Like narius said, they are essentially two different games. The difference in the two metagames is too drastic for them to work well with one another. The main problem is that AI controlled monsters do not act the same way or often don't even use the same abilities as players do. Therefore, characters opted for PvE are at a gross disadvantage when pitted against PvP specialized builds. It is the old wolves hunting the sheep, which is not fun for either parties.
I don't think there's an easy way to mix PvE and PvP, but the first thing I would do is to bring those metagames closer together. Ideally, if all builds and tactics were equally viable in both PvE and PvE, you would have the classic problem of wolves hunting the sheep.
Likely this would mean improving the AI and abolishing the aggro-based trinity combat which many are still fond of.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Jemcrystal PvE'ers complain about their classes' stats vs. another classes' stats SOOOOOO MUCH they get the devs to change and gimp and alter until those of us who PvP can't kill a level 1 enemy. PvE is like a invasive virus designed to make everyone forget PvP exists. The quality of the PvP world drops with all the devs running crazy to fix everything for the PvE'ers.
This statement is as true as the one you made. Games are balanced around PvE way more often than they ever have around PvP and usually the PvE players still try to blame it on PvP when the changes were more about the raid game 99% of the time.
Originally posted by Cephus404 You miss the point. People don't want to be targets at all. They do not want to be involved in ganking at all. They do not want to have to watch their backs at all. Just because there is some system in place to punish people who gank down the line doesn't change the fact that people had to get ganked in the first place for them to get to that point.
Ganking sucks. People hate it. That's the point.
This is fine as long as you realize you are talking about some people and not all people. I cannot have fun long term in a PvE game if I'm not watching my back for PvP. PvE is just too simplistic and boring for me to last in that state. I don't want PvP where I have clear cut enemies either. I want a much more realistic fantasy world where I am unclear of who the enemy is and I find out by interacting with them.
PvP server on a PvE game is all I really need though. It is painfully easy to make them work together if the devs want to, they just need to make it optional.
Originally posted by Cephus404 You miss the point. People don't want to be targets at all. They do not want to be involved in ganking at all. They do not want to have to watch their backs at all. Just because there is some system in place to punish people who gank down the line doesn't change the fact that people had to get ganked in the first place for them to get to that point.
Ganking sucks. People hate it. That's the point.
This is fine as long as you realize you are talking about some people and not all people. I cannot have fun long term in a PvE game if I'm not watching my back for PvP. PvE is just too simplistic and boring for me to last in that state. I don't want PvP where I have clear cut enemies either. I want a much more realistic fantasy world where I am unclear of who the enemy is and I find out by interacting with them.
PvP server on a PvE game is all I really need though. It is painfully easy to make them work together if the devs want to, they just need to make it optional.
I think you have to take into account that PvE isn't very challenging, but can be if it is designed that way. In Everquest you had to watch your back because even a normal mob could take you down if you were sitting recovering your health or in the middle of a fight. It's not like today where you can take a few mobs at a time and your health recovers instantly after a fight. There were also nasty mobs wandering around with large agro radius that would one or two shot you.
Originally posted by Cephus404 You miss the point. People don't want to be targets at all. They do not want to be involved in ganking at all. They do not want to have to watch their backs at all. Just because there is some system in place to punish people who gank down the line doesn't change the fact that people had to get ganked in the first place for them to get to that point.
Ganking sucks. People hate it. That's the point.
This is fine as long as you realize you are talking about some people and not all people. I cannot have fun long term in a PvE game if I'm not watching my back for PvP. PvE is just too simplistic and boring for me to last in that state. I don't want PvP where I have clear cut enemies either. I want a much more realistic fantasy world where I am unclear of who the enemy is and I find out by interacting with them.
PvP server on a PvE game is all I really need though. It is painfully easy to make them work together if the devs want to, they just need to make it optional.
I think you have to take into account that PvE isn't very challenging, but can be if it is designed that way. In Everquest you had to watch your back because even a normal mob could take you down if you were sitting recovering your health or in the middle of a fight. It's not like today where you can take a few mobs at a time and your health recovers instantly after a fight. There were also nasty mobs wandering around with large agro radius that would one or two shot you.
