I'll be honest and say that I'm having more fun now than I did before the CU. I always thought the combat system pre CU was just dull and boring. Lay down states and spam your best attack. Find new target, rinse and repeat. Create a macro and you're all done. Just let it play itself. Now I have to pay attention. No more going off to fix dinner while my character fights.
Before, combat was decided by who had what. Who had the best armor, buffs and weapons. Now, while that still plays a factor, its more dependent on what you do at the keyboard.
All the people that spent all that time and credits to get the most uber stuff really got screwed. Of course, now the system shows who really has the chops to actually use their stuff the best.
Oh, and one other thing. PVP battles rock!
Now, I'm not going to defend SOE because quite frankly I am none to pleased about some of the decisions they've made in the past. On the other hand I don't really think they had a choice here and they've taken the game in the right direction. As someone before me said, they've taken it more mainstream. Which is good, IMHO.
Now, a couple of things that really make me go "WHAT?" are some of the comments made on the official boards though. Quite funny. Such as "This isn't the game I paid for!!!" Uhm, hate to break it to you, but you bought an Online Game in the Star Wars Universe. Its got the name, characters, worlds, etc. I do feel sorry and feel your pain if one of the game mechanics doesn't make you happy. Honestly.
Another thing I don't understand is this. Why do so many veterans (myself included) make the statement that SOE didn't listen to the player base?
I hit the forums everyday. There were thousands of voices all addressing each of their personal concerns. Different view points and different objectives and different goals. There was NO UNITY. No common objective. NONE. The player base offered SOE not one suggestion for the CU, but thousands (not counting duplicate ideas). There is just NO WAY SOE could have satisfied everyone.
Now, with that said, there are good things and bad things about the CU. For now it holds my interest and I'm happy its here. Are there problems? Yep. I hate the level system. HATE IT. Is there forced grouping? No, but you will do better in a group, but you can solo. Easily.
So, if you're interested give it a try, I recommend it. If not, well best of luck and I hope you find something that meets your needs.
Originally posted by legacyguy I also suggest you work on your "reporting" in the future and dig a little deeper instead of being satisfied with the surface.
Can you elaborate on what deeper issues I should have reported on? I would gladly comment on all of them to your satisfaction. I have many different opinions on various aspects of the combat upgrade, many of them unfavorable as you might have noticed in the article. I'm trying not to take any 'sides' but report it as I see it.
- m o n t h i g o s -
My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of MMORPG.com
[quote]Originally posted by Monthigos Generally I find community relations to be unsatisfactory. I think the devs tend to alternate between listening to those who whine the loudest and not listening at all. I can't say I blame them though. Most players unconsciously ask for an easier game and get bored when they get it. In the past when they focused on a particual profession it tended to create very tipped FOTM profession, until they 'balanced' rifleman and then chose not to touch combat for a VERY long time. [/b][/quote]
I think the reality here is that the gamers that tend to post in online forums and such tend to represent the vocal minority of most games. A vast majority of players never come online to post to message boards, attend chats, go to conventions or fan faires, etc. so developers and management are forced to guess as to what a majority of their player base really wants.
And face it, few people like change of any kind. I left SWG as a result of there not really being anything to do other than to go on silly console missions that were essentially killing rats in the sewers. I've thought about coming back to check things out again, but since SOE won't honor their All Access station pass, I won't be investigating the upgraded SWG any time soon....
What was "edited" out of your article before you posted it? Many of us would like to see what you had to cut. It hardly came off as objective, but then any post-structualist would tell you that being "completely" objective and unbiased is "essentially" impossible.
Also, you touched VERY lightly on the crafting and non-combat professions of SWG. SWG was never 100% about combat. A huge portion of the now cancelled playerbase were entertainers and artisians. What about them when the CU became "live" and practically ruined the playablity of many of them? Not everyone likes to fight. Combat indirectly influenced all non-combat professions, but those that played just so they could "create" something instead of "destroy" somethere are now alienated.
Another thing, you quoted the favorite phrase by Thunderheart yet if you went back to many, many of the posts and discussions from the devs concerning the "goals", "objects", and "improvements" that were promised during conception of the CU you would see that a fraction of these "promises" and "ideas" that much if not the vast majority of the playerbase agreed on were ever implimented. What happened to the "revamp" and "balancing" of the original "system" that many liked but agreed needed improvement and debugging? What motived SOE to "dumb down" and "simplify" to a "level" based system that steals the mudane and time-worn aspects from the leading popular MMOs today? Why did they be rid of what made SWG so unique and less "starwasy" with the "cutsey" new icons, animations, and what not? If you can answer these questions honestly then you are on your way to digging deeper into the real motivations that are driving the decisions made by the "suits" as some would call them.
I thought the author of the article did a great job in covering both Pro and Con of the CU.
unfortunately tho, I disagree with him.
I have been with SWG since 2 years before the game launched when it was nothing more than 3 forum boards and we spent all day discussing the future of the game. I logged in on game 2 of launch and watched as my childhood dreams of Star Wars were finally open to me.
I have watched as SOE has nerfed everything in the game from Creature handlers to Artisans to Weapons, theme parks and Yes, Newbie Melons. My love for Star Wars got me through all these as the nonexistent Jedi System was finally introduced six months after launch, to the past 12 months where every question asked to a dev was responded with the "The Combat Revamp will cover it." easy-out answer.
I was one of the MANY who thought we NEEDED a Combat Revamp and welcomed it. We hoped to have armor and buffs balanced. Class speaciels that had never worked since launch finally put in game. Classes like Ranger, Squad Leader and Smuggler finally get the revamps they deserved since half their skills were never in game to begin with.
We waited and watched and hoped.
I Beta'ed the CU when it went to TC3 last month. I sent in report after report and flooded the forums with my suggestions and fixes and bug reports. I did everything SOE wanted and more.
THEN they ticked me off. They launched the CU to LIVE servers weeks ahead of the scheduled May 5th upgrade and it was still riddled with Bugs. The SAME bugs I had reported back in TC3. Dallas Dickson said in another sites interview that they pushed the CU live cause they needed extra feedback on the bugged systems. So, basically SOE has FORCED ALL their players into PAYING to BETA Test SWG?
That is BS!
That was the straw that broke my Bantha's back, plus add in the fact that 80% of everything I had worked for the last 2 years was now turned upside down and most of it made useless with the new conversions of weapons, armor and items. That is it.
My subscription ends in June and I won't be coming back. Cancelled my ROTW pre-order and looking for a new game.
The anger most Vets of SWG feel today is that of betrayal cause SOE either didn't listen to us about the bugs or because they flagrantly took advantage of our patronage with the Beta testing on Live.
If you want to pay to beta test a game, SWG is for you.
If you want to build up a character for a year and then have the Devs come in and make all you worked for useless, then SWG is for you.
If you love Star Wars and want to live in the Star Wars universe, KOTOR is for you, not SWG.
