Originally posted by Bladestrom Do in a pve/pvp mix game is it fair of a over can turn you into a dandelion for 30 mins do I can farm you for pve gain. if you are allowed to me? Lol ofc not, ganking is selfish unless it is mutually agreed apon implicitly or otherwise
Actually, if you sign up for an open world pvp game your already implicitly mutually agreeing to pvp... maybe for you any form of pvp that isnt in a battleground like a counter strike match is "ganking"
Lol I didn't sign up for pvp, that os changing changing the subject to suit your arguements. If I consent by entering a pvp zone OFC I ask for it. Thread was about balance, then fairness, followed by 'I can gank you, deal with ot' so can I turn you into a pvp plauer into a dandelion if he enters a enter a pve zone?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
A better analogy, I'm ganked in a pve zone, I'm camped, I lose 30 mins of my time. Same player enters a pve zone, as he is tagged I can jail him for 30 mins, and he can't get out.
What now? Lose lose
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol I didn't sign up for pvp, that os changing changing the subject to suit your arguements. If I consent by entering a pvp zone OFC I ask for it. Thread was about balance, then fairness, followed by 'I can gank you, deal with ot' so can I turn you into a pvp plauer into a dandelion if he enters a enter a pve zone?
Originally posted by Bladestrom A better analogy, I'm ganked in a pve zone, I'm camped, I lose 30 mins of my time. Same player enters a pve zone, as he is tagged I can jail him for 30 mins, and he can't get out.
What now? Lose lose
Originally posted by Bladestrom Those who want griefing/ganking can't face this question scenario ^^ True Pvpers - makes no difference, they play in pvp zones.
Its not truly a pvp game unless ALL zones are pvp zones (albeit some with different consecuences like in Eve).. If you enter in these types of games, yeah you gotta deal with it...
Corpse camping is retarded and jailtime even more so, Id rather have full loot so there would be no corpse to camp, if theyre camping your resurection point I agree you should have some safer (but not completely safe, maybe with guards) place to res...
The spawn thing is irrelevant, and the only issue us where a person hanks or griefs another when that other person wants to pve (and zone is intended for pve as well as pvp, which does not work.
If a Pvpers on this circumstance can gank a pve player then a pve player should be able to apply an equal pve effect (e.g jail). Would gankers shrug and say fair enough? Or would they perhaps start applying little justifications and caveats to justify why it's ok to gank and not ok to jail. 'deal with it' the ganked said, but can they?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom The spawn thing is irrelevant, and the only issue us where a person hanks or griefs another when that other person wants to pve (and zone is intended for pve as well as pvp, which does not work.
If a Pvpers on this circumstance can gank a pve player then a pve player should be able to apply an equal pve effect (e.g jail). Would gankers shrug and say fair enough? Or would they perhaps start applying little justifications and caveats to justify why it's ok to gank and not ok to jail. 'deal with it' the ganked said, but can they?
Jailtime is stupid. If the game allows open pvp, why penalize it.... I think the PvE player in your example should stop crying and go play one of the countless PvE games.... any pve in a OW game is always connected to pvp in some way
A game that caters to both pvers and pvpers cannot exist, sorry but a simple toggle wont do it..
Lol no you think jail time is stupid, as a pve player that was ganked in a mixed pve/pvp zone I think it is a brilliant idea - both sets of players must 'deal with it'
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Pa you keep avoiding fact this refers to a mixed pve/pvp zone to make your arguements.
Originally posted by Bladestrom And remember , ganker says fairness doesn't come into it - to jail the ganker goes while I farm his tears.
Why would you play on a mixed pvp/pve zone if you only want to pve? Why would you want this revenge on "gankers" if you can avoid it completely by playing on another zone? Or maybe your not good enough to get revenge on your own, so you want the game to do it for you, lol
Why would you play in a mixed pve/pvp zone if you know ganking runs the risk or imprisonment. I want to play there now, u find it exciting that I may capture a Pvpers.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I'm sure the answer is because it's hard to balance, or people either like one or the other in their MMO.
No... The real answer is: because game designers are incompetent and unimaginative (hyperbole) so they won't think of ways to make it work properly (actual truth). And because PvE players have been made extremely wary by years of bad design, just mentioning the idea causes an outcry.
Actually, one of the game that had an interesting system to do it properly but DIDN'T implement open world PvP in the end is GW2...
If the so called "gankers" were down-levelled at the level of the zone they are attacking (and assuming respawn zones are actually far enough so that it is a chore for a "ganker" to come back), then this would be done properly and any PvE expert could just call a couple of team mates to fight back - or at least stand a chance on their own (gankers who are interested in fair open world competition would probably be happy with this idea, and the rest are just annoying kids who can f' off).
