It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.
Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because one (RMT) depends on mechanics within a game to exist, and depends on the rules within the game to have any sort of negative consequences. The other items (smoking, drinking and gambling) will incur negative consequences regardless of any rules or opinions associated with them.
If you cannot prove your point by talking about the items itself (RMT), then you don't have a point. Analogies should be used to enhance an existing idea, not prove it.
There are no negative consequences associated with RMT that will occur outside of any rules associated with RMT. A person who smokes, even a small amount is killing the psillia in their lungs and is increasing their chance of getting lung cancer and other cardio-vascular diseases. A person who drinks, even a small amount is increasing the odds that their liver will become damaged, and that their judgement will be impaired at a time when they need unimpaired judgement. Gambling is the only example that may be analogous to RMT, but the activity of gambling triggers reward pathways in the brain in a way that can lead to addiction, something that does not occur with RMT in MMORPGs. It's a bad analogy and does not prove or support your point. You must first show that RMT are inherently bad and always incur negative consequences, even in games where people both accept and find them useful, such as Eve Online. Then you can use the analogy to further enhance or illustrate your point.
So you are saying it's OK to scam someone or cheat because it doesn't have a proven negative impact on health? That is great logic.
You haven't shown that RMT is equivalent to scamming or cheating, only that you don't like it and disagree with it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The motivations can be many, including of course actually wanting to buy items of power. EVE did a study a few years ago which came to the conclusion that items of power are the greatest money makers in any game, they just have the unfortunate side affect of alienating everyone else who doesn't want them and makes it self defeating to provide, unless you can disguise them somehow in the form of lock boxes, or gear enhancements.
I find it fairly amusing that someone needed a study to determine this. MMOs are all about power. Or anyway, the illusion of it. And any MMO with any PvP component is about an illusion of power over others. Arguably, any MMO with a social component, particularly those filled with hierarchical guilds, is about power over others as well.
And I find their conclusion regarding this study extremely unpleasant.
Your wallet should never, in any MMO, in any way affect my gameplay except to determine whether or not you are playing the game with me and whether or not you have the same expansions as I do, and maybe just maybe I can live with you having a little more bag space or bank space because you spent a little more than I did.
Okay fine, you can also have a useless sparkle pony and purely decorative pink tu-tu. But that is it!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
You haven't shown that RMT is equivalent to scamming or cheating, only that you don't like it and disagree with it.
I agree with you.
This has more to do with people disliking it. Which I can understand, but in no way shape or form is it cheating or scamming. To imply as such is a little bit immature to be honest.
For anything to be cheating, it would imply that you are obtaining something against the rules, design or spirit of a game. RMT does not do this, it is made abundantly clear in-game as to what purpose it serves. I find this to be ironic really considering how I have read a few posts lately going on about sub based games being out-dated and the greedy demons in the gaming market. Then I come on here and see that the F2P method of payment is treated equally as such. I think these people need to really seek their entertainment elsewhere because gaming is making them completely unhappy.
RMT Is pretty scummy... The major rmt sites don't just scam or cheat they go beyond that. Credit card fraud to buy either ingame currency or the game itself. Market becoming inflated due to bot platforms that these same rmt'ers use. People have been known to lose their accounts(granted out of stupidity) Now if you and a friend do some rmt off to the side that is still wrong, but it's safer and doesn't put money into the hands of the guys running bot platforms. Again let me be clear. A guy trying to cash out from putting his hard earned time in, and someone who's running major bots/ a website/ect that is different.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
We're talking about rules in video games, not health issues.
"Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game."
Do you really think every bowler uses the same ball? Every football player the same gear? Every baseball player the same bat? Have you ever heard of a team called the NY Yankees?
Not only can one buy whatever gear they want within the rules of the game, in some sports one can buy the whole team.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If I like the game, then I want to play the game, but don't like that part so skipping it IMO is good. Doing it would decrease my enjoyment of the game, IMO opinion it would be better if the game did not have that, but they likely put it in because other people do like it. So yes skipping it is good, and if costs me something to do that, that is fine. I do not view that as bad, I view the ability to skip the parts I don't like as good. No it does not sound wrong to me.
