"Soon we’ll reveal our first post launch content update, the adventure zone, ‘Craglorn’ which is dedicated to group-based, end-game PvE repeatable content."
Can't really damn them for waiting to release something when it's ready.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think it's more interesting that some people kept denying there would be a cash shop, now those same people are proclaiming that it's fine to have a cash shop.
Never mind that Firor denied there would be one after an article was released a few months ago.
Mounts aren't account services.
And anyone that thinks that the cash shop has no impact on the game obviously hasn't looked at how much it costs to buy that horse with in game currency.
The only reason that horse costs so much in game is to encourage people to spend actual cash to get it. (PS: This is where "ethics" comes in.")
I've seen very few people who argued that there would be no cash shop supporting this move, very few.
"Some" is the operative word.
Why would you find it interesting that a minority portion of users on a forum are hypocrites? It seems like you were trying to make a bigger deal out of it than it is.
This is a direct result of people complaining about Imperial Edition people getting a horse with their pre-purchase. So now we have horses you can buy via a cash shop.
Whoop dee doo. Horses aren't that hard to farm for anyways.
This is a direct result of people complaining about Imperial Edition people getting a horse with their pre-purchase. So now we have horses you can buy via a cash shop.
Whoop dee doo. Horses aren't that hard to farm for anyways.
I think more people complained about the race than the mount, no?
Originally posted by Myrdynn Zenimax's mistake was not making a 3rd purchase option, the Medium Edition. Same as standard+horse avail for 69.99
Actually Zenimax's mistake was placing a race in the CE edition which led to their having to place it in their cash shop and makes it more like a F2Ps cash shop. Their now throwing in a horse afterwards has people really worried because now, it is a F2P cash shop. It contains a mount and pay wall locked content and leaves the door wide open for their adding in everything F2P games have if it becomes successful.
The freeing up of the racial/faction locks for pre-ordering was bad enough for calling into question every reason they gave for using the base design so many hated, to now call into question the very reason for having a subscription, so no cash shop was needed, is a double WTF.
When a developer goes far out of their way to say one thing, doesn't matter if you look at the race/faction lock reasons or the "we wont have a cash shop for anything other than services" reason, and then turns around and does this...
How can anyone trust them anymore? They have already shown they are willing to toss out everything they have said for more money. imagine if they turned around and locked Cyrodiil forcing you to pay to access it for more than an once a week? Would you then become pissed? Why wait. Voice your fear now and stop them before them become empowered to do it.
For many it's the principle of the matter. It's really not that great of a practice to advertise your game as being sub only, only to throw in a cash-shop after selling so many on the game who thought otherwise, because you told them otherwise. It's not that hard to understand.
I hardly bitch about any company on this site, but this even pissed me off.
^^ 100% this.
Originally posted by Herase
i think it more to do with the cash shop it's self than what is being sold. Also that they've backtracked, TWICE in the name of profit. First stating the faction locks were there for a reason and making a fuss when anyone said other wise, but they decided to change that by allowing people to pay to get pass it, and now they i've added a cash shop even though they stated they will not and many people on here defended them, now they turn around and change their mind making a lot of people feel foolish.
Doing this they have lost a lot of players trust, and imho trust is a key factor. esepically if you're expecting people to invest money into your game every month. What's to say they won't add p2w items or doing anything else that may affect the game negativley? because it's clear they're willing to lie in the name of profit and fool their followers.
Just my take on the situation, i was on the fence because of the first 180 but decided to wait and see at launch, becuase i give game a chance, but like i said the game hasn't even launched yet and there already flip flopping, so i think ill hop off
This just makes me think about the "good guy developer" thread made last week
I completely agree with your sentiment. I can't wait to see the article(s) that covers this and if Matt formally makes a statement.