But instead you have just more and more terrible designs "a la WoW" where a single level 60+ will just wreak havoc leaving no chance for the poor level 20 to retaliate (unless they call very high levels to the rescue). This is bad design and this is why most people aren't enjoying open world PvP.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Why would you play in a mixed pve/pvp zone if you know ganking runs the risk or imprisonment. I want to play there now, u find it exciting that I may capture a Pvpers.
so ganking or gank jailing is shit, we need a system that makes it consential, but as you say a shared zone does not work - it has to be pvp or pve, eve almost has it with concord - jf only there wasn't exploits.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Pa you keep avoiding fact this refers to a mixed pve/pvp zone to make your arguements.
Originally posted by Bladestrom And remember , ganker says fairness doesn't come into it - to jail the ganker goes while I farm his tears.
Why would you play on a mixed pvp/pve zone if you only want to pve? Why would you want this revenge on "gankers" if you can avoid it completely by playing on another zone? Or maybe your not good enough to get revenge on your own, so you want the game to do it for you, lol
I wouldn't and I don't. I don't play any OWPvP game ever. I don't play on PvP servers ever. If the game allows me to completely opt out of PvP, I do. If not, I don't play that game. I make it quite clear that I have no interest in PvP at all. Why can't PvPers do the same thing, stick only to their own games, stop trying to convert PvErs to PvP, etc.?
Originally posted by YoungCaesar Lol player ganking is not your fault?? PvE ppl tend to have a really low perception of their pvp abilities that they think if theres OW pvp theyre only hope is to be used as target practice... Theres tons of ways you can minimize ganking, stop waiting till your down to 1 hp to heal while pveing, dont go afk in unguarded areas, etc. Actually a mob 1 shotting you is worse because your only fighting inflated hp points and dmg, where vs a player you got a chance to out smart them..
In most (90% or more) of my OW PvP encounters, PvPers are NOT looking to see how good they are ("AI Mobs are too EASY!"), they are looking for: 1) easy kills or 2) irritating kills.
Most of the time, an OW PvP fight I lose is NOT my fault, because I am already: 1) low on health 2) already engaged 3) out-leveled 4) out geared 5) out numbered
"Heal before you get to 1 HP." Well, duh! I heal when I am at about 20-25%. Doesn't matter if I am out of potions, mana for a spell, or 1-3 PvPers jump in and hit me at once.
I have been killed by an Orc Pawn (level 1 Mob) in EQ because I was down so low on health, his one hit took me down. I was usually traveling TO a safe spot, in order to heal up. In EQ, ANY mob would attack a player when they got low enough in health. Add to that PvPers and it is just too much for me, personally.
I'm also NOT going to get into a group for protection JUST so I can gather crafting mats. That is outright stupid to expect that from players.
No, I am in the "keep them separate" camp. The vast majority of PvP players I have encountered are NOT players I desire to play with. There are many PvPers that ARE good players and actually look to "test themselves", but the majority are just outright dicks.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol *bashes head on wall*
You want unfair, ok.
Yes. Life is not fair, deal with it
unfair is more fun than "fair"
Fun for who? The asshole ganking low-level players?
Not really, some of the most fun I had on a video game was when 3 ppl tried to gank me while farming and managed to turn it around and kill all three... this wouldnt be possible in a e-sport instanced battlegrounds game...
Originally posted by Bladestrom Yup you can't have balance in a large open world, it's impossible simply put.
In FPS games, everyone is the same. They are usually human beings. They are usually soldiers. They usually carry guns. What makes them different are the weapons that EVERYONE has equal access to. Very easy to balance that kind of PvP.
MMOs are a whole different beast. Players are different races and different classes. Some use ranged attacks like spells and bows. Some only have access to melee weapons. Some players may excel at crowd control. Others may excel at healing. MMOs CELEBRATE those differences. Or at least... they used to.
Now, MMOs are getting more and more bland as every race and class can pretty much do everything. The differences are going fast.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Zadawn PvPers usually don't mind, its the PVE players that are mass crying all the time. This is why it desn't work.
I rarely see a PvE player "cry" about player balance. I see A LOT of PvPers, however, cry all the time!
Maybe you read different boards than I do?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by RaSungod The best system I've seen that makes everyone happy is opt in / opt out PvP with TEF flags. That, in my opinion, is the best way to open PvP up to the whole server, while letting people who want to play PvE do so without being bothered. It allowed me to PvP when I was in the mood, or PvE / non-combat play, when I wasn't.
