It is an example of what happens when mod makers have access to the kind of information that Zenimax took out of the mod api. Namely that the game becomes playing the mods instead of playing the game.
That's all that really needs to be said here. Sums it up.
your comparing a game that has a cluttered UI to start with with 40-50 spells and what not to a game that at most lets you have 6x2 + quick slots that only gives you a compass and HP/stam/magica bars. What most people are asking for is the option to see:
Buffs and Debuffs, on your self, group
Debuffs on enemies.
Loot in chat.
Combat logs.
Display all your stats (spell pen, Cost reduce)
Cast bar for your self.
Wow as just one example of many many games that come with ALL these features build in the base UI.
If that stuff is in the base UI, but not available to mod makers, do you really think there would be no complaints? The people who are most against this change want a competitive advantage. If having this information available in the mod api gives a competitive advantage, then it shouldn't be there.
Its not in the Base UI that's the whole reason people made the Addons in the first place, The lack of basic information. The top tier Competitive guilds all said last night on twitch they don't want the advantage but just the basic information the game lacks that is required to make informed decisions about builds and functioning synergy's between passives and skills to even check if they are even working.
Yeah. I've been in one of those top tier competitive guilds. If the advantage is available, they want it. Watch what happens if the UI has the information and the mod api doesn't have access to it. Same whining.
That said, maybe the game isn't about being the fastest person to max level, or the first guild to down boss X. Maybe it's about seeing boss X and enjoying the fight.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
Tools supplement human intelligence they don't replace it. When they do replace it bad things tend to happen and that's what makes them crutches. There where a number of features in the add ons in ESO that created a significant advantage to those who used them and it was creating a add-on arms race of sorts in PVP to rush to get the best add ons. That would have spilled over to PVE sooner or later as well btw. I have not really looked deeply into what was removed but from what I have read you will still be able to add more information and elements to your UI you just won't be able to autopilot the game with them.
I for one like the minimalist UI of ESO. I played vanilla WoW, and at release there was not much (if anything?) out for mods. I was one of the top 2 healers in one of the top couple of guilds on my server. We were regularly running....uh, the volcano raid. Been so long I've forgotten the name. Nobody on our server had actually beaten it in full yet, and we were only up against one other guild for the race to beat each successive boss.
It was hard. But it was fun. Then we got the first major mod, which was the one that better showed your entire raid groups health bars on your screen. It became a necessity to have this if you wanted to join in the raid. YES, it made healing a HECK of a lot easier, but there was still a lot of challenge involved in positioning, timing, and watching for debuffs the boss cast on you (You are the BOMB!).
Now wow has a crazy amount of addon info. It stopped being fun for me altogether long ago because it stopped being about the game and became all about the addons.
THAT ALL SAID - there are a few fairly basic things common to almost every RPG (MMO or not) which are lacking in ESO, which would be rather nice to have. Something showing buffs/debuffs on your toon, and debuffs you've cast on your enemy, while not 100% required, would be pretty nice to have as default available options.
I really do not want to HAVE to download addons in order to be ALLOWED to play certain content (by other players).
So while I'm entirely certain the addon situation will evolve as time goes by, I think I like it how it is now.
Also, as one other person pointed out: there's options in the settings to make your action bar permanent, and all sorts of options for the showing of health/magicka bars. And your food buff timer can be seen on your character screen at the bottom. As a long-duration buff, I don't mind having to hit "c" to check the remaining time on my food buff. I don't know if short-term ability-based buffs/debuffs show there as well or not, but being short term and usually in combat, it is not really feasible to have to open the character screen to check that info.
Definitely not cancelling my pre-order. But I also am on the fence about how long I think this game will last.
As with any of these conversations, this is my personal opinion and I absolutely acknowledge that others will disagree with me. I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them.
Originally posted by Giffen This is an absolutely horrible change. The default UI is one of the worst ever seen in MMO history, addons were the only thing making it bearable.