Originally posted by legacyguy What was "edited" out of your article before you posted it? Many of us would like to see what you had to cut. It hardly came off as objective, but then any post-structualist would tell you that being "completely" objective and unbiased is "essentially" impossible. Also, you touched VERY lightly on the crafting and non-combat professions of SWG. SWG was never 100% about combat. A huge portion of the now cancelled playerbase were entertainers and artisians. What about them when the CU became "live" and practically ruined the playablity of many of them? Not everyone likes to fight. Combat indirectly influenced all non-combat professions, but those that played just so they could "create" something instead of "destroy" somethere are now alienated. Another thing, you quoted the favorite phrase by Thunderheart yet if you went back to many, many of the posts and discussions from the devs concerning the "goals", "objects", and "improvements" that were promised during conception of the CU you would see that a fraction of these "promises" and "ideas" that much if not the vast majority of the playerbase agreed on were ever implimented. What happened to the "revamp" and "balancing" of the original "system" that many liked but agreed needed improvement and debugging? What motived SOE to "dumb down" and "simplify" to a "level" based system that steals the mudane and time-worn aspects from the leading popular MMOs today? Why did they be rid of what made SWG so unique and less "starwasy" with the "cutsey" new icons, animations, and what not? If you can answer these questions honestly then you are on your way to digging deeper into the real motivations that are driving the decisions made by the "suits" as some would call them.
Perhaps you missed my earlier post, or maybe simply chose to ignore it. Either way, you need to understand that simply because you do not agree does not mean it is wrong. I once again invite you to write an educated, intelligent and well-supported response if you truly find his editorial so offensive to your senses. Provided it meets the above criteria, I will give it equal visibility.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Perhaps you missed my earlier post, or maybe simply chose to ignore it. Either way, you need to understand that simply because you do not agree does not mean it is wrong. I once again invite you to write an educated, intelligent and well-supported response if you truly find his editorial so offensive to your senses. Provided it meets the above criteria, I will give it equal visibility.[/qoute]
Is my previous response above not intelligent enough for you? I have presented questions to Monthigos and every other individual that reads my post and I also displayed some view points that I felt were lacking. Monthigos does do a decently thorough job with the article but he was rarely asking any hard questions or seeking them out. He seemed to gloss over everything with an optimistic view, but need I point out that optimism isn't in many SWG player's vocabulary lately since they held onto that optimism everytime Thunderheart would say "that will be addressed in the combat revamp"?
That is my challenge to those that care to try it. Seek the harder questions and look for their answers. Too many people take things at face value rarely reading between the lines. Why do infomercials and politicians work so well in convincing people to believe them? Think about it.
Good work Monthigos, I thought that your editorial on the post-CU SWG was very well written, and your thoughts on how you now see the game were excellently presented (although I'd be curious to see what was clipped for space limitations). There will, of course, be differing opinions of players about the CU.. those in favor, those against, and the undecided. In this respect yo have indicated where you stand, and no-one can fault your opinion. It is, afterall, the right of everyone to choose their own opinions on matters.
I would hope that those who dislike the CU, and seem to have taken it upon themselves to disagree with your opinion, take the time to draft an article similar to yours expressing their opposing point of view. Perhaps if I have time over the next few days (while not preparing to be at E3 next week) I will sit down and formulate such an article of my own thoughts, opionions, and experiences within SWG, post-CU.
Again, kudos to you Monthigos. I found your editorial to be one of the better post-CU articles on MMORPG... even if I dont fully agree with everything you wrote. But that is life, is it not?
Originally posted by Monthigos SOE paid me ten million dollars to write this article. Thought I would answer that question since it seems to be a popular one.
And this caused me to just about split my sides laughing!! Dear God, dont we just wish that was the case for the editorials we write/broadcast.
Cheers!!
-===- -===- DJ Cavalier -- Gamer Radio Initiative -==- Gamer Radio Initiative (www.gri-network.com) - Serious About Gaming
Just to be clear - I was not saying anything specific about your post (save the parts about it getting a tad personal). Rather, I was hoping someone with an opposite opinion would write something up in a more publishable form (IE: .doc via email that would make sense in isolation of this thread).
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
I left Galaxies because the game was absurdly out of balance, and the PVE was simply a joke in 99.9% of cases. The PVP was not all that great either, which for me is the end game and has to be good to keep me around.
Also in my mind, one should be nervous taking a hunting trip in Endor or Dath. Not be able to take a solo jaunt out there and waste rancors 2 and 3 at a time with your bars barely moving. And that was how the game WAS.
It certainly isn't anymore. lol Though for me it is no big deal, because I like grouping better anyway. No so for everyone, I understand that.
Even most of my rl friends that were still playing have left, especially the 3 Jedis that I PERSONALY knew.
I know I will get flamed, but this CU in my mind is exactly how it should be for Jedi at this point in the story line. You should have swarms of Bounty Hunters after you gain visability. It SHOULD be hard to grind. Jedi are supposed to be uber rare.
That said, what I do not hear is people sharing their experiances on how they have been SUCCESSFUL in the CU, and they are out there.
Thank you MMORPG.com for presently the other side the story.
Don't get me wrong. I completely understand that this is the biggest upgrade in mmorpg history. They cannot please everyone. And in revamping what was a terminaly broken system they had no choice but to radiacly alter weapons, armor, etc, in order to finally achieve that balance at least in my opinion.
Are there bugs? Yes.
Sucks items got nerfed so hard? Yes for those that had them, no for balance issues.
Does the level system need tweaking. HELL YES! And that tweaking can and should solve at least some of the Jedi problem grinding.
But I think that overall this will a very good system. Glad I came back, so far at least.
Just my 2 cents as an old vet coming back to see how the new system operated, and only been back a couple weeks at that. Please no flames. Just sharing my experiances and opinions.
the main problem with the CU is the damage multiplier system. It takes a game that was crafter based and makes it pointless. It also renders loot pointless. Case in point...
Im a lvl 50 combat player. I go attack a lvl 55 piket and die. I then go buy a ackley powerhammer thats been sliced at 35% max damage for millions of credits. I return to the lvl 55 piket and die again. I then seek out an armorsmith and have him make some ubber armor with nightsister shards and layors and yellow geo cubes. I also get the armor sliced for encumberances. Again I return to that lvl 55 piket and die. I then seek out a chef who makes the best food and drink on server. I return to the piket and die. I then spend 50 million credits on skil tapes to enhance my speed, accuracy, etc. Again I return to that lvl 55 piket and yep DIE AGAIN. Thanks to a damage multiplier system I have no chance to effect combat in any meaningful way. In essence, it doesnt matter how good or bad my armor is, I will always lose.
This is why players are upset. It makes all the effort for a player to get the best resources worthless. It makes all the effort to buy or loot 50 million worth of 12 point tapes useless.
