Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
How do you know the advantages are small?
Because they can only use the info that ZoS allows them to and I've seen a lot of them in action and they don't really give much of an advantage they just give you more info on screen.
If I'm honest a lot of them I won't use (scrolling combat text) or I will disable a lot of the features (cast bar) because I find the way the game shows me that same info to be more reliable and allows me to look at the action rather than a UI element, but I certainly wouldn't want to deny those that do like the clutter from having it if they choose.
You have to remember these addons that supposedly "show too much info" etc still require you to be targeting an enemy for it to "show you too much" and that alone makes the perceived advantages situational at best
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't have an argument. Let it go.
The devs also built the ui with addons in mind, as they announced lua support back in 2012 (month after it was announced) pretty much the exact same time as they officially announced the game
You're right - they did. And you know what? I can't change that. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is what the thread asked a question about:
"Will add-ons kill this game?"
Answer 1: If you're looking for an authentic TES MMO that can provide a different MMO than you're used to.... Yes, it will. If you're looking for just another POS MMO that comes out once every few months - you're probably trying to justify add-ons in the first place.
Answer 2: It will no longer be a TES game once these elements come into play - for reasons already stated. It will be just another MMO. And that's the worst kind of MMO to be if you're trying to provide an MMO game service that hopes to support itself off of a subscription model.
Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.
Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.
Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information. It's a solid black and white conflict of interest. You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal. Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous. Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.
Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid. They've already done so with the lack of collision detection. I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it. All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.
You still don't have an argument. There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage. There is simply nothing you can say that changes that. It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back. Arguing against it is just stupid.
Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't. Pick a side and stay there. When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems. But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case. And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.
I guess here is my take on this. No I do not want mods personally as I think everyone should be on the same playing field. However due to the sheer amount of people that DO want mods, then I can get over it and move on.
Sure I will have to install them / find the best ones for my situation and class.
Having played a lot of two games that are on two different ends of the spectrum, WoW (So many mods) and Runescape (No mobs due to not being possible...or at least it wasn't when I played it.) I guess I don't really mind either way.
I guess we should just be thankful that there is not AS much to mod as there is in something like WoW (or maybe there is more and I'm blind) but the UI and mechanics already placed work pretty well.
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't have an argument. Let it go.
The devs also built the ui with addons in mind, as they announced lua support back in 2012 (month after it was announced) pretty much the exact same time as they officially announced the game
You're right - they did. And you know what? I can't change that. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is what the thread asked a question about:
"Will add-ons kill this game?"
Answer 1: If you're looking for an authentic TES MMO that can provide a different MMO than you're used to.... Yes, it will. If you're looking for just another POS MMO that comes out once every few months - you're probably trying to justify add-ons in the first place.
Answer 2: It will no longer be a TES game once these elements come into play - for reasons already stated. It will be just another MMO. And that's the worst kind of MMO to be if you're trying to provide an MMO game service that hopes to support itself off of a subscription model.
Have you played an ES game that wasn't moddable?
Have you ever played an ES game that didn't allow for a nude/sex mod complete with animations and scripting commands?
I have... it's called The Elder Scrolls Online.
What do you know? Zenimax broke away from the normal ES expectation already!
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't have an argument. Let it go.
The devs also built the ui with addons in mind, as they announced lua support back in 2012 (month after it was announced) pretty much the exact same time as they officially announced the game
You're right - they did. And you know what? I can't change that. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is what the thread asked a question about:
"Will add-ons kill this game?"
Answer 1: If you're looking for an authentic TES MMO that can provide a different MMO than you're used to.... Yes, it will. If you're looking for just another POS MMO that comes out once every few months - you're probably trying to justify add-ons in the first place.
Answer 2: It will no longer be a TES game once these elements come into play - for reasons already stated. It will be just another MMO. And that's the worst kind of MMO to be if you're trying to provide an MMO game service that hopes to support itself off of a subscription model.
Have you played an ES game that wasn't moddable?
Have you ever played an ES game that didn't allow for a nude/sex mod complete with animations and scripting commands?
I have... it's called The Elder Scrolls Online.
What do you know? Zenimax broke away from the normal ES expectation already!
Give it time. Nude mods will come.
With that said, your tone is not very pleasant. A bit to condescending for my taste.
I guess here is my take on this. No I do not want mods personally as I think everyone should be on the same playing field. However due to the sheer amount of people that DO want mods, then I can get over it and move on.
Sure I will have to install them / find the best ones for my situation and class.
