Originally posted by Nephaerius GW2 and Wildstar don't seem P2W at all to me. GW2 is basically a pve game so who cares if you can buy gear. Wildstar is the same deal as PLEX. I don't see providing consumers with options as being P2W.
You're right they are not P2W at all. Buying gems and then converting to gold in GW2 and purchasing a legendary weapon doesn't actually make anyone stronger than the next guy. It's all aesthetics, and buying a CREDD or PLEX for a markup and trading that to another player (paying for their gametime) is not P2W either. But these guys are just dead set on thinking, "HE CAN BE SHINIER THAN ME! HE CAN BE MORE WEALTHY THAN ME. THATS CHEATING!"
They are P2W if their endgame design is not about obtaining stronger gear, but obtaining rare looking/unique gear, which seems to be the case with GW2 (although never played it)
Originally posted by Nephaerius I don't see how that's pay to win still as you're not winning anything. .....
Depends on how PvP gear is set up, and if you are well-geared for PVE thanks to your wallet, you might be winning a raid spot someone who isn't shelling out for gold won't get.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
What are you talking about? We're talking about gw2 and wildstar and you can't buy raid gear in either of those games not to mention there are no raids in gw2
Actually, I don't think RMT was ever 'cheating', it simple caused collateral damage by giving third parties incentive to hack accounts, spam advertising, farm, bot, etc. Having the companies themselves sell in-game currency doesn't bother me.
Originally posted by Nephaerius I don't see how that's pay to win still as you're not winning anything. .....
Depends on how PvP gear is set up, and if you are well-geared for PVE thanks to your wallet, you might be winning a raid spot someone who isn't shelling out for gold won't get.
Originally posted by Nephaerius I don't see how that's pay to win still as you're not winning anything. .....
Depends on how PvP gear is set up, and if you are well-geared for PVE thanks to your wallet, you might be winning a raid spot someone who isn't shelling out for gold won't get.
There is no p2w if you play solo.
That's correct, and I do mostly solo. However, it still tends to screw with my ability to farm for gold and the in game economy in general, which is why I'm opposed.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by Nephaerius What are you talking about? We're talking about gw2 and wildstar and you can't buy raid gear in either of those games not to mention there are no raids in gw2
GW2 has fractals and dungeons that require gear, and if you can buy gear to make you raid ready in Wildstar, the point still stands. Not that I care, as I mentioned to someone else, I don't raid, and I probably won't even do dungeons. It's a matter for me of nerfed droprates and borked in game economies.
But that doesn't mean I don't consider cash for gold pay to win in some aspects, because I do.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
The OP posts reminds me of why I can't stand P2P games at all.
It's the people.
"I pay my sub so nobody is allowed anything more than ME! I pay my sub so that they sign some virtual contract saying that nobody else can pay more for better stuff! Didnt' the developer recognize my own personal feelings in the contract? I deserve to get the best in the game because I pay for a sub! I want everything because I pay for a sub!"
Why do we have to endure more complaining by the next self entitled P2P player when they can't comprehend the difference between a sport (a.k.a. no cheating) and a paid form of entertainment. Can we arrange for some course to help these people out to understand the difference? Maybe it could be a prerequisite before they would allow them to sign up for the subscription.
Oh and for the record, people say that Eve is the same because it is the same.
And by all means, if you don't like it, don't buy it. And if you find yourself with no game to play, then maybe you need to adjust your opinion or find a new hobby.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Sorry, but I am not looking to be disrespectful to you OP but I think you really do not understand what 'Pay to Win' is. I think this concept is now lost on a lot of people. I think this all stems with people looking for free games to play because they have no money and either can't support the company or choose not to, but they harbor some resentment towards those that can.
Firstly - Pay to Win is not the purchase of items or equipment in a cash shop, it is being able to purchase items that give you ADVANTAGE over a typical non-paying customer. The idea being is that in order to compete, you HAVE to buy the better gear.
If the gear you buy in the shop is equal to (in stats) to the gear you can get in game, then you are not playing a P2W game. It is all about currency, some people use time as their currency, others use money.
If you are unemployed, chances are you can play a heck of a lot more (if you wished to) than someone who is fully employed. As such, you invest your currency "time" into the game, the worker wishes to purchase items to get where you are so they can play with others. This does not give them an advantage, this provides them with a means to play the game as they choose to based on the amount of time they have.