Originally posted by Ossil
The problem with the cash shop and why it's a deal breaker is simply this:
For me, the whole point of playing an MMORPG to progress your character with the fellowship of others. One of the most important ways to progress your character is by obtaining more powerful, cosmetically interesting items. I remember in EverQuest or in Vanilla WoW seeing a more experienced, higher level character with a really cool weapon, armor, or even mount. It took time, effort, and skill to achieve these things. Once you did, you felt accomplishment and you would have memories of questing with friends to obtain the items. It took me forever to get my mid level Cleric class armor in EQ, but once I had it, others would compliment me and ask how to get it. That said, a cash shop allows you to simply buy these things. No skill, time invested, or achievement required and this kills the sense of being unique. So what's point of even playing the game? The cash shop destroys my ENTIRE purpose for playing. I started playing GW2 and thought it was great until I realized I could simply buy elite looking armor from the cash shop... so what's the point? I had such high hopes for ESO, I've been in every beta and thought it might be the modern day EQ I've been waiting 10+ years for. This is soooo disappointing. I will not be playing.
Yep. Matt sold a lot of people on his sub-only plan. I bought it, hook, line, and sinker. All I feel now is supremely disappointed in this turn of events. I think, for me, to pre-order and play ESO I would be sending a message that this decision to do a 180 was ok. There is a level of intentional dishonesty and manipulation that pisses me off. I won't be playing either.
Their cash shop does not just contain cosmetic gear, a lot of update content is locked in the cash shop, P2W items are in the cash shop, access to skills are in the cash shop. The last major update was mostly locked in the cash shop, this means he is correct.
The real experience is the subscriber experience. If you are a subscriber, the cash shop is entirely made up of two things; cosmetic fluff, and stuff you can get from just playing the game. It's fine not to like a game, but trying to create false impressions about it in an attempt to get others to dislike it too is just pitiful.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Mounts are just the first step. Next will be the race they they only included in CE. Followed by other small items such as experience boosts, special armors, special mounts and pets, and items for double loot n such. All these items will be available in game of course. But at an outrageous gold price that it will be much easier for people just to toss an extra couple bucks on their CC.
I can see where people are getting upset. Already with a monthly sub, EVERYTHING in game should be included and accesible by ALL players at the same rate. Already they have decided to take out one race and only give to the ones who are willing to shell out the cash. Now they are gearing up for a cash shop for people to shell out more cash. On top of the box price and monthly sub. And they already know, after selling off the CE as they did, people will still throw them more cash.
There are people who will spend the money, not see it as a big deal. And that is fine. Being on the fence already after seeing the CE joke. Now seeing a cash shop already being put in place. Pretty much counts me out of bothering to invest money in it.
Their cash shop does not just contain cosmetic gear, a lot of update content is locked in the cash shop, P2W items are in the cash shop, access to skills are in the cash shop. The last major update was mostly locked in the cash shop, this means he is correct.
The real experience is the subscriber experience. If you are a subscriber, the cash shop is entirely made up of two things; cosmetic fluff, and stuff you can get from just playing the game. It's fine not to like a game, but trying to create false impressions about it in an attempt to get others to dislike it too is just pitiful.
Congratulations, you once again spin things into ludicrous levels of distortions to make a game look good.
Does the cash shop have the items I stated? Yes. Does it matter if they are not there for subscribers? No, what the person you replied to was correct as am I, those items are in the shop.
A couple of guys buy a horse and the horse breeder will literally drown in gold piles lol. You need a truck to get that amount of gold moved from one place to another if you are planning on buyin more than one horse it would be wise to consider building a railroad to the stables in order to move all that gold to the seller by a train >_>
I know, how unrealistic. Say each gold piece is four ounces. That's 10675 pounds, over five tons. No horse is worth that. They aint gettin my gold, no sirree!!
As I've stated before, this game has many obvious deficiencies which seem geared to a cash shop solution, the exorbitant cost of horses being an obvious one, and the extreme lack of inventory space being another. Mark my words, there will be a cash shop "solution" to the lack of inventory space. Of course, I put the word "solution" in quotes because they will charge an arm and a leg for inventory but still not give you enough, true to the cheapskate, greedy mentality that pervades games like this.
This game is a box price + sub + cash shop hybrid with all the deficiencies of each payment model and none of the benefits.
They know their game blows (except the pvp part, but the design is flawed) so they're trying to cash in on subs then, a year later, "oh look hey like uhm it's F2P because YOU wanted it to be"
Come on, it's a big title. Many will buy it for the title alone. If they wanted to create a great game, not just a cash cow theme-park they would have. Morrowind was the real deal, then look at Oblivion level-scaled mobs, removal of custom spells, Skyrim is all graphics, attributes removed. If anyone thought this would be anything but a cash cow attempt I'd call them delusional.