Having played a lot of two games that are on two different ends of the spectrum, WoW (So many mods) and Runescape (No mobs due to not being possible...or at least it wasn't when I played it.) I guess I don't really mind either way.
I guess we should just be thankful that there is not AS much to mod as there is in something like WoW (or maybe there is more and I'm blind) but the UI and mechanics already placed work pretty well.
I sympathize with what you're saying. However, there is no clear "there are more people that want mods than not." If the truth were known... it's probably half and half. Really - who knows? But that isn't the point.
The point is - you don't have to be the one that "can get over it and move on." Turn that attitude onto them. They'll get mad, and they'll throw everything at you - but anger is the bastion of those without solid reason.
If you don't stand up for reason... then no one will. You already know why you don't want mods - and that is the correct reason to not want them. It is correct by virtue of the fact that it's the ONLY reason. It is a lonely reason... but it is right.
Mods that let you monitor buffs and debuffs on your toon are a cool option.
Mods that tell you damage/healing you are receiving or dealing are a cool option (the players who try to police how others play due to this are the issue, not the option, imo).
Mods that allow you to see what other players are casting are not so cool.
The fourth one are the mods that will likely become almost a necessity in pvp (particularly when you and your target are actively engaging one another), or you just forego any powers with casting times to avoid it. It is a relatively minor issue, but it does give an advantage to those who use it over those who do not, especially at range where it is harder to see the visuals that would otherwise indicate what the player is doing.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't have an argument. Let it go.
The devs also built the ui with addons in mind, as they announced lua support back in 2012 (month after it was announced) pretty much the exact same time as they officially announced the game
You're right - they did. And you know what? I can't change that. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is what the thread asked a question about:
"Will add-ons kill this game?"
Answer 1: If you're looking for an authentic TES MMO that can provide a different MMO than you're used to.... Yes, it will. If you're looking for just another POS MMO that comes out once every few months - you're probably trying to justify add-ons in the first place.
Answer 2: It will no longer be a TES game once these elements come into play - for reasons already stated. It will be just another MMO. And that's the worst kind of MMO to be if you're trying to provide an MMO game service that hopes to support itself off of a subscription model.
Have you played an ES game that wasn't moddable?
Have you ever played an ES game that didn't allow for a nude/sex mod complete with animations and scripting commands?
I have... it's called The Elder Scrolls Online.
What do you know? Zenimax broke away from the normal ES expectation already!
Give it time. Nude mods will come.
With that said, your tone is not very pleasant. A bit to condescending for my taste.
Okay... well let me put it this way:
Have you ever played a game of Poker where you got to see your opponents' hand every round, but they didn't get to see yours? That's what this whole discussion is analogous to. It's ridiculous.
You throwing in "What ES game isn't moddable?" as another pointless justification is just as ridiculous. I didn't mean to be condescending... but frankly man... I get tired of doing all the thinking for you guys.
Here is a direct quote from a programmer at a major ESO site discussing being able to access the api info referring to the "exact" pvp mod that has been mentioned here.
Out of respect I will not link this site or poster but it is not that hard to find.
" As a seasoned macro dev , I can tell you that if you give me info on a enemy player via api or even a graphic, I can hotspot that graphic and auto fire skills when needed. As it stands now I have totally owned because of this and sent videos to Z to help them see the need to tone back the enemy data that is exposed."
Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.
Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.
Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information. It's a solid black and white conflict of interest. You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal. Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous. Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.
Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid. They've already done so with the lack of collision detection. I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it. All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.
You still don't have an argument. There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage. There is simply nothing you can say that changes that. It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back. Arguing against it is just stupid.
Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't. Pick a side and stay there. When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems. But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case. And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.
I love the way you use phrases like "a clear black and white advantage" When in reality the advantage is negligible and situational, and in a game where there are going to built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale.
And you are right that the UI should have all this stuff built in as options, but as they don't they will NEED addons because the base UI is far too limited for a lot of players. It doesn't matter if you are OK with limitations that can gimp certain abilities/builds, or basic info like player stamina/magika levels, or even a basic combat log, there are many that those things are an issue for. If you haven't built these tools in game for launch you better make sure you allow the fans to fill those gaps (much like they do in all the single player tes games and other successful mmos) because as SWTOR has shown players wont wait around for you to do add it down the line
Here is a direct quote from a programmer at a major ESO site discussing being able to access the api info referring to the "exact" pvp mod that has been mentioned here.
Out of respect I will not link this site or poster but it is not that hard to find.