No this sucks, it does NOT make the PvPer happy... it might make some pver who likes to pvp once in a while happy, but it completely fucks up the open world pvp experience
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Actually, if you sign up for an open world pvp game your already implicitly mutually agreeing to pvp... maybe for you any form of pvp that isnt in a battleground like a counter strike match is "ganking"
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
What now? Lose lose
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Its not truly a pvp game unless ALL zones are pvp zones (albeit some with different consecuences like in Eve).. If you enter in these types of games, yeah you gotta deal with it...
Corpse camping is retarded and jailtime even more so, Id rather have full loot so there would be no corpse to camp, if theyre camping your resurection point I agree you should have some safer (but not completely safe, maybe with guards) place to res...
If a Pvpers on this circumstance can gank a pve player then a pve player should be able to apply an equal pve effect (e.g jail). Would gankers shrug and say fair enough? Or would they perhaps start applying little justifications and caveats to justify why it's ok to gank and not ok to jail. 'deal with it' the ganked said, but can they?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Jailtime is stupid. If the game allows open pvp, why penalize it.... I think the PvE player in your example should stop crying and go play one of the countless PvE games.... any pve in a OW game is always connected to pvp in some way
A game that caters to both pvers and pvpers cannot exist, sorry but a simple toggle wont do it..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Why would you play on a mixed pvp/pve zone if you only want to pve? Why would you want this revenge on "gankers" if you can avoid it completely by playing on another zone? Or maybe your not good enough to get revenge on your own, so you want the game to do it for you, lol
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
No... The real answer is: because game designers are incompetent and unimaginative (hyperbole) so they won't think of ways to make it work properly (actual truth). And because PvE players have been made extremely wary by years of bad design, just mentioning the idea causes an outcry.
Actually, one of the game that had an interesting system to do it properly but DIDN'T implement open world PvP in the end is GW2...
If the so called "gankers" were down-levelled at the level of the zone they are attacking (and assuming respawn zones are actually far enough so that it is a chore for a "ganker" to come back), then this would be done properly and any PvE expert could just call a couple of team mates to fight back - or at least stand a chance on their own (gankers who are interested in fair open world competition would probably be happy with this idea, and the rest are just annoying kids who can f' off).
But instead you have just more and more terrible designs "a la WoW" where a single level 60+ will just wreak havoc leaving no chance for the poor level 20 to retaliate (unless they call very high levels to the rescue). This is bad design and this is why most people aren't enjoying open world PvP.
lol I wouldnt....
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Fun for who? The asshole ganking low-level players?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I wouldn't and I don't. I don't play any OWPvP game ever. I don't play on PvP servers ever. If the game allows me to completely opt out of PvP, I do. If not, I don't play that game. I make it quite clear that I have no interest in PvP at all. Why can't PvPers do the same thing, stick only to their own games, stop trying to convert PvErs to PvP, etc.?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
1) easy kills or
2) irritating kills.
Most of the time, an OW PvP fight I lose is NOT my fault, because I am already:
1) low on health
2) already engaged
3) out-leveled
4) out geared
5) out numbered
"Heal before you get to 1 HP." Well, duh! I heal when I am at about 20-25%. Doesn't matter if I am out of potions, mana for a spell, or 1-3 PvPers jump in and hit me at once.
I have been killed by an Orc Pawn (level 1 Mob) in EQ because I was down so low on health, his one hit took me down. I was usually traveling TO a safe spot, in order to heal up. In EQ, ANY mob would attack a player when they got low enough in health. Add to that PvPers and it is just too much for me, personally.
I'm also NOT going to get into a group for protection JUST so I can gather crafting mats. That is outright stupid to expect that from players.
No, I am in the "keep them separate" camp. The vast majority of PvP players I have encountered are NOT players I desire to play with. There are many PvPers that ARE good players and actually look to "test themselves", but the majority are just outright dicks.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Not really, some of the most fun I had on a video game was when 3 ppl tried to gank me while farming and managed to turn it around and kill all three... this wouldnt be possible in a e-sport instanced battlegrounds game...
MMOs are a whole different beast. Players are different races and different classes. Some use ranged attacks like spells and bows. Some only have access to melee weapons. Some players may excel at crowd control. Others may excel at healing. MMOs CELEBRATE those differences. Or at least... they used to.
Now, MMOs are getting more and more bland as every race and class can pretty much do everything. The differences are going fast.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Maybe you read different boards than I do?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
No this sucks, it does NOT make the PvPer happy... it might make some pver who likes to pvp once in a while happy, but it completely fucks up the open world pvp experience