that for people actually playing the game. It's a nice thought experiment, but the only thing that matters is what people are actually doing. What most of the people are actually doing is playing the game without spending any money in the cash shop.
I believe you realize developers will use propaganda to make people buy their games. Think about the p2w definition again under this expression(I don't know man, it makes it sound like a conspiracy).
I was only concern about new player while I wrote down that example. I am totally fine with it myself: I am not going for a legendary, I am not going for ascended, I accumulated plenty of gold, I have all the armor I want, I have friends who are, or are not, elites, I am in a really good guild, I have my in-game reputation, and etc. Current system will not affect me for such a long time that I posted the original discussion purely due to the boredom. It's like what people said above "why should I care about others?" It is because I have nothing else to do at that moment.
My point is that what you've outlined is a hypothetical scenario that doesn't actually happen and is only true based on the definition that you are using, which isn't the one used by developers, industry observers or yes, players.
In addition to this, for your premise to be true, the game would have to be "Pay To Win" with most of the players not paying anything.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I read the 14 pages before posting, there are only two people who will and have agreed, those who don't understand what p2w is, and those that HATE this game to a point where anything that makes it look bad is deemed correct.
The only reason this has 14+ pages is because you have granted the say so for those who go on those damn crusades on believing anything with cash shops and etc is P2W(mainly if you don't have to pay that unneeded 15 dollars a month) and those that hate GW2 for a passion to say "I agree because of blah blah blah."
It does not take a genius to understand what is p2w and what isn't p2w, now I'm sorry you are and will still put in a lot of work with all these scenarios and definitions on why this is p2w in your world, but it is unfortunately for you and those that agree, not p2w.
Now I'll let you get the last word, the last say, what ever makes you feel better and able to sleep because this site and the many active posters will deem you correct in this thread, because of pride and goals but simply put as said previously this game is not p2w, you can twist, rearrange anything you want to, I am sorry my dude it is not p2w.
Of course I thought ahead of typing all this, this won't even change your mind and those that agree with you. I'm more pleased with the fact that at least people see it for what it is and understand that it is not p2w, that's all I needed to see so at least there is not a lost cause in humanity when it comes to common sense and thinking.
Take care guys yall be easy, I'll be reading the remainder of this thread with popcorn in one hand and a drink in the other.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I read the 14 pages before posting, there are only two people who will and have agreed, those who don't understand what p2w is, and those that HATE this game to a point where anything that makes it look bad is deemed correct.
The only reason this has 14+ pages is because you have granted the say so for those who go on those damn crusades on believing anything with cash shops and etc is P2W(mainly if you don't have to pay that unneeded 15 dollars a month) and those that hate GW2 for a passion to say "I agree because of blah blah blah."
It does not take a genius to understand what is p2w and what isn't p2w, now I'm sorry you are and will still put in a lot of work with all these scenarios and definitions on why this is p2w in your world, but it is unfortunately for you and those that agree, not p2w.
Now I'll let you get the last word, the last say, what ever makes you feel better and able to sleep because this site and the many active posters will deem you correct in this thread, because of pride and goals but simply put as said previously this game is not p2w, you can twist, rearrange anything you want to, I am sorry my dude it is not p2w.
Of course I thought ahead of typing all this, this won't even change your mind and those that agree with you. I'm more pleased with the fact that at least people see it for what it is and understand that it is not p2w, that's all I needed to see so at least there is not a lost cause in humanity when it comes to common sense and thinking.
Take care guys yall be easy, I'll be reading the remainder of this thread with popcorn in one hand and a drink in the other.
Good post.
No matter what, this game is the best for the price on the market. Not only the best price, but the most fair with it's minor cosmetic cash shop. Folks can say just about anything is P2W if they get it in their heads that it is. /shrug
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
GW2 is not P2W unless your definition of the term makes basically any game with a cash shop P2W.
That is the basic design philosophy of the microctansaction model. By adding the cash shop the game automatically becomes P2W. The only debatable part of GW2's P2W model is how unfair it treats players that do not spend IRL money on the cash shop.
