i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Ghern Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...
i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...the game as been developed with an API open for modding.the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurt
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...
I didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that is off-topic.
i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurt
My feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Ghern Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...
I didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that jis off-topic.
The devs hAve picked a side... They developed the game they wanted and also opened up the API for players to customize the game the way they want... Also your misinformed just like u tell me I haven't justified the need for them, you haven't justified not needing them just given opinions why you think they are required... My opinion is that they are fine to have and that's all the justification I require for my opinion... Just like your opinion is that your opinion... The games want to give players the option that is their prerogative
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...the game as been developed with an API open for modding.the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurt
My feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...
I didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that jis off-topic.
The devs hAve picked a side... They developed the game they wanted and also opened up the API for players to customize the game the way they want... Also your misinformed just like u tell me I haven't justified the need for them, you haven't justified not needing them just given opinions why you think they are required... My opinion is that they are fine to have and that's all the justification I require for my opinion... Just like your opinion is that your opinion... The games want to give players the option that is their prerogative
Alright dude... It's obvious that this victory is of super importance to you. So I'm going to let you have it and bow out. I can't have a discussion with someone who isn't trying to understand what I am saying, and I'm tired of trying.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Ghern Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...
I didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that jis off-topic.
The devs hAve picked a side... They developed the game they wanted and also opened up the API for players to customize the game the way they want... Also your misinformed just like u tell me I haven't justified the need for them, you haven't justified not needing them just given opinions why you think they are required... My opinion is that they are fine to have and that's all the justification I require for my opinion... Just like your opinion is that your opinion... The games want to give players the option that is their prerogative
Alright dude... It's obvious that this victory is of super importance to you. So I'm going to let you have it and bow out. I can't have a discussion with someone who isn't trying to understand what I am saying, and I'm tired of trying.
Enjoy the game.
you mean like you fail to see my points which are also my opinions... Apparently the devs agree with me though because they opened up the AI for add-ons.
i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurt
My feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
Your opinion nothing more
It's not an opinion. It's a fact of life. When you straddle the fence on which way to go - you're going to lose.
Originally posted by Keylogger_007 It's been my experience that those who complain over DPS meters and the like are also the kind of people who will squeak by at the bottom of the barrel performance wise. I suppose complaining on a forum, or in a chat channel is more productive to one's personal gain than actually putting forth effort into your group role, let alone actually learning to play your chosen class and character. "But MOOOM, they'll know I'm AFK autoattacking "
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...
I didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that jis off-topic.
The devs hAve picked a side... They developed the game they wanted and also opened up the API for players to customize the game the way they want... Also your misinformed just like u tell me I haven't justified the need for them, you haven't justified not needing them just given opinions why you think they are required... My opinion is that they are fine to have and that's all the justification I require for my opinion... Just like your opinion is that your opinion... The games want to give players the option that is their prerogative
Alright dude... It's obvious that this victory is of super importance to you. So I'm going to let you have it and bow out. I can't have a discussion with someone who isn't trying to understand what I am saying, and I'm tired of trying.
Enjoy the game.
you mean like you fail to see my points which are also my opinions... Apparently the devs agree with me though because they opened up the AI for add-ons.
Okay. Good. The glory is yours to have. Bask in it.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by mbrodie i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...the game as been developed with an API open for modding.the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurt
My feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
Your opinion nothing more
It's not an opinion. It's a fact of life. When you straddle the fence on which way to go - you're going to lose.
Co to that link. It'll take you 1 minute.
Tell that to every other mmo released over the past 10 years that are still running and supported add-ons... Your logic is flawed like I said the vocal minority of players that don't want add-ons are always outnumbered buy the people who really don't care... The past has proven that...
Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.
From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.
If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.
I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)
Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.
Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour
Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!
My problem with this here is, how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Currently seeing some of the addons already created for this game it worries me a lot for the future of the PvP. The game hasn't even released yet and there will be a disadvantage for those who don't use some of these add-ons right away. Shame if Zenimax doesn't do anything about this.
i honestly think the only point here is, just because the minority is vocal doesnt mean it's the majority, the majority is the people who dont need to keyboard warrior and arent phased by addons either way...
the game as been developed with an API open for modding.
the devs have stated mods will be made available for development for the game.
any mods the devs seem unfair will be blocked.
addons dont kill games, the only people who really whine about it are those who arent competitive enough to get into groups or anything because they get blocked by combat parsers etc... why else would you have a problem with it unless you're scared it'll be used against you.
i personally like having combat parsers, i like to minmax my character and combat parse myself against dummies / other players so i know im remaining competitive and playing my class correctly.
just because you dont like addons doesnt make them game breaking, thats a massive over dramatization.
the easy solution is, if you dont like addons and you dont like the fact the game has addons, dont play.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurt
My feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
Your opinion nothing more
It's not an opinion. It's a fact of life. When you straddle the fence on which way to go - you're going to lose.