I recognize that an MMO will not be made exclusively for me, therefore there will be parts of them I do not like. Many parts the game does not require me to play other parts it does.
Simple example. Years and years ago in WoW the lvl 40 mounts were something like 100 gold (might have been 40, who cares, same principle applies). By the time I got to 40 I had earned about 10 gold, no I did not spend anything on anything. It took me a week of grinding dungeons and mobs to get the rest of that gold. Repeating the same content over and over and over for dozens of hours. It was horrible. I kept at it because I like the rest of the game. I promised I would never do that again.
Now I can just buy a mount. IMO this is much more enjoyable.
It has everything to do with personal point of view. There is nothing objective about it. Personal point of view is the only issue. I don't think paying to skip parts of the game I don't want to play is shady at all. If I generally like the game, but not this part then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Do you really need someone to explain how cheating is bad?
Cheating has nothing to do with what he posted. Please stay on topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To me when he describes paying to skip content, buying mounts, and buying gold it's cheating.
That's your personal issue, which has nothing to do with his post. It's a legal part of gameplay in the games that have it. You can argue that you don't like it, if you want, but your current stance is just silly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How is RMT or paying for any in game item with a credit card instead of entering a cheat code not anything more than paid sanctioned cheating? All RMT boils down to is buying cheat codes. It's all just monetized cheating.
If it is sanctioned, it is not cheating. Devs make the rules. If they allow RMT, it is part of the game. You may not like the rules, but it is not cheating.
I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Stop worrying bout that other players are doing and enjoy the game. You're the type that gets jealous over others shiney pixels. Let them waste their money if you think its a waste and let them enjoy playing.
What exactly is harming you in cash shops? Its not a sport, or competition with prizes and money. Its a RPG game.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
It defeats YOU purpose of the game. If a dev put in RMT, he can do it for whatever purpose that does not adhere to your likings.
Why don't people pay to skip parts they don't like? Video games are not sports. If the "purpose" of the devs are to entertain and make money, letting people pay to skip accomplish both purposes.
How is RMT or paying for any in game item with a credit card instead of entering a cheat code not anything more than paid sanctioned cheating? All RMT boils down to is buying cheat codes. It's all just monetized cheating.
If it is sanctioned, it is not cheating. Devs make the rules. If they allow RMT, it is part of the game. You may not like the rules, but it is not cheating.
Just because the rules get changed doesn't make something instantly not cheating. There is such a thing as sanctioned cheating.
If the Board of Education changed the rules so answer sheets are now legal and they are going to sell them. That does not make the use of answer sheets any less of a sleazy, dishonest, shortcut where the student puts forth no effort other than buying the answer sheet. It's still cheating even if they change the rules.
Saying it's not cheating when you pay for what is essentially a cheat code to spawn an item when the core act is still taking a sleazy, shortcut not earning it in the game is just paid sanctioned cheating.
The rules can include cheating. When that happens it's called sanctioned cheating. Simply sanctioning something does not stop it from being cheating if it's an easy, no effort, shortcut. Also for the people who say how does this affect me. When the game goes from being a game to a virtual mall cash shop selling things that players would have normally grouped up to do content to get and it's all about who has the fattest wallet to buy the shortcuts. That effects the entire game. It compromises the entire game.
That said cheating is subjective. This is how I see it.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too: Be it a re-release with extra content, or more for better seating, or more to have them bring me refreshments...
Once again the only two questions I ask with games is:
1. Do I like the game?
2. Am I willing to pay what they are asking in order to enjoy the game? or more specifically enjoy the game the way I choose to.
I could care less about the payment model. I don't find anything shady, dishonesty, cheating, scamming.... provided I know up front. And so far I have.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too: Be it a re-release with extra content, or more for better seating, or more to have them bring me refreshments...