Wrong... If you want graphs and flow charts on your UI just play WOw or Wildstar... You can sit there and crunch numbers until your heart is content...
API functionality should simply limited to aesthetic modifications on your own screen. Which is the direction they are clearly taking.
I would have to disagree with you, The base UI should just have to options that every other MMO is history has had over the last 15 years. If you want to not have something then you, your self should just turn it off. don't force others to play the way you play it. We all have equal rights to play the way we want to play. Make it Fair, but GIVE US INFORMATION.
So basically people bitch and complain that everything out there is a "clone" or has "no inovation" and then a game comes out that doesn't adhere to the norm and thinks outside the box and now people bitch and complain that it not like every MMO made in the last 15 years...
that would probably be valid if everything else about the game wasnt overdone and overplayed.. standard and mundane... but seeing as thats the case with the game, let people access what information they find helpful for them to play, i dont care either way, mods, no mods, whatever... but the point of if you get to play how you want, let other people do the same stands, whats good for one is good for another
Originally posted by Otakun I've been testing a lot of the addons people have made on the PTS server. Seems like I now have more work to do testing them all over again to see if they are even worth keeping anymore. Though I have to say, people seem to have a vast imagination on what these addons actually do in the game.
according the half the anti addon crowd... the addons are basically bots, that target low health players and execute all your abilities in perfect functionality for you.
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
If your mechanic needs a computer to know that your breaks are due, it's a bad mechanic.
Yeah cause your breaks are in the engine ...
It's still as irrelevant. Every mechanics have access to that now a day, you could say it's their basic UI. They don't use it to get an advantage over other mechanics, simply to be get the information needed to do the job.
Everything that is needed should be in the basic UI.
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
If your mechanic needs a computer to know that your breaks are due, it's a bad mechanic.
Yeah cause your breaks are in the engine ...
It's still as irrelevant. Every mechanics have access to that now a day, you could say it's their basic UI. They don't use it to get an advantage over other mechanics, simply to be get the information needed to do the job.
Everything that is needed should be in the basic UI.
No, their basic UI is they own eyes and hands. A computer is something they have to go out and get, they are not given it when they decide to become a mechanic. Plus just because you don't want to understand doesn't make it irrelevant.
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
If your mechanic needs a computer to know that your breaks are due, it's a bad mechanic.
Yeah cause your breaks are in the engine ...
It's still as irrelevant. Every mechanics have access to that now a day, you could say it's their basic UI. They don't use it to get an advantage over other mechanics, simply to be get the information needed to do the job.
Everything that is needed should be in the basic UI.
No, their basic UI is they own eyes and hands. A computer is something they have to go out and get, they are not given it when they decide to become a mechanic. Plus just because you don't want to understand doesn't make it irrelevant.
Holy fcuk are we really turning this into a mechanic/scan tool discussion...
This is so irrelevant to this discussion... I am sorry you can't go to Curse and get addons for your Snapon Solus diagnostic tool...
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
If your mechanic needs a computer to know that your breaks are due, it's a bad mechanic.
Yeah cause your breaks are in the engine ...
It's still as irrelevant. Every mechanics have access to that now a day, you could say it's their basic UI. They don't use it to get an advantage over other mechanics, simply to be get the information needed to do the job.
Everything that is needed should be in the basic UI.
No, their basic UI is they own eyes and hands. A computer is something they have to go out and get, they are not given it when they decide to become a mechanic. Plus just because you don't want to understand doesn't make it irrelevant.
hehe had to laugh at that ... I am sorry you don't understand the difference between an unfair advantage and a basic tool.
Now where did that thread go with someone telling me I was reading too much into what the devs said when this site asked them about the add-on controversy.... another missed opportunity to say "I told you so"
the difference in the information on opponents available between add-on and plain was ridiculous. It was either this or make the same info available through the default UI...which, actually, I would have preferred.
feel free to say i told you so, i dont think it's quite over yet... i think what many people are saying about it being a knee jerk reaction is pretty close.. and it's yet to see more modifications post launch.