Co to that link. It'll take you 1 minute.
Tell that to every other mmo released over the past 10 years that are still running and supported add-ons... Your logic is flawed like I said the vocal minority of players that don't want add-ons are always outnumbered buy the people who really don't care... The past has proven that...
People have become overly spoiled with addons and mods.They also like to point fingers and say the developers should add all of this to the base UI. Plenty of MMOs get along fine without them and pretty much all single player titles lack such features.
To me it looks like many players are just looking for an advantage over those around them. They want to see things others don't see. They want to be able to gauge every detail about other players character at a glance so they can pass judgement. They want to take shortcuts.
Hopefully there is a happy middle ground somewhere... because no player should be forced to keep up with dozens of mods/addon and yes you are forced. WOW progressed to the point where you would be denied entry into groups without certain addons, you would be crippled in pvp without certain addons. You would be gauged by your gear due to addons.
This is not the way any quality MMO should function.
I find it funny when people say 'dozens' of addon's In wow, a hardcore raider doing heroic content would use 2 for raiding. the other mods would be for UI if they so desired.
Raiding mods in wow that most raid leaders wanted for a dps was DBM and a parser ex: recount.
that's it. just those two. That is far from dozens.
A lot of the other popular mods but by no means mandatory for heroic progression was healbot, unit frames like xpearl and shadoweduf. The threat mods like omen are not used anymore as there's no threat issues at all for tanks. The Dozens of mods someone may have maybe for modified UI. Like bagnon for their inventory (not needed in raiding), or one of many auction house mods.
2 mods .... the rest is fluff not needed. I myself used the two mods, recount and dbm for raiding. I did have other mods, but those were just for UI reasons like bartender and quartz and bagnon. Not used for killing anything.
2 mods....
Love how people keep saying dozens. You aren't the only one, but you and others like you sure love stretching the truth to suit your agenda.
Originally posted by deakon Originally posted by Jyiiga Originally posted by deakon
Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.
From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.
If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.
I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)
Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.
Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour
Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!
My problem with this here is, how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"
Ramifications are also your opinion, the truth is in a pve environment band together with other likeminded people who don't mind using unoptimised specs and don't use combat parsers etc.... Play the game your way no one is forcing you to play with players who want to use add-ons.
In PvP yeah I could see a potential issue, but what it matter if you have to install one add-on that essentially replaces your target frame to give you extra info... It's not gonna clutter your ui, if everyone has it anyway it's not a huge advantage and if you don't wanna use it you just gonna have to accept that people will.
At the end of the day that poll sidenote people are in favor regardless of circumstance, players want it, some don't, devs put it in, add-ons are already developed so there must be a demand for it so live with it or don't play
Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.
From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.
If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.
I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)
Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.
Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour
Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!
My problem with this here is, how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"
This is what I want to know as well. This is the problem with a democratic process: the majority isn't always right, and they usually have some loose justifications.
The majority is also the people who usually leave the game after the first month.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by deakon Originally posted by Jyiiga Originally posted by deakon
Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.
From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.
If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.
I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)
Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.
Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour
Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!
My problem with this here is, how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"
This is what I want to know as well. This is the problem with a democratic process: the majority isn't always right, and they usually have some loose justifications.
The majority is also the people who usually leave the game after the first month.
So even when the numbers aren't in your favor that means the majority is wrong, but when there is so many threads against it that's right... You can't have it both ways and by those numbers it shows that more people are in favor our dont care about add-ons... Maybe it's just time to realise that it's how it's gonna be
I didn't say the majority was wrong. I said they weren't always right, and they usually have loose justifications.
Stop trolling. Take your bad attitude somewhere else.
Don't accuse Me of trolling or having a bad attitude just because I have a different opinion to you... That could be considered having a bad attitude n also I don't appreciate being called a troll because my opinion differs to yours...
Also again trying to misuse semantics... Saying "I said they're not always right" is exact the same as you saying the majority is wrong... Because they don't agree with you... Are those people who votes on the poll also trolls n have a bad attitude because they too disagree with you?
Comments
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurtI didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that is off-topic.
My feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...I didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that jis off-topic.
The devs hAve picked a side... They developed the game they wanted and also opened up the API for players to customize the game the way they want... Also your misinformed just like u tell me I haven't justified the need for them, you haven't justified not needing them just given opinions why you think they are required... My opinion is that they are fine to have and that's all the justification I require for my opinion... Just like your opinion is that your opinion... The games want to give players the option that is their prerogativeHere's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurtMy feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
Your opinion nothing moreAlright dude... It's obvious that this victory is of super importance to you. So I'm going to let you have it and bow out. I can't have a discussion with someone who isn't trying to understand what I am saying, and I'm tired of trying.
