So if I don't have time to play, I should just not play?
Well how are you going to actually play if you dont have time in the first place lmao.
The implied sentence here would be:
'If I don't have time to play according to made-up, self-imposed rules as stated by the OP, I should just not play'.
I have time to play, if that means sometimes paying a few bucks to see content in a game I'd like to see. Is i a form of instant-gratification? Maybe. Is it 'being lazy'? No.
In light of the 'cheaters vs scrubs' discussion, some reading material:
I tend to need a minute to edit my post. Cut me some slack ;P
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
So if I don't have time to play, I should just not play?
Well how are you going to actually play if you dont have time in the first place lmao.
EDIT:
What you want to do is just cherry-picking the best things of everything. You have to realize that some stuff need dedication that in return rewards you for said dedication.
There are things where this is totally acceptable and things where it's not. Games are one of those since you de-value (directly or indirectly) the experience of the people around you.
Yes, I do understand things need dedication. I try and excell at what I do in real life (be it my job, be it tabletennis,...). But then besides that there is gaming, which to me is outside of real life. So yes, I take from it what I like, and leave the rest. (like the term cherrypicking, fits the situation perfectly).
And then I turn of my computer and get back to down to it in real life. For in my hobby, I do feel like having my cake and eating it To me games are really just a light form of entertainment for when I don't want/need to try better myself all the time. I do understand this cherrypicking might rub people the wrong way, but that is only because it's the way we look at games. (play-to-win vs play-for-fun)
I only thought it ironic that he calls people like me lazy, as it implies that gaming for hours a day is somehow the poster-boy image of pristine behaviour.
Originally posted by kaiser3282 It's only cheating if it is against the rules according to the company running the game. If the game contains systems which allow currency exchange, then obviously it isn't cheating.Your own personal beliefs / morals / preferences do not determine what is cheating. You do not make the rules for the game.If the NFL, MLB, etc said it is not against the rules to use steroids and stuff, then it would not be cheating. It is only cheating because, for now at least, it is against their rules. Would people look down upon it? Most likely at first.. Would it be cheating? No.
Well said. It is only cheating if it breaks the rules.
What the OP is talking about is morality. That will vary with every individual player. Most of the time, for "someone else", it is cheating. When the player does it, it is "playing smarter"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by kaiser3282 It's only cheating if it is against the rules according to the company running the game. If the game contains systems which allow currency exchange, then obviously it isn't cheating.
Your own personal beliefs / morals / preferences do not determine what is cheating. You do not make the rules for the game.
If the NFL, MLB, etc said it is not against the rules to use steroids and stuff, then it would not be cheating. It is only cheating because, for now at least, it is against their rules. Would people look down upon it? Most likely at first.. Would it be cheating? No.
Well said. It is only cheating if it breaks the rules.
What the OP is talking about is morality. That will vary with every individual player. Most of the time, for "someone else", it is cheating. When the player does it, it is "playing smarter"
If it breaks the rules then it is cheating, definetly. Not argueing.
If it is against the rules and you justify breaking them by "your own morality" then it is still breaking the rules.
If it is against the rules then it is not considered playing smart.
If it is within the rules and you've put thought into your actions and therefore gain an advantage it is "playing smarter".
Just neutraly wanted to point this out incase someone draws weird conclusions.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
Originally posted by Scypheroth Voqar you sir have hit the nail on the hat n i applaud u...the new "evolution" of mmo plalyers are blind dum kids...if they need ti actually use there brain to play they will whine...look at what happen to WoW...but that being said....p2w is a horrible thing and yes it is cheating no matter how you look at it....back in the day we used to p2w...by back in the day i mean in the 90's...how? do you remember a lil tlhing called..GAME GENIE...you paid for cheat to win......p..2...w.....wake up ppl...its he truth....n the truth hurts....
what...?
Game Genie was a device that went between your console game cartridge and the console. It was a hardwired "cheat code" for consoles. It was sold by third parties, not console manufacturers.
However, not a lot of multi-player interaction there, so cheating affected no one but the player using it
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I have the feeling you do not understand the terms you are using.
1) Punishment: Is an act of penalizing someone for an action that is considered wrong by society standards.
A child getting shocked by sticking a penny in an electrical outlet is not punished. It experiences that the human body can act as conductor. The electric outlet does not punish the child. It simply follows physics. Same goes for your vibrant hot iron example. Simple physics.