The whole MMO business is about making people addicted to the game and leeching them dry. Of course it will have a cash-shop. Old school MMORPGs are dead. Thanks WoW. Nowadays you have to be grateful if a game doesn't use that cartoon style. The only old school MMORPG that's still running that remained mostly true to its roots is Meridian 59. Everything post-WoW is a pile of WoW-copytrash. Except niche games like Darkfall or Mortal Online which failed for other reasons.
Didn't they see SWTOR? The endless quest grind. Don't tell me you're not tired of it. Don't tell me that you're actually reading or listening to what NPCs say. Maybe when playing alone if you're really bored. But you're not playing a MMO alone, right? You're in vent, ts3, mumble talking to other people, grouping, raiding. You seek fame and loot and ways to show off your epeen. Even loot is boring in ESO. Ah well. Bring realism back into games, what good is a game when you don't learn anything from playing it? Remember SWG? I've actually learned something in that game that was useful in real life, something about marketing and people. What do you learn in ESO? You mind is filled with surreal crap, death has no consequence, nothing does. Talk shit? Who cares it's a big world no one will remember you a few might ignore you but who cares.
I'd really like to create a real, a good MMORPG on paper without thinking about if it will make a lot of money. I'd love to create a MMORPG I would like to play in the spirit of M59,UO,AC and SWG. No anime crap no cartoon crap, skills that improve only when used, attributes, death, inventory loss, reagents needed for spell casting, terrain negotiation, actual camping, exploration, high community interaction, statues, few really rare highly magical items that can be lost on death (^ death), guild halls that can be raided, game rules modified by player while playing, judical system, crafting and trade, zero economy.
It has a cash shop because: If the game starts to slip, and they need to go to BtP or ftp, it will be in place to handle the situation.
It just makes sense. One of the interesting things about SWTOR was that they were obviously not prepared for the change, and had to scramble to fit everything in. ESO will have the structure available to use as they need, and they can still sell tidbits in the meantime.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by Horusra What big name game around has no cash shop?
What big name game has said for months before release there would be no cash shop, only to turn around with 3 weeks remaining and announce a cash shop?
The existence of the cash shop is less insulting than the months of lying before.
Originally posted by Horusra What big name game around has no cash shop?
What big name game has said for months before release there would be no cash shop, only to turn around with 3 weeks remaining and announce a cash shop?
The existence of the cash shop is less insulting than the months of lying before.
I am yet to see the items that are not piece meal of the imperial edition for people to upgrade their accounts as the imperial edition is upgraded.
Originally posted by Horusra What big name game around has no cash shop?
What big name game has said for months before release there would be no cash shop, only to turn around with 3 weeks remaining and announce a cash shop?
The existence of the cash shop is less insulting than the months of lying before.
I am yet to see the items that are not piece meal of the imperial edition for people to upgrade their accounts as the imperial edition is upgraded.
And as has been pointed out already, it is now a sub based game with a pay wall feature (locked race), with insanely overpriced mounts in game, having mounts in the shop that will allow a quick cash purchase around it smells of F2P nickel and diming.The game already is set up with massive pack restrictions keeping the door open for that to be the next addition to the cash shop, buying more pack space.
I wonder how much fervor would not have come into being if the pre-orders didn't circumvent the race/faction lock and allowing a race no one else will get. As is, it smells like F2P cash shop with the added bonus of having a subscription. Remove those two things and suddenly its just another MMO with basic pre-order bonuses and no reason for anyone to give a damn about the move.
Oh, come on, insanely priced? Based on the first 20 levels? I know when I started Playing WOW I had trouble earning the gold to buy a mount when I could... not being the best trader at the AH. I didn't hear anyone complaining then, it's just a part of the game.
Originally posted by Cliff1963 Oh, come on, insanely priced? Based on the first 20 levels? I know when I started Playing WOW I had trouble earning the gold to buy a mount when I could... not being the best trader at the AH. I didn't hear anyone complaining then, it's just a part of the game.
That has already been touched on in this thread I will let their answers prove you wrong and also there is no AH in this game for you to use to make money.
Congratulations, you once again spin things into ludicrous levels of distortions to make a game look good.