Some people might buy xp potions so they can level quicker, I mean after all if money isn't an object to them, why wouldn't they. They want to get to the part of the game they wish to play, which is raiding. Perhaps these people don't have ten hours a day to spend on the game doing hard modes and dungeon runs to gear up for raiding, they wish to do it now. As such, they pay to do so.
Perhaps these people love PvP but do not have the time to level up for it, but wish to buy into it so they can have some fun. Remember if there is NO advantage being given to them, its not P2W they are paying to be equal and competitive.
So this actually has no impact on you what-so-ever, in PvE you benefit because they'll be geared for you to clear content, in PvP you have another person in the queue to play against.
The perception of this is staggering, where people see cheating left, right and center.. But all it is, is resentment towards those with money, in a better position than you are because they can throw it about.
Example, I do not often buy from cash shop, exceptions are TSW as I enjoy their content so I buy the episodes and some clothing. I played RIFT for a while, my friend who never played RIFT wanted to catch up so they could play with us. They earn a lot of money and dropped about $200 dollars there and then buying stuff off the shop to help gear up and level quicker.
Of course, cheating DOES exist, this is often by the community who abuse exploits at alarming rates and I would say the shop prices can be a bit of a scandal. But, with the ratio of people that actually SUPPORT the company buy making a purchase I can't honestly blame them. They gotta pay the bills after all.
Originally posted by Nephaerius I don't see how that's pay to win still as you're not winning anything. .....
Depends on how PvP gear is set up, and if you are well-geared for PVE thanks to your wallet, you might be winning a raid spot someone who isn't shelling out for gold won't get.
There is no p2w if you play solo.
That's correct, and I do mostly solo. However, it still tends to screw with my ability to farm for gold and the in game economy in general, which is why I'm opposed.
May be you should play "self-found" ... like those who don't trade in D3 before they shut down the AH.
I'm not sure I understand or agree with everything the OP said, but I do believe buying things in game is either cheating or a dirty mechanic. It matters little if the items are of even power or simply cosmetic. This type of mechanic was called cheating in the old days. People sold items, gold, and accounts outside of the games for real money (and still do). Now that companies are also doing this everyone seems to think it's OK and no longer cheating. I disagree, but that is just my personal feelings.
Originally posted by Nephaerius I don't see how that's pay to win still as you're not winning anything. .....
Depends on how PvP gear is set up, and if you are well-geared for PVE thanks to your wallet, you might be winning a raid spot someone who isn't shelling out for gold won't get.
There is no p2w if you play solo.
That's correct, and I do mostly solo. However, it still tends to screw with my ability to farm for gold and the in game economy in general, which is why I'm opposed.
May be you should play "self-found" ... like those who don't trade in D3 before they shut down the AH.
I didn't play D3, but that probably would have worked fine for me. My personal opinion on authorized RMT aside, my concern with Wildstar is purely this:
Will the CREDD system lead to such nerfed droprates for solo players (as experienced in GW2 by me and many others) and/or such a borked economy that I won't be able to enjoy the housing because of the excessive grind required to purchase the necessary items?
Other than that, it won't affect me because I will neither buy nor sell currency for real money. That would make the game very unenjoyable for me. Nor will I have to compete regularly or perhaps at all with people who have better gear because they did participate in CREDD.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by Ikonis I stopped reading when you said Eve PLEX is pay to win. Shows you know a absolutely nothing about the game.
Well in some sort it is.
If I can convert my RL currency into ISK by using PLEX, I can easily make billions of ISK - depends how much money you want to invest.
This allows you to buy almost every ship and equipment you want. When I still played EvE, a properly fitted T3 Cruiser cost 2-3 billions. Farming this amount of ISK can be a tedious process. Using PLEX you could get it instant for roundabout € 30.
But I agree that being able to buy certain ships at will doen't really make it pay to win.
Originally posted by Ikonis I stopped reading when you said Eve PLEX is pay to win. Shows you know a absolutely nothing about the game.
Well in some sort it is.
If I can convert my RL currency into ISK by using PLEX, I can easily make billions of ISK - depends how much money you want to invest.