All the loot hunters are out of a job. They have no point in hunting for loot anymore. Go see the trade forums, its quite sad. They used to be so very active, now completely dead as loot and crafted items are pretty much pointless.
Get rid of the damage multiplier system and CL for the most part. And apologize for miselading us and perhaps we'd return. Many are upset because we were told to live with the bugs and broken professions because fixes were on the way. We never asked for a new game, just fixes to the old one. So yeah we are upset and justified in our anger.
I disagree with the author , the CU ruined the game for and many in my guild which all left for Guild Wars. I loved SWG till the CU, now I will never play a SOE game ever again. I loved craftnig so much I had a Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, and Shipwright . Now I can be one hit by a nuna its ridiculou, at least before I had the chance of survial setting a harvester or factory. Now if a mob is by my harvester I cannot go and get resources from it. I was a avid crafter spent many hours crafting , and I even had a jedi which my little brother grinded for me.
Good luck to SOE cuz I think they going to need it, and if you like the CU thats great more power to you. If you dont like it well other games are out there and take away from SOE revenue .
I am not gonna say I agree or disagree with your opinion of the CU. That is not what I am upset about. Generally my problems have been on several levels.
1. I am colorblind. I could play this game relatively well before the CU. Now I cannot very well because of the icons. (on a side note, you forgot to mention the HAM bars being red on red, blue on blue, and green on green. Guess how hard that is for me) SOE completely ignored anything any of us had to say. I had friends quit because they discriminated against me. Now, take that and imagine them telling people that SOE discriminates against people with disabilities. I sent a very informative email, no response. Posted the email in the boards, deleted.
2. SOE violated their own ELUA and TOS. Plain and simple. If I had enough money, I'd sue the crap out of them. Here are the reasons why.
The core game system is not the same, hence it is not an upgrade or enhancement. SOE has not even tried to denounce this point. They have come right out and said it was a new game. Therefor they have not given the customer what they paid for.
They admittedly released a buggy system to the live servers. This violates so many laws I won't even start. It simply falls back to the first point. Yes it will have bugs, but they said the live servers were going to be testing the new system. I'm sorry but if I pay to play, I should get to play on a server I don't have to test on. They have a server for this, yet they refused to use it. And still refuse to. Live servers are now 5 publishes ahead of TC. ???????
blatant discrimination against people with disabilities. While not a violation of ELUA or TOS, it is a liability issue that again they basically said they don't care.
3. Failure to listen to player base. This has been gone into at great length so I won't go there.
4. Not allowing at least a Refund or Change to a different SOE game. While EA did not have too, I'm sure you remember when EnB sunset, they offered a copy of either TSO or UO as compensation for the loss of EnB. While this would not have quieted all, it may have helped some people deal with it. Maybe even offered a special price for RotW to people who had SWG for a certain amount of time. But they offered nothing.
4. Lack of communication during testing. SOE said they fixed all the reported bugs. This was a lie, read the Dickinson interview. Some of the bugs still on live were reported in beta. They said it was the testing community's fault that the CU had to go live. Again another lie, a interview with someone from LA said they wanted it live now. Also keep in mind that this was not the CU that was alpha tested. Ask any alpha testers willing to talk (and there are some out there) they will tell you that much.
While the CU could be enjoyable to me, I find it too hard to play to be objective. All I can basically do is sit there and hope I don't die. As I am a Doc, I can't find a group because of the colorblind issue. They are afraid I might not see they are dying. How can I argue? They are correct, I can't tell very well. They may very well die.
So, I can't give an honest opinion about the CU itself, I can say that I don't like it because in it's current form, it breeds discrimination against people. And worst of all SOE does not care. Looks like I'll not only quit SOE games, but I won't be buying the PS3 or PSP either. I'll be giving the rest of my game budget to Microsoft. At least they don't hate people with disabilities. Just look at their company policies, one of the most liberal company policies in the world. SOE probably has one of the worst company policies in the world.
Being a subscriber to SWG for over 2 years I feel somewhat betrayed by SOE with the Combat Upgrade. The Combat Upgrade tells the casual player or the player with limited time that its not for them. The days of solo missions are over and SWG is now practically forcing people to be in groups to have any fun.
The Combat Upgrade takes the fun out of being a melee classes to include Teras Kasi, Fencer, Swordsman, Pikeman, and Jedi. The Combat Upgrade takes away what makes those skills fun.
In the Jedi class only those who have completed their Jedi Knight Trials like this Combat Upgrade. For new Jedi and those in process of earning skills it makes the 34 million Jedi needed nearly impossible to complete unless your playing the game 10 hours a day. In addition, the Combat Upgrade turned Jedi abilities into a mere shadow of what Jedi should be. A solo Master Commando should not be able to kill a Jedi Knight...
The only professions that are any fun are the ranged professions which have more skills than ever. You will never hear them having issues because this CU is everything them wanted.
Overall from the perspective of a SWG veteran this CU is a disaster. It took away the little fun I was still having. I have now cancelled my SWG account and have no remorse in it. One less person SOE will get money from.
I know my statements are highly opinionated, but to each their own. I've stuck with SOE through 2 years of headaches and mistakes. I've earned my right to have opinions.
I am an old school galaxies player .. having beta'd the game and played it on and off since then. I came back to the game most recently a week before CU hit. My first reaction to CU was disbelief, anger, and a whole lot of confusion. It was a completly different game. As many people have pointed out the new system is strikingly similar to that hack job EQ2.. which in my eyes (as if the hack job comment didnt clarify this).. is a bad thing. And as a crafter/combat hybrid character my life went to heck ..fast. And that there would of been the death of Galaxies for me had it not been for my guild (SRA on Sunrunner ...wookiees rule!). They encouraged me to stick in there and started taking me along with them in groups. In CU the way it works now for those that dont know ...is everyone in the group is concidered the same level as the highest member. So even as a CL14 novice rifleman ..I could hold my own against even the toughest critters in the game as long as I was grouped with my CL80 friends. Well it didnt take long ..especially after the double xp week ..for me to stack on a few combat levels. I'm now nearly a master rifleman/ master tailor/ master artisan ... CL54(after some respecing of some useless skills like merchant into more useful ones) and once more have found my love for the game. The CU has actually made my guild alot tighter because we now group with each all the time instead of soloing constantly. So in the end ..I still dont know that it was a good thing or that the old system couldnt of been tweaked and kept ..but CU is NOT the death of galaxies ..and if people stick with it ...you may just find the game really really fun again.
i use to play SWG i was doing a crafter only typ Armour/Weapons..and Ship Write but after the(not to be named shit) came out there was no way in hell to do my job i had no armour or weapons that i could use any more they say get Guild members to help you or hier others but no one is going to stand around for 3-5 hours as you check all the harvesters. They you still can solo **cough BULL SHIT cough** as a newb you do ok but unless some Vet player hooks you up with creds or items you are SO Freld and alot of the Vet players have left if you never played SWG befor(see above note) then it be a good game but us old players DO NOT like it and they say they listen to there players and give them what they want when nearly 2000 players say don't do this and you not listen the only thing they listen to are the people that pay them and to hell with the people that pay to play the game. I loved SWGs now SWGs seems more like EQ if i wanted to play EQ i would have. Now all i am is sad that SWGs has been lost to try tobe like all other online games they had a good idea but a VERY bad way to do it.
