I'm sure the answer is because it's hard to balance, or people either like one or the other in their MMO.
But, one thing I dislike the most in most modern MMO's is the separation of PvP from PvE. I hate instanced PvP because it feels like I'm play a separate game which to me voids the whole point of an MMO world. Games like UO, AC1 (DT) and even SWG to an extant had open world PvP with no separation of the two, and these game gave me the most fun.
I just wish more MMO's would do this, and from what I'm hearing EQN will be , or at least I hope so.
/endrant
The issue is this: choices and the increasing lack of them.
When I chose to play on a MMORPG PvE realm, that means I want to play PvE content, as to me I want immersion in the world with my toon as the hero.
The bickering increases when the PvE is increasingly being overshadowed with more PvP encounters...ON PVE REALMS.
Want PvP, play it either in instances on PvE realms or join a PvP only realm. It's that simple.
I'm sure the answer is because it's hard to balance, or people either like one or the other in their MMO.
But, one thing I dislike the most in most modern MMO's is the separation of PvP from PvE. I hate instanced PvP because it feels like I'm play a separate game which to me voids the whole point of an MMO world. Games like UO, AC1 (DT) and even SWG to an extant had open world PvP with no separation of the two, and these game gave me the most fun.
I just wish more MMO's would do this, and from what I'm hearing EQN will be , or at least I hope so.
/endrant
The issue is this: choices and the increasing lack of them.
When I chose to play on a MMORPG PvE realm, that means I want to play PvE content, as to me I want immersion in the world with my toon as the hero.
The bickering increases when the PvE is increasingly being overshadowed with more PvP encounters...ON PVE REALMS.
Want PvP, play it either in instances on PvE realms or join a PvP only realm. It's that simple.
What are you crying about? The last time PvErs were forced to pvp was in UO, because there was no other option.... Now its the opposite lol
There is only one logical reason why PvPers can't accept seperate rule-set servers. They want the ability to kill people, especially those that would rather not PvP.
Roleplayers don't try to force their play style on other players. No they go and play on their own rule-set server.
I'm sure the answer is because it's hard to balance, or people either like one or the other in their MMO.
But, one thing I dislike the most in most modern MMO's is the separation of PvP from PvE. I hate instanced PvP because it feels like I'm play a separate game which to me voids the whole point of an MMO world. Games like UO, AC1 (DT) and even SWG to an extant had open world PvP with no separation of the two, and these game gave me the most fun.
I just wish more MMO's would do this, and from what I'm hearing EQN will be , or at least I hope so.
/endrant
The issue is this: choices and the increasing lack of them.
When I chose to play on a MMORPG PvE realm, that means I want to play PvE content, as to me I want immersion in the world with my toon as the hero.
The bickering increases when the PvE is increasingly being overshadowed with more PvP encounters...ON PVE REALMS.
Want PvP, play it either in instances on PvE realms or join a PvP only realm. It's that simple.
What are you crying about? The last time PvErs were forced to pvp was in UO, because there was no other option.... Now its the opposite lol
You obviously haven't played WoW, and especially MoP!
Three tier patches. Three PvP themed areas on PvE realms, not to mention open world PvP on PvE world bosses (and without the PvP button to turn off -- which even RIFT has). Blizzard even made it possible to kill your own faction in PvP. -_-
And before that, ask both PvErs and PvPers that Blizzard forced them to do PvP or PvE for weapons or other gear -- so no, UO, wasn't the last time at all.
Originally posted by RaSungod The best system I've seen that makes everyone happy is opt in / opt out PvP with TEF flags. That, in my opinion, is the best way to open PvP up to the whole server, while letting people who want to play PvE do so without being bothered. It allowed me to PvP when I was in the mood, or PvE / non-combat play, when I wasn't.
No this sucks, it does NOT make the PvPer happy... it might make some pver who likes to pvp once in a while happy, but it completely fucks up the open world pvp experience
I'm not referring to a pure pvp game, obviously. I'm referring to games where PvE players are inevitable and some want nothing to do with PvP, while others only want PvP sometimes. You need a system that makes everyone happy. If you expect pure PvP, good luck with that in today's world. Super-niche at best.