" As a seasoned macro dev , I can tell you that if you give me info on a enemy player via api or even a graphic, I can hotspot that graphic and auto fire skills when needed. As it stands now I have totally owned because of this and sent videos to Z to help them see the need to tone back the enemy data that is exposed."
Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.
Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.
Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information. It's a solid black and white conflict of interest. You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal. Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous. Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.
Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid. They've already done so with the lack of collision detection. I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it. All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.
You still don't have an argument. There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage. There is simply nothing you can say that changes that. It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back. Arguing against it is just stupid.
Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't. Pick a side and stay there. When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems. But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case. And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.
I love the way you use phrases like "a clear black and white advantage" When in reality the advantage is negligible and situational, and in a game where there are going to built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale.
And you are right that the UI should have all this stuff built in as options, but as they don't they will NEED addons because the base UI is far too limited for a lot of players. It doesn't matter if you are OK with limitations that can gimp certain abilities/builds, or basic info like player stamina/magika levels, or even a basic combat log, there are many that those things are an issue for. If you haven't built these tools in game for launch you better make sure you allow the fans to fill those gaps (much like they do in all the single player tes games and other successful mmos) because as SWTOR has shown players wont wait around for you to do add it down the line
Since you believe that the advantages are negligible... then it won't matter if they aren't in the game. Since they don't do anything for you anyway... then there is no harm if they just weren't in the game to begin with, and didn't give you the option to add them. Which leads me back to my original point:
Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.
Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.
Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information. It's a solid black and white conflict of interest. You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal. Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous. Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.
Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid. They've already done so with the lack of collision detection. I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it. All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.
You still don't have an argument. There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage. There is simply nothing you can say that changes that. It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back. Arguing against it is just stupid.
Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't. Pick a side and stay there. When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems. But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case. And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.
I love the way you use phrases like "a clear black and white advantage" When in reality the advantage is negligible and situational, and in a game where there are going to built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale.
And you are right that the UI should have all this stuff built in as options, but as they don't they will NEED addons because the base UI is far too limited for a lot of players. It doesn't matter if you are OK with limitations that can gimp certain abilities/builds, or basic info like player stamina/magika levels, or even a basic combat log, there are many that those things are an issue for. If you haven't built these tools in game for launch you better make sure you allow the fans to fill those gaps (much like they do in all the single player tes games and other successful mmos) because as SWTOR has shown players wont wait around for you to do add it down the line
Since you believe that the advantages are negligible... then it won't matter if they aren't in the game. Since they don't do anything for you anyway... then there is no harm if they just weren't in the game to begin with, and didn't give you the option to add them. Which leads me back to my original point:
well tbh the game is killing its self with its what lack of features and sub-par game-play and its no end game having self but if theres anything left after all that blows the player base from the game then yea i would say add-ons prob will.
Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.
Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.
Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information. It's a solid black and white conflict of interest. You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal. Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous. Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.
Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid. They've already done so with the lack of collision detection. I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it. All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.
You still don't have an argument. There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage. There is simply nothing you can say that changes that. It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back. Arguing against it is just stupid.
Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't. Pick a side and stay there. When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems. But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case. And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.
I love the way you use phrases like "a clear black and white advantage" When in reality the advantage is negligible and situational, and in a game where there are going to built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale.
And you are right that the UI should have all this stuff built in as options, but as they don't they will NEED addons because the base UI is far too limited for a lot of players. It doesn't matter if you are OK with limitations that can gimp certain abilities/builds, or basic info like player stamina/magika levels, or even a basic combat log, there are many that those things are an issue for. If you haven't built these tools in game for launch you better make sure you allow the fans to fill those gaps (much like they do in all the single player tes games and other successful mmos) because as SWTOR has shown players wont wait around for you to do add it down the line
Since you believe that the advantages are negligible... then it won't matter if they aren't in the game. Since they don't do anything for you anyway... then there is no harm if they just weren't in the game to begin with, and didn't give you the option to add them. Which leads me back to my original point:
You don't need them.
<---the point '
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<------your head
Just went sailing right over there didn't it?
I didn't know you could draw.
I must have missed your point because I was too busy making mine. I apologize. How rude of me. Explain to me again why you need a "negligible" advantage in this game.
I must have missed your point because I was too busy making mine. I apologize. How rude of me. Explain to me again why you need a "negligible" advantage in this game.
Imagine that by wearing a top hat you would increase the chances of being hired at a job interview by 3%. Negligible?
True 3% is negligible but in a competitive environment (i.e. when you are pit against others, there is one winner, or a ranking of sort), if you are not going for these 3% you are an idiot.