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
If your mechanic needs a computer to know that your breaks are due, it's a bad mechanic.
Yeah cause your breaks are in the engine ...
It's still as irrelevant. Every mechanics have access to that now a day, you could say it's their basic UI. They don't use it to get an advantage over other mechanics, simply to be get the information needed to do the job.
Everything that is needed should be in the basic UI.
No, their basic UI is they own eyes and hands. A computer is something they have to go out and get, they are not given it when they decide to become a mechanic. Plus just because you don't want to understand doesn't make it irrelevant.
hehe had to laugh at that ... I am sorry you don't understand the difference between an unfair advantage and a basic tool.
I've played with the addons for months, pretty sure they aren't this GGIWIN button that people keep acting like they are. It's more like people who are just coat tailing others opinions on it or tested them for the first 5 levels during a beta weekend and think they are some kind of keyboard script for bots. Plus not all addons give this "unfair advantage" people complain about. I am defending addons in general which are what people are bashing here. So, I think you are the one who doesn't understand what is going on here.
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
Bad example for your case, it's a mechanics JOB to find whats wrong with your car, if other mechanics have the tools to find problems in your car quicker and more easily, the mechanic that have no tools will start to lose clients due to his now ineffective ways. This could be applied to the game, if we allow people to have the tools to easily find and correct any errors they are making we will stop looking for the best healer to raid with us, we will start looking for the healer with the best tools/add-ons. Thats why people don't want too much information on add-ons, it reduces the skill cap, it becomes the norm for raiding to have add-ons.
You might also argue that having add-ons don't completely remove the skill cap, that you still need quick thinking and decision making skills, it's true, but you are basically allienating all the players that don't want to bother using add-ons, they might be half-assed players, they might play bad, but they are having fun on their own way. The majority of the players will be casual players, if you want to play with the best players in the game you will have to make friends and meet new people.
I agree that some add-ons should be allowed, it greatly helps to know what are your best abilites and which synergises the best with other abilites. But buffs and debuffs on screen is more debatable, if ZOS does things right you should not need to have a buffs list to know whats happening to you. Right now it feels more "organic" because you can notice if you have buffs and debuffs by looking at yoru character's stamina/health/magicka bars or the current animation, there are "cues" everywhere.
Most addons (not all) are a crutch to improve your play style.
I'm glad that they got rid of them. I've been a healer, tank and stealthy character in games ranging from DAoC all the way to WoW. After playing WoW for so long and returning to DAoC - I realized how horrible of a player I became due to all of the addons. As a healer, WoW became a game of wack-a-mole. I no longer watched the game. Instead, I was watching a grid and clicking on each of the nameplates for heals, buffs, cures, etc. Sure, I had to make quick, logical choices of making sure that I left-clicked for a short heal, right-click for a long heal, held down ctl+left click for a cure, etc, etc. But - something was lost. I wasn't playing the game itself. Everyone said I was doing a great job - but to me... if this is what a good healer in WoW is, it's a really crappy way to play.
As much as I hear the saying, Eve Online is a game of spreadsheets - WoW was much closer to that analogy than Eve Online as a healer. To make matters worse, it was difficult to keep up as people would always stretch healers thin, make fool-hearty decisions (i.e. leaning on the healers) and use DPS/Healing meters to judge my performance of spreadsheet wack-a-mole.
ESO has stripped it back to the bare minimum. At some point, after release, some of this stuff may creep back in. Who knows. But, for the time being, I will have fun playing the game again.
I'm okay with icons of the core game itself showing buffs/debuffs rather than animations. But, I don't think anyone should need an addon to do this for them. But - after playing wow for a long time, I would rather cool effects and animations rather than icons.
No one uses addons as a "crutch" they use it as information to make better decisions, and to figure out what their mistakes were made.