There are very good PvP only games on the market already. Games like Call of Duty, Battlefield 4 ...
Originally posted by RaSungod The best system I've seen that makes everyone happy is opt in / opt out PvP with TEF flags. That, in my opinion, is the best way to open PvP up to the whole server, while letting people who want to play PvE do so without being bothered. It allowed me to PvP when I was in the mood, or PvE / non-combat play, when I wasn't.
No this sucks, it does NOT make the PvPer happy... it might make some pver who likes to pvp once in a while happy, but it completely fucks up the open world pvp experience
I'm not referring to a pure pvp game, obviously. I'm referring to games where PvE players are inevitable and some want nothing to do with PvP, while others only want PvP sometimes. You need a system that makes everyone happy. If you expect pure PvP, good luck with that in today's world. Super-niche at best.
There are very good PvP only games on the market already. Games like Call of Duty, Battlefield 4 ...
I'm sure the answer is because it's hard to balance, or people either like one or the other in their MMO.
But, one thing I dislike the most in most modern MMO's is the separation of PvP from PvE. I hate instanced PvP because it feels like I'm play a separate game which to me voids the whole point of an MMO world. Games like UO, AC1 (DT) and even SWG to an extant had open world PvP with no separation of the two, and these game gave me the most fun.
I just wish more MMO's would do this, and from what I'm hearing EQN will be , or at least I hope so.
Quite frankly, there are PvPers out there who deliberately set out to ruin the gaming experience for non-PvPers through immature behaviour. If it can be done, they will do it. Fed-up non-PvPers may well decide to leave the game because of it. No gaming company wants to see subscribers leave (therefore lowering revenue), so it's no wonder that PvE and PvP are kept separate.
The OP expressed a wish to have open world with both PvP and non-PVP players mixing it together. Why? Is his game experience enhanced by having players who have no desire to PvP, therefore are not a challenge to him? Does he feel the need to fight players who won't fight back or are no good at PvP, therefore stoking his PvP ego? What's wrong with playing in a dedicated PvP world with like-minded players? Is it because he would get no free kills, every player he encounters is out to get him?
Originally posted by k11keeper I have to agree with sanchi on this. More then balancing issues people just don't like getting ganked. It is never fun to be out doing what you planned to do just to have some guy come up and 1 or 2 shot you. Only to run back and have that same person do it over and over.
That is why I really liked the karma system in L2 it sort of kept that to a minimum while still having that thrill of it being a possibility. The cool thing was if someone went red people gathered together to hunt him down and you would get your revenge. Honestly if that game wasn't the grindiness of the grindys (and full of bots) I think that sort of system would have caught on and there would be more open world PvP games these days.
UO did this with PK'ers. If you where red you couldn't go into towns or have people rez you unless they were red too.
There are systems that would allow for people who do PK to have consequences for their actions.
yeah exactly i dunno how they want to create an MMO world without consequences ...
I'm sure the answer is because it's hard to balance, or people either like one or the other in their MMO.
No... The real answer is: because game designers are incompetent and unimaginative (hyperbole) so they won't think of ways to make it work properly (actual truth). And because PvE players have been made extremely wary by years of bad design, just mentioning the idea causes an outcry.
Actually, one of the game that had an interesting system to do it properly but DIDN'T implement open world PvP in the end is GW2...
If the so called "gankers" were down-levelled at the level of the zone they are attacking (and assuming respawn zones are actually far enough so that it is a chore for a "ganker" to come back), then this would be done properly and any PvE expert could just call a couple of team mates to fight back - or at least stand a chance on their own (gankers who are interested in fair open world competition would probably be happy with this idea, and the rest are just annoying kids who can f' off).
But instead you have just more and more terrible designs "a la WoW" where a single level 60+ will just wreak havoc leaving no chance for the poor level 20 to retaliate (unless they call very high levels to the rescue). This is bad design and this is why most people aren't enjoying open world PvP.
Guild Wars 2 also makes the PvP optional. The players choose when they will participate and when they won't. There is no solution to having PvE players participate in PvP that doesn't include making the PvP optional. Balance is fine, but step one is choice.