Enjoy the game.
It's been my experience that people that rely so heavily on dps meters only care about their dps. They forget about such things as moving out of the bad stuff to help healers or maybe throw an interrupt out so it helps with incoming damage.
See how that works?
apparently your experience is playing with terrible players... good / smart players, use combat parsers as a point of reference and dont spend a whole fight watching it, they also know when mechanics are happening and can move, but not only that but competitition on the meters can be good to keep people pushing themselves and their characters to get the most out of it.
i have no problem with healthy competition amongst friends, addons are fine.
I hear what you're saying. But history has shown that this simply isn't the case.
All it does is separate the player base and creates an uneven competitive field. You can't have a fair competitive game if the field is already uneven.
In football, do they allow for one team to know the other teams offense or defense? No. Why? Because it would be an uneven advantage.
Your observation of what makes a "good" player and a "bad" player are irrelevant. They are judgement calls based on opinion.
There simply is no argument that makes good on "add-ons".
Either make it so... or not. Pick a side and leave it.
well not really, a good player performs well, knows his class, knows fight mechanics and doesnt fail horribly holding a raid group of 19 other people back... you can play on semantics all you want, but at the end of the day a good player can do those things.. an excellent player does all that and more... a bad player refuses to play his class to it's potential or utility needs because they feel they shouldnt have too and wouldnt have too if addons werent involved.
You can do all of this without DPS meters and Gearscore and all that other garbage. We used to do it all the time prior to WoW and its add-ons.
Sorry but even Everquest had combat parsers... Again players used them To minmax Jesus you could even get combat parser add-ons for mud clients for text based muds...I didn't say it didn't.
You still haven't justified needing them. If the game is designed to not need them... then you don't need them. It's really that simple.
Here's an idea - find a new way to min-max. Try different approaches of what works and doesn't work organically - by actually playing the game and not number crunching.
There is more than one way to skin this cat. All I'm saying is pick a side and stick with it. If you're going to allow it in the game... then just build it into the game. If you don't want to design it into the game... then leave it alone. Either way, add-ons aren't going to make the game better.
You're really sort of arguing something that jis off-topic.
The devs hAve picked a side... They developed the game they wanted and also opened up the API for players to customize the game the way they want... Also your misinformed just like u tell me I haven't justified the need for them, you haven't justified not needing them just given opinions why you think they are required... My opinion is that they are fine to have and that's all the justification I require for my opinion... Just like your opinion is that your opinion... The games want to give players the option that is their prerogativeAlright dude... It's obvious that this victory is of super importance to you. So I'm going to let you have it and bow out. I can't have a discussion with someone who isn't trying to understand what I am saying, and I'm tired of trying.
Enjoy the game.
you mean like you fail to see my points which are also my opinions... Apparently the devs agree with me though because they opened up the AI for add-ons.It's not an opinion. It's a fact of life. When you straddle the fence on which way to go - you're going to lose.
Co to that link. It'll take you 1 minute.
Okay. Good. The glory is yours to have. Bask in it.
Enjoy the game.
Here's one reason:
I don't want my guild leader to come to me one day and tell me I have to respec to a specific build if I want to continue playing with the guild. And this is exactly what will happen. We know this, because we've seen it happen time and time again.
Nothing about that has anything to do with "I'm afraid others will use it against me."
While it is obvious that I don't have to play... it was obvious that people who wanted collision detection didn't have to play. Well... obviously that got changed. You can get mad all you want... but it's not going to change anything I have said or anything anyone else has said in opposition to add-ons. Zenimax will clearly change the game if enough people talk about it.
It's already started. All we have to do now, is lean. So... when the day comes that you can't have DPS meters and Gear Score and the like... you're welcome to not play it just the same.
thats ridiculous there is numerous reasons you could be told to respec... it could be a matter of your spec being unviable for raid, you might not have enough HP in it, you might not have required utility.. or maybe just maybe it is a problem of performance... and if you're last on the meters marginally that your raid leader considers it a problem, during complex raid encounters that have enrage timers and everyone running a specific build will give just enough % to get it over the line...
then stop being lazy, learn to play your class, suck it up and be a good soldier, if you want to raid you need to be competitive and use builds that are good for exactly that raiding... and there is going to be raid viable builds, due to classes needing to handle mechanics and needing certain abilities and all the bells and whistles, if that is really that much of a problem for you... raiding isnt your scene.
You need to slow your roll, and reread what you and I have both written.
You asked why else would we be against these sorts of add-ons if not out of fear of it being used against us.
I responded with a simple reason why I am against it - because I don't want someone telling me to respec based on information they don't need.
You responded with... every reason why a guild leader would ask someone to respec if they had access to the information I said I am against.