It mainly depends on what you find "challenging". I tend to approach games as puzzles to be be solved and if it becomes too random, it stops being a puzzle. Always needing to watch your back seems like a very childish thing to put into a game (I had a stressfull childhood) and I prefer more intellectual challenges rather thanht "actiony" challenges that PvP brings out in those games.
UO did this with PK'ers. If you where red you couldn't go into towns or have people rez you unless they were red too.
There are systems that would allow for people who do PK to have consequences for their actions.
Bingo, at least in my perspective. That takes the fun out of slaughtering noobs.
It adds an element to the PvP game that PvP players enjoy. It will not turn the PvP game into something that the PvE players enjoy. Different games, different goals. The PvE players simply don't want the PvP element. It doesn't matter what rule system you put in place. Unless the PvP is optional, it will not work (for the PvE players).
**
It's relevant to note that UO's ultimate solution was to create a new server with a PvE rule set, separate from the PvP rule set server. That's what worked. UO's PvP rule set system resulted in something that PvP players enjoyed, not PvE players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.
worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)
that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.
But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.
ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.
How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?
from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see
I've been playing the games for over ten years, including WoW. I have seen many things, but PvE players on PvP servers complaining about PvP is not one of them. I've never seen the PvP player complaining about the PvE content on PvE servers either. Not even here, where all the complainers end up. What I have seen, repeatedly, are people who say that PvP players complain about PvE servers and people who say that PvE players complain about PvP servers. But the actual players never show up. The one other thing I've seen are people who want a PvE version of a PvP game, like Darkfall or a FFA PvP version of a primarily PvE game like WoW.
But the PvE/PvP player complaining about the opposite mechanics, when other options are available? Never. They are like Bigfoot. People say they've seen them, but they never actually appear.
i've seen it loads of times especially in WoW and in swtor. even seen some hilarious complaints like "just because i'm on a pvp server does'nt mean i should have to pvp"
Again, people say they've seen them. They never seem to actually show up here though. Every person who complains about something ends up here. We get drama from more or less every game that's running. Those people never seem to show up here or in these discussions.
Bigfoot.
**
They might exist, but they are heavily outnumbered by the people who say they've seen them and the people who say they exist.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.
worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)
that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.
But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.
ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.
How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?
from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see
I've been playing the games for over ten years, including WoW. I have seen many things, but PvE players on PvP servers complaining about PvP is not one of them. I've never seen the PvP player complaining about the PvE content on PvE servers either. Not even here, where all the complainers end up. What I have seen, repeatedly, are people who say that PvP players complain about PvE servers and people who say that PvE players complain about PvP servers. But the actual players never show up. The one other thing I've seen are people who want a PvE version of a PvP game, like Darkfall or a FFA PvP version of a primarily PvE game like WoW.
But the PvE/PvP player complaining about the opposite mechanics, when other options are available? Never. They are like Bigfoot. People say they've seen them, but they never actually appear.
i've seen it loads of times especially in WoW and in swtor. even seen some hilarious complaints like "just because i'm on a pvp server does'nt mean i should have to pvp"
Again, people say they've seen them. They never seem to actually show up here though. Every person who complains about something ends up here. We get drama from more or less every game that's running. Those people never seem to show up here or in these discussions.
Bigfoot.
**
They might exist, but they are heavily outnumbered by the people who say they've seen them and the people who say they exist.
You're both right in you're own ways. The complaints on pvp servers are about level cap'd players sneezing at lowbies while they level up and one shoting them. That has never been nor will be pvp. Rarely do I see someone complain that pvp is occurring between people within their own level range. Why? Because the former is griefing and the latter is pvp.
I don't go out and fry a bunch of ants with a magnifying glass and then beat my chest and proclaim I'm a great "warrior." That would be asinine. The same is true about people who grief lowbies and call it "pvp."
this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.
worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)
that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.
But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.
ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.
How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?
from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see
I've been playing the games for over ten years, including WoW. I have seen many things, but PvE players on PvP servers complaining about PvP is not one of them. I've never seen the PvP player complaining about the PvE content on PvE servers either. Not even here, where all the complainers end up. What I have seen, repeatedly, are people who say that PvP players complain about PvE servers and people who say that PvE players complain about PvP servers. But the actual players never show up. The one other thing I've seen are people who want a PvE version of a PvP game, like Darkfall or a FFA PvP version of a primarily PvE game like WoW.