Complex consequence systems, downleveling, etc. are all things that are there so PvP is more interesting and so it requires more thought. These solutions are there to appeal to PvP players. That is what they learned in UO. Make PvP complex, balance it, give it consequences and PvP players will be all over it. PvE players will just want to leave because the one thing they want, choice, will be missing. As soon as those players had a choice, they left Felucca and went to Trammel. Something the PvP players are still complaining about.
I have two questions. 1) Why is it so important to the PvP players that the PvE players participate in PvP, when they just don't want to? 2) Why do the PvP players persist in thinking that it's just "balance" or "consequences" that makes PvP something PvE players do not want to participate in?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
downscaling level and bolster and such are nice ideas that are hard to implement due to most games having gear involved.. i mean if you are a lowbie and a high level comes at you he's still going to have an advantage over you due to the stats on his gear.. so unless they remove all stats granted by gear in open world situations it wont help much.
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
somethings defenitely wrong that's for sure.. maybe they're trying to ease players into some server mergers to cut costs or something like that.
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
Rest assured, making PvP good is as hard as making good PvE content.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
somethings defenitely wrong that's for sure.. maybe they're trying to ease players into some server mergers to cut costs or something like that.
Ok, first of all, I don't know what someone means by "PvP is player made" In WoW nothing is player-made.
Secondly, Blizzard DOES differentiate between PvP and PvE. They actually have gear sets specific to PvP. Actually, I think this might be one of the biggest problems between PvE and PvP. So everyone wants Open World PvP, but a major reason that's broken is that my PvE gear doesn't PvP well. In WoW someone could be outfitted with crafted PvP gear and handle someone in the highest-tier PvE gear with ease. So, basically, I don't have a PvP action bar AND I don't have PvP gear, so any PvE person is at a serious disadvantage already. Additionally, I tank in PvE, but a tank spec isn't as viable in PvP (at least not in 1v1 combat), minus maybe a prot Pally who just frustrates you. In general, though, they aren't viable for duels. I'd like to see a common gear set for PvE and PvP. Resilience and PvP Power are such BS and causes more problems than it solves. IMO, get rid of PvP stats and you at least level the playing field slightly. Maybe then there'd be less hate between PvP and PvE.
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
Rest assured, making PvP good is as hard as making good PvE content.
Naw, PvP players are the content, with little need for PvE content. It's why PvP is tacked on so readily in games. Easier to tweak numbers on classes, than spending millions on new art assets and mechanic designs (let alone making even more quests to do as time and lore sinks).
PvE, the content IS the game and the entertainment. Why raids and quest zones take so much development time, compared to tweaking class numbers for a sense of balance.
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
somethings defenitely wrong that's for sure.. maybe they're trying to ease players into some server mergers to cut costs or something like that.
Ok, first of all, I don't know what someone means by "PvP is player made" In WoW nothing is player-made.
Secondly, Blizzard DOES differentiate between PvP and PvE. They actually have gear sets specific to PvP. Actually, I think this might be one of the biggest problems between PvE and PvP. So everyone wants Open World PvP, but a major reason that's broken is that my PvE gear doesn't PvP well. In WoW someone could be outfitted with crafted PvP gear and handle someone in the highest-tier PvE gear with ease. So, basically, I don't have a PvP action bar AND I don't have PvP gear, so any PvE person is at a serious disadvantage already. Additionally, I tank in PvE, but a tank spec isn't as viable in PvP (at least not in 1v1 combat), minus maybe a prot Pally who just frustrates you. In general, though, they aren't viable for duels. I'd like to see a common gear set for PvE and PvP. Resilience and PvP Power are such BS and causes more problems than it solves. IMO, get rid of PvP stats and you at least level the playing field slightly. Maybe then there'd be less hate between PvP and PvE.
Here I agree to the fullest. I remember as a hardcore PvEer I started to dabble in the Rift PvP arenas and really started to have fun... Till I hit 50 and the PvPgeared one-shotted me. PvP-Gear just supports those who are already good and enjoy PvP and excludes casual PvPers and makes their time even harder. I just quitted PvPing with that char, because I don't mind dying, I died alot, but I mind being slaughtered without any chance.