I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. Not only are some addons used as a crutch, they are actually surgically fused to some peoples legs. I agree that the basic UI should have a little more info i.e. my buffs and such. But i'm sure this type of thing will be allowed at some point. Other than that I care less about addons.
Do you go to your mechanic and tell him he uses a crutch for using computer to check your engine problem instead of figuring it out himself? Using tools isn't a crutch, it's called being human.
If your mechanic needs a computer to know that your breaks are due, it's a bad mechanic.
Yeah cause your breaks are in the engine ...
It's still as irrelevant. Every mechanics have access to that now a day, you could say it's their basic UI. They don't use it to get an advantage over other mechanics, simply to be get the information needed to do the job.
Everything that is needed should be in the basic UI.
No, their basic UI is they own eyes and hands. A computer is something they have to go out and get, they are not given it when they decide to become a mechanic. Plus just because you don't want to understand doesn't make it irrelevant.
hehe had to laugh at that ... I am sorry you don't understand the difference between an unfair advantage and a basic tool.
I've played with the addons for months, pretty sure they aren't this GGIWIN button that people keep acting like they are. It's more like people who are just coat tailing others opinions on it or tested them for the first 5 levels during a beta weekend and think they are some kind of keyboard script for bots. Plus not all addons give this "unfair advantage" people complain about. I am defending addons in general which are what people are bashing here. So, I think you are the one who doesn't understand what is going on here.
Being told what spell your opponent is casting over not being told.. yea unfair advantage
Knowing your opponent stamina/magicka level over not seeing it .. yea unfair advantage
Werewolf / vampire status .. unfair advantage
I don't care if they add those in the basic UI, I just want everyone to go with the same information.
You feel that you need more than the basic UI gives ? Send feedback to Zenimax
You need to test something 5 months before you know if it gives you an advantage ?
Loot addons, don't care. And people reporting it's still working
Buffs on self, I think it should be added in the UI.
Every other stats not in the char screen can be calculated, would still be nice to have it all in there anyway.
They blocked at large, and will probably open up some in the next weeks. But it was way too open before.
It's simple you either design you game to give all the information or you don't. There shouldn't be a need for addons to give you extra bonus.
Now where did that thread go with someone telling me I was reading too much into what the devs said when this site asked them about the add-on controversy.... another missed opportunity to say "I told you so"
the difference in the information on opponents available between add-on and plain was ridiculous. It was either this or make the same info available through the default UI...which, actually, I would have preferred.
feel free to say i told you so, i dont think it's quite over yet... i think what many people are saying about it being a knee jerk reaction is pretty close.. and it's yet to see more modifications post launch.
You're predicting changes to the game post launch? What a radical idea!
If you guys hadn't spent the past month trying to justify every single thing it was possible to do with the API as it was-- including having information about PVP opponents they couldn't have about you without add-ons, maybe the reaction wouldn't have gone as far as it did.
All I hear now is a lot of back pedaling saying things like "OK, fine... take away the information about the other guys' stamina, buffs and ability use but what about being able to see our own? That's just going too far!"
If that's what had been said a month or two weeks ago instead of trying to rationalize and defend every frikking thing add-ons could do, you might just have gotten your wish.
I don't think most people, myself included, had any problem whatsoever with being able to see your own damage numbers, buffs, etc. You guys have only yourselves to blame for wanting it all... L2Lobby.
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
No, No, No and NO, those of you who want a screen facial turning this game into all other MMO's ruining my experience by pretty much forcing me to download the same screen facial clutter to be on par with those that have the addons can just not play, there are many MMO's on the market that will give the tools and addons you want but not this one.
Look Below, see that mess? Nah I'm good, you can have that but not me.
wow really... because all people playing WoW have super cluttered and retarded UI's
none of them could possibly look like this?
thats a rediuclous argument that all addons make thing cluttered and illegible.
No, No, No and NO, those of you who want a screen facial turning this game into all other MMO's ruining my experience by pretty much forcing me to download the same screen facial clutter to be on par with those that have the addons can just not play, there are many MMO's on the market that will give the tools and addons you want but not this one.