Ditto. I didn't have to pay extra to skip past boring sections in books or movies. I did have to pay extra for snacks and 3D glasses though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
I went with some friends to play paintball around 20 years ago. We all rented these sad little pistols and some battered C02 cartridges to go with the ammo we bought. We then found ourselves up against some serious and well-heeled enthusiasts in full camo, wielding their own weaponry. One guy, I kid you not, had a tripod and another had real night vision goggles that certainly made life easy for him after dusk (and we did play until well after dark). Others had paintball guns that resembled sniper rifles.
I didn't get to shoot anyone, but I managed to hide a lot and not get shot. My friend spent twenty minutes sneaking up on someone, tried to shoot him, had a very predictable weapon failure, and got sprayed full on by colorful little balls of pain at very close range from something that looked rather like an Uzi.
As far as I know, none of us ever went back to play again. I know I didn't. I swore if I ever had the money to buy a decent paintball gun I might, but never until.
I don't want MMOs to be like that.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
---------
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
edit - or better yet text books for school where I absolutely did pay more for shorter versions. I bought the text books, then invariably there was a stack of pre-made cue cards or a laminated short sheet that made studying way easier. So paying more to skip the boring part of a book but still having it available should I need it, absolutely.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So basically you are saying CREDD is cheating? This was announced many months ago as an alternate form of purchasing a sub, based on the PLEX system of EVE.
Example: I am a college student taking the summer off, I have all the time in the world and me and 4 friends go smash the hell outta Wildstar. We earn a ton of ingame cash and trade that for our next two months subscriptions with the CREDD system to:
Jim, Dale, Dave, and John who each have go fishing a fair amount, boating with the family, and work 50 hour weeks, and hang out each saturday getting together leaving a few evenings to plow through content as fast as they can, but there ingame bank is rather low and an additional $20.00 once a month isn't hurting their wallets at all.
Now we have John BigBooty, who is obsessed with the game and wants to have it all, so not only does he sub, but he buys CREDD to make sure he can have everything in the game at a moments notice (Mind you I really have no idea what ingame cash gets you in Wildstar)
At what point was someone cheating? The system is there for this reason. Your idea that RMT is cheating is more of an opinion. It maybe against the TOS, but its in the eye of the beholder, if someone has more time, why not purchase something? I know people that have Power leveled people for RMT, Ingame stuff (they want a new class for example and are set on there old one, but no time to level a new one) and have been the one on both ends before.
Its a market, and finally the games are finally competent enough to understand, akin to much disgust of players, that the only way to counteract a secondary market is to make their own market at launch.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
---------
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
I believe you are completely missing the point of my comments.
Paying for food is inconsequential. You can also pay for food and eat doing anything in life (including games). You need to eat to live. It has nothing to do with the movie.
As for your second comment you just made my point. Once you pay for a book you own it.
Movies also cost lots of money to make so that is also a moot point.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
---------
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
I believe you are completely missing the point of my comments.
Paying for food is inconsequential. You can also pay for food and eat doing anything in life (including games). You need to eat to live. It has nothing to do with the movie.
As for your second comment you just made my point. Once you pay for a book you own it.
Movies also cost lots of money to make so that is also a moot point.
See my edit.
The movie may cost a lot to make, a game cost a lot to make, Neither may cost a lot for me to play/watch.
I was comparing playing a game to watching a movie, not making a game to watching a movie.
I own that version, not other versions.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
For some reason devs tend to frown on private servers when it comes to MMOs.
And they didn't make us go against them with our piddling guns, we were put into some of their teams, they were well-geared, not cruel! But I'm sure none of them wanted us on their teams, since were also incredibly useless.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I have a serious question for anyone who says changing the rules and making it legal means it's not cheating.
What about the mother of all cheats?
Godmode.
If the game sold godmode for $19.99 and it was just RMT and part of the rules, completely legal, wouldn't it still be cheating?
I say yes. Godmode is cheating. The reason is simple, because it's a sleazy, dishonest, shortcut that even if the game sanctions it is still cheating. Just like popping in anything by making a purchase in a cash shop is or paying to skip content.