I'm all in for different effects/dmg for PvE/PvP on skills (Anarchy Online cut damage to 1/3rd or by 1/3rd in PvP, can't remember which one), but PvP gear just drives the factions apart...
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
somethings defenitely wrong that's for sure.. maybe they're trying to ease players into some server mergers to cut costs or something like that.
Ok, first of all, I don't know what someone means by "PvP is player made" In WoW nothing is player-made.
Secondly, Blizzard DOES differentiate between PvP and PvE. They actually have gear sets specific to PvP. Actually, I think this might be one of the biggest problems between PvE and PvP. So everyone wants Open World PvP, but a major reason that's broken is that my PvE gear doesn't PvP well. In WoW someone could be outfitted with crafted PvP gear and handle someone in the highest-tier PvE gear with ease. So, basically, I don't have a PvP action bar AND I don't have PvP gear, so any PvE person is at a serious disadvantage already. Additionally, I tank in PvE, but a tank spec isn't as viable in PvP (at least not in 1v1 combat), minus maybe a prot Pally who just frustrates you. In general, though, they aren't viable for duels. I'd like to see a common gear set for PvE and PvP. Resilience and PvP Power are such BS and causes more problems than it solves. IMO, get rid of PvP stats and you at least level the playing field slightly. Maybe then there'd be less hate between PvP and PvE.
Here I agree to the fullest. I remember as a hardcore PvEer I started to dabble in the Rift PvP arenas and really started to have fun... Till I hit 50 and the PvPgeared one-shotted me. PvP-Gear just supports those who are already good and enjoy PvP and excludes casual PvPers and makes their time even harder. I just quitted PvPing with that char, because I don't mind dying, I died alot, but I mind being slaughtered without any chance.
I'm all in for different effects/dmg for PvE/PvP on skills (Anarchy Online cut damage to 1/3rd or by 1/3rd in PvP, can't remember which one), but PvP gear just drives the factions apart...
but if you remove the pvp gear then all of a sudden the best gear available is top raid tier and it just becomes a vicious circle that pretty much craps on both aspects.
Oh, I wouldn't mind removal of gear-treadmill alltogether. That's when the game ends for me, not when it begins. But that's jut me. I'm in for the journey and not ot "beat" an MMORPG. So what about less special super sepecific gear that you get by repeating what you need it for anyway? Let's try something new/old whatever, just to keep it balanced, or make gear attainable equal. So you can get equally powerfull gear by PvP and PvE. Who cares if you get 1000 Armor by grinding dungeons or battlegrounds? Just cut on special resistances and effects that just favor what you are already good at...
Originally posted by berenim Oh, I wouldn't mind removal of gear-treadmill alltogether. That's when the game ends for me, not when it begins. But that's jut me. I'm in for the journey and not ot "beat" an MMORPG. So what about less special super sepecific gear that you get by repeating what you need it for anyway? Let's try something new/old whatever, just to keep it balanced, or make gear attainable equal. So you can get equally powerfull gear by PvP and PvE. Who cares if you get 1000 Armor by grinding dungeons or battlegrounds? Just cut on special resistances and effects that just favor what you are already good at...
it would be so much more fun if the gear was just cosmetic and did'nt have an impact on actual game play.. sure there needs to be gear looted from grinding etc.. alot of people want goals to achieve and nothing wrong with that.. it just should'nt come with stats attached.
Originally posted by Aison2 gear separation is needed. If the gear is the same and pvp gears you faster, every pve player would see himself forced to pvp. Same vice versa.
Which is what happened in WoW -- again -- when they forced PvPers to raid to get the best weapons; or PvErs to endure PvP for quest/holiday achieves (For the Children achieve is bad all around, not only because it makes PvErs cannonfodder, the message it sends [bringing virtual kids into PvP combat and being a b-a-d parent in the process]).
When the PvE and PvP lines are blurred, the devs are doing a disservice to their own server classification system, too.