Look Below, see that mess? Nah I'm good, you can have that but not me.
wow really... because all people playing WoW have super cluttered and retarded UI's
none of them could possibly look like this?
thats a rediuclous argument that all addons make thing cluttered and illegible.
Now where did that thread go with someone telling me I was reading too much into what the devs said when this site asked them about the add-on controversy.... another missed opportunity to say "I told you so"
the difference in the information on opponents available between add-on and plain was ridiculous. It was either this or make the same info available through the default UI...which, actually, I would have preferred.
feel free to say i told you so, i dont think it's quite over yet... i think what many people are saying about it being a knee jerk reaction is pretty close.. and it's yet to see more modifications post launch.
You're predicting changes to the game post launch? What a radical idea!
If you guys hadn't spent the past month trying to justify every single thing it was possible to do with the API as it was-- including having information about PVP opponents they couldn't have about you without add-ons, maybe the reaction wouldn't have gone as far as it did.
All I hear now is a lot of back pedaling saying things like "OK, fine... take away the information about the other guys' stamina, buffs and ability use but what about being able to see our own? That's just going too far!"
If that's what had been said a month or two weeks ago instead of trying to rationalize and defend every frikking thing add-ons could do, you might just have gotten your wish.
I don't think most people, myself included, had any problem whatsoever with being able to see your own damage numbers, buffs, etc. You guys have only yourselves to blame for wanting it all... L2Lobby.
sorry, i still think it's justified, i dont see having a players magika and stamina available in PvP when we're talking about 100;s of people in simultaneous combat being a BIG advantage, when your target is bound to get ran infront of and you lose them.. with collision in now and all business, and i will still use FTC BECAUSE i prefer their display of MY OWN HP / Magika / Stamina then how the stock UI offers the information. ALSO i'm not at all saying.. "take it away but give me this at least" addons have not been removed completely just funcationality scaled back and i'll still use ones i find functional for my QOL that are still working. ZOS is free to do as they please and i wont ask them to give me features they dont feel necessary, just like i wasnt bitching about them having an open API that they felt was necessary, the fact is.. i honestly dont care either way.. as i stated multiple times in the other thread. thats the difference between you and i... for you it was NO ADDON INFORMATION OR GTFO.. for me i didnt care either way, feel free to go back and read my previous posts on the subject.
i honestly dont care what you think of how it looks... but it uses 1/5 of my screen which is minimal in my opinion, leaving the whole over 4/5 open to gameplay, and it's not at all cluttered and when there is no raid group there is just a space where those frames are.. nothing in there nice and empty.. fact is, it's not cluttered or messy, which was the point
i honestly dont care what you think of how it looks... but it uses 1/5 of my screen which is minimal in my opinion, leaving the whole over 4/5 open to gameplay, and it's not at all cluttered and when there is no raid group there is just a space where those frames are.. nothing in there nice and empty.. fact is, it's not cluttered or messy, which was the point
You have a big screen, what about those with small monitors?
No, No, No and NO, those of you who want a screen facial turning this game into all other MMO's ruining my experience by pretty much forcing me to download the same screen facial clutter to be on par with those that have the addons can just not play, there are many MMO's on the market that will give the tools and addons you want but not this one.
Look Below, see that mess? Nah I'm good, you can have that but not me.
wow really... because all people playing WoW have super cluttered and retarded UI's
none of them could possibly look like this?
thats a rediuclous argument that all addons make thing cluttered and illegible.
