Global AH is way to go as it promotes market competition, allows establishing price levels and suppoorts trading.
No, no.
It promotes "market competition", which is undercutting untill stuff are worth less than nothing. Prices on AH games fluctuate FAR too often and too much, so there is never proper established prices.
Why is it that the WoW-generation wants so badly to de-socialize the entire MMORPG-genre (which has firstly always been about the socializing part)...
Originally posted by Fusion The final nail on the coffin!Couldnt've said it any better myself. Also, global AH's are notorious for ruining game economies (don't think i can recall a single AH game, where the economy isnt horseshit, due to it.) and it de-socializes the the entire trading / crafting part of the game.
Again, that has nothing to do with AH, game economies are crap because they are crap - with or without AH.
Vast majority of games are designed as loot based economies with no decay thus it is no wonder their economy do not work.
Removing AH makes anythng what is left of crafting just tedious and unpleasant to deal with.
It is the illusion of "player driven economy", they want to say that when you are trying to sell your item on auction house you are acting like an npc. it is to give the so called "old school" "hardcore" "intelligent" players the illusion that whatever crap they are doing have an impact on the game world. hang a carrot on a stick and donkey will follow it thinking "i am so smart, i am going to catch that carrot and eat it", same thing happening here in a different way.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Originally posted by FusionIt promotes "market competition", which is undercutting untill stuff are worth less than nothing. Prices on AH games fluctuate FAR too often and too much, so there is never proper established prices.
Make your pick. Prices are either undercutting or fluctuate, they can't do both.
Items do not become worthless because of AH but how the game is designed. The game is designed for stuff to become worthless since it is loot based economy where everyone is supposed to get their cake but they may never eat it, keeping it forever.
Abundance of loot, vertical progression and no decay. AH isn't a factor.
It promotes "market competition", which is undercutting untill stuff are worth less than nothing. Prices on AH games fluctuate FAR too often and too much, so there is never proper established prices.
Make your pick. Prices are either undercutting or fluctuate, they can't do both.
Items do not become worthless because of AH but how the game is designed. The game is designed for stuff to become worthless since it is loot based economy where everyone is supposed to get their cake but they may never eat it, keeping it forever.
Abundance of loot, vertical progression and no decay. AH isn't a factor.
Ok, i'll admit, decay or lack of is a big factor.
Having a pick.. i won't. What i meant was that some stuff get undercut til they're worthless (and stay forever henceforth worthless), some stuff fluctuate from 0-100 in a span of hours. And that does not help establish prices.
Stuff in the AH is always for there to see, which even more so promotes undercutting. When you have no auction where to see the prices constantly at your leisure, the prices stay more the same and are far less likely to even be undercut, you'll just get better deals on occasion.
People that say AH desocialize the game are naive, as if you interact with someone allot more without a AH.
You post your wares on a trade channel someone whispers you, you negotiate the price, you meet up to make the trade and go your marry way, without meeting that person ever again. Just because there are exceptions to the formula doesn't make it a standard.
People who make it out more then it will be, should drop the rose colored glasses.
Also, since allot of the trade will be made internally in the guild, how exactly do people expect to make some kind of profit from that? My guess the most you can expect is a 5-10% profit (probably even less, you could hope for a nice tip) margin on the mats, or you will be a greedy scum in the guild.
People will make 3rd party sites where they post the best regional prices (like in EVE), so people have a good overview of the market makeup, so most of the economy will be outsourced.
Originally posted by Abndn God forbid you'd have to interact with other human beings to trade in an MMORPG.
So if i join 5 guilds with 500 people a piece simply to do this every 30 seconds
/g "WTS EPIC SWORD OF AWESOME 30k PST"
Oh well now i feel enlightened, im so glad that i was able to experience such interaction.
It's certainly a step on the way towards making MMORPG's multiplayer games again.
Explain.
Everyone keep saying that, ive seen this similar statement several times but nobody has explained how having an auction house, means the game is no longer a multiplayer MMORPG anymore.
Do you feel close to the McDonalds employee just because you are greeted by their smile and a name tag with just their first name?