2) Respect: Fear is an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger, pain, or harm.
Respect is a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. Logic conclusion: Something that is considered an unpleasant emotion can never induce respect. Respect for laws and authority comes because we accept certain society standards and consider them right. It is not right to steal. It is not right to kill. It is not right to lie. It is not right to cheat. Respecting these society standards is something parents teach their children. So, you could probably say that respect for authority is something that emerges from education and admiration.
3) "Reporting cheaters is a form of punishment. Just saying...."
Erm nope. To report means to give a spoken or written account of something that one has observed, heard, done, or investigated. Nothing else. If the reported person gets punished is up to the receptor of the report.
Hopefully this helps to understand what respect or punishment means.
And with all the respect. I'm not your bro.
**definitions of the terms respect, punishment, respect have been taken out of the Oxford English Dictionary.
You know... I was going to write this big long thing out in response to this... and I got about half way through it. But then I realized that if you had the idea to look up the meanings to the words "fear" and "respect" in the Oxford English Dictionary just to be one of those forum warrior guys who get off on setting other people straight, but didn't bother to look up the history of the word "fear" being synonymous with the word "respect" in certain contexts... then you simply aren't worth the energy to correct.
Also, I never called you, bro - dude.
Have fun with your dictionary. You should learn to use it properly before you start citing from it to correct people by cherry picking single definitions of words without exploring how it can be used in another context, though.
I agree that everything depends on the Rules set by the company. Whether we like or not it is a different thing. It is also true that some times these rules defy logic. However if it set by the company , the only way to make them understand is by not playing the game.
The best way to minimize all options which can be considered as "cheating", in my opinion( can be controlled by the company in a very high percentage) is by removing all game money transactions in between the players.
Every game that has subscription option should have a system like PLEX or CREDD. AND IT IS NOT CHEATING. OP just because you don't like a system doesn't mean it is cheating and in no way PLEX or CREDD is pay2win. sure you can get in game currency by selling those items but that does not make anything pay2win. another player who is not selling CREDD or PLEX can grind the same amount of currency after a week of usual gameplay and can compete again. you wanna see pay2win play any korean game where in game there is no gear drop from even end game raid boss, end game gears can only be bought from cash shop. but there is no point telling you that, is there? you have already made up your mind. But i applaud carbine for adding CREDD system. it is good for players and business.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
There was allways cheating in games and Players already exploited, cheated and botted in DAOC which was the first mmo i played - it was never absent!
In the "betray me" economy/society we have developed it is no wonder that less poeple see it as sort of a sin...
That's not the point.
There's always been cheating, exploiting, etc. Yes.
The point is... For a long time, it was not considered "okay".
Once upon a time, people did all they could to make excuses, invent stories or whatever to hide the fact that they were buying their in-game money, progress, characters... because it was not okay among the greater population. Those people were mocked and shunned. Guilds/Clans/Etc. wouldn't take them. They would be called out on it openly. It was not cool.
Now, because game developers/publishers have found a way to cash in on RMT - somethin they once prohibited and punished - all of a sudden, spending money on in-game items, and even currency in some cases, is considered "okay", because the money is lining their pockets. Funny thing is.. RMT companies are still running rampant in these games.. only now the developers don't seem to care as much anymore. Why? Because they're on the other side of the fence now, getting their share of the pie. Greed has replaced any sense of fair play. Now they want people to spend as much as possible. So, they'll do a token banning once in a while, just to keep up appearances.. but they really don't care anymore. Not nearly as they used to.
But the practice does diminish the game. Once upon a time, acquiring items in-game - "just aesthetic" or otherwise - involved actual content to be completed. The ability to level more efficiently was down to the player(s) discovering better places or methods of leveling to increase their xp/hr. Better play, better strategy, better understanding of the game mechanics or a given class's abilities, etc... that's what led to better in-game experiences. It was a point of pride to be able to play the game well. Now? Pfft. No one cares. Want to level faster? Buy some xp potions. Want to do better against those tougher mobs? Buy better HP pots. Keep running out of MP? Don't bother trying to learn better MP management. That takes time and effort. Much easier - or, "convenient" - to just spend some $$$ and stock up on MP pots from the cash shop. And those are just some of the more innocuous examples. Sanctioned RMT (aka 'Cash Shops') get a lot worse than that.