But.. but.. it supports the argument that addons are the devil and should not be allowed in any MMO because they are ugly and fundamentally change us all into mindless addon junkies who can't play a game without them. My WoW addons were minimal and never looked anywhere near what the original picture showed. While I do not support addons generally and stay away from them for the most part, I will say that I found ESO's UI pretty bad so the idea of some UI tweaking addons were appealing to me. Everyone saying addons are a crutch and that anyone wanting them in game are only looking for some unfair advantage may want to get down off that high horse. Some of us just don't like the UI. I know I know.. go play other games and all that.
i honestly dont care what you think of how it looks... but it uses 1/5 of my screen which is minimal in my opinion, leaving the whole over 4/5 open to gameplay, and it's not at all cluttered and when there is no raid group there is just a space where those frames are.. nothing in there nice and empty.. fact is, it's not cluttered or messy, which was the point
The point being that unfortunately you have been trained to play a certain way for sol long that to play any other way seems like a foreign concept.
You're obviously a fan of the game with your fancy sig and all... Just need to play like the rest of us or find something else.
Comments
Yeah. I've been in one of those top tier competitive guilds. If the advantage is available, they want it. Watch what happens if the UI has the information and the mod api doesn't have access to it. Same whining.
That said, maybe the game isn't about being the fastest person to max level, or the first guild to down boss X. Maybe it's about seeing boss X and enjoying the fight.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Tools supplement human intelligence they don't replace it. When they do replace it bad things tend to happen and that's what makes them crutches. There where a number of features in the add ons in ESO that created a significant advantage to those who used them and it was creating a add-on arms race of sorts in PVP to rush to get the best add ons. That would have spilled over to PVE sooner or later as well btw. I have not really looked deeply into what was removed but from what I have read you will still be able to add more information and elements to your UI you just won't be able to autopilot the game with them.
I for one like the minimalist UI of ESO. I played vanilla WoW, and at release there was not much (if anything?) out for mods. I was one of the top 2 healers in one of the top couple of guilds on my server. We were regularly running....uh, the volcano raid. Been so long I've forgotten the name. Nobody on our server had actually beaten it in full yet, and we were only up against one other guild for the race to beat each successive boss.
It was hard. But it was fun. Then we got the first major mod, which was the one that better showed your entire raid groups health bars on your screen. It became a necessity to have this if you wanted to join in the raid. YES, it made healing a HECK of a lot easier, but there was still a lot of challenge involved in positioning, timing, and watching for debuffs the boss cast on you (You are the BOMB!).
Now wow has a crazy amount of addon info. It stopped being fun for me altogether long ago because it stopped being about the game and became all about the addons.
THAT ALL SAID - there are a few fairly basic things common to almost every RPG (MMO or not) which are lacking in ESO, which would be rather nice to have. Something showing buffs/debuffs on your toon, and debuffs you've cast on your enemy, while not 100% required, would be pretty nice to have as default available options.
I really do not want to HAVE to download addons in order to be ALLOWED to play certain content (by other players).
So while I'm entirely certain the addon situation will evolve as time goes by, I think I like it how it is now.
Also, as one other person pointed out: there's options in the settings to make your action bar permanent, and all sorts of options for the showing of health/magicka bars. And your food buff timer can be seen on your character screen at the bottom. As a long-duration buff, I don't mind having to hit "c" to check the remaining time on my food buff. I don't know if short-term ability-based buffs/debuffs show there as well or not, but being short term and usually in combat, it is not really feasible to have to open the character screen to check that info.
Definitely not cancelling my pre-order. But I also am on the fence about how long I think this game will last.
As with any of these conversations, this is my personal opinion and I absolutely acknowledge that others will disagree with me. I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them.
that would probably be valid if everything else about the game wasnt overdone and overplayed.. standard and mundane... but seeing as thats the case with the game, let people access what information they find helpful for them to play, i dont care either way, mods, no mods, whatever... but the point of if you get to play how you want, let other people do the same stands, whats good for one is good for another
according the half the anti addon crowd... the addons are basically bots, that target low health players and execute all your abilities in perfect functionality for you.
It's still as irrelevant. Every mechanics have access to that now a day, you could say it's their basic UI. They don't use it to get an advantage over other mechanics, simply to be get the information needed to do the job.
Everything that is needed should be in the basic UI.