How about walmart, think you know all the staff like family because someone is there to greet you when you arrive through the giant sliding doors?
Do you think Amazon is a plague on society because i can buy any thing i want, any time i want, anywhere i want and never have to interact with another living soul besides the UPS driver?
What youre saying is silly.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Originally posted by jesteralways It is the illusion of "player driven economy", they want to say that when you are trying to sell your item on auction house you are acting like an npc. it is to give the so called "old school" "hardcore" "intelligent" players the illusion that whatever crap they are doing have an impact on the game world. hang a carrot on a stick and donkey will follow it thinking "i am so smart, i am going to catch that carrot and eat it", same thing happening here in a different way.
But it's much better to listen to the armchair economists calling for perfectly free markets as if that brings about better gameplay?
Economies without auction houses tend to be a lot more interesting if you ask me, PoE being a good modern example. Pretty sure it's no illusion that PoE has a player-driven economy.
It promotes "market competition", which is undercutting untill stuff are worth less than nothing. Prices on AH games fluctuate FAR too often and too much, so there is never proper established prices.
Make your pick. Prices are either undercutting or fluctuate, they can't do both.
Items do not become worthless because of AH but how the game is designed. The game is designed for stuff to become worthless since it is loot based economy where everyone is supposed to get their cake but they may never eat it, keeping it forever.
Abundance of loot, vertical progression and no decay. AH isn't a factor.
Quite correct.
If crafting was actually complex and difficult and only 5% of the players had the endurance to be crafters, then the presence of an AH would make little difference to the prices, because demand would far outstrip supply.
But because the majority of players demand "accessible crafting", the supply of produced goods far outstrips demand, resulting in a "race to the bottom" of prices whenever that mountain of crafted goods ends up on a single AH chasing the same pool of potential buyers.
That's why it often ends up with the ridiculous situation that it's actually MORE profitable to sell the raw materials than the crafted goods, because there's always a demand for grinding materials to level-up crafting skills, even if the goods produced by the leveled-up crafter are unsellable.
A global AH just makes the artificiality of the ingame "economy" glaringly obvious.
Originally posted by Abndn God forbid you'd have to interact with other human beings to trade in an MMORPG.
So if i join 5 guilds with 500 people a piece simply to do this every 30 seconds
/g "WTS EPIC SWORD OF AWESOME 30k PST"
Oh well now i feel enlightened, im so glad that i was able to experience such interaction.
It's certainly a step on the way towards making MMORPG's multiplayer games again.
Explain.
Everyone keep saying that, ive seen this similar statement several times but nobody has explained how having an auction house, means the game is no longer a multiplayer MMORPG anymore.
Do you feel close to the McDonalds employee just because you are greeted by their smile and a name tag with just their first name?
How about walmart, think you know all the staff like family because someone is there to greet you when you arrive through the giant sliding doors?
Do you think Amazon is a plague on society because i can buy any thing i want, any time i want, anywhere i want and never have to interact with another living soul besides the UPS driver?
What youre saying is silly.
Your McDonalds employee analogy is what's silly.
The idea here is that modern MMORPG's are less social experiences and lack strong communities because so much of the gameplay is impersonal. You buy your stuff on the AH, you group cross-server with people you'll never see again, you level up alone because soloing is encouraged when grouping isn't more rewarding. The list goes on.
When you trade in person in an MMORPG you are not dealing with a faceless employee, you're dealing with another player on your server that you'll likely come across again if you keep playing. You talk to each other, you haggle, you come to an agreement or you don't. You're interacting with another person in a meaningful way and in the end that's what multiplayer games are all about.
Thinking about this approach I realised it may add a worthwhile dimension to the game.
The way I perceive it is the specialist crafters will be found in area's where their supplies are readily available. You could adopt a town, or spot in the world, where you will often be with your line of items ready to sell. Players will get to know certain people, certain areas...adding a truly social level to the crafting system.
It's a good thing. You'll get name recognition if you're a quality crafter with the recipes people want. In early DAoC, everyone knew the legendary crafters, and seeing them out in the world was almost like seeing a celebrity.