How unfair? After Meowhead posted this thread should have been over with. I'm never surprised when i come to this section of mmorpg. The amount of nonsense that gets posted here sometimes....is just ..
People never care about numbers or facts. They read something they don't like and it's all.....
Take a deep breath and reread my post. I never stated the game was unfair, but that the advantage from microtransactions is the only thing that players should be debating, and that the definition of P2W has no relation to fairness.
To eliminate any confusion on the appropriate defintion of P2W:
P2W? i dont think so. I am a full time college student and i also a full time employee. I have 2hrs each day to play gw2, and i have 6 80's so far and they are fulled with gears. Though the gears i have don't look so good, but they do give me that stat i need. If you want to pay real money to get better gear in gw2 you can go right ahead. You can spend hundred of dollars and your gear will only about 2% better than me, you pay hundred of dollars just to get a few extra point in your stat?. Does that really necessary ? How often do you get to use the gears your bought with real money in pvp? Yes you can use them in WvW but how often do you find yourself 1v1 with someone? They will Zerg the shiet out of you. If Anet let you buy gears with better stat from real money in sPvP then that is a whole new different story, if they do that then i will call it P2W.
GW2 is not P2W unless your definition of the term makes basically any game with a cash shop P2W.
That is the basic design philosophy of the microctansaction model. By adding the cash shop the game automatically becomes P2W. The only debatable part of GW2's P2W model is how unfair it treats players that do not spend IRL money on the cash shop.
How unfair? After Meowhead posted this thread should have been over with. I'm never surprised when i come to this section of mmorpg. The amount of nonsense that gets posted here sometimes....is just ..
People never care about numbers or facts. They read something they don't like and it's all.....
Take a deep breath and reread my post. I never stated the game was unfair, but that the advantage from microtransactions is the only thing that players should be debating, and that the definition of P2W has no relation to fairness.
To eliminate any confusion on the appropriate defintion of P2W:
Your post is nonsense and your link is old and talked to death on this site. If you want to call every f2p mmo p2w go ahead, but don't be upset when people laugh at you. Like people have pointed out...thousands of time before p2p is far more unfair to free players or people who don't buy all content, so if that's what you want to use as p2w...every mmo is p2w...and that's just stupid.
Any idiot can go into a free game expecting to be totally on the same level as a paying player with no extra work required...but that doesn't change the fact that they are, an idiot.
The difference between them and rational people is... can you get to the same "power" as a paying player. If the answer is no, then you have your p2w.
I read the 14 pages before posting, there are only two people who will and have agreed, those who don't understand what p2w is, and those that HATE this game to a point where anything that makes it look bad is deemed correct.
The only reason this has 14+ pages is because you have granted the say so for those who go on those damn crusades on believing anything with cash shops and etc is P2W(mainly if you don't have to pay that unneeded 15 dollars a month) and those that hate GW2 for a passion to say "I agree because of blah blah blah."
It does not take a genius to understand what is p2w and what isn't p2w, now I'm sorry you are and will still put in a lot of work with all these scenarios and definitions on why this is p2w in your world, but it is unfortunately for you and those that agree, not p2w.
Now I'll let you get the last word, the last say, what ever makes you feel better and able to sleep because this site and the many active posters will deem you correct in this thread, because of pride and goals but simply put as said previously this game is not p2w, you can twist, rearrange anything you want to, I am sorry my dude it is not p2w.
Of course I thought ahead of typing all this, this won't even change your mind and those that agree with you. I'm more pleased with the fact that at least people see it for what it is and understand that it is not p2w, that's all I needed to see so at least there is not a lost cause in humanity when it comes to common sense and thinking.
Take care guys yall be easy, I'll be reading the remainder of this thread with popcorn in one hand and a drink in the other.
Pretty much this ^
I'm sorry OP, but your 'updated' definition of P2W is so broad that it literally means 'every MMO with a cash shop'. Which, nowadays, literally means every MMO ever made. As such, this new definition of yours is already meaningless, as it fails to differentiate between one MMO to another. Instead of being a term used to warn people about monetized imbalance in a game (buying power), it has become a term used to slander any MMO people decide they don't like that month.