Is godmode cheating even if it's sanctioned and legal and permitted by the rules?
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Comments
You haven't shown that RMT is equivalent to scamming or cheating, only that you don't like it and disagree with it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I find it fairly amusing that someone needed a study to determine this. MMOs are all about power. Or anyway, the illusion of it. And any MMO with any PvP component is about an illusion of power over others. Arguably, any MMO with a social component, particularly those filled with hierarchical guilds, is about power over others as well.
And I find their conclusion regarding this study extremely unpleasant.
Your wallet should never, in any MMO, in any way affect my gameplay except to determine whether or not you are playing the game with me and whether or not you have the same expansions as I do, and maybe just maybe I can live with you having a little more bag space or bank space because you spent a little more than I did.
Okay fine, you can also have a useless sparkle pony and purely decorative pink tu-tu. But that is it!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I agree with you.
This has more to do with people disliking it. Which I can understand, but in no way shape or form is it cheating or scamming. To imply as such is a little bit immature to be honest.
For anything to be cheating, it would imply that you are obtaining something against the rules, design or spirit of a game. RMT does not do this, it is made abundantly clear in-game as to what purpose it serves. I find this to be ironic really considering how I have read a few posts lately going on about sub based games being out-dated and the greedy demons in the gaming market. Then I come on here and see that the F2P method of payment is treated equally as such. I think these people need to really seek their entertainment elsewhere because gaming is making them completely unhappy.
We're talking about rules in video games, not health issues.
"Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game."
Do you really think every bowler uses the same ball? Every football player the same gear? Every baseball player the same bat? Have you ever heard of a team called the NY Yankees?
Not only can one buy whatever gear they want within the rules of the game, in some sports one can buy the whole team.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Cheating has nothing to do with what he posted. Please stay on topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To me when he describes paying to skip content, buying mounts, and buying gold it's cheating.
edit: Then again I consider using the warp whistle/flute in super Mario World 3 cheating.
CHEATERS!
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/That's your personal issue, which has nothing to do with his post. It's a legal part of gameplay in the games that have it. You can argue that you don't like it, if you want, but your current stance is just silly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If it is sanctioned, it is not cheating. Devs make the rules. If they allow RMT, it is part of the game. You may not like the rules, but it is not cheating.
Another crazy in game cash shop rant.
Stop worrying bout that other players are doing and enjoy the game. You're the type that gets jealous over others shiney pixels. Let them waste their money if you think its a waste and let them enjoy playing.
What exactly is harming you in cash shops? Its not a sport, or competition with prizes and money. Its a RPG game.
It defeats YOU purpose of the game. If a dev put in RMT, he can do it for whatever purpose that does not adhere to your likings.
Why don't people pay to skip parts they don't like? Video games are not sports. If the "purpose" of the devs are to entertain and make money, letting people pay to skip accomplish both purposes.
Just because the rules get changed doesn't make something instantly not cheating. There is such a thing as sanctioned cheating.
If the Board of Education changed the rules so answer sheets are now legal and they are going to sell them. That does not make the use of answer sheets any less of a sleazy, dishonest, shortcut where the student puts forth no effort other than buying the answer sheet. It's still cheating even if they change the rules.
Saying it's not cheating when you pay for what is essentially a cheat code to spawn an item when the core act is still taking a sleazy, shortcut not earning it in the game is just paid sanctioned cheating.
The rules can include cheating. When that happens it's called sanctioned cheating. Simply sanctioning something does not stop it from being cheating if it's an easy, no effort, shortcut. Also for the people who say how does this affect me. When the game goes from being a game to a virtual mall cash shop selling things that players would have normally grouped up to do content to get and it's all about who has the fattest wallet to buy the shortcuts. That effects the entire game. It compromises the entire game.
That said cheating is subjective. This is how I see it.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too: Be it a re-release with extra content, or more for better seating, or more to have them bring me refreshments...
Once again the only two questions I ask with games is:
1. Do I like the game?
2. Am I willing to pay what they are asking in order to enjoy the game? or more specifically enjoy the game the way I choose to.