But the PvE/PvP player complaining about the opposite mechanics, when other options are available? Never. They are like Bigfoot. People say they've seen them, but they never actually appear.
i've seen it loads of times especially in WoW and in swtor. even seen some hilarious complaints like "just because i'm on a pvp server does'nt mean i should have to pvp"
Again, people say they've seen them. They never seem to actually show up here though. Every person who complains about something ends up here. We get drama from more or less every game that's running. Those people never seem to show up here or in these discussions.
Bigfoot.
**
They might exist, but they are heavily outnumbered by the people who say they've seen them and the people who say they exist.
You're both right in you're own ways. The complaints on pvp servers are about level cap'd players sneezing at lowbies while they level up and one shoting them. That has never been nor will be pvp. Rarely do I see someone complain that pvp is occurring between people within their own level range. Why? Because the former is griefing and the latter is pvp.
I don't go out and fry a bunch of ants with a magnifying glass and then beat my chest and proclaim I'm a great "warrior." That would be asinine. The same is true about people who grief lowbies and call it "pvp."
Well, I could definitely see that. The low level players just have no chance at all. They aren't going to learn anything, other than what it's like to be killed in game. It's not like Chess where you get beaten and can maybe learn something from it. The complaints would be a waste of time, but I could see people complaining about that, whether they wanted to ultimately PvE or PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You're both right in you're own ways. The complaints on pvp servers are about level cap'd players sneezing at lowbies while they level up and one shoting them. That has never been nor will be pvp. Rarely do I see someone complain that pvp is occurring between people within their own level range. Why? Because the former is griefing and the latter is pvp.
I don't go out and fry a bunch of ants with a magnifying glass and then beat my chest and proclaim I'm a great "warrior." That would be asinine. The same is true about people who grief lowbies and call it "pvp."
you should check when they have events in WoW where they require both factions to be at the same spot to either kill or loot something... so many times i've seen groups go there to get what little wpvp they can get and the other faction just rolls over and plays dead just because they dont want to pvp.. some brave soul comes along and tries to rally the troops only to get hit by the QQ train that refuses to PvP.
Structured (instanced) PVP = sports. You have defined parameters and rules that all sides know and have to obey, as well as basic levels of balance. Things like strategy, leadership, and skill suddenly become much more important than simple momentum.
Open World PVP = rioting. You basically have huge, often poorly balanced, mobs of people zerging around because that's really all that mobs of people can do. It's not a competition. It's a bunch of people tipping over buses.
Seriously, when was the last time an MMO had open world PvP that *didn't* devolve into a massive zerg running around? I remember it going back to DAoC, so it's not even a new thing. It's just what people do. If you want to eliminate that, you'd have to eliminate the fast movement that enables it, and force everyone to walk in battle, like they really would.
Yeah, it's not really an easy thing to accomplish when you sit down and think about it. The zerging issue has been around for awhile.
The issue with pve and pvp players complaining about op or up skills and effecting one another has had a solution for a long time now, two separate rule systems. If a npc is targeted one set of rules is used and if a player is targeted another set of rules is used. That way if a skill is op in pvp and needs to be toned down it doesn't effect the pve use of that skill which may or may not needed to be toned down or buffed or w/e and vice verse.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Yup you can't have balance in a large open world, it's impossible simply put.
Of course its possible... If the game is also SKILL based, then a smaller but more organized group could take out a zerg of unskilled players (which tends to be the norm with zergs, as they are way harder to organize so many ppl) and thats the beauty of open world pvp, in a game designed around it.... if you put OW pvp in WoW (a PvE game) then yeah, it would be impossible to balance
Originally posted by Bladestrom Yup you can't have balance in a large open world, it's impossible simply put.
Of course its possible... If the game is also SKILL based, then a smaller but more organized group could take out a zerg of unskilled players (which tends to be the norm with zergs, as they are way harder to organize so many ppl) and thats the beauty of open world pvp, in a game designed around it.... if you put OW pvp in WoW (a PvE game) then yeah, it would be impossible to balance
Why couldn't wow simply tweak their phasing features to remove all pve content when pvp phased and remove all pvp content when pve phased? With cross realms, phasing, two separate rule sets for abilities, and maybe add some open world objectives...most would be happy. You want to pve? Phase into that. Want to pvp? Phase into that. An ability is too strong in pvp? Change the rules for it in pvp and keep the rules for it in pve.