You are speaking to a generation that does dailies, pvp, raids all without having to leave Orgrimmar for the entire duration of the time they are logged on. They will never understand the feeling you are describing
Originally posted by Abndn God forbid you'd have to interact with other human beings to trade in an MMORPG.
So if i join 5 guilds with 500 people a piece simply to do this every 30 seconds
/g "WTS EPIC SWORD OF AWESOME 30k PST"
Oh well now i feel enlightened, im so glad that i was able to experience such interaction.
It's certainly a step on the way towards making MMORPG's multiplayer games again.
Explain.
Everyone keep saying that, ive seen this similar statement several times but nobody has explained how having an auction house, means the game is no longer a multiplayer MMORPG anymore.
Do you feel close to the McDonalds employee just because you are greeted by their smile and a name tag with just their first name?
How about walmart, think you know all the staff like family because someone is there to greet you when you arrive through the giant sliding doors?
Do you think Amazon is a plague on society because i can buy any thing i want, any time i want, anywhere i want and never have to interact with another living soul besides the UPS driver?
What youre saying is silly.
Your McDonalds employee analogy is what's silly.
The idea here is that modern MMORPG's are less social experiences and lack strong communities because so much of the gameplay is impersonal. You buy your stuff on the AH, you group cross-server with people you'll never see again, you level up alone because soloing is encouraged when grouping isn't more rewarding. The list goes on.
When you trade in person in an MMORPG you are not dealing with a faceless employee, you're dealing with another player on your server that you'll likely come across again if you keep playing. You talk to each other, you haggle, you come to an agreement or you don't. You're interacting with another person in a meaningful way and in the end that's what multiplayer games are all about.
Originally posted by atuerstar Thinking about this approach I realised it may add a worthwhile dimension to the game. The way I perceive it is the specialist crafters will be found in area's where their supplies are readily available. You could adopt a town, or spot in the world, where you will often be with your line of items ready to sell. Players will get to know certain people, certain areas...adding a truly social level to the crafting system. Am I wrong in how Im seeing this?
That would be the preferred scenario but most often then not, things don't work out the way you think they will.
I for one really didn't like going shopping in Lineage 2, there where certain towns where people where opening shop and the amount of time i needed to waste for that particular item gave me quite the headache.
It's like the being in the supermarket, i wan't to go in and come out as fast as humanly possible but the good thing about supermarkets is, they are organized and i know where i need to get my stuff, so i can shove my time.
Thinking about this approach I realised it may add a worthwhile dimension to the game.
The way I perceive it is the specialist crafters will be found in area's where their supplies are readily available. You could adopt a town, or spot in the world, where you will often be with your line of items ready to sell. Players will get to know certain people, certain areas...adding a truly social level to the crafting system.
Am I wrong in how Im seeing this?
To a certain extent, yes.
The fact that players move through "level-appropriate" zones in alinear fashion means that it's very inconvenient for a crafter to "set-up shop" in a specific place. Which zone will he choose ?
Lower-level players cannot access higher level zones. High level players don't want to (and sometimes can't) travel back to low-level zones for their shopping.
In a sandbox game, zone levels are irrelevant, which is why I had a shop in the same place in old SWG for over 2 years.
If thats true, it would be the first negative point for me. I really really do enjoy auction houses and trading in mmorpgs.
I will definitely join a guild, BUT my problem is, that a lot of people don't join guilds and those people wont be able to use the auction house, right? Which means that you wont be able to make that much profit and the AH itself will be more static, with less transactions.
Thinking about this approach I realised it may add a worthwhile dimension to the game.
The way I perceive it is the specialist crafters will be found in area's where their supplies are readily available. You could adopt a town, or spot in the world, where you will often be with your line of items ready to sell. Players will get to know certain people, certain areas...adding a truly social level to the crafting system.
Am I wrong in how Im seeing this?
To a certain extent, yes.
The fact that players move through "level-appropriate" zones in alinear fashion means that it's very inconvenient for a crafter to "set-up shop" in a specific place. Which zone will he choose ?
Lower-level players cannot access higher level zones. High level players don't want to (and sometimes can't) travel back to low-level zones for their shopping.