Is it clear enough for you?
(as for the "built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale", this is just a bad argument since "built in advantages/disadvantages + 3%" is still superior to "built in advantages/disadvantages + 0%")
I must have missed your point because I was too busy making mine. I apologize. How rude of me. Explain to me again why you need a "negligible" advantage in this game.
Imagine that by wearing a top hat you would increase the chances of being hired at a job interview by 3%. Negligible?
True 3% is negligible but in a competitive environment (i.e. when you are pit against others, there is one winner, or a ranking of sort), if you are not going for these 3% you are an idiot.
Is it clear enough for you?
It was clear all along. I don't think it's clear to YOU.
YOU obviously have a hard time neglecting or disregarding that 3%. By definition... it isn't actually "negligible" to you at all. We all KNOW why you want that information. We've been saying it since the first page. You guys act like we don't understand WHY you want that information. But we know all too well why you want it. You want it... because it isn't negligible.
Our whole argument is based on the premise that this sort of information on-screen will make you play the UI and not the game. It will give you a clear advantage in the game, by your own admittance, and by definition that it IS NOT NEGLIGIBLE by virtue of the fact that YOU cannot disregard it.
You guys are hopelessly lost in this. It's like I'm arguing with Gollum in LOTR - you're so blinded by your desire that you can't see reason.
YOU obviously have a hard time neglecting or disregarding that 3%. By definition... it isn't actually "negligible" to you at all. We all KNOW why you want that information. We've been saying it since the first page. You guys act like we don't understand WHY you want that information. But we know all too well why you want it. You want it... because it isn't negligible.
Actually I don't want that information, unless it is provided as a standard/option in the original game UI for everyone. So we agree, great.
YOU obviously have a hard time neglecting or disregarding that 3%. By definition... it isn't actually "negligible" to you at all. We all KNOW why you want that information. We've been saying it since the first page. You guys act like we don't understand WHY you want that information. But we know all too well why you want it. You want it... because it isn't negligible.
Actually I don't want that information, unless it is provided as a standard/option in the original game UI for everyone. So we agree, great.
What do you think I've been saying all this time?
If it's in the game as part of the stock UI - okay.
If it isn't part of the stock UI - okay.
It'll work either way. And nothing "what's his face" brings up about SWTOR not having it at launch (as if SWTOR's failure had nothing to do with the million other things that were messed up about it) will change this fact. Just pick a side of the fence, and stick to it.
All I'm saying is you can't add it as a mod. You can't have mod support like this in an MMO. It's a conflict of interest any way you try to slice it. Which leads me to my original answer to the question of this thread:
It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people who won't try to enjoy something because it's different are lazy.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
Comments
Because they can only use the info that ZoS allows them to and I've seen a lot of them in action and they don't really give much of an advantage they just give you more info on screen.
If I'm honest a lot of them I won't use (scrolling combat text) or I will disable a lot of the features (cast bar) because I find the way the game shows me that same info to be more reliable and allows me to look at the action rather than a UI element, but I certainly wouldn't want to deny those that do like the clutter from having it if they choose.
You have to remember these addons that supposedly "show too much info" etc still require you to be targeting an enemy for it to "show you too much" and that alone makes the perceived advantages situational at best
Have you played an ES game that wasn't moddable?
Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.
Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.
Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information. It's a solid black and white conflict of interest. You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal. Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous. Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.
Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid. They've already done so with the lack of collision detection. I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it. All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.
You still don't have an argument. There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage. There is simply nothing you can say that changes that. It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back. Arguing against it is just stupid.
Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't. Pick a side and stay there. When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems. But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case. And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.
I guess here is my take on this. No I do not want mods personally as I think everyone should be on the same playing field. However due to the sheer amount of people that DO want mods, then I can get over it and move on.
Sure I will have to install them / find the best ones for my situation and class.
Having played a lot of two games that are on two different ends of the spectrum, WoW (So many mods) and Runescape (No mobs due to not being possible...or at least it wasn't when I played it.) I guess I don't really mind either way.
I guess we should just be thankful that there is not AS much to mod as there is in something like WoW (or maybe there is more and I'm blind) but the UI and mechanics already placed work pretty well.
Have you ever played an ES game that didn't allow for a nude/sex mod complete with animations and scripting commands?
I have... it's called The Elder Scrolls Online.
What do you know? Zenimax broke away from the normal ES expectation already!
Give it time. Nude mods will come.
With that said, your tone is not very pleasant. A bit to condescending for my taste.