Well thats my view on it and you may not agree but then agin you work for them so you have to say nice things i on the other had was paying them for a game and they seem to have for gotten the old saying...The customer is all ways right..cause they are the ones paying for it.
look i respect you're opinion but the cu ruined my game i loved to solo i play bad hours so what am i supposed to do when i cant get a group ill tell u die a hundred times i respeced from a master tk,fencer,shipwright to carabineer master and sure i could go solo it just took me ten minutes to kill one thing i really liked you're article you're a great writer who i hope has great success but please send me an email with why sony does not have customer service and why they have testcenter if their not going to listen to feedback and i would really like to know best guess on how many guys/gals quit
and like said my hats off to you for liking the cu but my game sucks now any suggestions on a new game?
nice article... good summary of the pros and cons. I would have liked some more words about the PvE level difference modifier causing all sorts of problems and the heavy handed forum moderation. Also about the Rage of the Wookiees expansion, even if that was not the focus of your editorial.
You hit upon a basic truth that every SWG player has to understand before he starts playing. SWG has not, is not and will never be the perfect game and has its problems, which IMHO comes from the way this project is managed and stuck in a tug of war between SOE, Lucasarts and its customers. More problems than in other games. Despite that SWG is STILL a darn good game ... especially because of the community playing this game. Good enough to have caused addiction in a great many people as you see mentioned in this and many other threads. Good enough IMHO to give you hours upon hours of great moments that help forget other bad experiences.
Those players that can accept this will enjoy this game. The others may be better off moving on to another game.
I can only shake my head about those posters that immediately accuse an author of taking money from a corp whenever the OPINION expressed in the article does not sit well with the posters own opinion. But they would never care to admit that theirs is not the OBJECTIVE UNALTERABLE FINAL TRUTH ... so the author has to be lying through his teeth while getting money stuffed into his underwear by President Smily of SOE.
Some will keep playing and have fun. Other dont enjoy the game anymore and will (should ?) move on.
After read this inspiring CU review, i said to myself, ok man just forget about all the frustration of the past last days and think positive, get a group and enjoy the CU, so i took a deep breath and logged in thinking that this gonna be last chance to reinstate my account, so i founded myself looking for ppl to group with, after 2 hours bouncing around from planet to planet, i found some guys to group with at the squill cave, but oh surprise, all the squills that used to be a dangerous creature for me now they are grey lvl for me, so i wasnt getting any xp,(but i got killed twice), so after i died the second time i decided to try something different and go solo for a while, i went to dantooine to get some missions, all the missions pay probably half what they used to pay, so i found myself hunting this yellow crits with my lvl 15 pet and no matter how i tied i was getting slained all the time, so after about 5 hours of frustration (again) i logged out thinking how this guys destroyed what it was a really original and fun game, so now im looking forward to try city of heroes, ill se you guys over there....
The CU brought good things which seriously needed to be fixed but it brough in additiong things with it AKA the LEVEL SYSTEM which were totally unnecessary.
In addition the way the player community was handled and the development process, skipping the closed aplha with the chose correspondents and players, the early push to live because they weren't getting enough feedback and issues reported on the test servers because they alienated A VERY LARGE base of players, thus ESSENTIALLY making THE LIVE SERVERs to BETA TESTING SERVERs was something that A LOT of PRO CU players feel very bad about ever having suported the CU.
In addition although they tried to dedicate different combat roles to each profession and overhauling all profession they broke the individual feel of most of the professions and some totally (especially non combat professions). And all they say is " we are working on -content- and -fixes- for it but give no outlook on what and all what is implemented is so far from what the community every supported/wanted/ suggested, that they could trash their whole forum in the first place.
As already mentioned the level system put over the current skill system doesnt mix at all. As there is no real level based progress on any profession since craftes dont "level" at all and lvl 80 chars just "have more skill devoted to combat". This this is not a level but more skillpoint distribution.
To see the origin I quote a post from handsnake from the SOE forum, which was as well in the cu discussion temp forum as it is now in the core system forum:
Please take the time to read all of the points as well as the conclusions. Keep responses civil, please.
I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7. There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.
The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.
Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.
This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.
Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.
1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds. The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.
The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated. Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.
Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.
This is the result of the 'level' system. Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result. This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat. The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.
A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.
The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around. This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.
2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.
The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place? XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.
It was never an issue at all.
However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.
In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.
The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it. It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.
It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.
It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced. The reason why it was is the kicker.
3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not. This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.
So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.
This is a cheat.
The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.
It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.
XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons. Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside. Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE* *(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)
So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the hell did they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"
Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats. Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.
You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid. You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary. These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.
Bam. Done. Quick. Easy. Fast. And WORTHLESS.
That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU. Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use. And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession. You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.
It takes time which they claim they don't have. The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window. It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood. Without it, the CU would work.
With it, SWG is dead.
Edit: Removed some colors and cleaned up some spacing.
Message Edited by Handsnake on 04-30-2005 11:27 AM
I cant say I liked the CU when it hit live, but the more I play the more it grows on me. I actually changed now from having 1 combat account and 2 non-combatant account to 2 combatants and only 1 crafter.
CU has lots of bugs, but I am gonna give the team this summer to get it right, then we will see...
My my, SWG CU appear to be their undoing , thousand are complaining and quitting and SOE apppears to only care for about 2 minutes then its back to their way or the highway attitude that SOE has mastered oh theses many years. I should thank them for game banning me for allenged forum misuse ( no other MMPOG does this). Now I have a 5 month headstart on playing WoW ( pally is 47 - and a whole barrel of alts) and Guild Wars ( you gotta respect the price compared to EQ2).
Folks ask me why I continue to ride SOE then and I should just be happy with the new games .
I say that would make it nice and easy for SOE that I would just disappear into the games - too bad , SOE didn't offer me any breaks ,why should I.
I'd like to add my few cents.Frist off i don't love the cu,but it had to be done.Alot of problems before the cu where armor which got a major over haul.2nd they removed all the major buffs and mind buffs(hurray).3rd they made grouping more fun now and worth it, you get full xp and full cret's when you do mission's with a group.I made 2 million just last night with a group on dant.4th they blanced all races wich is a big snice wookiee's had it real bad before cu.5th they made classes have role's wow swg is now becoming a mmo(i bet most people in here are soloers, i bet 60% of all mmo would rather group then solo hench why its a mmo).So if your mad at soe for not listing to there player base i.e people on the fourms.Well they did examples are wookiees needed armor so they gave them armor they got alot of flak that woookiee never had armor.Here anthere one everyone whanted to know how to get jedi way back when,when they wouldnt tell people.But the people on the fourms bitch so much that they told you how and then they started to make a new system hench the start of the holo grind.I can go on how the old dev team listin to the people on the foums how you think the cu started.