In a sandbox game, zone levels are irrelevant, which is why I had a shop in the same place in old SWG for over 2 years.
I guess I just visualised it as being a form of social content for endgame. Trade caravans could always travel through low level zones, having a trade circuit they run.
It just seems the automatically socially exclusive functionality of an AH removes players from the world, stops them from becoming a part of the world. I always thought MMO's were supposed to be about becoming a part of that world, not sitting in some endgame city waiting for que's to pop.
I think if people gave such a socially dependant system a chance they may find their in game community becomes much more interesting and enjoyable. They wont even try if the AH is put in.
Originally posted by atuerstar Originally posted by SpottyGekkoOriginally posted by atuerstarThinking about this approach I realised it may add a worthwhile dimension to the game.The way I perceive it is the specialist crafters will be found in area's where their supplies are readily available. You could adopt a town, or spot in the world, where you will often be with your line of items ready to sell. Players will get to know certain people, certain areas...adding a truly social level to the crafting system.Am I wrong in how Im seeing this?
To a certain extent, yes.The fact that players move through "level-appropriate" zones in alinear fashion means that it's very inconvenient for a crafter to "set-up shop" in a specific place. Which zone will he choose ?Lower-level players cannot access higher level zones. High level players don't want to (and sometimes can't) travel back to low-level zones for their shopping.In a sandbox game, zone levels are irrelevant, which is why I had a shop in the same place in old SWG for over 2 years.I guess I just visualised it as being a form of social content for endgame. Trade caravans could always travel through low level zones, having a trade circuit they run.
It just seems the automatically socially exclusive functionality of an AH removes players from the world, stops them from becoming a part of the world. I always thought MMO's were supposed to be about becoming a part of that world, not sitting in some endgame city waiting for que's to pop.
I think if people gave such a socially dependant system a chance they may find their in game community becomes much more interesting and enjoyable. They wont even try if the AH is put in.
What? Please stop making the AH look like it's the biggest scourge of MMO's, i still can't composure myself when you said all those beautiful cheesy things about being part of the world!
Originally posted by atuerstar I guess I just visualised it as being a form of social content for endgame. Trade caravans could always travel through low level zones, having a trade circuit they run. It just seems the automatically socially exclusive functionality of an AH removes players from the world, stops them from becoming a part of the world. I always thought MMO's were supposed to be about becoming a part of that world, not sitting in some endgame city waiting for que's to pop. I think if people gave such a socially dependant system a chance they may find their in game community becomes much more interesting and enjoyable. They wont even try if the AH is put in.
Rose tinted glasses. Were people 200 years ago more social than we are today in era of eshops?
I do love that they're unwilling to make the tradeoffs required when you implement some of these convenience features. In the end, everyone who wants to will be able to buy and sell items. It may not be done as easily as clicking a button, too fucking bad.
Originally posted by sketocafe I do love that they're unwilling to make the tradeoffs required when you implement some of these convenience features. In the end, everyone who wants to will be able to buy and sell items. It may not be done as easily as clicking a button, too fucking bad.
Guild auction houses will be open to public in Cyrodiil so you do not need to retort to spaming chat(I also hoped those days are over).
I like the idea of simple fact that it may provide meaningful, world affecting benefits to guild war system. It would be very awesome if guilds in Cyrodiil could open up their AH and compete between each other even on economical level.
I think there is one thing you have forgotten. This will give the guildleaders control over the quality of the items being sold. So there will be good trading guilds and bad ones.
By trading with guildies or by whisper will build a stronger connection/relation between players.
I will be a crafter, and as a crafter I like the idea of being closer to the customer! I like the idea of having repeat customers that are happy with the items I sell them.
I will take my time finding the right guilds to join, maybe even start my own. It would be nice to be part of a crafter guild that trades crafting materials and favors between eachother. Maybe I even join a smaller guild with an exlusive clientell where deep pockets and highend is the keywords :P
As a crafter I will probably have a good idea what items go for and for those who don't trust would be a nice thing to lean back on. I will value my relations and not loose it by overpricing or try to trick someone in to buying crap
All and all, an AH is not very social in which an MMO should be all about. My fondest and strongest memories of all the MMOs I have played are about the people I played with, almost everything else is mostly a blur.