I read the 14 pages before posting, there are only two people who will and have agreed, those who don't understand what p2w is, and those that HATE this game to a point where anything that makes it look bad is deemed correct.
The only reason this has 14+ pages is because you have granted the say so for those who go on those damn crusades on believing anything with cash shops and etc is P2W(mainly if you don't have to pay that unneeded 15 dollars a month) and those that hate GW2 for a passion to say "I agree because of blah blah blah."
It does not take a genius to understand what is p2w and what isn't p2w, now I'm sorry you are and will still put in a lot of work with all these scenarios and definitions on why this is p2w in your world, but it is unfortunately for you and those that agree, not p2w.
Now I'll let you get the last word, the last say, what ever makes you feel better and able to sleep because this site and the many active posters will deem you correct in this thread, because of pride and goals but simply put as said previously this game is not p2w, you can twist, rearrange anything you want to, I am sorry my dude it is not p2w.
Of course I thought ahead of typing all this, this won't even change your mind and those that agree with you. I'm more pleased with the fact that at least people see it for what it is and understand that it is not p2w, that's all I needed to see so at least there is not a lost cause in humanity when it comes to common sense and thinking.
Take care guys yall be easy, I'll be reading the remainder of this thread with popcorn in one hand and a drink in the other.
This.
This thread is super retarded, OP lacks common sense. And I'm just happy that the first reply I read on this thread was the one I quoted above, so that at least once some of my faith in humanity is restored, rather than diminished...
One of the main reasons I quit Guild Wars 2 was because of all the RNG events and "living" story lock-boxes. That and GW2's endgame is garbage. It's basically "see who can be the fashion King/Queen of all of Tyria."
I read the 14 pages before posting, there are only two people who will and have agreed, those who don't understand what p2w is, and those that HATE this game to a point where anything that makes it look bad is deemed correct.
The only reason this has 14+ pages is because you have granted the say so for those who go on those damn crusades on believing anything with cash shops and etc is P2W(mainly if you don't have to pay that unneeded 15 dollars a month) and those that hate GW2 for a passion to say "I agree because of blah blah blah."
It does not take a genius to understand what is p2w and what isn't p2w, now I'm sorry you are and will still put in a lot of work with all these scenarios and definitions on why this is p2w in your world, but it is unfortunately for you and those that agree, not p2w.
Now I'll let you get the last word, the last say, what ever makes you feel better and able to sleep because this site and the many active posters will deem you correct in this thread, because of pride and goals but simply put as said previously this game is not p2w, you can twist, rearrange anything you want to, I am sorry my dude it is not p2w.
Of course I thought ahead of typing all this, this won't even change your mind and those that agree with you. I'm more pleased with the fact that at least people see it for what it is and understand that it is not p2w, that's all I needed to see so at least there is not a lost cause in humanity when it comes to common sense and thinking.
Take care guys yall be easy, I'll be reading the remainder of this thread with popcorn in one hand and a drink in the other.
This.
This thread is super retarded, OP lacks common sense. And I'm just happy that the first reply I read on this thread was the one I quoted above, so that at least once some of my faith in humanity is restored, rather than diminished...
Don't agree with OP's opinion? Than his thread must be "retarded" and he must lack common sense! Really people are we stooping this low?
I read the 14 pages before posting, there are only two people who will and have agreed, those who don't understand what p2w is, and those that HATE this game to a point where anything that makes it look bad is deemed correct.
The only reason this has 14+ pages is because you have granted the say so for those who go on those damn crusades on believing anything with cash shops and etc is P2W(mainly if you don't have to pay that unneeded 15 dollars a month) and those that hate GW2 for a passion to say "I agree because of blah blah blah."
It does not take a genius to understand what is p2w and what isn't p2w, now I'm sorry you are and will still put in a lot of work with all these scenarios and definitions on why this is p2w in your world, but it is unfortunately for you and those that agree, not p2w.