Personally, I think things are in a place where everyone could be happy if only the changes were implemented. No more pvp servers or pve servers. Pvp games or pve games. But rather a game that literally changes(phases) depending on what you the player wants to do at any given time.
The issue is balance, gw2 Zerg trains being perfect example. Would you have a football game where it's up to the team how many players they can field at 1 time, with any level of 'armour' or professional level. Ofc not.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Yup you can't have balance in a large open world, it's impossible simply put.
Of course its possible... If the game is also SKILL based, then a smaller but more organized group could take out a zerg of unskilled players (which tends to be the norm with zergs, as they are way harder to organize so many ppl) and thats the beauty of open world pvp, in a game designed around it.... if you put OW pvp in WoW (a PvE game) then yeah, it would be impossible to balance
Why couldn't wow simply tweak their phasing features to remove all pve content when pvp phased and remove all pvp content when pve phased? With cross realms, phasing, two separate rule sets for abilities, and maybe add some open world objectives...most would be happy. You want to pve? Phase into that. Want to pvp? Phase into that. An ability is too strong in pvp? Change the rules for it in pvp and keep the rules for it in pve.
Personally, I think things are in a place where everyone could be happy if only the changes were implemented. No more pvp servers or pve servers. Pvp games or pve games. But rather a game that literally changes(phases) depending on what you the player wants to do at any given time.
See thats not what me, as the pvp player, wants.... I want an open world where killing anyone anywhere is possible at any time, with also the ability to loot all their gear, altho I dont mind a flagging system of some sort to penalize murderers and ban them from towns.... You cant please both the PvE and PvP crowd at the same time, just adding a pvp toggle in a pve game doesnt mean every pvper is gonna be happy automatically..
Originally posted by Cephus404 You miss the point. People don't want to be targets at all. They do not want to be involved in ganking at all. They do not want to have to watch their backs at all. Just because there is some system in place to punish people who gank down the line doesn't change the fact that people had to get ganked in the first place for them to get to that point.
Ganking sucks. People hate it. That's the point.
This is fine as long as you realize you are talking about some people and not all people. I cannot have fun long term in a PvE game if I'm not watching my back for PvP. PvE is just too simplistic and boring for me to last in that state. I don't want PvP where I have clear cut enemies either. I want a much more realistic fantasy world where I am unclear of who the enemy is and I find out by interacting with them.
PvP server on a PvE game is all I really need though. It is painfully easy to make them work together if the devs want to, they just need to make it optional.
Then by all means, don't play it. If you don't like PvE, don't play it. I don't like PvP at all, I don't play it, at all. I don't roll on PvP servers, at all. If PvPers want to run around stabbing each other in the back, go ahead, I don't care. The problem is that there are tons of threads around here where PvPers try desperately to convince PvErs that they really secretly like PvP and ought to have open world PvP in their games no matter how much they protest. I have yet to see a single thread where a PvEr has tried to tell the PvPers that they really secretly want more PvE in their games. Never.
I don't think any PvE player gives a damn what the PvPers do, they don't want them to change, they don't want them to drop dead, but the reverse is certainly not true. You want to play PvP? Go ahead. Play on your PvP servers or find a PvP-only game. I'm happy with that. And for the PvP apologists, just leave the rest of us, the vast majority of us, alone.
Originally posted by Bladestrom The issue is balance, gw2 Zerg trains being perfect example. Would you have a football game where it's up to the team how many players they can field at 1 time, with any level of 'armour' or professional level. Ofc not.
But mmorpgs are not football games, or any sport game... Theyre supposed to be virtual worlds, you dont see a thief whos gonna rob someone in a dark alley wait until theyre even numbers to do it...
Maybe you like FPS or MOBAs more than MMORPGS, theyre evenly matched and everything is equal, an instanced e sport where everything is "fair"...
Originally posted by Bladestrom Which is different from you pvp phase toggle - but you can already tag yourself as pvp..
Yeah and yet you're still within a pve game. I'm talking about changing the world with a toggle...
Meaning, you go from a pve focused world to a pvp focused world with a toggle.
I don't have an answer for the zerging issue. Some sort of structure needs to be in place that prevents any gain from mindless mob mentality...