Everyone on the fourms bitch so much about anthere class they had to nerf so many 1st it was pistol then commando then combat medic anyways if you realy hate the cu and your going to play guild wars for a second just take a look at what gw has and what the new cu has for starwars ok gw you dont have to group but at the end game in pve you do,starwars you dont have to group but its better to group.In gw your class is muti role war/me war/mo same goes for swg tkm/doc rifle/cm.I see alot people saying o im going play gw or wow because swg is so sucking the fact is your going to waste time on anthere game that is the same thing now as swg.So if you spent a couple of day's respecing and you like to solo i'll help you out. I find the best classes to solo are tkm/doc or pikeman/doc.Yes there are alot of bug's, but it wouldn't be swg without bug's.They did alot of patching in the last week to blance mob lvl's.I havent seen any 200-400 lvl mobs any more and even in the nightsister cave the 2 bosses at the end are now 85 instead of 400.
Comments
Interesting article.
I'll be honest and say that I'm having more fun now than I did before the CU. I always thought the combat system pre CU was just dull and boring. Lay down states and spam your best attack. Find new target, rinse and repeat. Create a macro and you're all done. Just let it play itself. Now I have to pay attention. No more going off to fix dinner while my character fights.
Before, combat was decided by who had what. Who had the best armor, buffs and weapons. Now, while that still plays a factor, its more dependent on what you do at the keyboard.
All the people that spent all that time and credits to get the most uber stuff really got screwed. Of course, now the system shows who really has the chops to actually use their stuff the best.
Oh, and one other thing. PVP battles rock!
Now, I'm not going to defend SOE because quite frankly I am none to pleased about some of the decisions they've made in the past. On the other hand I don't really think they had a choice here and they've taken the game in the right direction. As someone before me said, they've taken it more mainstream. Which is good, IMHO.
Now, a couple of things that really make me go "WHAT?" are some of the comments made on the official boards though. Quite funny. Such as "This isn't the game I paid for!!!" Uhm, hate to break it to you, but you bought an Online Game in the Star Wars Universe. Its got the name, characters, worlds, etc. I do feel sorry and feel your pain if one of the game mechanics doesn't make you happy. Honestly.
Another thing I don't understand is this. Why do so many veterans (myself included) make the statement that SOE didn't listen to the player base?
I hit the forums everyday. There were thousands of voices all addressing each of their personal concerns. Different view points and different objectives and different goals. There was NO UNITY. No common objective. NONE. The player base offered SOE not one suggestion for the CU, but thousands (not counting duplicate ideas). There is just NO WAY SOE could have satisfied everyone.
Now, with that said, there are good things and bad things about the CU. For now it holds my interest and I'm happy its here. Are there problems? Yep. I hate the level system. HATE IT. Is there forced grouping? No, but you will do better in a group, but you can solo. Easily.
So, if you're interested give it a try, I recommend it. If not, well best of luck and I hope you find something that meets your needs.
Can you elaborate on what deeper issues I should have reported on? I would gladly comment on all of them to your satisfaction. I have many different opinions on various aspects of the combat upgrade, many of them unfavorable as you might have noticed in the article. I'm trying not to take any 'sides' but report it as I see it.
- m o n t h i g o s -
My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of MMORPG.com
[quote]Originally posted by Monthigos
Generally I find community relations to be unsatisfactory. I think the devs tend to alternate between listening to those who whine the loudest and not listening at all. I can't say I blame them though. Most players unconsciously ask for an easier game and get bored when they get it. In the past when they focused on a particual profession it tended to create very tipped FOTM profession, until they 'balanced' rifleman and then chose not to touch combat for a VERY long time.
[/b][/quote]
I think the reality here is that the gamers that tend to post in online forums and such tend to represent the vocal minority of most games. A vast majority of players never come online to post to message boards, attend chats, go to conventions or fan faires, etc. so developers and management are forced to guess as to what a majority of their player base really wants.
And face it, few people like change of any kind. I left SWG as a result of there not really being anything to do other than to go on silly console missions that were essentially killing rats in the sewers. I've thought about coming back to check things out again, but since SOE won't honor their All Access station pass, I won't be investigating the upgraded SWG any time soon....
Jim
What was "edited" out of your article before you posted it? Many of us would like to see what you had to cut. It hardly came off as objective, but then any post-structualist would tell you that being "completely" objective and unbiased is "essentially" impossible.
Also, you touched VERY lightly on the crafting and non-combat professions of SWG. SWG was never 100% about combat. A huge portion of the now cancelled playerbase were entertainers and artisians. What about them when the CU became "live" and practically ruined the playablity of many of them? Not everyone likes to fight. Combat indirectly influenced all non-combat professions, but those that played just so they could "create" something instead of "destroy" somethere are now alienated.
Another thing, you quoted the favorite phrase by Thunderheart yet if you went back to many, many of the posts and discussions from the devs concerning the "goals", "objects", and "improvements" that were promised during conception of the CU you would see that a fraction of these "promises" and "ideas" that much if not the vast majority of the playerbase agreed on were ever implimented. What happened to the "revamp" and "balancing" of the original "system" that many liked but agreed needed improvement and debugging? What motived SOE to "dumb down" and "simplify" to a "level" based system that steals the mudane and time-worn aspects from the leading popular MMOs today? Why did they be rid of what made SWG so unique and less "starwasy" with the "cutsey" new icons, animations, and what not? If you can answer these questions honestly then you are on your way to digging deeper into the real motivations that are driving the decisions made by the "suits" as some would call them.
I thought the author of the article did a great job in covering both Pro and Con of the CU.
unfortunately tho, I disagree with him.
I have been with SWG since 2 years before the game launched when it was nothing more than 3 forum boards and we spent all day discussing the future of the game. I logged in on game 2 of launch and watched as my childhood dreams of Star Wars were finally open to me.
I have watched as SOE has nerfed everything in the game from Creature handlers to Artisans to Weapons, theme parks and Yes, Newbie Melons. My love for Star Wars got me through all these as the nonexistent Jedi System was finally introduced six months after launch, to the past 12 months where every question asked to a dev was responded with the "The Combat Revamp will cover it." easy-out answer.
I was one of the MANY who thought we NEEDED a Combat Revamp and welcomed it. We hoped to have armor and buffs balanced. Class speaciels that had never worked since launch finally put in game. Classes like Ranger, Squad Leader and Smuggler finally get the revamps they deserved since half their skills were never in game to begin with.
We waited and watched and hoped.
I Beta'ed the CU when it went to TC3 last month. I sent in report after report and flooded the forums with my suggestions and fixes and bug reports. I did everything SOE wanted and more.