Comments
No, no.
It promotes "market competition", which is undercutting untill stuff are worth less than nothing. Prices on AH games fluctuate FAR too often and too much, so there is never proper established prices.
Why is it that the WoW-generation wants so badly to de-socialize the entire MMORPG-genre (which has firstly always been about the socializing part)...
Again, that has nothing to do with AH, game economies are crap because they are crap - with or without AH.
Vast majority of games are designed as loot based economies with no decay thus it is no wonder their economy do not work.
Removing AH makes anythng what is left of crafting just tedious and unpleasant to deal with.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Make your pick. Prices are either undercutting or fluctuate, they can't do both.
Items do not become worthless because of AH but how the game is designed. The game is designed for stuff to become worthless since it is loot based economy where everyone is supposed to get their cake but they may never eat it, keeping it forever.
Abundance of loot, vertical progression and no decay. AH isn't a factor.
Ok, i'll admit, decay or lack of is a big factor.
Having a pick.. i won't. What i meant was that some stuff get undercut til they're worthless (and stay forever henceforth worthless), some stuff fluctuate from 0-100 in a span of hours. And that does not help establish prices.
Stuff in the AH is always for there to see, which even more so promotes undercutting. When you have no auction where to see the prices constantly at your leisure, the prices stay more the same and are far less likely to even be undercut, you'll just get better deals on occasion.
People that say AH desocialize the game are naive, as if you interact with someone allot more without a AH.
You post your wares on a trade channel someone whispers you, you negotiate the price, you meet up to make the trade and go your marry way, without meeting that person ever again. Just because there are exceptions to the formula doesn't make it a standard.
People who make it out more then it will be, should drop the rose colored glasses.
Also, since allot of the trade will be made internally in the guild, how exactly do people expect to make some kind of profit from that? My guess the most you can expect is a 5-10% profit (probably even less, you could hope for a nice tip) margin on the mats, or you will be a greedy scum in the guild.
People will make 3rd party sites where they post the best regional prices (like in EVE), so people have a good overview of the market makeup, so most of the economy will be outsourced.
It's certainly a step on the way towards making MMORPG's multiplayer games again.
Explain.
Everyone keep saying that, ive seen this similar statement several times but nobody has explained how having an auction house, means the game is no longer a multiplayer MMORPG anymore.
Do you feel close to the McDonalds employee just because you are greeted by their smile and a name tag with just their first name?
How about walmart, think you know all the staff like family because someone is there to greet you when you arrive through the giant sliding doors?
Do you think Amazon is a plague on society because i can buy any thing i want, any time i want, anywhere i want and never have to interact with another living soul besides the UPS driver?
What youre saying is silly.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
But it's much better to listen to the armchair economists calling for perfectly free markets as if that brings about better gameplay?
Economies without auction houses tend to be a lot more interesting if you ask me, PoE being a good modern example. Pretty sure it's no illusion that PoE has a player-driven economy.
Quite correct.
If crafting was actually complex and difficult and only 5% of the players had the endurance to be crafters, then the presence of an AH would make little difference to the prices, because demand would far outstrip supply.
But because the majority of players demand "accessible crafting", the supply of produced goods far outstrips demand, resulting in a "race to the bottom" of prices whenever that mountain of crafted goods ends up on a single AH chasing the same pool of potential buyers.
That's why it often ends up with the ridiculous situation that it's actually MORE profitable to sell the raw materials than the crafted goods, because there's always a demand for grinding materials to level-up crafting skills, even if the goods produced by the leveled-up crafter are unsellable.
A global AH just makes the artificiality of the ingame "economy" glaringly obvious.
Your McDonalds employee analogy is what's silly.
The idea here is that modern MMORPG's are less social experiences and lack strong communities because so much of the gameplay is impersonal. You buy your stuff on the AH, you group cross-server with people you'll never see again, you level up alone because soloing is encouraged when grouping isn't more rewarding. The list goes on.