Any sort of toggle would destroy all the charm of Open world pvp... Your losing a fight? Switch to Pve world... Any sort of economy where you can play a bandit and stalk the roads for ppl transporting goods, impossible, these ppl would be in the pve world... etc. etc.
And theres no answer for the zerg but make the game more skill based... in your typical button smashing fest, of course zerging is going to be an issue, but in games like Darkfall or Mortal online where u have to aim your weapon swings and theres friendly fire you see small groups of good pvpers taking down zergs
Comments
Like narius said, they are essentially two different games. The difference in the two metagames is too drastic for them to work well with one another. The main problem is that AI controlled monsters do not act the same way or often don't even use the same abilities as players do. Therefore, characters opted for PvE are at a gross disadvantage when pitted against PvP specialized builds. It is the old wolves hunting the sheep, which is not fun for either parties.
I don't think there's an easy way to mix PvE and PvP, but the first thing I would do is to bring those metagames closer together. Ideally, if all builds and tactics were equally viable in both PvE and PvE, you would have the classic problem of wolves hunting the sheep.
Likely this would mean improving the AI and abolishing the aggro-based trinity combat which many are still fond of.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This statement is as true as the one you made. Games are balanced around PvE way more often than they ever have around PvP and usually the PvE players still try to blame it on PvP when the changes were more about the raid game 99% of the time.
This is fine as long as you realize you are talking about some people and not all people. I cannot have fun long term in a PvE game if I'm not watching my back for PvP. PvE is just too simplistic and boring for me to last in that state. I don't want PvP where I have clear cut enemies either. I want a much more realistic fantasy world where I am unclear of who the enemy is and I find out by interacting with them.
PvP server on a PvE game is all I really need though. It is painfully easy to make them work together if the devs want to, they just need to make it optional.
I think you have to take into account that PvE isn't very challenging, but can be if it is designed that way. In Everquest you had to watch your back because even a normal mob could take you down if you were sitting recovering your health or in the middle of a fight. It's not like today where you can take a few mobs at a time and your health recovers instantly after a fight. There were also nasty mobs wandering around with large agro radius that would one or two shot you.
It mainly depends on what you find "challenging". I tend to approach games as puzzles to be be solved and if it becomes too random, it stops being a puzzle. Always needing to watch your back seems like a very childish thing to put into a game (I had a stressfull childhood) and I prefer more intellectual challenges rather thanht "actiony" challenges that PvP brings out in those games.
It adds an element to the PvP game that PvP players enjoy. It will not turn the PvP game into something that the PvE players enjoy. Different games, different goals. The PvE players simply don't want the PvP element. It doesn't matter what rule system you put in place. Unless the PvP is optional, it will not work (for the PvE players).
**
It's relevant to note that UO's ultimate solution was to create a new server with a PvE rule set, separate from the PvP rule set server. That's what worked. UO's PvP rule set system resulted in something that PvP players enjoyed, not PvE players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Again, people say they've seen them. They never seem to actually show up here though. Every person who complains about something ends up here. We get drama from more or less every game that's running. Those people never seem to show up here or in these discussions.
Bigfoot.
**
They might exist, but they are heavily outnumbered by the people who say they've seen them and the people who say they exist.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You're both right in you're own ways. The complaints on pvp servers are about level cap'd players sneezing at lowbies while they level up and one shoting them. That has never been nor will be pvp. Rarely do I see someone complain that pvp is occurring between people within their own level range. Why? Because the former is griefing and the latter is pvp.
I don't go out and fry a bunch of ants with a magnifying glass and then beat my chest and proclaim I'm a great "warrior." That would be asinine. The same is true about people who grief lowbies and call it "pvp."
Well, I could definitely see that. The low level players just have no chance at all. They aren't going to learn anything, other than what it's like to be killed in game. It's not like Chess where you get beaten and can maybe learn something from it. The complaints would be a waste of time, but I could see people complaining about that, whether they wanted to ultimately PvE or PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
you should check when they have events in WoW where they require both factions to be at the same spot to either kill or loot something... so many times i've seen groups go there to get what little wpvp they can get and the other faction just rolls over and plays dead just because they dont want to pvp.. some brave soul comes along and tries to rally the troops only to get hit by the QQ train that refuses to PvP.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Lets look at some real-world analogies here:
Structured (instanced) PVP = sports. You have defined parameters and rules that all sides know and have to obey, as well as basic levels of balance. Things like strategy, leadership, and skill suddenly become much more important than simple momentum.