This allows you to buy almost every ship and equipment you want. When I still played EvE, a properly fitted T3 Cruiser cost 2-3 billions. Farming this amount of ISK can be a tedious process. Using PLEX you could get it instant for roundabout € 30.
But I agree that being able to buy certain ships at will doen't really make it pay to win.
You keep using this word "convert" as though you just sell the PLEX to an NPC in the game or something. Someone farmed the ISK and is trading that for the 30 days gametime you spent 20 dollars on for about 700m isk right now. Sure you can make billions by buying ISK but it's not as though it's just magically appearing out of thin air. And if there is no demand for PLEX you won't make squat.
Only thing I got from this is that some jackasses think a program will help get rid of cheating these days. Since it's SO OBVIOUS that this is not true....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Asariasha If I can convert my RL currency into ISK by using PLEX, I can easily make billions of ISK - depends how much money you want to invest.This allows you to buy almost every ship and equipment you want. When I still played EvE, a properly fitted T3 Cruiser cost 2-3 billions. Farming this amount of ISK can be a tedious process. Using PLEX you could get it instant for roundabout 30.
1) Any one can buy a T3 cruiser or just anything so there is nothing to "Win" about your RL money spent on PLEX.
Therefore P2W does not apply.
2) You are not "converting" ISK, you sell PLEX item. Those are 2 different things.
It absolutely does not matter where your items comes from - whether it was purchased for RL money, purchased from player, looted or obtained via any other game mechanics.
You are still leaving out any context of RMT and just argue some mechanical principles relating to use of RL money and video games.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
People ignore facts to keep their opinions in place all the time here.
man i dont care how old are you, but you never consider that paying per month for an MMO which never updates than to fix some bugs and even when it updates it demands more money is also a cheat?
so why is wrong a system like PLEX from EVE or like GEMs from GW2 ? they need some cash to continue .
also your terminology about MMORPG is totally wrong. MMORPGs are not only about fantasy, you are so bound with your first MMORPG you cant open your eyes ... i feel sorry for you .
Comments
They are P2W if their endgame design is not about obtaining stronger gear, but obtaining rare looking/unique gear, which seems to be the case with GW2 (although never played it)
Steam: Neph
Depends on how PvP gear is set up, and if you are well-geared for PVE thanks to your wallet, you might be winning a raid spot someone who isn't shelling out for gold won't get.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Steam: Neph
There is no p2w if you play solo.
That's correct, and I do mostly solo. However, it still tends to screw with my ability to farm for gold and the in game economy in general, which is why I'm opposed.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
GW2 has fractals and dungeons that require gear, and if you can buy gear to make you raid ready in Wildstar, the point still stands. Not that I care, as I mentioned to someone else, I don't raid, and I probably won't even do dungeons. It's a matter for me of nerfed droprates and borked in game economies.
But that doesn't mean I don't consider cash for gold pay to win in some aspects, because I do.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
The OP posts reminds me of why I can't stand P2P games at all.
It's the people.
"I pay my sub so nobody is allowed anything more than ME! I pay my sub so that they sign some virtual contract saying that nobody else can pay more for better stuff! Didnt' the developer recognize my own personal feelings in the contract? I deserve to get the best in the game because I pay for a sub! I want everything because I pay for a sub!"
Why do we have to endure more complaining by the next self entitled P2P player when they can't comprehend the difference between a sport (a.k.a. no cheating) and a paid form of entertainment. Can we arrange for some course to help these people out to understand the difference? Maybe it could be a prerequisite before they would allow them to sign up for the subscription.
Oh and for the record, people say that Eve is the same because it is the same.
And by all means, if you don't like it, don't buy it. And if you find yourself with no game to play, then maybe you need to adjust your opinion or find a new hobby.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Sorry, but I am not looking to be disrespectful to you OP but I think you really do not understand what 'Pay to Win' is. I think this concept is now lost on a lot of people. I think this all stems with people looking for free games to play because they have no money and either can't support the company or choose not to, but they harbor some resentment towards those that can.
Firstly - Pay to Win is not the purchase of items or equipment in a cash shop, it is being able to purchase items that give you ADVANTAGE over a typical non-paying customer. The idea being is that in order to compete, you HAVE to buy the better gear.