Now I'll let you get the last word, the last say, what ever makes you feel better and able to sleep because this site and the many active posters will deem you correct in this thread, because of pride and goals but simply put as said previously this game is not p2w, you can twist, rearrange anything you want to, I am sorry my dude it is not p2w.
Of course I thought ahead of typing all this, this won't even change your mind and those that agree with you. I'm more pleased with the fact that at least people see it for what it is and understand that it is not p2w, that's all I needed to see so at least there is not a lost cause in humanity when it comes to common sense and thinking.
Take care guys yall be easy, I'll be reading the remainder of this thread with popcorn in one hand and a drink in the other.
This.
This thread is super retarded, OP lacks common sense. And I'm just happy that the first reply I read on this thread was the one I quoted above, so that at least once some of my faith in humanity is restored, rather than diminished...
Don't agree with OP's opinion? Than his thread must be "retarded" and he must lack common sense! Really people are we stooping this low?
It seems to me they presented that they hold the contentions they do about the thread because of the arguments put forth by both sides. I think you just saw a trigger word and jumped the gun. Read their posts again.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Razeekster One of the main reasons I quit Guild Wars 2 was because of all the RNG events and "living" story lock-boxes. That and GW2's endgame is garbage. It's basically "see who can be the fashion King/Queen of all of Tyria."
First go play the game then come here and talk. That living story lock boxes already gone. They're selling weapon and armor skins directly on the gem store which you can know the price and directly buy them or you can drop in the game.
Ah, ok, am slow today, so, if am not wrong, the point is that it may SOUND p2w for NEW PLAYERS?
if so, well still don't agre, gear is cheap on AH, mats are inflating, so all you have to do is sell your mats and you can get a pretty good gold for your gear, ..and yes who has credit card wil get faster for a very small investiment..lalala..
if not.. well am lost...
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Originally posted by snow529 Umm, it actually happened to one of the new player that I was helping, but have not yet reached that indefinitely close situation. I am also a player and obviously I do not agree with propaganda from developers and some "industry observers" with unknown intention. Although developers are capable of making some players--like you--to believe such model is not p2w, they failed on persuading me due to a clear reason.
You asked what "generally accepted" implied. I showed you what it implied. A range of people both in the industry and players using a particular term a particular way. Your use of the term is not the generally accepted usage.
What was the horrible fate of that one person you tried to help? They realized that Arenanet setup an End Game Grind? I'm shocked that any MMORPG would ever do that.
Most of the people who play GW2 aren't paying anything. They are "winning" when they get the game play they want. I don't think it's too much to expect that a game labeled "Pay To Win" actually require people to pay money to achieve a win. Given that all the content is both accessible and accessed by players who aren't paying anything, I don't see how the game can be labeled "Pay To Win".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
When I playedMMOs you used to pay your 15bucks and forget about the real world, money, credit cards, gems/gold conversion rates, convinience, the value of my gaming time in comparison to how much I earn so I can calculate is it better to buy or play for that sword.
All this now sounds like a freaking business. MMOs are crap now!
All the smart people a few years ago said cash shops will ruin the genre and they were right...
You still have no concept of what "P2" (i.e. Pay-2-Win) means. I care not the other posts in this thread, or your own personal definition; I only care to point out what it means and how GW2 is NOT P2W.
Pay-2-Win: The ability to pay for items -armor and/or weapons- that are stronger than those within the game that allow you to "beat" everyone else in the game who hasn't purchased said items. The items are either equal to top-tier items within the game, or they're significantly better than them. The model of "P2W" is in relation to PvP (Player-vs-Player) and low relation to PvE (Player-vs-Environment), as the former is competitive to win and the latter is personal content objectives with no real competition.
First, and arguably the easiest, way to debunk the "GW2 is P2W" is to state that weapons and armor sets are not purchasable through the game's store. Armor skins, weapon skins, gathering tools, toys, costumes, fireworks, mini pets, dyes, and boosts are all that are sold within the that store.