I could care less about the payment model. I don't find anything shady, dishonesty, cheating, scamming.... provided I know up front. And so far I have.
Ditto. I didn't have to pay extra to skip past boring sections in books or movies. I did have to pay extra for snacks and 3D glasses though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
I went with some friends to play paintball around 20 years ago. We all rented these sad little pistols and some battered C02 cartridges to go with the ammo we bought. We then found ourselves up against some serious and well-heeled enthusiasts in full camo, wielding their own weaponry. One guy, I kid you not, had a tripod and another had real night vision goggles that certainly made life easy for him after dusk (and we did play until well after dark). Others had paintball guns that resembled sniper rifles.
I didn't get to shoot anyone, but I managed to hide a lot and not get shot. My friend spent twenty minutes sneaking up on someone, tried to shoot him, had a very predictable weapon failure, and got sprayed full on by colorful little balls of pain at very close range from something that looked rather like an Uzi.
As far as I know, none of us ever went back to play again. I know I didn't. I swore if I ever had the money to buy a decent paintball gun I might, but never until.
I don't want MMOs to be like that.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
---------
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
edit - or better yet text books for school where I absolutely did pay more for shorter versions. I bought the text books, then invariably there was a stack of pre-made cue cards or a laminated short sheet that made studying way easier. So paying more to skip the boring part of a book but still having it available should I need it, absolutely.
So basically you are saying CREDD is cheating? This was announced many months ago as an alternate form of purchasing a sub, based on the PLEX system of EVE.
Example: I am a college student taking the summer off, I have all the time in the world and me and 4 friends go smash the hell outta Wildstar. We earn a ton of ingame cash and trade that for our next two months subscriptions with the CREDD system to:
Jim, Dale, Dave, and John who each have go fishing a fair amount, boating with the family, and work 50 hour weeks, and hang out each saturday getting together leaving a few evenings to plow through content as fast as they can, but there ingame bank is rather low and an additional $20.00 once a month isn't hurting their wallets at all.
Now we have John BigBooty, who is obsessed with the game and wants to have it all, so not only does he sub, but he buys CREDD to make sure he can have everything in the game at a moments notice (Mind you I really have no idea what ingame cash gets you in Wildstar)
At what point was someone cheating? The system is there for this reason. Your idea that RMT is cheating is more of an opinion. It maybe against the TOS, but its in the eye of the beholder, if someone has more time, why not purchase something? I know people that have Power leveled people for RMT, Ingame stuff (they want a new class for example and are set on there old one, but no time to level a new one) and have been the one on both ends before.
Its a market, and finally the games are finally competent enough to understand, akin to much disgust of players, that the only way to counteract a secondary market is to make their own market at launch.
I believe you are completely missing the point of my comments.
Paying for food is inconsequential. You can also pay for food and eat doing anything in life (including games). You need to eat to live. It has nothing to do with the movie.
As for your second comment you just made my point. Once you pay for a book you own it.
Movies also cost lots of money to make so that is also a moot point.
See my edit.
The movie may cost a lot to make, a game cost a lot to make, Neither may cost a lot for me to play/watch.
I was comparing playing a game to watching a movie, not making a game to watching a movie.
I own that version, not other versions.
For some reason devs tend to frown on private servers when it comes to MMOs.
And they didn't make us go against them with our piddling guns, we were put into some of their teams, they were well-geared, not cruel! But I'm sure none of them wanted us on their teams, since were also incredibly useless.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I have a serious question for anyone who says changing the rules and making it legal means it's not cheating.
What about the mother of all cheats?
Godmode.
If the game sold godmode for $19.99 and it was just RMT and part of the rules, completely legal, wouldn't it still be cheating?
I say yes. Godmode is cheating. The reason is simple, because it's a sleazy, dishonest, shortcut that even if the game sanctions it is still cheating. Just like popping in anything by making a purchase in a cash shop is or paying to skip content.
Is godmode cheating even if it's sanctioned and legal and permitted by the rules?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/