A raider doesn't want to PvP he loves raiding and questing. A PvPer doesn't want to raid because he likes PvPing. It's different play styles and different means of satisfaction. When the two are mixed, no one is happy.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer It's the Trinity. Tanks have to take very hard Boss hits. Healers have to be able to heal those very hard Boss hits. And typically, there are 2-4 DPSers for every healer so healers performance scale higher and out of proportion to DPS. This ruins PVP balance.
there is and should never b a such thing as pvp balance. attempting "balance" in pvp is what ruins all mmos. a mage should b able to fry a warrior at range in a couple hits. a warrior should b able to slice a mage at melee range in a couple hits. a rogue should b able to one shot a healer from behind. its just how it should b. u start to "balance" classes and make players get different gear just for 1 damn pvp stat and everything is all dicked up. either make a pure pvp game (which we all know wont make it long or if it does its just a niche game) or learn that u can not make a "balanced" game and deal with it.
Comments
The issue is this: choices and the increasing lack of them.
When I chose to play on a MMORPG PvE realm, that means I want to play PvE content, as to me I want immersion in the world with my toon as the hero.
The bickering increases when the PvE is increasingly being overshadowed with more PvP encounters...ON PVE REALMS.
Want PvP, play it either in instances on PvE realms or join a PvP only realm. It's that simple.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
What are you crying about? The last time PvErs were forced to pvp was in UO, because there was no other option.... Now its the opposite lol
There is only one logical reason why PvPers can't accept seperate rule-set servers. They want the ability to kill people, especially those that would rather not PvP.
Roleplayers don't try to force their play style on other players. No they go and play on their own rule-set server.
You obviously haven't played WoW, and especially MoP!
Three tier patches. Three PvP themed areas on PvE realms, not to mention open world PvP on PvE world bosses (and without the PvP button to turn off -- which even RIFT has). Blizzard even made it possible to kill your own faction in PvP. -_-
And before that, ask both PvErs and PvPers that Blizzard forced them to do PvP or PvE for weapons or other gear -- so no, UO, wasn't the last time at all.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
There are very good PvP only games on the market already. Games like Call of Duty, Battlefield 4 ...
none of those are in an open world
Join PVP server. Where is problem?
Quite frankly, there are PvPers out there who deliberately set out to ruin the gaming experience for non-PvPers through immature behaviour. If it can be done, they will do it. Fed-up non-PvPers may well decide to leave the game because of it. No gaming company wants to see subscribers leave (therefore lowering revenue), so it's no wonder that PvE and PvP are kept separate.
The OP expressed a wish to have open world with both PvP and non-PVP players mixing it together. Why? Is his game experience enhanced by having players who have no desire to PvP, therefore are not a challenge to him? Does he feel the need to fight players who won't fight back or are no good at PvP, therefore stoking his PvP ego? What's wrong with playing in a dedicated PvP world with like-minded players? Is it because he would get no free kills, every player he encounters is out to get him?
yeah exactly i dunno how they want to create an MMO world without consequences ...
Guild Wars 2 also makes the PvP optional. The players choose when they will participate and when they won't. There is no solution to having PvE players participate in PvP that doesn't include making the PvP optional. Balance is fine, but step one is choice.
Complex consequence systems, downleveling, etc. are all things that are there so PvP is more interesting and so it requires more thought. These solutions are there to appeal to PvP players. That is what they learned in UO. Make PvP complex, balance it, give it consequences and PvP players will be all over it. PvE players will just want to leave because the one thing they want, choice, will be missing. As soon as those players had a choice, they left Felucca and went to Trammel. Something the PvP players are still complaining about.
I have two questions. 1) Why is it so important to the PvP players that the PvE players participate in PvP, when they just don't want to? 2) Why do the PvP players persist in thinking that it's just "balance" or "consequences" that makes PvP something PvE players do not want to participate in?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
downscaling level and bolster and such are nice ideas that are hard to implement due to most games having gear involved.. i mean if you are a lowbie and a high level comes at you he's still going to have an advantage over you due to the stats on his gear.. so unless they remove all stats granted by gear in open world situations it wont help much.
anyways if a game offers pvp servers and pve servers stick with the one that fits you and dont go to the other one demanding special treatment.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
That's not happening though.
PvE realm you sign up for the only difference from it and a PvP realm (WoW for example) is a PvP realm you're always flagged but in Sanctuary cities. The content is the same for everyone, regardless of realm type.