I sympathize with what you're saying. However, there is no clear "there are more people that want mods than not." If the truth were known... it's probably half and half. Really - who knows? But that isn't the point.
The point is - you don't have to be the one that "can get over it and move on." Turn that attitude onto them. They'll get mad, and they'll throw everything at you - but anger is the bastion of those without solid reason.
If you don't stand up for reason... then no one will. You already know why you don't want mods - and that is the correct reason to not want them. It is correct by virtue of the fact that it's the ONLY reason. It is a lonely reason... but it is right.
The following is my opinion:
Mods that change the UI around are a cool option.
Mods that let you monitor buffs and debuffs on your toon are a cool option.
Mods that tell you damage/healing you are receiving or dealing are a cool option (the players who try to police how others play due to this are the issue, not the option, imo).
Mods that allow you to see what other players are casting are not so cool.
The fourth one are the mods that will likely become almost a necessity in pvp (particularly when you and your target are actively engaging one another), or you just forego any powers with casting times to avoid it. It is a relatively minor issue, but it does give an advantage to those who use it over those who do not, especially at range where it is harder to see the visuals that would otherwise indicate what the player is doing.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Okay... well let me put it this way:
Have you ever played a game of Poker where you got to see your opponents' hand every round, but they didn't get to see yours? That's what this whole discussion is analogous to. It's ridiculous.
You throwing in "What ES game isn't moddable?" as another pointless justification is just as ridiculous. I didn't mean to be condescending... but frankly man... I get tired of doing all the thinking for you guys.
Here is a direct quote from a programmer at a major ESO site discussing being able to access the api info referring to the "exact" pvp mod that has been mentioned here.
Out of respect I will not link this site or poster but it is not that hard to find.
" As a seasoned macro dev , I can tell you that if you give me info on a enemy player via api or even a graphic, I can hotspot that graphic and auto fire skills when needed. As it stands now I have totally owned because of this and sent videos to Z to help them see the need to tone back the enemy data that is exposed."
How do you feel about that pvp ui mod now?
Life IS Feudal
I love the way you use phrases like "a clear black and white advantage" When in reality the advantage is negligible and situational, and in a game where there are going to built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale.
And you are right that the UI should have all this stuff built in as options, but as they don't they will NEED addons because the base UI is far too limited for a lot of players. It doesn't matter if you are OK with limitations that can gimp certain abilities/builds, or basic info like player stamina/magika levels, or even a basic combat log, there are many that those things are an issue for. If you haven't built these tools in game for launch you better make sure you allow the fans to fill those gaps (much like they do in all the single player tes games and other successful mmos) because as SWTOR has shown players wont wait around for you to do add it down the line
And you think things like that won't be policed?
Since you believe that the advantages are negligible... then it won't matter if they aren't in the game. Since they don't do anything for you anyway... then there is no harm if they just weren't in the game to begin with, and didn't give you the option to add them. Which leads me back to my original point:
You don't need them.
<---the point
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'
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'
<------your head
Just went sailing right over there didn't it?
Witty & Wicked
I didn't know you could draw.
I must have missed your point because I was too busy making mine. I apologize. How rude of me. Explain to me again why you need a "negligible" advantage in this game.
Imagine that by wearing a top hat you would increase the chances of being hired at a job interview by 3%. Negligible?
True 3% is negligible but in a competitive environment (i.e. when you are pit against others, there is one winner, or a ranking of sort), if you are not going for these 3% you are an idiot.
Is it clear enough for you?
(as for the "built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale", this is just a bad argument since "built in advantages/disadvantages + 3%" is still superior to "built in advantages/disadvantages + 0%")
It was clear all along. I don't think it's clear to YOU.
neg·li·gi·ble
[neg-li-juh-buh
l] Show IPA
adjective
Actually I don't want that information, unless it is provided as a standard/option in the original game UI for everyone. So we agree, great.
What do you think I've been saying all this time?
If it's in the game as part of the stock UI - okay.
If it isn't part of the stock UI - okay.
It'll work either way. And nothing "what's his face" brings up about SWTOR not having it at launch (as if SWTOR's failure had nothing to do with the million other things that were messed up about it) will change this fact. Just pick a side of the fence, and stick to it.
All I'm saying is you can't add it as a mod. You can't have mod support like this in an MMO. It's a conflict of interest any way you try to slice it. Which leads me to my original answer to the question of this thread:
"Will ADD-ONS kill this game?"
Yes. It will.
"But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
It's been my experience that people who won't try to enjoy something because it's different are lazy.
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.