I agree that the OP's post is rather long and labyrinthine, and a difficult read (even by my standards, and I can be real long winded myself lol). However, one thing I got out of it, which they are 100% correct when they discuss how Cash Shops - aka "sanctioned RMT" - have diminished MMOs, and the genre is worse off for it. The moment you take something that used to require actual gameplay to achieve or acquire, and replace with the ability to do so by simply pulling out your credit card... you're diminishing the amount of content available, by replacing it with $$$. That's not even debatable.
Originally posted by Ikonis I stopped reading when you said Eve PLEX is pay to win. Shows you know a absolutely nothing about the game.
Technically, PLEXes are pay to win. There is no way to circumvent that. But it also shows that P2W is a lot more complicated than what others would want to believe.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Oddly enough this may all be tied into why some of us older gamers can't find a place to call home. Things are only going to get worse though. We now pay for beta access half the time. Depending on the game we can pay for just about anything. Heck I see p2p's as the last safe haven we have. Even those p2p companies usually crumble under the weight of greed and try to cash in on us gamers.
Cheating on the other hand has gotten out of control. It's become more widespread and easier to find out about(for mmos) Look at ESO for example a lot of people duped their little hearts out. How many of those people got punished? How many of them tried to justify what they were doing? Perhaps, it has something to do with a much larger population of people playing mmo's than we had in say 2004. With how our population has increase in these games to it isn't easy to isolate these cheaters anymore. I would love to see this crap addressed in the near future with a game/mechanic that can really combat this mentality , but that is just wishful thinking.
There was allways cheating in games and Players already exploited, cheated and botted in DAOC which was the first mmo i played - it was never absent!
In the "betray me" economy/society we have developed it is no wonder that less poeple see it as sort of a sin...
That's not the point.
There's always been cheating, exploiting, etc. Yes.
The point is... For a long time, it was not considered "okay".
Is it considered OK today? With all the bot talk surrounding ESO, I'd go ahead and say that cheating isn't accepted today, at all. There have been people who quit the game just because of bots.
Is RMT acceptable? Hmmmmmmm, well the D3 Real Money AH went south relatively quickly, didn't it? Only after having people complain about it all the live long day.
In the end, though, it becomes a question of what you can do with things like CREDD. Can you buy items in-game that aren't available to anyone else via in-game cash? If not, then it's not P2W. There is plenty of sports equipment which provides better results than lower-quality gear, so are sports P2W? If I can only afford hockey skates from the 60s, I'm sure that players with current skates will be able to skate faster than me. Same goes for bats, hockey sticks, etc., etc. Everything is P2W if you look at it that way, it doesn't mean that it's cheating.
I think we should concentrate on shops where you can buy gear that available through any other means, that's superior to what can be gained in the game. Unfortunately it's posts like this that make devs think they're damned if the do and damned if they don't so might as well just go the route of making money! Then we've got a BIG P2W problem. Thanks OP!
If I can give you one event that started the change, it's when SOE rewrote the SWG terms of service to make AFK entertainer buffbots a protected class and playstyle, while AFK "lootbots" were banned.
At that point, what was or was not "against the rules" had more to do with what the most vocal players demanded and less to do with maintaining the integrity of the game. RMT, pay-to-win, selective enforcement of the TOS concerning third party apps and a host of other practices were tolerated--if not downright promoted--after that time.
These days, it's all about what the target demographic wants...regardless of whether their wants create a better, more inclusive experience, or a game environment with integrity.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Ikonis I stopped reading when you said Eve PLEX is pay to win. Shows you know a absolutely nothing about the game.
Technically, PLEXes are pay to win. There is no way to circumvent that. But it also shows that P2W is a lot more complicated than what others would want to believe.
As everyone has their own personal definition and criteria for what constitutes 'pay to win', it's entirely possible that under some umbrellas that is true. However, at that loose of a definition, using a more protective (but legal) sunblock cream as a football player would also be pay to win.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There was allways cheating in games and Players already exploited, cheated and botted in DAOC which was the first mmo i played - it was never absent!
In the "betray me" economy/society we have developed it is no wonder that less poeple see it as sort of a sin...
That's not the point.
There's always been cheating, exploiting, etc. Yes.
The point is... For a long time, it was not considered "okay".
Once upon a time, people did all they could to make excuses, invent stories or whatever to hide the fact that they were buying their in-game money, progress, characters... because it was not okay among the greater population. Those people were mocked and shunned. Guilds/Clans/Etc. wouldn't take them. They would be called out on it openly. It was not cool.