No, their basic UI is they own eyes and hands. A computer is something they have to go out and get, they are not given it when they decide to become a mechanic. Plus just because you don't want to understand doesn't make it irrelevant.
Holy fcuk are we really turning this into a mechanic/scan tool discussion...
This is so irrelevant to this discussion... I am sorry you can't go to Curse and get addons for your Snapon Solus diagnostic tool...
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Bad decision on zeni's part with this one.
hehe had to laugh at that ... I am sorry you don't understand the difference between an unfair advantage and a basic tool.
feel free to say i told you so, i dont think it's quite over yet... i think what many people are saying about it being a knee jerk reaction is pretty close.. and it's yet to see more modifications post launch.
I've played with the addons for months, pretty sure they aren't this GGIWIN button that people keep acting like they are. It's more like people who are just coat tailing others opinions on it or tested them for the first 5 levels during a beta weekend and think they are some kind of keyboard script for bots. Plus not all addons give this "unfair advantage" people complain about. I am defending addons in general which are what people are bashing here. So, I think you are the one who doesn't understand what is going on here.
Bad example for your case, it's a mechanics JOB to find whats wrong with your car, if other mechanics have the tools to find problems in your car quicker and more easily, the mechanic that have no tools will start to lose clients due to his now ineffective ways. This could be applied to the game, if we allow people to have the tools to easily find and correct any errors they are making we will stop looking for the best healer to raid with us, we will start looking for the healer with the best tools/add-ons. Thats why people don't want too much information on add-ons, it reduces the skill cap, it becomes the norm for raiding to have add-ons.
You might also argue that having add-ons don't completely remove the skill cap, that you still need quick thinking and decision making skills, it's true, but you are basically allienating all the players that don't want to bother using add-ons, they might be half-assed players, they might play bad, but they are having fun on their own way. The majority of the players will be casual players, if you want to play with the best players in the game you will have to make friends and meet new people.
I agree that some add-ons should be allowed, it greatly helps to know what are your best abilites and which synergises the best with other abilites. But buffs and debuffs on screen is more debatable, if ZOS does things right you should not need to have a buffs list to know whats happening to you. Right now it feels more "organic" because you can notice if you have buffs and debuffs by looking at yoru character's stamina/health/magicka bars or the current animation, there are "cues" everywhere.
Most addons (not all) are a crutch to improve your play style.
I'm glad that they got rid of them. I've been a healer, tank and stealthy character in games ranging from DAoC all the way to WoW. After playing WoW for so long and returning to DAoC - I realized how horrible of a player I became due to all of the addons. As a healer, WoW became a game of wack-a-mole. I no longer watched the game. Instead, I was watching a grid and clicking on each of the nameplates for heals, buffs, cures, etc. Sure, I had to make quick, logical choices of making sure that I left-clicked for a short heal, right-click for a long heal, held down ctl+left click for a cure, etc, etc. But - something was lost. I wasn't playing the game itself. Everyone said I was doing a great job - but to me... if this is what a good healer in WoW is, it's a really crappy way to play.
As much as I hear the saying, Eve Online is a game of spreadsheets - WoW was much closer to that analogy than Eve Online as a healer. To make matters worse, it was difficult to keep up as people would always stretch healers thin, make fool-hearty decisions (i.e. leaning on the healers) and use DPS/Healing meters to judge my performance of spreadsheet wack-a-mole.
ESO has stripped it back to the bare minimum. At some point, after release, some of this stuff may creep back in. Who knows. But, for the time being, I will have fun playing the game again.
I'm okay with icons of the core game itself showing buffs/debuffs rather than animations. But, I don't think anyone should need an addon to do this for them. But - after playing wow for a long time, I would rather cool effects and animations rather than icons.
Being told what spell your opponent is casting over not being told.. yea unfair advantage
Knowing your opponent stamina/magicka level over not seeing it .. yea unfair advantage
Werewolf / vampire status .. unfair advantage
I don't care if they add those in the basic UI, I just want everyone to go with the same information.