Boosts are the only thing that directly effects character progression, but they're dependent on the player's ability to effectively play the game. Take for example how a player with a 50% WXP boost gets 20 kills in the 1hr lasting, while a different, more skilled player gets 40 kills in the same hour; at a rate of 20 WXP per kill, the boosted player got 400+200=600 WXP, where as the unboosted skilled player got 800 WXP.
WXP Boosts and XP boosts barely, if at all, give any time advantage over another player unless both are equally skilled. However, many players get several of those boosts free either every couple of weeks to every month, thanks to obtaining just within game play. Glory (sPvP) boosts matter far less, thanks to an extremely competitive state of sPvP as well as the common obtainment for them (I've got a stack of nearly 200 in my sPvP bank).
Another thing to consider is that no matter how much WXP or XP a player has, they cannot top another player who has more skill with Active Dodge and ability targeting/placement. Also, the boosts don't give a player the gold or other materials needed to get top-tier Exotic and Ascended gear. Though in reality it'll take less than a week to deck out in full Exotics once level 80; Ascended takes a bit longer due to time-gates and would be just over 1.5 months to get all the pieces available.
As for "PW2", the best -or should I say 'worse'- examples of it would be Lord of the Ring Online's Legendary Slots Upgrades and Rift's store that allows direct purchase of top-tier gear. Korean MMORPG's are worse off with their PW2 status, but that's not an issue for the west.
That is the basic design philosophy of the microctansaction model. By adding the cash shop the game automatically becomes P2W. The only debatable part of GW2's P2W model is how unfair it treats players that do not spend IRL money on the cash shop.
How unfair? After Meowhead posted this thread should have been over with. I'm never surprised when i come to this section of mmorpg. The amount of nonsense that gets posted here sometimes....is just ..
About doing dungeons, fotm, dailies and etc for ascended gear, let's say two people hit 80 at the same time, will the person spend cash have a significant time lead?
About "requires significantly less gameplay to reach top tier equipment than most subscription MMOs", you realize gw2 is not sub-based right? Then why draw parallel between two different models?
About how grindy and how hard to earn gold, I agree it is not as grindy as some f2p out there, but have you notice gw2 has constant farm nerf in almost everything big patch?
"You can only speed up the process, not skip it." That was exactly my point sir, thank you for pointing it out.
About gem conversion rate, since you are such a master in math, would you mind consider a action that anet could use to manipulate to increase the demand of gem? Would you mind also prove that the manipulation from anet could not be seen by players?
"I won't agree that's pay to win though. You can use that as your definition, but it's not mine. I will agree it's pay to win by your definition which I disagree with, how about that?" Exactly, why bother reply at first? You know that is hard to win on enemy ground right?
Close, but not all. Check posts above.
/sigh... You like to play with definition, then I will play definition with you too...
Define "generally accepted". I saw you used a source from wikipedia, it that correct? It is not a scholarly source, thus it is not reliable. I needed your thought on the critical height for a bump to become a barrier so that I can use my knowledge of how grindy gw2 to help you understand my point.
There are actually two way around: quit the game, or use money. Not precisely the one way you described. Define "success". Like I said, both free player and cash player can achieve the same, but it requires a free player much more time(to do repetitive activities). I don't know what's your definition of "success" in an mmo, but I see people running around with green gears shouting "I do big dmg, I can keep myself alive, and I am not useless" all day. They seem to enjoy the game without grinding for best gears. Although when they actually start doing PvE and WvW, they will notice that people who wasted time, or moeny, or both, has a unavoidable advantage.
You point is valid if we used the historical definition of P2W. Companies now develop a more subtle way to make player think a system is fair but it is actually just an extension of your "generally accepted" p2w model.
"In F2P games, the majority of players do not pay anything. GW2 is a B2P game, but after the initial purchase the game is F2P in behavior." I do not understand how you concluded that in to gw2 should be treated same as any other f2p out there--it is not f2p, which was acknowledged by you. F2p is different from gw2--although they are both mmos, without agreeing with the marked value on gw2, one would always choose f2p games, or even do not choose any at all.