Now, because game developers/publishers have found a way to cash in on RMT - somethin they once prohibited and punished - all of a sudden, spending money on in-game items, and even currency in some cases, is considered "okay", because the money is lining their pockets. Funny thing is.. RMT companies are still running rampant in these games.. only now the developers don't seem to care as much anymore. Why? Because they're on the other side of the fence now, getting their share of the pie. Greed has replaced any sense of fair play. Now they want people to spend as much as possible. So, they'll do a token banning once in a while, just to keep up appearances.. but they really don't care anymore. Not nearly as they used to.
But the practice does diminish the game. Once upon a time, acquiring items in-game - "just aesthetic" or otherwise - involved actual content to be completed. The ability to level more efficiently was down to the player(s) discovering better places or methods of leveling to increase their xp/hr. Better play, better strategy, better understanding of the game mechanics or a given class's abilities, etc... that's what led to better in-game experiences. It was a point of pride to be able to play the game well. Now? Pfft. No one cares. Want to level faster? Buy some xp potions. Want to do better against those tougher mobs? Buy better HP pots. Keep running out of MP? Don't bother trying to learn better MP management. That takes time and effort. Much easier - or, "convenient" - to just spend some $$$ and stock up on MP pots from the cash shop. And those are just some of the more innocuous examples. Sanctioned RMT (aka 'Cash Shops') get a lot worse than that.
I agree that the OP's post is rather long and labyrinthine, and a difficult read (even by my standards, and I can be real long winded myself lol). However, one thing I got out of it, which they are 100% correct when they discuss how Cash Shops - aka "sanctioned RMT" - have diminished MMOs, and the genre is worse off for it. The moment you take something that used to require actual gameplay to achieve or acquire, and replace with the ability to do so by simply pulling out your credit card... you're diminishing the amount of content available, by replacing it with $$$. That's not even debatable.
Awesome post.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Yes, we are living in a grim times for the MMORPG gamer and only because there have been a rapid increased in MMORPG's being rushed and launched out there we have the opportunity to withness more of these flawed designs with games.
Bottom line is, veteran players like I are immune to hype, promices and advetisings. Thanks to my experience I'm happy to say that I'm proud of successfully dodging every MMO that was developed in the last 4-5 years and I've not spent a dime on a new one since DCUO, January 11th 2011.
I've bulked far more $ thanks to that and I've also voted with my wallet. Yes, I'm obvioslly not the targeted audience to the majority of the companies who's goal is to only make "profits" and it's clear as day what type of audience they are targeting. Yes, I remember how hard I was milked and how much $ I've spent during my early childhood for gaming, but that is gone now.
Once you see the best, you never settle for less, unless that less is the only option left available and got no choice but to adopt to such environment or move on with different hobbies/activities. I'm sure most here remember how hyped Guild Wars 2 was around here prior to launch. The forums exploded and I loved Guild Wars 1. I enjoyed it for good amount of time, but then again I was 5-6 years younger and Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars 1.
Last thing I'll say...Pay attention to SWG and Ultima Online. Those 2 are still the best MMORPG's I've had chance to experience and if executed right, in the right environment behind the right team they are still far superious than anything we've experienced in the last decade.
In 2 months or so I intend to go back to Path of Exile and that hopefully will keep me busy for some time until the games mentioned above will come to fruition or DCUO + Everquest 3 (with station pass) can be fully enjoyed. Although it's too early to tell how Everquest 3 will do, but if its decent and not perfect it will be another great option for us. Then we got Black Desert, ArcheAge, H1Z1 and The Repopulation that might be something fresh and successful.
Finally, Star Citizen in the late 2015, so this is indeed a grim times for the MMORPG player that has to endure until we can finally find one home we can most agree to support and be part of. WOW:WOD is also not out of the picture. Blizzard might become desperate and go F2P or push content pace if they continue to go south.
P:S: I'm ok if players are allowed to buy and sell their earned items/gold for $ as long as I'm allowed to do the same and all of that is obtained in a secure, cheat/exploit free environment. I remember SWG pre-CU I could've sold my Light Jedi Knight for over $5,000, but still I refused to. I never played MMORPG's to earn irl $ but eventually I would want to have that option and I'm sure most because at the end players should have the freedom and right to do whatever they like with their stuff.