You feel that you need more than the basic UI gives ? Send feedback to Zenimax
You need to test something 5 months before you know if it gives you an advantage ?
Loot addons, don't care. And people reporting it's still working
Buffs on self, I think it should be added in the UI.
Every other stats not in the char screen can be calculated, would still be nice to have it all in there anyway.
They blocked at large, and will probably open up some in the next weeks. But it was way too open before.
It's simple you either design you game to give all the information or you don't. There shouldn't be a need for addons to give you extra bonus.
You're predicting changes to the game post launch? What a radical idea!
If you guys hadn't spent the past month trying to justify every single thing it was possible to do with the API as it was-- including having information about PVP opponents they couldn't have about you without add-ons, maybe the reaction wouldn't have gone as far as it did.
All I hear now is a lot of back pedaling saying things like "OK, fine... take away the information about the other guys' stamina, buffs and ability use but what about being able to see our own? That's just going too far!"
If that's what had been said a month or two weeks ago instead of trying to rationalize and defend every frikking thing add-ons could do, you might just have gotten your wish.
I don't think most people, myself included, had any problem whatsoever with being able to see your own damage numbers, buffs, etc. You guys have only yourselves to blame for wanting it all... L2Lobby.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
wow really... because all people playing WoW have super cluttered and retarded UI's
none of them could possibly look like this?
thats a rediuclous argument that all addons make thing cluttered and illegible.
Honestly i only care about combat scrolling txt ~don't care about the damage, just like to know i hit my target~
imo add-ons are a major hand-holder, like mini-maps. If u focus on those things in ESO u miss out on the major aspects of the game.
If its a deal breaker for you, wait for wildstar or go play an older game.
i love ESO just pissed they nerf xp on mob kills, and lowered xp for exploring.
Replace the word foot with UI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wcry66DoOE
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
sorry, i still think it's justified, i dont see having a players magika and stamina available in PvP when we're talking about 100;s of people in simultaneous combat being a BIG advantage, when your target is bound to get ran infront of and you lose them.. with collision in now and all business, and i will still use FTC BECAUSE i prefer their display of MY OWN HP / Magika / Stamina then how the stock UI offers the information. ALSO i'm not at all saying.. "take it away but give me this at least" addons have not been removed completely just funcationality scaled back and i'll still use ones i find functional for my QOL that are still working. ZOS is free to do as they please and i wont ask them to give me features they dont feel necessary, just like i wasnt bitching about them having an open API that they felt was necessary, the fact is.. i honestly dont care either way.. as i stated multiple times in the other thread. thats the difference between you and i... for you it was NO ADDON INFORMATION OR GTFO.. for me i didnt care either way, feel free to go back and read my previous posts on the subject.
This may have single-handedly saved this game.
VERY NICE!
You stay sassy!
i honestly dont care what you think of how it looks... but it uses 1/5 of my screen which is minimal in my opinion, leaving the whole over 4/5 open to gameplay, and it's not at all cluttered and when there is no raid group there is just a space where those frames are.. nothing in there nice and empty.. fact is, it's not cluttered or messy, which was the point
You have a big screen, what about those with small monitors?
But.. but.. it supports the argument that addons are the devil and should not be allowed in any MMO because they are ugly and fundamentally change us all into mindless addon junkies who can't play a game without them. My WoW addons were minimal and never looked anywhere near what the original picture showed. While I do not support addons generally and stay away from them for the most part, I will say that I found ESO's UI pretty bad so the idea of some UI tweaking addons were appealing to me. Everyone saying addons are a crutch and that anyone wanting them in game are only looking for some unfair advantage may want to get down off that high horse. Some of us just don't like the UI. I know I know.. go play other games and all that.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
The point being that unfortunately you have been trained to play a certain way for sol long that to play any other way seems like a foreign concept.
You're obviously a fan of the game with your fancy sig and all... Just need to play like the rest of us or find something else.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...