To make this clear under current state of game:
We have two players,both started playing gw2 at this moment. Both of them plays exactly 4 hours a day, both have the same play style, both only plays one toon, and only one of them is willing to pay cash. Cash player will have a huge lead on progress for the first month. After the first month, the gap between them gradually decreases. Indefinitely long time has passed, what you can observe is that two players' progressions are indefinitely close, but the gap still exist. If you find this is hard for you to understand, ask the math guy above about the mathematical idea of "infinity plus one".
As you can see, there are 14 pages of discussion right now. I am sure you can find something insightful in them.
The whole point of mmorpg is to create an immersive world which let you forget about real life(for a little while) and enjoy the new you. I am afraid those prophecies are right--devs focus more on how to make cash shop as a whole more attractive and paying less attention to actual game contents.
OMG I have to explain again...
The p2w process in gw2: swipe card=>get gems=>convert to gold=>open trading post=>buy any exotic armor/trinket you want=>save grinding time.
I would rather not talk about booster for easy discussion. Attack power and toughness buff booster exists in game and that for sure is P2W. I choose this more controversial idea of p2w, instead of p2w booster, is because it is time for us to re-define p2w games. If possible, player could force games like gw2 to remove cash shop, buff farm reward, and produce more engaging contents.
People never care about numbers or facts. They read something they don't like and it's all.....
Yes, I did calculate time needed for ascended. Many parts of ascended gearing cannot actually be sped up through spending money. Spending money does not earn you more laurels, more pristine fractal relics, or more guild commendations. These are time gated, so it's really easy to calculate the time. The time to earn a legendary is difficult to calculate, but as I already proved, the difference in power between a legendary wielding person and an exotic wielding person is less than .5% (Assuming NEITHER player is using traits or food. Traits or food would make the difference even smaller). I calculated the easy part (The amount of power gained) and the silly part (The amount of money you need to spend for the power gained).
I did agree that you can spend cash to get a time lead. I wouldn't say significant though, unless you're willing to outlay significant amounts of money.
Why did I draw a parallel between GW2 and the grind required in a sub based game? Because people are making the contention that the cash shop in GW2 is driving the game to have an increased grind. So, you compare GW2 to other games (In this case subscription games) to see if the statement is true. Which it isn't. Really, you keep on asking questions that confuse me, because it shows that you aren't understanding WHY I bring up points.
Is it clear now? I am specifically countering people saying 'The GW2 cash shop drives a content creation model that has increased grind, to force you into the cash shop', by comparing it to subscription MMOs. I don't know how much simpler I can possibly make this. I noticed you had this problem with my original post too where I would say things that specifically counters other people's statements, and you had no idea why I said them.
Also, Arenanet only nerfs the really obviously broken farm stuff, there are lots of ways to make lots of money, as evidenced by all the rich people running around who don't spend cash. :P Nerfing one method of earning money doesn't equal there being no way to make money.
And it's true, there's no way to tell whether or not Arenanet is manipulating gem prices, but why would they want to manipulate prices so you get =more gold per gem=? If, as you contend, buying gold is the optimal way to level in this game, then Arenanet giving you more gold per gem would actually be counter to their interests. You really didn't think that through at all, did you? Look at that. Think about it. Your two statements are 'buying gold is the best way to improve in the game' and 'Arenanet could be manipulating the gem to gold market'. Then you look and see that gems get you MORE gold, and you realize that they're making themselves... get... less money under your argument? I dunno. Seems silly to me.
And why bother to reply? Because it's easy to shoot down all of your other arguments except for the one that starts with 'I'm going to take something and redefine it then claim it's that word that I redefined using my new definition'. I can't really shoot that down, I can just stare at you in mild disbelief.
But I'm still going to call you out on how that is poor practice.
Lol, I have 5 lvl 80 and one lvl 46 and I also have 4 legendaries on my chars I have never bought anything in the cash shop for real money, I used 800gems to unlock a sixth character slot and I did that with my own gold ingame. So tell me how It would be cheaper for me to play a game like world of warcraft with a sub for 15 months?