Just do yourself a favor and avoid any company that does not protect its players from cheating, it's not that hard. Multiboxing, botting and exploits that persist for too long or not addressed accordingly are some of the signs I would pay attention to.
GW2 and Wildstar don't seem P2W at all to me. GW2 is basically a pve game so who cares if you can buy gear. Wildstar is the same deal as PLEX. I don't see providing consumers with options as being P2W.
Originally posted by Nephaerius GW2 and Wildstar don't seem P2W at all to me. GW2 is basically a pve game so who cares if you can buy gear. Wildstar is the same deal as PLEX. I don't see providing consumers with options as being P2W.
You're right they are not P2W at all. Buying gems and then converting to gold in GW2 and purchasing a legendary weapon doesn't actually make anyone stronger than the next guy. It's all aesthetics, and buying a CREDD or PLEX for a markup and trading that to another player (paying for their gametime) is not P2W either. But these guys are just dead set on thinking, "HE CAN BE SHINIER THAN ME! HE CAN BE MORE WEALTHY THAN ME. THATS CHEATING!"
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
When the devs agree, of course. They control their game. They can put in any policies. If they says it is not cheating, it is not.
You can, of course, disagree. But your disagreement is pointless because what you considered "cheating" can still be done in the game openly if the dev sanctions it.
Even though the most beneficial members of just about any society are the ones with the least time and the least money, while your typical well-paid worker is merely making profits for those who have too much already and therefore deserves no credit for being 'productive', I do understand why someone with less time and more money would want to spend some money to make up for lost time.
If it didn't affect my gameplay, I'd say go for it. Why would I quibble over how someone enjoys an MMO? Even if I personally won't do it because it ruins my enjoyment of the game, it's no skin off my toes.
But it does affect my gameplay. Negatively. Mainly as far as the in game economy goes.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Comments
I tend to need a minute to edit my post. Cut me some slack ;P
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
Yes, I do understand things need dedication. I try and excell at what I do in real life (be it my job, be it tabletennis,...). But then besides that there is gaming, which to me is outside of real life. So yes, I take from it what I like, and leave the rest. (like the term cherrypicking, fits the situation perfectly).
And then I turn of my computer and get back to down to it in real life. For in my hobby, I do feel like having my cake and eating it
To me games are really just a light form of entertainment for when I don't want/need to try better myself all the time. I do understand this cherrypicking might rub people the wrong way, but that is only because it's the way we look at games. (play-to-win vs play-for-fun)
I only thought it ironic that he calls people like me lazy, as it implies that gaming for hours a day is somehow the poster-boy image of pristine behaviour.
What the OP is talking about is morality. That will vary with every individual player. Most of the time, for "someone else", it is cheating. When the player does it, it is "playing smarter"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If it breaks the rules then it is cheating, definetly. Not argueing.
If it is against the rules and you justify breaking them by "your own morality" then it is still breaking the rules.
If it is against the rules then it is not considered playing smart.
If it is within the rules and you've put thought into your actions and therefore gain an advantage it is "playing smarter".
Just neutraly wanted to point this out incase someone draws weird conclusions.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
However, not a lot of multi-player interaction there, so cheating affected no one but the player using it
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You know... I was going to write this big long thing out in response to this... and I got about half way through it. But then I realized that if you had the idea to look up the meanings to the words "fear" and "respect" in the Oxford English Dictionary just to be one of those forum warrior guys who get off on setting other people straight, but didn't bother to look up the history of the word "fear" being synonymous with the word "respect" in certain contexts... then you simply aren't worth the energy to correct.
Also, I never called you, bro - dude.
Have fun with your dictionary. You should learn to use it properly before you start citing from it to correct people by cherry picking single definitions of words without exploring how it can be used in another context, though.
He actually explains pretty thoroughly why he thinks that.
If he's wrong, you should try to point out where he is being mislead, instead of just saying he's ignorant.
I agree that everything depends on the Rules set by the company. Whether we like or not it is a different thing. It is also true that some times these rules defy logic. However if it set by the company , the only way to make them understand is by not playing the game.
The best way to minimize all options which can be considered as "cheating", in my opinion( can be controlled by the company in a very high percentage) is by removing all game money transactions in between the players.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
That's not the point.
There's always been cheating, exploiting, etc. Yes.
The point is... For a long time, it was not considered "okay".