Does the cash shop have the items I stated? Yes. Does it matter if they are not there for subscribers? No, what the person you replied to was correct as am I, those items are in the shop.
[mod edit] The free option in a game that has a subscription is essentially a free trial. The full game is the subscription experience. The only relevant elements in a cash shop are the ones a subscriber doesn't get with the cost of the sub.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by Cliff1963 Oh, come on, insanely priced? Based on the first 20 levels? I know when I started Playing WOW I had trouble earning the gold to buy a mount when I could... not being the best trader at the AH. I didn't hear anyone complaining then, it's just a part of the game.
That has already been touched on in this thread I will let their answers prove you wrong and also there is no AH in this game for you to use to make money.
Well, sorry i didn't read the 46 pages of obviously usefull comments....
Originally posted by Horusra What big name game around has no cash shop?
What big name game has said for months before release there would be no cash shop, only to turn around with 3 weeks remaining and announce a cash shop?
The existence of the cash shop is less insulting than the months of lying before.
are you 100% honest? Have you never told a lie? Have you never changed your mind? Has you mind ever been changed? Do you expect everyone to be perfect?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
Can't really damn them for waiting to release something when it's ready.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Why would you find it interesting that a minority portion of users on a forum are hypocrites? It seems like you were trying to make a bigger deal out of it than it is.
This is a direct result of people complaining about Imperial Edition people getting a horse with their pre-purchase. So now we have horses you can buy via a cash shop.
Whoop dee doo. Horses aren't that hard to farm for anyways.
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
I think more people complained about the race than the mount, no?
What I would have done was just give every newbie a slower less durable horse.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Actually Zenimax's mistake was placing a race in the CE edition which led to their having to place it in their cash shop and makes it more like a F2Ps cash shop. Their now throwing in a horse afterwards has people really worried because now, it is a F2P cash shop. It contains a mount and pay wall locked content and leaves the door wide open for their adding in everything F2P games have if it becomes successful.
The freeing up of the racial/faction locks for pre-ordering was bad enough for calling into question every reason they gave for using the base design so many hated, to now call into question the very reason for having a subscription, so no cash shop was needed, is a double WTF.
When a developer goes far out of their way to say one thing, doesn't matter if you look at the race/faction lock reasons or the "we wont have a cash shop for anything other than services" reason, and then turns around and does this...
How can anyone trust them anymore? They have already shown they are willing to toss out everything they have said for more money. imagine if they turned around and locked Cyrodiil forcing you to pay to access it for more than an once a week? Would you then become pissed? Why wait. Voice your fear now and stop them before them become empowered to do it.
"some" Nice Orwellian reference there.
The real experience is the subscriber experience. If you are a subscriber, the cash shop is entirely made up of two things; cosmetic fluff, and stuff you can get from just playing the game. It's fine not to like a game, but trying to create false impressions about it in an attempt to get others to dislike it too is just pitiful.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Mounts are just the first step. Next will be the race they they only included in CE. Followed by other small items such as experience boosts, special armors, special mounts and pets, and items for double loot n such. All these items will be available in game of course. But at an outrageous gold price that it will be much easier for people just to toss an extra couple bucks on their CC.
I can see where people are getting upset. Already with a monthly sub, EVERYTHING in game should be included and accesible by ALL players at the same rate. Already they have decided to take out one race and only give to the ones who are willing to shell out the cash. Now they are gearing up for a cash shop for people to shell out more cash. On top of the box price and monthly sub. And they already know, after selling off the CE as they did, people will still throw them more cash.
There are people who will spend the money, not see it as a big deal. And that is fine. Being on the fence already after seeing the CE joke. Now seeing a cash shop already being put in place. Pretty much counts me out of bothering to invest money in it.
Congratulations, you once again spin things into ludicrous levels of distortions to make a game look good.
Does the cash shop have the items I stated? Yes. Does it matter if they are not there for subscribers? No, what the person you replied to was correct as am I, those items are in the shop.
I know, how unrealistic. Say each gold piece is four ounces. That's 10675 pounds, over five tons. No horse is worth that. They aint gettin my gold, no sirree!!