No... little soldier. You don't need DPS meters and Gearscore to come to the conclusion that one might need more crowd control abilities or an extra heal power. You can learn this information by simply adjusting to the game as needed.
I like how you ignore rage timers... And I haven't once said anything about gearscore not to mention that most games these days have an inbuilt version of gearscore even older games... Hit caps are basically gear score needing a certain amount of hit to hit the target etc... That aside add-ons are in sorry your feelings a hurtMy feelings aren't hurt. Your's obviously are. I'm sorry that your argument is not making a point strong enough to change my mind about this.
We aren't talking about any specific thing here. We're talking about anything that could potentially be brought into the game via add-on. Whether you want to admit it or not - having half the community using a different UI, and forcing the other half to use it, is not a good thing. There is nothing you're going to say that will make it right. I'm sorry.
You need to stay on topic and stop with this childish tantrum non-sense you're having. We're not debating whether or not these elements are useful in the game. We're debating whether or not add-ons will change the game. Somehow, I've allowed myself to fall into the usual trap of people like you going way off-topic to prove a point you're obviously passionate about.
I'll say it one last time.
1. You don't need that stuff.
2. If you're going to allow it into the game - okay. Make it stock UI and leave it alone.
3. If you're not going to allow it because you want to design a game where the player spends less time looking at the UI and more time in the game - okay. Make it stock and leave it alone.
4. Whichever way you go... leave it alone and don't allow add-ons.
Your arguments about what I am saying is pretty much irrelevant.
Your opinion nothing moreIt's not an opinion. It's a fact of life. When you straddle the fence on which way to go - you're going to lose.
Co to that link. It'll take you 1 minute.
Tell that to every other mmo released over the past 10 years that are still running and supported add-ons... Your logic is flawed like I said the vocal minority of players that don't want add-ons are always outnumbered buy the people who really don't care... The past has proven that...My problem with this here is, how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Okay - have fun with the game.
I find it funny when people say 'dozens' of addon's In wow, a hardcore raider doing heroic content would use 2 for raiding. the other mods would be for UI if they so desired.
Raiding mods in wow that most raid leaders wanted for a dps was DBM and a parser ex: recount.
that's it. just those two. That is far from dozens.
A lot of the other popular mods but by no means mandatory for heroic progression was healbot, unit frames like xpearl and shadoweduf. The threat mods like omen are not used anymore as there's no threat issues at all for tanks. The Dozens of mods someone may have maybe for modified UI. Like bagnon for their inventory (not needed in raiding), or one of many auction house mods.
2 mods .... the rest is fluff not needed. I myself used the two mods, recount and dbm for raiding. I did have other mods, but those were just for UI reasons like bartender and quartz and bagnon. Not used for killing anything.
2 mods....
Love how people keep saying dozens. You aren't the only one, but you and others like you sure love stretching the truth to suit your agenda.
From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.
If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.
I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)
Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.
Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour
Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!
My problem with this here is, how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"
Ramifications are also your opinion, the truth is in a pve environment band together with other likeminded people who don't mind using unoptimised specs and don't use combat parsers etc.... Play the game your way no one is forcing you to play with players who want to use add-ons.In PvP yeah I could see a potential issue, but what it matter if you have to install one add-on that essentially replaces your target frame to give you extra info... It's not gonna clutter your ui, if everyone has it anyway it's not a huge advantage and if you don't wanna use it you just gonna have to accept that people will.
At the end of the day that poll sidenote people are in favor regardless of circumstance, players want it, some don't, devs put it in, add-ons are already developed so there must be a demand for it so live with it or don't play
This is what I want to know as well. This is the problem with a democratic process: the majority isn't always right, and they usually have some loose justifications.
The majority is also the people who usually leave the game after the first month.
From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.
If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.
I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)
Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.
Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour
Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!
My problem with this here is, how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"
This is what I want to know as well. This is the problem with a democratic process: the majority isn't always right, and they usually have some loose justifications.
The majority is also the people who usually leave the game after the first month.
So even when the numbers aren't in your favor that means the majority is wrong, but when there is so many threads against it that's right... You can't have it both ways and by those numbers it shows that more people are in favor our dont care about add-ons... Maybe it's just time to realise that it's how it's gonna beI didn't say the majority was wrong. I said they weren't always right, and they usually have loose justifications.
Stop trolling. Take your bad attitude somewhere else.
Don't accuse Me of trolling or having a bad attitude just because I have a different opinion to you... That could be considered having a bad attitude n also I don't appreciate being called a troll because my opinion differs to yours...Also again trying to misuse semantics... Saying "I said they're not always right" is exact the same as you saying the majority is wrong... Because they don't agree with you... Are those people who votes on the poll also trolls n have a bad attitude because they too disagree with you?