It seems like you said "I did agree that you can spend cash to get a time lead", which is exactly my point.
"Yes, I did calculate time needed for ascended", why even bother when you can directly buy legendary with cash?
"So, you compare GW2 to other games (In this case subscription games) to see if the statement is true." I didn't do the original comparison, the credit should goes to you.
"Arenanet only nerfs the really obviously broken farm stuff" think about why this happen. In addition, have you ever heard of heavy mold bag stealth nerf?
"but why would they want to manipulate prices so you get =more gold per gem=", this is exactly how they should manipulate to make more people pay real money. Money spent on leveling is small compares to the money spend on legendary or other "luxuries". With high conversion rate, player will see that spending money could greatly save time needed for grinding. Economy is not my major so I will not go deeper on what I do not know.
I actually understand the reason behind this somewhat offensive discussion between you and me--our basic ideas on time-reward balance are different. I feel the same way, you points are easy to shoot down with my value, and that is exactly the reason I ask you "why bother to reply". I realize this discussion cannot progression without understanding how each other values this world. I guess I will acknowledge your superiority over me and move on. Like this guy said:
Check the first few post from AzurePrower, I remember somewhere he mentioned the achievement leader board. I would not rather argue certain superficial cash shop aspect
with a person who might played much longer and much deeper than me. If you love the grind, I wish you have fun doing it.
Wikipedia would be horrible for looking up the historical impact of the Reagan administration. It it perfect for looking up what a word or phrase means right now. Especially new terms or slang. Wikipedia displays the general consensus answer.
It's not just Wikipedia though. There were other links there. Developers in the industry and websites dedicated to the industry carry the same idea. That "Pay To Win" means the player is denied success or completion unless paying money. It's almost always associated with F2P games as well. I would assume this is because in B2P or P2P games, everyone who is playing is paying money.
So "generally accepted" for the "Pay To Win" definition is when Wikipedia, Developers and Industry Commentators, along with players, even if it's not all players, carry the same definition and use it.
The problem with your examples is that it doesn't work like that for people actually playing the game. It's a nice thought experiment, but the only thing that matters is what people are actually doing. What most of the people are actually doing is playing the game without spending any money in the cash shop.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6087513
ArcheAge will use similar cash shop as gw2's/Rift's. I guess it is time for me to take a rest from mmorpgs /sigh.
I believe you realize developers will use propaganda to make people buy their games. Think about the p2w definition again under this expression(I don't know man, it makes it sound like a conspiracy).
I was only concern about new player while I wrote down that example. I am totally fine with it myself: I am not going for a legendary, I am not going for ascended, I accumulated plenty of gold, I have all the armor I want, I have friends who are, or are not, elites, I am in a really good guild, I have my in-game reputation, and etc. Current system will not affect me for such a long time that I posted the original discussion purely due to the boredom. It's like what people said above "why should I care about others?" It is because I have nothing else to do at that moment.
I believe you realize developers will use propaganda to make people buy their games. Think about the p2w definition again under this expression(I don't know man, it makes it sound like a conspiracy).
I was only concern about new player while I wrote down that example. I am totally fine with it myself: I am not going for a legendary, I am not going for ascended, I accumulated plenty of gold, I have all the armor I want, I have friends who are, or are not, elites, I am in a really good guild, I have my in-game reputation, and etc. Current system will not affect me for such a long time that I posted the original discussion purely due to the boredom. It's like what people said above "why should I care about others?" It is because I have nothing else to do at that moment.
My point is that what you've outlined is a hypothetical scenario that doesn't actually happen and is only true based on the definition that you are using, which isn't the one used by developers, industry observers or yes, players.
In addition to this, for your premise to be true, the game would have to be "Pay To Win" with most of the players not paying anything.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I read the 14 pages before posting, there are only two people who will and have agreed, those who don't understand what p2w is, and those that HATE this game to a point where anything that makes it look bad is deemed correct.
The only reason this has 14+ pages is because you have granted the say so for those who go on those damn crusades on believing anything with cash shops and etc is P2W(mainly if you don't have to pay that unneeded 15 dollars a month) and those that hate GW2 for a passion to say "I agree because of blah blah blah."