In MoP Blizzard truly blurred the lines to the point, the flagging is the only difference, as they specifically made quest zones with ONLY rideable mounts available (so can't fly off to avoid PvP). Those zones will be but totally useless in upcoming expansions, as players use flying mounts to save time from getting from A to B, and yes, to avoid the griefers.
Totally useless game development and reuse value, even. -_-
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
yeah well blizzard must have been drunk when doing these kinds of changes.. because at first there was as it should be and then they just started messing around with the servers and all of a sudden they where all the same despite them being labeled differently... but i guess that follows their "fix that wich is not broken" policy.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Don't know what's going on at Blizzard, but I joke that aliens landed on Blizzard HQ now.
PvE realms are for PvE content. Both in the world and especially quest zones. PvP is optional and instanced.
PvP realms are for PvP, 24/7.
Not this "one-size-fits-all" lazy programming that's going on (and it is lazy, since PvE content takes more time to develop, PvP is player made for the most part).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
somethings defenitely wrong that's for sure.. maybe they're trying to ease players into some server mergers to cut costs or something like that.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Rest assured, making PvP good is as hard as making good PvE content.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ok, first of all, I don't know what someone means by "PvP is player made" In WoW nothing is player-made.
Secondly, Blizzard DOES differentiate between PvP and PvE. They actually have gear sets specific to PvP. Actually, I think this might be one of the biggest problems between PvE and PvP. So everyone wants Open World PvP, but a major reason that's broken is that my PvE gear doesn't PvP well. In WoW someone could be outfitted with crafted PvP gear and handle someone in the highest-tier PvE gear with ease. So, basically, I don't have a PvP action bar AND I don't have PvP gear, so any PvE person is at a serious disadvantage already. Additionally, I tank in PvE, but a tank spec isn't as viable in PvP (at least not in 1v1 combat), minus maybe a prot Pally who just frustrates you. In general, though, they aren't viable for duels. I'd like to see a common gear set for PvE and PvP. Resilience and PvP Power are such BS and causes more problems than it solves. IMO, get rid of PvP stats and you at least level the playing field slightly. Maybe then there'd be less hate between PvP and PvE.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Naw, PvP players are the content, with little need for PvE content. It's why PvP is tacked on so readily in games. Easier to tweak numbers on classes, than spending millions on new art assets and mechanic designs (let alone making even more quests to do as time and lore sinks).
PvE, the content IS the game and the entertainment. Why raids and quest zones take so much development time, compared to tweaking class numbers for a sense of balance.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Here I agree to the fullest. I remember as a hardcore PvEer I started to dabble in the Rift PvP arenas and really started to have fun... Till I hit 50 and the PvPgeared one-shotted me. PvP-Gear just supports those who are already good and enjoy PvP and excludes casual PvPers and makes their time even harder. I just quitted PvPing with that char, because I don't mind dying, I died alot, but I mind being slaughtered without any chance.
I'm all in for different effects/dmg for PvE/PvP on skills (Anarchy Online cut damage to 1/3rd or by 1/3rd in PvP, can't remember which one), but PvP gear just drives the factions apart...
but if you remove the pvp gear then all of a sudden the best gear available is top raid tier and it just becomes a vicious circle that pretty much craps on both aspects.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
it would be so much more fun if the gear was just cosmetic and did'nt have an impact on actual game play.. sure there needs to be gear looted from grinding etc.. alot of people want goals to achieve and nothing wrong with that.. it just should'nt come with stats attached.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Which is what happened in WoW -- again -- when they forced PvPers to raid to get the best weapons; or PvErs to endure PvP for quest/holiday achieves (For the Children achieve is bad all around, not only because it makes PvErs cannonfodder, the message it sends [bringing virtual kids into PvP combat and being a b-a-d parent in the process]).
When the PvE and PvP lines are blurred, the devs are doing a disservice to their own server classification system, too.
A raider doesn't want to PvP he loves raiding and questing. A PvPer doesn't want to raid because he likes PvPing. It's different play styles and different means of satisfaction. When the two are mixed, no one is happy.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
either make a pure pvp game (which we all know wont make it long or if it does its just a niche game) or learn that u can not make a "balanced" game and deal with it.