If the gear you buy in the shop is equal to (in stats) to the gear you can get in game, then you are not playing a P2W game. It is all about currency, some people use time as their currency, others use money.
If you are unemployed, chances are you can play a heck of a lot more (if you wished to) than someone who is fully employed. As such, you invest your currency "time" into the game, the worker wishes to purchase items to get where you are so they can play with others. This does not give them an advantage, this provides them with a means to play the game as they choose to based on the amount of time they have.
Some people might buy xp potions so they can level quicker, I mean after all if money isn't an object to them, why wouldn't they. They want to get to the part of the game they wish to play, which is raiding. Perhaps these people don't have ten hours a day to spend on the game doing hard modes and dungeon runs to gear up for raiding, they wish to do it now. As such, they pay to do so.
Perhaps these people love PvP but do not have the time to level up for it, but wish to buy into it so they can have some fun. Remember if there is NO advantage being given to them, its not P2W they are paying to be equal and competitive.
So this actually has no impact on you what-so-ever, in PvE you benefit because they'll be geared for you to clear content, in PvP you have another person in the queue to play against.
The perception of this is staggering, where people see cheating left, right and center.. But all it is, is resentment towards those with money, in a better position than you are because they can throw it about.
Example, I do not often buy from cash shop, exceptions are TSW as I enjoy their content so I buy the episodes and some clothing. I played RIFT for a while, my friend who never played RIFT wanted to catch up so they could play with us. They earn a lot of money and dropped about $200 dollars there and then buying stuff off the shop to help gear up and level quicker.
Of course, cheating DOES exist, this is often by the community who abuse exploits at alarming rates and I would say the shop prices can be a bit of a scandal. But, with the ratio of people that actually SUPPORT the company buy making a purchase I can't honestly blame them. They gotta pay the bills after all.
May be you should play "self-found" ... like those who don't trade in D3 before they shut down the AH.
I didn't play D3, but that probably would have worked fine for me. My personal opinion on authorized RMT aside, my concern with Wildstar is purely this:
Will the CREDD system lead to such nerfed droprates for solo players (as experienced in GW2 by me and many others) and/or such a borked economy that I won't be able to enjoy the housing because of the excessive grind required to purchase the necessary items?
Other than that, it won't affect me because I will neither buy nor sell currency for real money. That would make the game very unenjoyable for me. Nor will I have to compete regularly or perhaps at all with people who have better gear because they did participate in CREDD.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Well in some sort it is.
If I can convert my RL currency into ISK by using PLEX, I can easily make billions of ISK - depends how much money you want to invest.
This allows you to buy almost every ship and equipment you want. When I still played EvE, a properly fitted T3 Cruiser cost 2-3 billions. Farming this amount of ISK can be a tedious process. Using PLEX you could get it instant for roundabout € 30.
But I agree that being able to buy certain ships at will doen't really make it pay to win.
You keep using this word "convert" as though you just sell the PLEX to an NPC in the game or something. Someone farmed the ISK and is trading that for the 30 days gametime you spent 20 dollars on for about 700m isk right now. Sure you can make billions by buying ISK but it's not as though it's just magically appearing out of thin air. And if there is no demand for PLEX you won't make squat.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No praising there, it is more of "/facepalm".
1) Any one can buy a T3 cruiser or just anything so there is nothing to "Win" about your RL money spent on PLEX.
Therefore P2W does not apply.
2) You are not "converting" ISK, you sell PLEX item. Those are 2 different things.
It absolutely does not matter where your items comes from - whether it was purchased for RL money, purchased from player, looted or obtained via any other game mechanics.
You are still leaving out any context of RMT and just argue some mechanical principles relating to use of RL money and video games.
People ignore facts to keep their opinions in place all the time here.
It isnt ISK, but once someone BUYS it off them WITH ISK... it has now beceom the worth of ISK
omg this OP post ...
man i dont care how old are you, but you never consider that paying per month for an MMO which never updates than to fix some bugs and even when it updates it demands more money is also a cheat?
so why is wrong a system like PLEX from EVE or like GEMs from GW2 ? they need some cash to continue .
also your terminology about MMORPG is totally wrong. MMORPGs are not only about fantasy, you are so bound with your first MMORPG you cant open your eyes ... i feel sorry for you .