THEN they ticked me off. They launched the CU to LIVE servers weeks ahead of the scheduled May 5th upgrade and it was still riddled with Bugs. The SAME bugs I had reported back in TC3. Dallas Dickson said in another sites interview that they pushed the CU live cause they needed extra feedback on the bugged systems. So, basically SOE has FORCED ALL their players into PAYING to BETA Test SWG?
That is BS!
That was the straw that broke my Bantha's back, plus add in the fact that 80% of everything I had worked for the last 2 years was now turned upside down and most of it made useless with the new conversions of weapons, armor and items. That is it.
My subscription ends in June and I won't be coming back. Cancelled my ROTW pre-order and looking for a new game.
The anger most Vets of SWG feel today is that of betrayal cause SOE either didn't listen to us about the bugs or because they flagrantly took advantage of our patronage with the Beta testing on Live.
If you want to pay to beta test a game, SWG is for you.
If you want to build up a character for a year and then have the Devs come in and make all you worked for useless, then SWG is for you.
If you love Star Wars and want to live in the Star Wars universe, KOTOR is for you, not SWG.
Deal with it.
Rooks (the non-famous one)
Veteran of the Great Melon Nerf War of 03
Ranger is a lifestyle, not a Profession
Perhaps you missed my earlier post, or maybe simply chose to ignore it. Either way, you need to understand that simply because you do not agree does not mean it is wrong. I once again invite you to write an educated, intelligent and well-supported response if you truly find his editorial so offensive to your senses. Provided it meets the above criteria, I will give it equal visibility.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
[/quote]Lepidus wrote:
Perhaps you missed my earlier post, or maybe simply chose to ignore it. Either way, you need to understand that simply because you do not agree does not mean it is wrong. I once again invite you to write an educated, intelligent and well-supported response if you truly find his editorial so offensive to your senses. Provided it meets the above criteria, I will give it equal visibility.[/qoute]
Is my previous response above not intelligent enough for you? I have presented questions to Monthigos and every other individual that reads my post and I also displayed some view points that I felt were lacking. Monthigos does do a decently thorough job with the article but he was rarely asking any hard questions or seeking them out. He seemed to gloss over everything with an optimistic view, but need I point out that optimism isn't in many SWG player's vocabulary lately since they held onto that optimism everytime Thunderheart would say "that will be addressed in the combat revamp"?
That is my challenge to those that care to try it. Seek the harder questions and look for their answers. Too many people take things at face value rarely reading between the lines. Why do infomercials and politicians work so well in convincing people to believe them? Think about it.
And this caused me to just about split my sides laughing!! Dear God, dont we just wish that was the case for the editorials we write/broadcast.
Cheers!!
-===- -===-
DJ Cavalier -- Gamer Radio Initiative
-==-
Gamer Radio Initiative (www.gri-network.com) - Serious About Gaming
Just to be clear - I was not saying anything specific about your post (save the parts about it getting a tad personal). Rather, I was hoping someone with an opposite opinion would write something up in a more publishable form (IE: .doc via email that would make sense in isolation of this thread).
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Agreed mostly.
I left Galaxies because the game was absurdly out of balance, and the PVE was simply a joke in 99.9% of cases. The PVP was not all that great either, which for me is the end game and has to be good to keep me around.
Also in my mind, one should be nervous taking a hunting trip in Endor or Dath. Not be able to take a solo jaunt out there and waste rancors 2 and 3 at a time with your bars barely moving. And that was how the game WAS.
It certainly isn't anymore. lol Though for me it is no big deal, because I like grouping better anyway. No so for everyone, I understand that.
Even most of my rl friends that were still playing have left, especially the 3 Jedis that I PERSONALY knew.
I know I will get flamed, but this CU in my mind is exactly how it should be for Jedi at this point in the story line. You should have swarms of Bounty Hunters after you gain visability. It SHOULD be hard to grind. Jedi are supposed to be uber rare.
That said, what I do not hear is people sharing their experiances on how they have been SUCCESSFUL in the CU, and they are out there.
Thank you MMORPG.com for presently the other side the story.
Don't get me wrong. I completely understand that this is the biggest upgrade in mmorpg history. They cannot please everyone. And in revamping what was a terminaly broken system they had no choice but to radiacly alter weapons, armor, etc, in order to finally achieve that balance at least in my opinion.
Are there bugs? Yes.
Sucks items got nerfed so hard? Yes for those that had them, no for balance issues.
Does the level system need tweaking. HELL YES! And that tweaking can and should solve at least some of the Jedi problem grinding.
But I think that overall this will a very good system. Glad I came back, so far at least.
Just my 2 cents as an old vet coming back to see how the new system operated, and only been back a couple weeks at that. Please no flames. Just sharing my experiances and opinions.
the main problem with the CU is the damage multiplier system. It takes a game that was crafter based and makes it pointless. It also renders loot pointless. Case in point...
Im a lvl 50 combat player. I go attack a lvl 55 piket and die. I then go buy a ackley powerhammer thats been sliced at 35% max damage for millions of credits. I return to the lvl 55 piket and die again. I then seek out an armorsmith and have him make some ubber armor with nightsister shards and layors and yellow geo cubes. I also get the armor sliced for encumberances. Again I return to that lvl 55 piket and die. I then seek out a chef who makes the best food and drink on server. I return to the piket and die. I then spend 50 million credits on skil tapes to enhance my speed, accuracy, etc. Again I return to that lvl 55 piket and yep DIE AGAIN. Thanks to a damage multiplier system I have no chance to effect combat in any meaningful way. In essence, it doesnt matter how good or bad my armor is, I will always lose.
This is why players are upset. It makes all the effort for a player to get the best resources worthless. It makes all the effort to buy or loot 50 million worth of 12 point tapes useless.
All the loot hunters are out of a job. They have no point in hunting for loot anymore. Go see the trade forums, its quite sad. They used to be so very active, now completely dead as loot and crafted items are pretty much pointless.
Get rid of the damage multiplier system and CL for the most part. And apologize for miselading us and perhaps we'd return. Many are upset because we were told to live with the bugs and broken professions because fixes were on the way. We never asked for a new game, just fixes to the old one. So yeah we are upset and justified in our anger.
I disagree with the author , the CU ruined the game for and many in my guild which all left for Guild Wars. I loved SWG till the CU, now I will never play a SOE game ever again. I loved craftnig so much I had a Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, and Shipwright . Now I can be one hit by a nuna its ridiculou, at least before I had the chance of survial setting a harvester or factory. Now if a mob is by my harvester I cannot go and get resources from it. I was a avid crafter spent many hours crafting , and I even had a jedi which my little brother grinded for me.
Good luck to SOE cuz I think they going to need it, and if you like the CU thats great more power to you. If you dont like it well other games are out there and take away from SOE revenue .