As I've stated before, this game has many obvious deficiencies which seem geared to a cash shop solution, the exorbitant cost of horses being an obvious one, and the extreme lack of inventory space being another. Mark my words, there will be a cash shop "solution" to the lack of inventory space. Of course, I put the word "solution" in quotes because they will charge an arm and a leg for inventory but still not give you enough, true to the cheapskate, greedy mentality that pervades games like this.
This game is a box price + sub + cash shop hybrid with all the deficiencies of each payment model and none of the benefits.
This was to be expected.
They know their game blows (except the pvp part, but the design is flawed) so they're trying to cash in on subs then, a year later, "oh look hey like uhm it's F2P because YOU wanted it to be"
Come on, it's a big title. Many will buy it for the title alone. If they wanted to create a great game, not just a cash cow theme-park they would have. Morrowind was the real deal, then look at Oblivion level-scaled mobs, removal of custom spells, Skyrim is all graphics, attributes removed. If anyone thought this would be anything but a cash cow attempt I'd call them delusional.
The whole MMO business is about making people addicted to the game and leeching them dry. Of course it will have a cash-shop. Old school MMORPGs are dead. Thanks WoW. Nowadays you have to be grateful if a game doesn't use that cartoon style. The only old school MMORPG that's still running that remained mostly true to its roots is Meridian 59. Everything post-WoW is a pile of WoW-copytrash. Except niche games like Darkfall or Mortal Online which failed for other reasons.
Didn't they see SWTOR? The endless quest grind. Don't tell me you're not tired of it. Don't tell me that you're actually reading or listening to what NPCs say. Maybe when playing alone if you're really bored. But you're not playing a MMO alone, right? You're in vent, ts3, mumble talking to other people, grouping, raiding. You seek fame and loot and ways to show off your epeen. Even loot is boring in ESO. Ah well. Bring realism back into games, what good is a game when you don't learn anything from playing it? Remember SWG? I've actually learned something in that game that was useful in real life, something about marketing and people. What do you learn in ESO? You mind is filled with surreal crap, death has no consequence, nothing does. Talk shit? Who cares it's a big world no one will remember you a few might ignore you but who cares.
I'd really like to create a real, a good MMORPG on paper without thinking about if it will make a lot of money. I'd love to create a MMORPG I would like to play in the spirit of M59,UO,AC and SWG. No anime crap no cartoon crap, skills that improve only when used, attributes, death, inventory loss, reagents needed for spell casting, terrain negotiation, actual camping, exploration, high community interaction, statues, few really rare highly magical items that can be lost on death (^ death), guild halls that can be raided, game rules modified by player while playing, judical system, crafting and trade, zero economy.
It has a cash shop because: If the game starts to slip, and they need to go to BtP or ftp, it will be in place to handle the situation.
It just makes sense. One of the interesting things about SWTOR was that they were obviously not prepared for the change, and had to scramble to fit everything in. ESO will have the structure available to use as they need, and they can still sell tidbits in the meantime.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
What big name game has said for months before release there would be no cash shop, only to turn around with 3 weeks remaining and announce a cash shop?
The existence of the cash shop is less insulting than the months of lying before.
I am yet to see the items that are not piece meal of the imperial edition for people to upgrade their accounts as the imperial edition is upgraded.
And as has been pointed out already, it is now a sub based game with a pay wall feature (locked race), with insanely overpriced mounts in game, having mounts in the shop that will allow a quick cash purchase around it smells of F2P nickel and diming.The game already is set up with massive pack restrictions keeping the door open for that to be the next addition to the cash shop, buying more pack space.
I wonder how much fervor would not have come into being if the pre-orders didn't circumvent the race/faction lock and allowing a race no one else will get. As is, it smells like F2P cash shop with the added bonus of having a subscription. Remove those two things and suddenly its just another MMO with basic pre-order bonuses and no reason for anyone to give a damn about the move.
That has already been touched on in this thread I will let their answers prove you wrong and also there is no AH in this game for you to use to make money.
[mod edit] The free option in a game that has a subscription is essentially a free trial. The full game is the subscription experience. The only relevant elements in a cash shop are the ones a subscriber doesn't get with the cost of the sub.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Well, sorry i didn't read the 46 pages of obviously usefull comments....
are you 100% honest? Have you never told a lie? Have you never changed your mind? Has you mind ever been changed? Do you expect everyone to be perfect?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"