Open World PVP = rioting. You basically have huge, often poorly balanced, mobs of people zerging around because that's really all that mobs of people can do. It's not a competition. It's a bunch of people tipping over buses.
Seriously, when was the last time an MMO had open world PvP that *didn't* devolve into a massive zerg running around? I remember it going back to DAoC, so it's not even a new thing. It's just what people do. If you want to eliminate that, you'd have to eliminate the fast movement that enables it, and force everyone to walk in battle, like they really would.
You make me like charity
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Yeah, it's not really an easy thing to accomplish when you sit down and think about it. The zerging issue has been around for awhile.
The issue with pve and pvp players complaining about op or up skills and effecting one another has had a solution for a long time now, two separate rule systems. If a npc is targeted one set of rules is used and if a player is targeted another set of rules is used. That way if a skill is op in pvp and needs to be toned down it doesn't effect the pve use of that skill which may or may not needed to be toned down or buffed or w/e and vice verse.
Of course its possible... If the game is also SKILL based, then a smaller but more organized group could take out a zerg of unskilled players (which tends to be the norm with zergs, as they are way harder to organize so many ppl) and thats the beauty of open world pvp, in a game designed around it.... if you put OW pvp in WoW (a PvE game) then yeah, it would be impossible to balance
Why couldn't wow simply tweak their phasing features to remove all pve content when pvp phased and remove all pvp content when pve phased? With cross realms, phasing, two separate rule sets for abilities, and maybe add some open world objectives...most would be happy. You want to pve? Phase into that. Want to pvp? Phase into that. An ability is too strong in pvp? Change the rules for it in pvp and keep the rules for it in pve.
Personally, I think things are in a place where everyone could be happy if only the changes were implemented. No more pvp servers or pve servers. Pvp games or pve games. But rather a game that literally changes(phases) depending on what you the player wants to do at any given time.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
See thats not what me, as the pvp player, wants.... I want an open world where killing anyone anywhere is possible at any time, with also the ability to loot all their gear, altho I dont mind a flagging system of some sort to penalize murderers and ban them from towns.... You cant please both the PvE and PvP crowd at the same time, just adding a pvp toggle in a pve game doesnt mean every pvper is gonna be happy automatically..
Then by all means, don't play it. If you don't like PvE, don't play it. I don't like PvP at all, I don't play it, at all. I don't roll on PvP servers, at all. If PvPers want to run around stabbing each other in the back, go ahead, I don't care. The problem is that there are tons of threads around here where PvPers try desperately to convince PvErs that they really secretly like PvP and ought to have open world PvP in their games no matter how much they protest. I have yet to see a single thread where a PvEr has tried to tell the PvPers that they really secretly want more PvE in their games. Never.
I don't think any PvE player gives a damn what the PvPers do, they don't want them to change, they don't want them to drop dead, but the reverse is certainly not true. You want to play PvP? Go ahead. Play on your PvP servers or find a PvP-only game. I'm happy with that. And for the PvP apologists, just leave the rest of us, the vast majority of us, alone.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Yeah and yet you're still within a pve game. I'm talking about changing the world with a toggle...
Meaning, you go from a pve focused world to a pvp focused world with a toggle.
I don't have an answer for the zerging issue. Some sort of structure needs to be in place that prevents any gain from mindless mob mentality...
But mmorpgs are not football games, or any sport game... Theyre supposed to be virtual worlds, you dont see a thief whos gonna rob someone in a dark alley wait until theyre even numbers to do it...
Maybe you like FPS or MOBAs more than MMORPGS, theyre evenly matched and everything is equal, an instanced e sport where everything is "fair"...
You want unfair, ok.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Any sort of toggle would destroy all the charm of Open world pvp... Your losing a fight? Switch to Pve world... Any sort of economy where you can play a bandit and stalk the roads for ppl transporting goods, impossible, these ppl would be in the pve world... etc. etc.
And theres no answer for the zerg but make the game more skill based... in your typical button smashing fest, of course zerging is going to be an issue, but in games like Darkfall or Mortal online where u have to aim your weapon swings and theres friendly fire you see small groups of good pvpers taking down zergs