It does not take a genius to understand what is p2w and what isn't p2w, now I'm sorry you are and will still put in a lot of work with all these scenarios and definitions on why this is p2w in your world, but it is unfortunately for you and those that agree, not p2w.
Now I'll let you get the last word, the last say, what ever makes you feel better and able to sleep because this site and the many active posters will deem you correct in this thread, because of pride and goals but simply put as said previously this game is not p2w, you can twist, rearrange anything you want to, I am sorry my dude it is not p2w.
Of course I thought ahead of typing all this, this won't even change your mind and those that agree with you. I'm more pleased with the fact that at least people see it for what it is and understand that it is not p2w, that's all I needed to see so at least there is not a lost cause in humanity when it comes to common sense and thinking.
Take care guys yall be easy, I'll be reading the remainder of this thread with popcorn in one hand and a drink in the other.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Good post.
No matter what, this game is the best for the price on the market. Not only the best price, but the most fair with it's minor cosmetic cash shop. Folks can say just about anything is P2W if they get it in their heads that it is. /shrug
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Take a deep breath and reread my post. I never stated the game was unfair, but that the advantage from microtransactions is the only thing that players should be debating, and that the definition of P2W has no relation to fairness.
To eliminate any confusion on the appropriate defintion of P2W:
http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/177190/next_generation_monetization_.php
Your post is nonsense and your link is old and talked to death on this site. If you want to call every f2p mmo p2w go ahead, but don't be upset when people laugh at you. Like people have pointed out...thousands of time before p2p is far more unfair to free players or people who don't buy all content, so if that's what you want to use as p2w...every mmo is p2w...and that's just stupid.
Any idiot can go into a free game expecting to be totally on the same level as a paying player with no extra work required...but that doesn't change the fact that they are, an idiot.
The difference between them and rational people is... can you get to the same "power" as a paying player. If the answer is no, then you have your p2w.
Everything else is just poor people complaining.
Pretty much this ^
I'm sorry OP, but your 'updated' definition of P2W is so broad that it literally means 'every MMO with a cash shop'. Which, nowadays, literally means every MMO ever made. As such, this new definition of yours is already meaningless, as it fails to differentiate between one MMO to another. Instead of being a term used to warn people about monetized imbalance in a game (buying power), it has become a term used to slander any MMO people decide they don't like that month.
This.
This thread is super retarded, OP lacks common sense. And I'm just happy that the first reply I read on this thread was the one I quoted above, so that at least once some of my faith in humanity is restored, rather than diminished...
Smile
Don't agree with OP's opinion? Than his thread must be "retarded" and he must lack common sense! Really people are we stooping this low?
Smile
It seems to me they presented that they hold the contentions they do about the thread because of the arguments put forth by both sides. I think you just saw a trigger word and jumped the gun. Read their posts again.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
First go play the game then come here and talk. That living story lock boxes already gone. They're selling weapon and armor skins directly on the gem store which you can know the price and directly buy them or you can drop in the game.
Ah, ok, am slow today, so, if am not wrong, the point is that it may SOUND p2w for NEW PLAYERS?
if so, well still don't agre, gear is cheap on AH, mats are inflating, so all you have to do is sell your mats and you can get a pretty good gold for your gear, ..and yes who has credit card wil get faster for a very small investiment..lalala..
if not.. well am lost...
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
You asked what "generally accepted" implied. I showed you what it implied. A range of people both in the industry and players using a particular term a particular way. Your use of the term is not the generally accepted usage.
What was the horrible fate of that one person you tried to help? They realized that Arenanet setup an End Game Grind? I'm shocked that any MMORPG would ever do that.
Most of the people who play GW2 aren't paying anything. They are "winning" when they get the game play they want. I don't think it's too much to expect that a game labeled "Pay To Win" actually require people to pay money to achieve a win. Given that all the content is both accessible and accessed by players who aren't paying anything, I don't see how the game can be labeled "Pay To Win".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.