Hello,
I am not gonna say I agree or disagree with your opinion of the CU. That is not what I am upset about. Generally my problems have been on several levels.
1. I am colorblind. I could play this game relatively well before the CU. Now I cannot very well because of the icons. (on a side note, you forgot to mention the HAM bars being red on red, blue on blue, and green on green. Guess how hard that is for me) SOE completely ignored anything any of us had to say. I had friends quit because they discriminated against me. Now, take that and imagine them telling people that SOE discriminates against people with disabilities. I sent a very informative email, no response. Posted the email in the boards, deleted.
2. SOE violated their own ELUA and TOS. Plain and simple. If I had enough money, I'd sue the crap out of them. Here are the reasons why.
3. Failure to listen to player base. This has been gone into at great length so I won't go there.
4. Not allowing at least a Refund or Change to a different SOE game. While EA did not have too, I'm sure you remember when EnB sunset, they offered a copy of either TSO or UO as compensation for the loss of EnB. While this would not have quieted all, it may have helped some people deal with it. Maybe even offered a special price for RotW to people who had SWG for a certain amount of time. But they offered nothing.
4. Lack of communication during testing. SOE said they fixed all the reported bugs. This was a lie, read the Dickinson interview. Some of the bugs still on live were reported in beta. They said it was the testing community's fault that the CU had to go live. Again another lie, a interview with someone from LA said they wanted it live now. Also keep in mind that this was not the CU that was alpha tested. Ask any alpha testers willing to talk (and there are some out there) they will tell you that much.
While the CU could be enjoyable to me, I find it too hard to play to be objective. All I can basically do is sit there and hope I don't die. As I am a Doc, I can't find a group because of the colorblind issue. They are afraid I might not see they are dying. How can I argue? They are correct, I can't tell very well. They may very well die.
So, I can't give an honest opinion about the CU itself, I can say that I don't like it because in it's current form, it breeds discrimination against people. And worst of all SOE does not care. Looks like I'll not only quit SOE games, but I won't be buying the PS3 or PSP either. I'll be giving the rest of my game budget to Microsoft. At least they don't hate people with disabilities. Just look at their company policies, one of the most liberal company policies in the world. SOE probably has one of the worst company policies in the world.
Being a subscriber to SWG for over 2 years I feel somewhat betrayed by SOE with the Combat Upgrade. The Combat Upgrade tells the casual player or the player with limited time that its not for them. The days of solo missions are over and SWG is now practically forcing people to be in groups to have any fun.
The Combat Upgrade takes the fun out of being a melee classes to include Teras Kasi, Fencer, Swordsman, Pikeman, and Jedi. The Combat Upgrade takes away what makes those skills fun.
In the Jedi class only those who have completed their Jedi Knight Trials like this Combat Upgrade. For new Jedi and those in process of earning skills it makes the 34 million Jedi needed nearly impossible to complete unless your playing the game 10 hours a day. In addition, the Combat Upgrade turned Jedi abilities into a mere shadow of what Jedi should be. A solo Master Commando should not be able to kill a Jedi Knight...
The only professions that are any fun are the ranged professions which have more skills than ever. You will never hear them having issues because this CU is everything them wanted.
Overall from the perspective of a SWG veteran this CU is a disaster. It took away the little fun I was still having. I have now cancelled my SWG account and have no remorse in it. One less person SOE will get money from.
I know my statements are highly opinionated, but to each their own. I've stuck with SOE through 2 years of headaches and mistakes. I've earned my right to have opinions.
-Former Intrepid Server member-
Hey Clint,
I am an old school galaxies player .. having beta'd the game and played it on and off since then. I came back to the game most recently a week before CU hit. My first reaction to CU was disbelief, anger, and a whole lot of confusion. It was a completly different game. As many people have pointed out the new system is strikingly similar to that hack job EQ2.. which in my eyes (as if the hack job comment didnt clarify this).. is a bad thing. And as a crafter/combat hybrid character my life went to heck ..fast. And that there would of been the death of Galaxies for me had it not been for my guild (SRA on Sunrunner ...wookiees rule!). They encouraged me to stick in there and started taking me along with them in groups. In CU the way it works now for those that dont know ...is everyone in the group is concidered the same level as the highest member. So even as a CL14 novice rifleman ..I could hold my own against even the toughest critters in the game as long as I was grouped with my CL80 friends. Well it didnt take long ..especially after the double xp week ..for me to stack on a few combat levels. I'm now nearly a master rifleman/ master tailor/ master artisan ... CL54(after some respecing of some useless skills like merchant into more useful ones) and once more have found my love for the game. The CU has actually made my guild alot tighter because we now group with each all the time instead of soloing constantly. So in the end ..I still dont know that it was a good thing or that the old system couldnt of been tweaked and kept ..but CU is NOT the death of galaxies ..and if people stick with it ...you may just find the game really really fun again.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
i use to play SWG i was doing a crafter only typ Armour/Weapons..and Ship Write but after the(not to be named shit) came out there was no way in hell to do my job i had no armour or weapons that i could use any more they say get Guild members to help you or hier others but no one is going to stand around for 3-5 hours as you check all the harvesters. They you still can solo **cough BULL SHIT cough** as a newb you do ok but unless some Vet player hooks you up with creds or items you are SO Freld and alot of the Vet players have left if you never played SWG befor(see above note) then it be a good game but us old players DO NOT like it and they say they listen to there players and give them what they want when nearly 2000 players say don't do this and you not listen the only thing they listen to are the people that pay them and to hell with the people that pay to play the game.
now SWGs seems more like EQ if i wanted to play EQ i would have. Now all i am is sad
that SWGs has been lost to try tobe like all other online games they had a good idea but a VERY bad way to do it.
I loved SWGs
Well thats my view on it and you may not agree but then agin you work for them so you have to say nice things i on the other had was paying them for a game and they seem to have for gotten the old saying...The customer is all ways right..cause they are the ones paying for it.
look i respect you're opinion but the cu ruined my game i loved to solo i play bad hours so what am i supposed to do when i cant get a group ill tell u die a hundred times i respeced from a master tk,fencer,shipwright to carabineer master and sure i could go solo it just took me ten minutes to kill one thing i really liked you're article you're a great writer who i hope has great success but please send me an email with why sony does not have customer service and why they have testcenter if their not going to listen to feedback and i would really like to know best guess on how many guys/gals quit
and like said my hats off to you for liking the cu but my game sucks now any suggestions on a new game?
Hi Monthigos,
nice article... good summary of the pros and cons. I would have liked some more words about the PvE level difference modifier causing all sorts of problems and the heavy handed forum moderation. Also about the Rage of the Wookiees expansion, even if that was not the focus of your editorial.