Once upon a time, people did all they could to make excuses, invent stories or whatever to hide the fact that they were buying their in-game money, progress, characters... because it was not okay among the greater population. Those people were mocked and shunned. Guilds/Clans/Etc. wouldn't take them. They would be called out on it openly. It was not cool.
Now, because game developers/publishers have found a way to cash in on RMT - somethin they once prohibited and punished - all of a sudden, spending money on in-game items, and even currency in some cases, is considered "okay", because the money is lining their pockets. Funny thing is.. RMT companies are still running rampant in these games.. only now the developers don't seem to care as much anymore. Why? Because they're on the other side of the fence now, getting their share of the pie. Greed has replaced any sense of fair play. Now they want people to spend as much as possible. So, they'll do a token banning once in a while, just to keep up appearances.. but they really don't care anymore. Not nearly as they used to.
But the practice does diminish the game. Once upon a time, acquiring items in-game - "just aesthetic" or otherwise - involved actual content to be completed. The ability to level more efficiently was down to the player(s) discovering better places or methods of leveling to increase their xp/hr. Better play, better strategy, better understanding of the game mechanics or a given class's abilities, etc... that's what led to better in-game experiences. It was a point of pride to be able to play the game well. Now? Pfft. No one cares. Want to level faster? Buy some xp potions. Want to do better against those tougher mobs? Buy better HP pots. Keep running out of MP? Don't bother trying to learn better MP management. That takes time and effort. Much easier - or, "convenient" - to just spend some $$$ and stock up on MP pots from the cash shop. And those are just some of the more innocuous examples. Sanctioned RMT (aka 'Cash Shops') get a lot worse than that.
I agree that the OP's post is rather long and labyrinthine, and a difficult read (even by my standards, and I can be real long winded myself lol). However, one thing I got out of it, which they are 100% correct when they discuss how Cash Shops - aka "sanctioned RMT" - have diminished MMOs, and the genre is worse off for it. The moment you take something that used to require actual gameplay to achieve or acquire, and replace with the ability to do so by simply pulling out your credit card... you're diminishing the amount of content available, by replacing it with $$$. That's not even debatable.
Technically, PLEXes are pay to win. There is no way to circumvent that. But it also shows that P2W is a lot more complicated than what others would want to believe.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You sir, are full of priceless gems...
Oddly enough this may all be tied into why some of us older gamers can't find a place to call home. Things are only going to get worse though. We now pay for beta access half the time. Depending on the game we can pay for just about anything. Heck I see p2p's as the last safe haven we have. Even those p2p companies usually crumble under the weight of greed and try to cash in on us gamers.
Cheating on the other hand has gotten out of control. It's become more widespread and easier to find out about(for mmos) Look at ESO for example a lot of people duped their little hearts out. How many of those people got punished? How many of them tried to justify what they were doing? Perhaps, it has something to do with a much larger population of people playing mmo's than we had in say 2004. With how our population has increase in these games to it isn't easy to isolate these cheaters anymore. I would love to see this crap addressed in the near future with a game/mechanic that can really combat this mentality , but that is just wishful thinking.
No need to praise me. It's in the dictionary plain as day for anyone to read.
Is it considered OK today? With all the bot talk surrounding ESO, I'd go ahead and say that cheating isn't accepted today, at all. There have been people who quit the game just because of bots.
Is RMT acceptable? Hmmmmmmm, well the D3 Real Money AH went south relatively quickly, didn't it? Only after having people complain about it all the live long day.
In the end, though, it becomes a question of what you can do with things like CREDD. Can you buy items in-game that aren't available to anyone else via in-game cash? If not, then it's not P2W. There is plenty of sports equipment which provides better results than lower-quality gear, so are sports P2W? If I can only afford hockey skates from the 60s, I'm sure that players with current skates will be able to skate faster than me. Same goes for bats, hockey sticks, etc., etc. Everything is P2W if you look at it that way, it doesn't mean that it's cheating.
I think we should concentrate on shops where you can buy gear that available through any other means, that's superior to what can be gained in the game. Unfortunately it's posts like this that make devs think they're damned if the do and damned if they don't so might as well just go the route of making money! Then we've got a BIG P2W problem. Thanks OP!
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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If I can give you one event that started the change, it's when SOE rewrote the SWG terms of service to make AFK entertainer buffbots a protected class and playstyle, while AFK "lootbots" were banned.
At that point, what was or was not "against the rules" had more to do with what the most vocal players demanded and less to do with maintaining the integrity of the game. RMT, pay-to-win, selective enforcement of the TOS concerning third party apps and a host of other practices were tolerated--if not downright promoted--after that time.