When you trade in person in an MMORPG you are not dealing with a faceless employee, you're dealing with another player on your server that you'll likely come across again if you keep playing. You talk to each other, you haggle, you come to an agreement or you don't. You're interacting with another person in a meaningful way and in the end that's what multiplayer games are all about.
Thinking about this approach I realised it may add a worthwhile dimension to the game.
The way I perceive it is the specialist crafters will be found in area's where their supplies are readily available. You could adopt a town, or spot in the world, where you will often be with your line of items ready to sell. Players will get to know certain people, certain areas...adding a truly social level to the crafting system.
Am I wrong in how Im seeing this?
sad but true story
amen bro
That would be the preferred scenario but most often then not, things don't work out the way you think they will.
I for one really didn't like going shopping in Lineage 2, there where certain towns where people where opening shop and the amount of time i needed to waste for that particular item gave me quite the headache.
It's like the being in the supermarket, i wan't to go in and come out as fast as humanly possible but the good thing about supermarkets is, they are organized and i know where i need to get my stuff, so i can shove my time.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
To a certain extent, yes.
The fact that players move through "level-appropriate" zones in alinear fashion means that it's very inconvenient for a crafter to "set-up shop" in a specific place. Which zone will he choose ?
Lower-level players cannot access higher level zones. High level players don't want to (and sometimes can't) travel back to low-level zones for their shopping.
In a sandbox game, zone levels are irrelevant, which is why I had a shop in the same place in old SWG for over 2 years.
If thats true, it would be the first negative point for me. I really really do enjoy auction houses and trading in mmorpgs.
I will definitely join a guild, BUT my problem is, that a lot of people don't join guilds and those people wont be able to use the auction house, right? Which means that you wont be able to make that much profit and the AH itself will be more static, with less transactions.
That is only factor.
The "undercutting" isn't happening because of AH but because of oversupply.
I guess I just visualised it as being a form of social content for endgame. Trade caravans could always travel through low level zones, having a trade circuit they run.
It just seems the automatically socially exclusive functionality of an AH removes players from the world, stops them from becoming a part of the world. I always thought MMO's were supposed to be about becoming a part of that world, not sitting in some endgame city waiting for que's to pop.
I think if people gave such a socially dependant system a chance they may find their in game community becomes much more interesting and enjoyable. They wont even try if the AH is put in.
I guess I just visualised it as being a form of social content for endgame. Trade caravans could always travel through low level zones, having a trade circuit they run.
It just seems the automatically socially exclusive functionality of an AH removes players from the world, stops them from becoming a part of the world. I always thought MMO's were supposed to be about becoming a part of that world, not sitting in some endgame city waiting for que's to pop.
I think if people gave such a socially dependant system a chance they may find their in game community becomes much more interesting and enjoyable. They wont even try if the AH is put in.
What? Please stop making the AH look like it's the biggest scourge of MMO's, i still can't composure myself when you said all those beautiful cheesy things about being part of the world!
LOL.
Rose tinted glasses. Were people 200 years ago more social than we are today in era of eshops?
Guild auction houses will be open to public in Cyrodiil so you do not need to retort to spaming chat(I also hoped those days are over).
I like the idea of simple fact that it may provide meaningful, world affecting benefits to guild war system. It would be very awesome if guilds in Cyrodiil could open up their AH and compete between each other even on economical level.
I think there is one thing you have forgotten. This will give the guildleaders control over the quality of the items being sold. So there will be good trading guilds and bad ones.
By trading with guildies or by whisper will build a stronger connection/relation between players.
I will be a crafter, and as a crafter I like the idea of being closer to the customer! I like the idea of having repeat customers that are happy with the items I sell them.
I will take my time finding the right guilds to join, maybe even start my own. It would be nice to be part of a crafter guild that trades crafting materials and favors between eachother. Maybe I even join a smaller guild with an exlusive clientell where deep pockets and highend is the keywords :P
As a crafter I will probably have a good idea what items go for and for those who don't trust would be a nice thing to lean back on. I will value my relations and not loose it by overpricing or try to trick someone in to buying crap
All and all, an AH is not very social in which an MMO should be all about. My fondest and strongest memories of all the MMOs I have played are about the people I played with, almost everything else is mostly a blur.