You hit upon a basic truth that every SWG player has to understand before he starts playing. SWG has not, is not and will never be the perfect game and has its problems, which IMHO comes from the way this project is managed and stuck in a tug of war between SOE, Lucasarts and its customers. More problems than in other games. Despite that SWG is STILL a darn good game ... especially because of the community playing this game. Good enough to have caused addiction in a great many people as you see mentioned in this and many other threads. Good enough IMHO to give you hours upon hours of great moments that help forget other bad experiences.
Those players that can accept this will enjoy this game. The others may be better off moving on to another game.
I can only shake my head about those posters that immediately accuse an author of taking money from a corp whenever the OPINION expressed in the article does not sit well with the posters own opinion. But they would never care to admit that theirs is not the OBJECTIVE UNALTERABLE FINAL TRUTH ... so the author has to be lying through his teeth while getting money stuffed into his underwear by President Smily of SOE.
Some will keep playing and have fun. Other dont enjoy the game anymore and will (should ?) move on.
Have fun
Erillion
After read this inspiring CU review, i said to myself, ok man just forget about all the frustration of the past last days and think positive, get a group and enjoy the CU, so i took a deep breath and logged in thinking that this gonna be last chance to reinstate my account, so i founded myself looking for ppl to group with, after 2 hours bouncing around from planet to planet, i found some guys to group with at the squill cave, but oh surprise, all the squills that used to be a dangerous creature for me now they are grey lvl for me, so i wasnt getting any xp,(but i got killed twice), so after i died the second time i decided to try something different and go solo for a while, i went to dantooine to get some missions, all the missions pay probably half what they used to pay, so i found myself hunting this yellow crits with my lvl 15 pet and no matter how i tied i was getting slained all the time, so after about 5 hours of frustration (again) i logged out thinking how this guys destroyed what it was a really original and fun game, so now im looking forward to try city of heroes, ill se you guys over there....
The CU brought good things which seriously needed to be fixed but it brough in additiong things with it AKA the LEVEL SYSTEM which were totally unnecessary.
In addition the way the player community was handled and the development process, skipping the closed aplha with the chose correspondents and players, the early push to live because they weren't getting enough feedback and issues reported on the test servers because they alienated A VERY LARGE base of players, thus ESSENTIALLY making THE LIVE SERVERs to BETA TESTING SERVERs was something that A LOT of PRO CU players feel very bad about ever having suported the CU.
In addition although they tried to dedicate different combat roles to each profession and overhauling all profession they broke the individual feel of most of the professions and some totally (especially non combat professions). And all they say is " we are working on -content- and -fixes- for it but give no outlook on what and all what is implemented is so far from what the community every supported/wanted/ suggested, that they could trash their whole forum in the first place.
As already mentioned the level system put over the current skill system doesnt mix at all.
As there is no real level based progress on any profession since craftes dont "level" at all and lvl 80 chars just "have more skill devoted to combat". This this is not a level but more skillpoint distribution.
To see the origin I quote a post from handsnake from the SOE forum, which was as well in the cu discussion temp forum as it is now in the core system forum:
Please take the time to read all of the points as well as the conclusions. Keep responses civil, please.
I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7.
There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.
The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.
Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.
This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.
Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.
1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.
The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.
The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.
Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.
Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.
This is the result of the 'level' system.
Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result.
This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.
The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.
A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.
The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.
This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.
2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.
The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?
XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.
It was never an issue at all.
However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.
In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.
The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it.
It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.
It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.
It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced.
The reason why it was is the kicker.
3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not.
This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.
So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.
This is a cheat.
The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.
It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.
XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons.
Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside.
Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE*
*(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)
So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the hell did they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"
Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats.
Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.
You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid.
You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.
These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.
Bam. Done.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
And WORTHLESS.
That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU.
Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor
You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use.
And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession.
You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.
It takes time which they claim they don't have.
The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window.
It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood.
Without it, the CU would work.
With it, SWG is dead.
Edit: Removed some colors and cleaned up some spacing.
Message Edited by Handsnake on 04-30-2005 11:27 AM
I cant say I liked the CU when it hit live, but the more I play the more it grows on me. I actually changed now from having 1 combat account and 2 non-combatant account to 2 combatants and only 1 crafter.
CU has lots of bugs, but I am gonna give the team this summer to get it right, then we will see...
My my, SWG CU appear to be their undoing , thousand are complaining and quitting and SOE apppears to only care for about 2 minutes then its back to their way or the highway attitude that SOE has mastered oh theses many years. I should thank them for game banning me for allenged forum misuse
( no other MMPOG does this). Now I have a 5 month headstart on playing WoW ( pally is 47 - and a whole barrel of alts) and Guild Wars ( you gotta respect the price compared to EQ2).
Folks ask me why I continue to ride SOE then and I should just be happy with the new games .
I say that would make it nice and easy for SOE that I would just disappear into the games - too bad , SOE didn't offer me any breaks ,why should I.
Love that Jestor - SOE doesn't
Unaware of the Jestor?
http://about.me/JestorRodo/
Friends enjoy his classic Vblog - https://www.facebook.com/GoodOldReliableNathan
I'd like to add my few cents.Frist off i don't love the cu,but it had to be done.Alot of problems before the cu where armor which got a major over haul.2nd they removed all the major buffs and mind buffs(hurray).3rd they made grouping more fun now and worth it, you get full xp and full cret's when you do mission's with a group.I made 2 million just last night with a group on dant.4th they blanced all races wich is a big snice wookiee's had it real bad before cu.5th they made classes have role's wow swg is now becoming a mmo(i bet most people in here are soloers, i bet 60% of all mmo would rather group then solo hench why its a mmo).So if your mad at soe for not listing to there player base i.e people on the fourms.Well they did examples are wookiees needed armor so they gave them armor they got alot of flak that woookiee never had armor.Here anthere one everyone whanted to know how to get jedi way back when,when they wouldnt tell people.But the people on the fourms bitch so much that they told you how and then they started to make a new system hench the start of the holo grind.I can go on how the old dev team listin to the people on the foums how you think the cu started.
Everyone on the fourms bitch so much about anthere class they had to nerf so many 1st it was pistol then commando then combat medic anyways
if you realy hate the cu and your going to play guild wars for a second just take a look at what gw has and what the new cu has for starwars ok gw you dont have to group but at the end game in pve you do,starwars you dont have to group but its better to group.In gw your class is muti role war/me war/mo same goes for swg tkm/doc rifle/cm.I see alot people saying o im going play gw or wow because swg is so sucking the fact is your going to waste time on anthere game that is the same thing now as swg.So if you spent a couple of day's respecing and you like to solo i'll help you out. I find the best classes to solo are tkm/doc or pikeman/doc.Yes there are alot of bug's, but it wouldn't be swg without bug's.They did alot of patching in the last week to blance mob lvl's.I havent seen any 200-400 lvl mobs any more and even in the nightsister cave the 2 bosses at the end are now 85 instead of 400.
SOE nerfed SWG to hell, and they ain't lookin' back.
Good. Because I just resubscribed after a 4 month hiatus, so it wont effect me much.