These days, it's all about what the target demographic wants...regardless of whether their wants create a better, more inclusive experience, or a game environment with integrity.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
As everyone has their own personal definition and criteria for what constitutes 'pay to win', it's entirely possible that under some umbrellas that is true. However, at that loose of a definition, using a more protective (but legal) sunblock cream as a football player would also be pay to win.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Awesome post.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/OP,
Yes, we are living in a grim times for the MMORPG gamer and only because there have been a rapid increased in MMORPG's being rushed and launched out there we have the opportunity to withness more of these flawed designs with games.
Bottom line is, veteran players like I are immune to hype, promices and advetisings. Thanks to my experience I'm happy to say that I'm proud of successfully dodging every MMO that was developed in the last 4-5 years and I've not spent a dime on a new one since DCUO, January 11th 2011.
I've bulked far more $ thanks to that and I've also voted with my wallet. Yes, I'm obvioslly not the targeted audience to the majority of the companies who's goal is to only make "profits" and it's clear as day what type of audience they are targeting. Yes, I remember how hard I was milked and how much $ I've spent during my early childhood for gaming, but that is gone now.
Once you see the best, you never settle for less, unless that less is the only option left available and got no choice but to adopt to such environment or move on with different hobbies/activities. I'm sure most here remember how hyped Guild Wars 2 was around here prior to launch. The forums exploded and I loved Guild Wars 1. I enjoyed it for good amount of time, but then again I was 5-6 years younger and Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars 1.
Last thing I'll say...Pay attention to SWG and Ultima Online. Those 2 are still the best MMORPG's I've had chance to experience and if executed right, in the right environment behind the right team they are still far superious than anything we've experienced in the last decade.
In 2 months or so I intend to go back to Path of Exile and that hopefully will keep me busy for some time until the games mentioned above will come to fruition or DCUO + Everquest 3 (with station pass) can be fully enjoyed. Although it's too early to tell how Everquest 3 will do, but if its decent and not perfect it will be another great option for us. Then we got Black Desert, ArcheAge, H1Z1 and The Repopulation that might be something fresh and successful.
Finally, Star Citizen in the late 2015, so this is indeed a grim times for the MMORPG player that has to endure until we can finally find one home we can most agree to support and be part of. WOW:WOD is also not out of the picture. Blizzard might become desperate and go F2P or push content pace if they continue to go south.
P:S: I'm ok if players are allowed to buy and sell their earned items/gold for $ as long as I'm allowed to do the same and all of that is obtained in a secure, cheat/exploit free environment. I remember SWG pre-CU I could've sold my Light Jedi Knight for over $5,000, but still I refused to. I never played MMORPG's to earn irl $ but eventually I would want to have that option and I'm sure most because at the end players should have the freedom and right to do whatever they like with their stuff.
Just do yourself a favor and avoid any company that does not protect its players from cheating, it's not that hard. Multiboxing, botting and exploits that persist for too long or not addressed accordingly are some of the signs I would pay attention to.
Steam: Neph
You're right they are not P2W at all. Buying gems and then converting to gold in GW2 and purchasing a legendary weapon doesn't actually make anyone stronger than the next guy. It's all aesthetics, and buying a CREDD or PLEX for a markup and trading that to another player (paying for their gametime) is not P2W either. But these guys are just dead set on thinking, "HE CAN BE SHINIER THAN ME! HE CAN BE MORE WEALTHY THAN ME. THATS CHEATING!"
I like the baseball analogy.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"When Did Cheating in MMORPGs Become OK?"
When the devs agree, of course. They control their game. They can put in any policies. If they says it is not cheating, it is not.
You can, of course, disagree. But your disagreement is pointless because what you considered "cheating" can still be done in the game openly if the dev sanctions it.
Even though the most beneficial members of just about any society are the ones with the least time and the least money, while your typical well-paid worker is merely making profits for those who have too much already and therefore deserves no credit for being 'productive', I do understand why someone with less time and more money would want to spend some money to make up for lost time.
If it didn't affect my gameplay, I'd say go for it. Why would I quibble over how someone enjoys an MMO? Even if I personally won't do it because it ruins my enjoyment of the game, it's no skin off my toes.
But it does affect my gameplay. Negatively. Mainly as far as the in game economy goes.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein