It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I would not say that cheating, hacking, botting and exploiting is suddenly "okay".
People dont like cheaters, bots, hacks, exploits who give others an advantage and this wont change.
Some people do like them, obviously. Bot and wallhack and aimbot creators sell their programs for good money. Gold farmers sell their gold to players for good money (at least good in the countries the farmers come from). But until very recently it has never been considered acceptable in the West to spend your money getting an advantage this way. And certainly devs couldn't sell ingame currency before without getting boycotted by a lot of players. That is changing.
In my opinion it is going to make MMOs worse and not better. Guild Wars 2 was for me a fine example of the crap players who don't participate in sanctioned RMT have to put up with as far as nerfing legitimate player farming to make gold the player is going to use in the game for their own enjoyment. We'll see if Wildstar suffers from the same issue. I'm not optimistic.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
This is not cheating on terms of anything the OP gave an example for. Reall, could one just say that PUGing a raid is cheating? Why that example? A guild raid is usually hiring some PUG to come in and fill a spot that's empty for their weekly raid (they usually hire healers, maybe tanks, but almost never DPS because the sheer amount of extra there is).
Because basically C.R.E.D.D. is one player hiring another player to farm gold for them. The player who farmed the gold (which already had the gold anyways through gameplay) is getting paid in a month's subscription time. Carbine acts as a middle man in the situation by taking a 25% cut (the $5 extra that makes C.R.E.D.D. $20 instead of $15 like a normal month's subscription) from the transaction, making it all the much more safer by going through their system.
This is an exchange for goods and services rendered. It's more skills traded through the exchange of goods. A busy person who's working in real life is applying their skills to gain money; a 'not-so-busy' person has set up a perfect rotational method for farming out a lot of gold daily. Each is taking their skills and applying it to their time. In a mutually beneficial exchange the busy person is able to sell the C.R.E.D.D. on the Commodity Exchange to the player who's farmed a lot of gold. The guy who farms gold can keep on playing the game without paying out of their pocket because their gaming skills allow them to purchase more game time from the person who was busy and opted to buy gold from players who have had time to farm it.
The problem with 3rd party gold farming sites and the like is that they cheat, lie, and steal their way. They spam chat channels, which is annoying to the entire player base. The sites are filled with worms, Trojans, keyloggers, and other PC melting maliciousness. Oh, and did we forget how they hack and steal player accounts to then strip them of all wealth, use them to spam/farm, then get them banned from the game in a process that is hair-ripping-out for the players?
And yet....these sites have been around since before Vanilla WoW. Why? Because people -players-actually give them business! This also ruins the game's economy because in the process of restoration, when developers have to give items and gold back to a player, they have to make more that the gold farms stole and exchanged hands 2-20+ times. And that's just bloating up the system, something that a properly monitored, official exchange won't have and will help prevent.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
Yeh ... and "compromise" is relative. May be it is a much more fun game after steroid is legalizing. Not only the athletes can compete, the doctors can compete with better "super soldier serum" too.
If the rule is the same for everyone, and sanctioned by the owner of the game, there is no cheating.
It's sanctioned cheating.
I feel like I need to make the argument that the rules do not dictate what cheating is.
You can include cheating in the rules. This means having sanctioned cheating.
If the Board of Education one day decides that it will let students not only bring in answer sheets but sell them to the students as well. Making it a rule that buying answer sheets for tests that you can buy from you teacher does not stop that from being cheating. It's paid sanctioned cheating. It's still cheating. You are not studying and putting forth personal knowledge. Your taking a sleazy, dishonest, shortcut.
In video games spawning items for yourself is possible. This is cheating. Sometimes it could be done with console commands. However in some MMORPGs you can now just insert credit card and get a items. Instead of entering the cheat code a player makes a purchase.
Paid sanctioned cheating.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.
Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity. Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
I agree with this post. Especially when we are treating personal opinions as absolute facts, I feel like things like this only serve to further polarize the topics and debates. Every time I come back to revisit these forums it seems everything was more polarized than it was before mainly with the people that seem to hate the genre, which makes me question why they are here in the first place especially if they are of the type that refuses to play any MMO's. UO is still there, EQ is still there, AC is still there (i think?), DAOC is still there, why wouldn't they just go back to those games rather than sit here demand more of them or complain that no one is making that game they specifically want. It's poisonous towards this site's forum community imo.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.
Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
I agree with this post. Especially when we are treating personal opinions as absolute facts, I feel like things like this only serve to further polarize the topics and debates. Every time I come back to revisit these forums it seems everything was more polarized than it was before mainly with the people that seem to hate the genre, which makes me question why they are here in the first place especially if they are of the type that refuses to play any MMO's. UO is still there, EQ is still there, AC is still there (i think?), DAOC is still there, why wouldn't they just go back to those games rather than sit here demand more of them or complain that no one is making that game they specifically want. It's poisonous towards this site's forum community imo.
I think a lot of people have been questioning why they're allowed to be here, as of late.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.
Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Originally posted by nildenI like the baseball analogy.It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because smoking has negative effects regardless of personal opinion or rules.
RMT having negative effects is just personal opinion. A bad one can have negative effects, a good one can have positive effects depending on your particular desires and point of view.
If I generally like a game, but hate one part of it, I will still play the game, but not that part. If RMT allows me to skip that part to play the rest of the game I like - I view that as good.
And players in sports teams spending money that might give them an edge is discussed all the time. New streamlined swimsuits were a major discussion at Olympics, new balls and drivers in golf, new types of shoes for running...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by nildenI like the baseball analogy.It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because smoking has negative effects regardless of personal opinion or rules.
RMT having negative effects is just personal opinion. A bad one can have negative effects, a good one can have positive effects depending on your particular desires and point of view.
If I generally like a game, but hate one part of it, I will still play the game, but not that part. If RMT allows me to skip that part to play the rest of the game I like - I view that as good.
Explain how that is good? You are saying you think a part of MMOs sucks, but you still want to play another part? You are willing to pay to skip content. Does something not sound wrong to you about that? If you like PvP there are games out there that will give you that without paying to skip content. If you like raid style content there are games out there that offer that without having to pay to skip part of the game. Having to pay to skip part of a game is shady. It has nothing to do with personal point of view.
Originally posted by nildenI like the baseball analogy.It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because smoking has negative effects regardless of personal opinion or rules.RMT having negative effects is just personal opinion. A bad one can have negative effects, a good one can have positive effects depending on your particular desires and point of view. If I generally like a game, but hate one part of it, I will still play the game, but not that part. If RMT allows me to skip that part to play the rest of the game I like - I view that as good.
Explain how that is good? You are saying you think a part of MMOs sucks, but you still want to play another part? You are willing to pay to skip content. Does something not sound wrong to you about that? If you like PvP there are games out there that will give you that without paying to skip content. If you like raid style content there are games out there that offer that without having to pay to skip part of the game. Having to pay to skip part of a game is shady. It has nothing to do with personal point of view.
Explain how it is bad?
If I like the game, then I want to play the game, but don't like that part so skipping it IMO is good. Doing it would decrease my enjoyment of the game, IMO opinion it would be better if the game did not have that, but they likely put it in because other people do like it. So yes skipping it is good, and if costs me something to do that, that is fine. I do not view that as bad, I view the ability to skip the parts I don't like as good. No it does not sound wrong to me.
I recognize that an MMO will not be made exclusively for me, therefore there will be parts of them I do not like. Many parts the game does not require me to play other parts it does.
Simple example. Years and years ago in WoW the lvl 40 mounts were something like 100 gold (might have been 40, who cares, same principle applies). By the time I got to 40 I had earned about 10 gold, no I did not spend anything on anything. It took me a week of grinding dungeons and mobs to get the rest of that gold. Repeating the same content over and over and over for dozens of hours. It was horrible. I kept at it because I like the rest of the game. I promised I would never do that again.
Now I can just buy a mount. IMO this is much more enjoyable.
It has everything to do with personal point of view. There is nothing objective about it. Personal point of view is the only issue. I don't think paying to skip parts of the game I don't want to play is shady at all. If I generally like the game, but not this part then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by nildenI like the baseball analogy.It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because smoking has negative effects regardless of personal opinion or rules.RMT having negative effects is just personal opinion. A bad one can have negative effects, a good one can have positive effects depending on your particular desires and point of view. If I generally like a game, but hate one part of it, I will still play the game, but not that part. If RMT allows me to skip that part to play the rest of the game I like - I view that as good.
Explain how that is good? You are saying you think a part of MMOs sucks, but you still want to play another part? You are willing to pay to skip content. Does something not sound wrong to you about that? If you like PvP there are games out there that will give you that without paying to skip content. If you like raid style content there are games out there that offer that without having to pay to skip part of the game. Having to pay to skip part of a game is shady. It has nothing to do with personal point of view.
Explain how it is bad?
If I like the game, then I want to play the game, but don't like that part so skipping it IMO is good. Doing it would decrease my enjoyment of the game, IMO opinion it would be better if the game did not have that, but they likely put it in because other people do like it. So yes skipping it is good, and if costs me something to do that, that is fine. I do not view that as bad, I view the ability to skip the parts I don't like as good. No it does not sound wrong to me.
I recognize that an MMO will not be made exclusively for me, therefore there will be parts of them I do not like. Many parts the game does not require me to play other parts it does.
Simple example. Years and years ago in WoW the lvl 40 mounts were something like 100 gold (might have been 40, who cares, same principle applies). By the time I got to 40 I had earned about 10 gold, no I did not spend anything on anything. It took me a week of grinding dungeons and mobs to get the rest of that gold. Repeating the same content over and over and over for dozens of hours. It was horrible. I kept at it because I like the rest of the game. I promised I would never do that again.
Now I can just buy a mount. IMO this is much more enjoyable.
It has everything to do with personal point of view. There is nothing objective about it. Personal point of view is the only issue. I don't think paying to skip parts of the game I don't want to play is shady at all. If I generally like the game, but not this part then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
I can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.
Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because one (RMT) depends on mechanics within a game to exist, and depends on the rules within the game to have any sort of negative consequences. The other items (smoking, drinking and gambling) will incur negative consequences regardless of any rules or opinions associated with them.
If you cannot prove your point by talking about the items itself (RMT), then you don't have a point. Analogies should be used to enhance an existing idea, not prove it.
There are no negative consequences associated with RMT that will occur outside of any rules associated with RMT. A person who smokes, even a small amount is killing the psillia in their lungs and is increasing their chance of getting lung cancer and other cardio-vascular diseases. A person who drinks, even a small amount is increasing the odds that their liver will become damaged, and that their judgement will be impaired at a time when they need unimpaired judgement. Gambling is the only example that may be analogous to RMT, but the activity of gambling triggers reward pathways in the brain in a way that can lead to addiction, something that does not occur with RMT in MMORPGs. It's a bad analogy and does not prove or support your point. You must first show that RMT are inherently bad and always incur negative consequences, even in games where people both accept and find them useful, such as Eve Online. Then you can use the analogy to further enhance or illustrate your point.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.
Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because one (RMT) depends on mechanics within a game to exist, and depends on the rules within the game to have any sort of negative consequences. The other items (smoking, drinking and gambling) will incur negative consequences regardless of any rules or opinions associated with them.
If you cannot prove your point by talking about the items itself (RMT), then you don't have a point. Analogies should be used to enhance an existing idea, not prove it.
There are no negative consequences associated with RMT that will occur outside of any rules associated with RMT. A person who smokes, even a small amount is killing the psillia in their lungs and is increasing their chance of getting lung cancer and other cardio-vascular diseases. A person who drinks, even a small amount is increasing the odds that their liver will become damaged, and that their judgement will be impaired at a time when they need unimpaired judgement. Gambling is the only example that may be analogous to RMT, but the activity of gambling triggers reward pathways in the brain in a way that can lead to addiction, something that does not occur with RMT in MMORPGs. It's a bad analogy and does not prove or support your point. You must first show that RMT are inherently bad and always incur negative consequences, even in games where people both accept and find them useful, such as Eve Online. Then you can use the analogy to further enhance or illustrate your point.
So you are saying it's OK to scam someone or cheat because it doesn't have a proven negative impact on health? That is great logic.
If I like the game, then I want to play the game, but don't like that part so skipping it IMO is good. Doing it would decrease my enjoyment of the game, IMO opinion it would be better if the game did not have that, but they likely put it in because other people do like it. So yes skipping it is good, and if costs me something to do that, that is fine. I do not view that as bad, I view the ability to skip the parts I don't like as good. No it does not sound wrong to me.
I recognize that an MMO will not be made exclusively for me, therefore there will be parts of them I do not like. Many parts the game does not require me to play other parts it does.
Simple example. Years and years ago in WoW the lvl 40 mounts were something like 100 gold (might have been 40, who cares, same principle applies). By the time I got to 40 I had earned about 10 gold, no I did not spend anything on anything. It took me a week of grinding dungeons and mobs to get the rest of that gold. Repeating the same content over and over and over for dozens of hours. It was horrible. I kept at it because I like the rest of the game. I promised I would never do that again.
Now I can just buy a mount. IMO this is much more enjoyable.
It has everything to do with personal point of view. There is nothing objective about it. Personal point of view is the only issue. I don't think paying to skip parts of the game I don't want to play is shady at all. If I generally like the game, but not this part then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Do you really need someone to explain how cheating is bad? How instead of entering a cheat code a player just makes a purchase. Everyone running around with cash shop exclusive $19.99 mounts, getting rewards not for playing the game but just entering a credit card number.
Sure cheating looks good to the person doing it. It's the easy, shortcut, method with no risk all reward if the game encourages and supports it. I can see how it would come down to ethics and what you are willing to put up with. Some games are more like virtual shopping malls selling cheats than they are actual games. Personally I would like to be able to get anything in a game by actually playing the game to earn it.
It compromises the game.
That's not to say that cheating or paying to cheat can't be fun and running around with all the best gear and gold real life money can buy, plus all the coolest cosmetics and mounts, but how about actually playing the game to get rewards? It's pretty obvious from my point of view why people cheat and why it's bad.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Originally posted by nilden Originally posted by VengeSunsoarExplain how it is bad?If I like the game, then I want to play the game, but don't like that part so skipping it IMO is good. Doing it would decrease my enjoyment of the game, IMO opinion it would be better if the game did not have that, but they likely put it in because other people do like it. So yes skipping it is good, and if costs me something to do that, that is fine. I do not view that as bad, I view the ability to skip the parts I don't like as good. No it does not sound wrong to me.I recognize that an MMO will not be made exclusively for me, therefore there will be parts of them I do not like. Many parts the game does not require me to play other parts it does.Simple example. Years and years ago in WoW the lvl 40 mounts were something like 100 gold (might have been 40, who cares, same principle applies). By the time I got to 40 I had earned about 10 gold, no I did not spend anything on anything. It took me a week of grinding dungeons and mobs to get the rest of that gold. Repeating the same content over and over and over for dozens of hours. It was horrible. I kept at it because I like the rest of the game. I promised I would never do that again.Now I can just buy a mount. IMO this is much more enjoyable.It has everything to do with personal point of view. There is nothing objective about it. Personal point of view is the only issue. I don't think paying to skip parts of the game I don't want to play is shady at all. If I generally like the game, but not this part then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Do you really need someone to explain how cheating is bad? How instead of entering a cheat code a player just makes a purchase. Everyone running around with cash shop exclusive $19.99 mounts, getting rewards not for playing the game but just entering a credit card number.
Sure cheating looks good to the person doing it. It's the easy, shortcut, method with no risk all reward if the game encourages and supports it. I can see how it would come down to ethics and what you are willing to put up with. Some games are more like virtual shopping malls selling cheats than they are actual games. Personally I would like to be able to get anything in a game by actually playing the game to earn it.
It compromises the game.
That's not to say that cheating or paying to cheat can't be fun and running around with all the best gear and gold real life money can buy, plus all the coolest cosmetics and mounts, but how about actually playing the game to get rewards? It's pretty obvious from my point of view why people cheat and why it's bad.
No one needs to explain how cheating is bad. We were talking about RMT. RMT is not bad. RMT and cheating are not the same.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
[/quote]I can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.[/b][/quote]
Nothing you stated here is shady or bad outside of personal opinion
They could allow people to skip content without charging them, they decided to charge them. That isn't bad. Companies are allowed to charge for things. It may not be what you or I want, but it is not bad or shady.
I don't think the way it is set up is a scam or cheating.
I say when you pay for a game, especially an MMO, you are paying for the basic service, just like any other service, want more, pay more. We may not like it, but it is not bad, or a scam, or cheating or shady. How you feel about it is personal.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
[/quote]I can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.[/b][/quote]
Nothing you stated here is shady or bad outside of personal opinion
They could allow people to skip content without charging them, they decided to charge them. That isn't bad. Companies are allowed to charge for things. It may not be what you or I want, but it is not bad or shady.
I don't think the way it is set up is a scam or cheating.
I say when you pay for a game, especially an MMO, you are paying for the basic service, just like any other service, want more, pay more. We may not like it, but it is not bad, or a scam, or cheating or shady. How you feel about it is personal.
It's yours and other peoples blind acceptance of it that makes it work in general IMO. Some of the things you described as acceptable boggle my mind. What you are saying is it's OK to scam or cheat if it's legal. I guess that is true as casino's do the same thing. To me it's pretty obvious it is both a scam and cheating. You feel it isn't because the company says it isn't. We just disagree on that point.
[quote]Originally posted by Flyte27 [b][quote] Originally posted by VengeSunsoar [b] [/quote]I can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.[/b][/quote][/b] Nothing you stated here is shady or bad outside of personal opinionThey could allow people to skip content without charging them, they decided to charge them. That isn't bad. Companies are allowed to charge for things. It may not be what you or I want, but it is not bad or shady.I don't think the way it is set up is a scam or cheating. I say when you pay for a game, especially an MMO, you are paying for the basic service, just like any other service, want more, pay more. We may not like it, but it is not bad, or a scam, or cheating or shady. How you feel about it is personal.[/quote]It's yours and other peoples blind acceptance of it that makes it work in general IMO. Some of the things you described as acceptable boggle my mind. What you are saying is it's OK to scam or cheat if it's legal. I guess that is true as casino's do the same thing. To me it's pretty obvious it is both a scam and cheating. You feel it isn't because the company says it isn't. We just disagree on that point. [/b][/quote]
No Sorry it isn't blind acceptance.
I'm saying it isn't a scam at all: They are telling us what they offer, we make the decision to buy it or not. We are informed about the decision before we purchase.
It is not cheating because it is within the rules.
There is nothing blind about it. It is completely informed.
There is bad RMT - which if they did not tell us what it was, or they changed what we purchased to something else, that would be a scam.
No RMT I've done has ever done that = therefore RMT itself is not a scam. Just bad versions of it are.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoarExplain how it is bad?If I like the game, then I want to play the game, but don't like that part so skipping it IMO is good. Doing it would decrease my enjoyment of the game, IMO opinion it would be better if the game did not have that, but they likely put it in because other people do like it. So yes skipping it is good, and if costs me something to do that, that is fine. I do not view that as bad, I view the ability to skip the parts I don't like as good. No it does not sound wrong to me.I recognize that an MMO will not be made exclusively for me, therefore there will be parts of them I do not like. Many parts the game does not require me to play other parts it does.Simple example. Years and years ago in WoW the lvl 40 mounts were something like 100 gold (might have been 40, who cares, same principle applies). By the time I got to 40 I had earned about 10 gold, no I did not spend anything on anything. It took me a week of grinding dungeons and mobs to get the rest of that gold. Repeating the same content over and over and over for dozens of hours. It was horrible. I kept at it because I like the rest of the game. I promised I would never do that again.Now I can just buy a mount. IMO this is much more enjoyable.It has everything to do with personal point of view. There is nothing objective about it. Personal point of view is the only issue. I don't think paying to skip parts of the game I don't want to play is shady at all. If I generally like the game, but not this part then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Do you really need someone to explain how cheating is bad? How instead of entering a cheat code a player just makes a purchase. Everyone running around with cash shop exclusive $19.99 mounts, getting rewards not for playing the game but just entering a credit card number.
Sure cheating looks good to the person doing it. It's the easy, shortcut, method with no risk all reward if the game encourages and supports it. I can see how it would come down to ethics and what you are willing to put up with. Some games are more like virtual shopping malls selling cheats than they are actual games. Personally I would like to be able to get anything in a game by actually playing the game to earn it.
It compromises the game.
That's not to say that cheating or paying to cheat can't be fun and running around with all the best gear and gold real life money can buy, plus all the coolest cosmetics and mounts, but how about actually playing the game to get rewards? It's pretty obvious from my point of view why people cheat and why it's bad.
No one needs to explain how cheating is bad. We were talking about RMT. RMT is not bad. RMT and cheating are not the same.
How is RMT or paying for any in game item with a credit card instead of entering a cheat code not anything more than paid sanctioned cheating? All RMT boils down to is buying cheat codes. It's all just monetized cheating.
You could set up the entire system of cash shop stuff to be something you had to press tilde and type in like a single player games cheat system. Spawning in potions, items, mounts, whatever just by typing cheat codes. Only instead of typing cheat codes now you pay the company to spawn the items, gold, or whatever.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Originally posted by Flyte27 Originally posted by VengeSunsoarI can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.Nothing you stated here is shady or bad outside of personal opinionThey could allow people to skip content without charging them, they decided to charge them. That isn't bad. Companies are allowed to charge for things. It may not be what you or I want, but it is not bad or shady.I don't think the way it is set up is a scam or cheating. I say when you pay for a game, especially an MMO, you are paying for the basic service, just like any other service, want more, pay more. We may not like it, but it is not bad, or a scam, or cheating or shady. How you feel about it is personal.
It's yours and other peoples blind acceptance of it that makes it work in general IMO. Some of the things you described as acceptable boggle my mind. What you are saying is it's OK to scam or cheat if it's legal. I guess that is true as casino's do the same thing. To me it's pretty obvious it is both a scam and cheating. You feel it isn't because the company says it isn't. We just disagree on that point.
Lol after two direct responses to this character, it's not hard to see he only cares to see what he wants to see. Not worth disputing with this guy Sorry man, if you are going to blindly argue a stance without any real base, its kinda hard to argue/debate back, he's just going to keep drilling what he thinks everyone else should believe. In a nutshell, this is the issue within many among the general forum board at least. There is no debating, mostly the people that hate the genre just want to share and force their misery upon others
Well, guess I'll check back in another 3 or 4 months, nothing here has improved or changed. Let me know when more people start actually getting involved in MMO's and begin to quit this elitist attitude that the industry isn't good enough for them and MAYBE at that time we can start having real discussions about MMO's.
Comments
There have been many rule changes in baseball, not to mention other sports. In general, it's the reverse of what is being talked about here. Something that used to be allowed, such as a formula one car capable of literally suction cupping themselves to the road, is now considered cheating and is a finable or bannable offense. The "rules" such as they are change, just like most other things in society. When the rules change, what is cheating or not changes with them. It is very much a moving target.
When you consider that there is no ethics commity for developers, the rules from game to game are remarkably similar. That said, they are going to adjust those rules based on market pressure, not some idealistic idea of "fair". "Fair" probably hasn't been a consideration for general game play for a long time now.
Finally, I'd just like to note that if someone finds RMT acceptable in one game, but not in another, then RMT itself cannot be inherently bad or a method of cheating. Condeming a third game because it implements some form of RMT, when RMT itself is neither bad or good is just an attempt to appear objective and more credible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Some people do like them, obviously. Bot and wallhack and aimbot creators sell their programs for good money. Gold farmers sell their gold to players for good money (at least good in the countries the farmers come from). But until very recently it has never been considered acceptable in the West to spend your money getting an advantage this way. And certainly devs couldn't sell ingame currency before without getting boycotted by a lot of players. That is changing.
In my opinion it is going to make MMOs worse and not better. Guild Wars 2 was for me a fine example of the crap players who don't participate in sanctioned RMT have to put up with as far as nerfing legitimate player farming to make gold the player is going to use in the game for their own enjoyment. We'll see if Wildstar suffers from the same issue. I'm not optimistic.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
You could say the same thing about smoking, drinking, gambling couldn't you? For instance none of the above are bad for you if you only do them a little bit (in most cases), but they are all addictive and cause you to waste a lot of money. The same thing could be said about RMT. It's more then just a rule change within a game. Since you like sports I've never seen professional sport where you can spend money for items in game (regardless of weather or not they are actually improving your chances of winning). You might buy a player outside of the game, but that's a whole different ballgame IMO. People like to look at all sides of things these days and what we often end up with is indifference about something that is changing in society and is having a bad effect despite making a lot of money.
This is not cheating on terms of anything the OP gave an example for. Reall, could one just say that PUGing a raid is cheating? Why that example? A guild raid is usually hiring some PUG to come in and fill a spot that's empty for their weekly raid (they usually hire healers, maybe tanks, but almost never DPS because the sheer amount of extra there is).
Because basically C.R.E.D.D. is one player hiring another player to farm gold for them. The player who farmed the gold (which already had the gold anyways through gameplay) is getting paid in a month's subscription time. Carbine acts as a middle man in the situation by taking a 25% cut (the $5 extra that makes C.R.E.D.D. $20 instead of $15 like a normal month's subscription) from the transaction, making it all the much more safer by going through their system.
This is an exchange for goods and services rendered. It's more skills traded through the exchange of goods. A busy person who's working in real life is applying their skills to gain money; a 'not-so-busy' person has set up a perfect rotational method for farming out a lot of gold daily. Each is taking their skills and applying it to their time. In a mutually beneficial exchange the busy person is able to sell the C.R.E.D.D. on the Commodity Exchange to the player who's farmed a lot of gold. The guy who farms gold can keep on playing the game without paying out of their pocket because their gaming skills allow them to purchase more game time from the person who was busy and opted to buy gold from players who have had time to farm it.
The problem with 3rd party gold farming sites and the like is that they cheat, lie, and steal their way. They spam chat channels, which is annoying to the entire player base. The sites are filled with worms, Trojans, keyloggers, and other PC melting maliciousness. Oh, and did we forget how they hack and steal player accounts to then strip them of all wealth, use them to spam/farm, then get them banned from the game in a process that is hair-ripping-out for the players?
And yet....these sites have been around since before Vanilla WoW. Why? Because people -players-actually give them business! This also ruins the game's economy because in the process of restoration, when developers have to give items and gold back to a player, they have to make more that the gold farms stole and exchanged hands 2-20+ times. And that's just bloating up the system, something that a properly monitored, official exchange won't have and will help prevent.
I feel like I need to make the argument that the rules do not dictate what cheating is.
You can include cheating in the rules. This means having sanctioned cheating.
If the Board of Education one day decides that it will let students not only bring in answer sheets but sell them to the students as well. Making it a rule that buying answer sheets for tests that you can buy from you teacher does not stop that from being cheating. It's paid sanctioned cheating. It's still cheating. You are not studying and putting forth personal knowledge. Your taking a sleazy, dishonest, shortcut.
In video games spawning items for yourself is possible. This is cheating. Sometimes it could be done with console commands. However in some MMORPGs you can now just insert credit card and get a items. Instead of entering the cheat code a player makes a purchase.
Paid sanctioned cheating.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Bad example is bad. Smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol have well known, and measurable effects on the human body and mind, immediately upon consumption. If any and all of the arbitrary rules related to smoking and drinking were removed from existence, the negative consequences of smoking and drinking would still exist. Unlike gambling, there is no known correlation between RMT and maladaptive behaviors that cause a permanent change in brain chemistry or activity.
Again, if RMT are acceptable in one game, but not in another, then the RMT itself cannot be considered inherently bad or good. The difference between the 'bad' and 'good' is down to subjective opinions of individuals, not measurable, negative consequences.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree with this post. Especially when we are treating personal opinions as absolute facts, I feel like things like this only serve to further polarize the topics and debates. Every time I come back to revisit these forums it seems everything was more polarized than it was before mainly with the people that seem to hate the genre, which makes me question why they are here in the first place especially if they are of the type that refuses to play any MMO's. UO is still there, EQ is still there, AC is still there (i think?), DAOC is still there, why wouldn't they just go back to those games rather than sit here demand more of them or complain that no one is making that game they specifically want. It's poisonous towards this site's forum community imo.
I think a lot of people have been questioning why they're allowed to be here, as of late.
How is it any different? Because one has an effect on your health and the other does not that means the other is not a shady tactic being used by businesses? How is it subjectively good to sell fake items for real money in game. To the other poster why are you playing MMOs right now and why do people who spend money on RMT play MMOs? It's people like that who send the genre into a downward spiral. Think back to the original MMOs where people didn't want to put in the time and spend loads of cash for items, gold, and characters in game. This impacted everything in game. The only difference was it was illegal and treated as such by companies. Now it's legal and it still screws up games. Why are you paying not to play parts of games? Just don't play the game or find one of the many other non MMOs that would suit what you are looking for IE (play with friends without the other hassles). I don't see how people can look at it like it's anything but shady. I'm sure that is exactly what corporations want you to believe because that means more money for them.
Because smoking has negative effects regardless of personal opinion or rules.
RMT having negative effects is just personal opinion. A bad one can have negative effects, a good one can have positive effects depending on your particular desires and point of view.
If I generally like a game, but hate one part of it, I will still play the game, but not that part. If RMT allows me to skip that part to play the rest of the game I like - I view that as good.
And players in sports teams spending money that might give them an edge is discussed all the time. New streamlined swimsuits were a major discussion at Olympics, new balls and drivers in golf, new types of shoes for running...
Explain how that is good? You are saying you think a part of MMOs sucks, but you still want to play another part? You are willing to pay to skip content. Does something not sound wrong to you about that? If you like PvP there are games out there that will give you that without paying to skip content. If you like raid style content there are games out there that offer that without having to pay to skip part of the game. Having to pay to skip part of a game is shady. It has nothing to do with personal point of view.
Explain how it is bad?
If I like the game, then I want to play the game, but don't like that part so skipping it IMO is good. Doing it would decrease my enjoyment of the game, IMO opinion it would be better if the game did not have that, but they likely put it in because other people do like it. So yes skipping it is good, and if costs me something to do that, that is fine. I do not view that as bad, I view the ability to skip the parts I don't like as good. No it does not sound wrong to me.
I recognize that an MMO will not be made exclusively for me, therefore there will be parts of them I do not like. Many parts the game does not require me to play other parts it does.
Simple example. Years and years ago in WoW the lvl 40 mounts were something like 100 gold (might have been 40, who cares, same principle applies). By the time I got to 40 I had earned about 10 gold, no I did not spend anything on anything. It took me a week of grinding dungeons and mobs to get the rest of that gold. Repeating the same content over and over and over for dozens of hours. It was horrible. I kept at it because I like the rest of the game. I promised I would never do that again.
Now I can just buy a mount. IMO this is much more enjoyable.
It has everything to do with personal point of view. There is nothing objective about it. Personal point of view is the only issue. I don't think paying to skip parts of the game I don't want to play is shady at all. If I generally like the game, but not this part then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
I can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.
Because one (RMT) depends on mechanics within a game to exist, and depends on the rules within the game to have any sort of negative consequences. The other items (smoking, drinking and gambling) will incur negative consequences regardless of any rules or opinions associated with them.
If you cannot prove your point by talking about the items itself (RMT), then you don't have a point. Analogies should be used to enhance an existing idea, not prove it.
There are no negative consequences associated with RMT that will occur outside of any rules associated with RMT. A person who smokes, even a small amount is killing the psillia in their lungs and is increasing their chance of getting lung cancer and other cardio-vascular diseases. A person who drinks, even a small amount is increasing the odds that their liver will become damaged, and that their judgement will be impaired at a time when they need unimpaired judgement. Gambling is the only example that may be analogous to RMT, but the activity of gambling triggers reward pathways in the brain in a way that can lead to addiction, something that does not occur with RMT in MMORPGs. It's a bad analogy and does not prove or support your point. You must first show that RMT are inherently bad and always incur negative consequences, even in games where people both accept and find them useful, such as Eve Online. Then you can use the analogy to further enhance or illustrate your point.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So you are saying it's OK to scam someone or cheat because it doesn't have a proven negative impact on health? That is great logic.
Do you really need someone to explain how cheating is bad? How instead of entering a cheat code a player just makes a purchase. Everyone running around with cash shop exclusive $19.99 mounts, getting rewards not for playing the game but just entering a credit card number.
Sure cheating looks good to the person doing it. It's the easy, shortcut, method with no risk all reward if the game encourages and supports it. I can see how it would come down to ethics and what you are willing to put up with. Some games are more like virtual shopping malls selling cheats than they are actual games. Personally I would like to be able to get anything in a game by actually playing the game to earn it.
It compromises the game.
That's not to say that cheating or paying to cheat can't be fun and running around with all the best gear and gold real life money can buy, plus all the coolest cosmetics and mounts, but how about actually playing the game to get rewards? It's pretty obvious from my point of view why people cheat and why it's bad.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Sure cheating looks good to the person doing it. It's the easy, shortcut, method with no risk all reward if the game encourages and supports it. I can see how it would come down to ethics and what you are willing to put up with. Some games are more like virtual shopping malls selling cheats than they are actual games. Personally I would like to be able to get anything in a game by actually playing the game to earn it.
It compromises the game.
That's not to say that cheating or paying to cheat can't be fun and running around with all the best gear and gold real life money can buy, plus all the coolest cosmetics and mounts, but how about actually playing the game to get rewards? It's pretty obvious from my point of view why people cheat and why it's bad.
No one needs to explain how cheating is bad.
We were talking about RMT. RMT is not bad. RMT and cheating are not the same.
[/quote]I can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.[/b][/quote]
Nothing you stated here is shady or bad outside of personal opinion
They could allow people to skip content without charging them, they decided to charge them. That isn't bad. Companies are allowed to charge for things. It may not be what you or I want, but it is not bad or shady.
I don't think the way it is set up is a scam or cheating.
I say when you pay for a game, especially an MMO, you are paying for the basic service, just like any other service, want more, pay more. We may not like it, but it is not bad, or a scam, or cheating or shady. How you feel about it is personal.
It's yours and other peoples blind acceptance of it that makes it work in general IMO. Some of the things you described as acceptable boggle my mind. What you are saying is it's OK to scam or cheat if it's legal. I guess that is true as casino's do the same thing. To me it's pretty obvious it is both a scam and cheating. You feel it isn't because the company says it isn't. We just disagree on that point.
[quote]Originally posted by Flyte27
[b][quote] Originally posted by VengeSunsoar [b] [/quote]I can tell you why it is shady (though I have tried many times). First I don't believe a game should need to make everyone happy (just the audience it aims at). I don't see single player games giving people the option to skip parts of the game they don't like (hopefully). I will give an example using your logic though. You say that people should be able to skip content they don't want to do. I don't believe in that, but I'll go along with it. If they want to make everyone happy (as you suggest) they could simply allow people to skip the content they don't want to do without having to pay money in order to skip it (shady part). You could pay a flat fee up front and the game has options to let you do what you want. The way it is set up right now is more like a scam, but also cheating for not so smart people with a lot of money to burn. As I said before I believe you are paying for the whole entertainment package when paying for a game. You are not paying for individual parts of the game or even worse to skip parts of the game.[/b][/quote][/b] Nothing you stated here is shady or bad outside of personal opinion They could allow people to skip content without charging them, they decided to charge them. That isn't bad. Companies are allowed to charge for things. It may not be what you or I want, but it is not bad or shady. I don't think the way it is set up is a scam or cheating. I say when you pay for a game, especially an MMO, you are paying for the basic service, just like any other service, want more, pay more. We may not like it, but it is not bad, or a scam, or cheating or shady. How you feel about it is personal.[/quote]It's yours and other peoples blind acceptance of it that makes it work in general IMO. Some of the things you described as acceptable boggle my mind. What you are saying is it's OK to scam or cheat if it's legal. I guess that is true as casino's do the same thing. To me it's pretty obvious it is both a scam and cheating. You feel it isn't because the company says it isn't. We just disagree on that point. [/b][/quote]
No Sorry it isn't blind acceptance.
I'm saying it isn't a scam at all: They are telling us what they offer, we make the decision to buy it or not. We are informed about the decision before we purchase.
It is not cheating because it is within the rules.
There is nothing blind about it. It is completely informed.
There is bad RMT - which if they did not tell us what it was, or they changed what we purchased to something else, that would be a scam.
No RMT I've done has ever done that = therefore RMT itself is not a scam. Just bad versions of it are.
How is RMT or paying for any in game item with a credit card instead of entering a cheat code not anything more than paid sanctioned cheating? All RMT boils down to is buying cheat codes. It's all just monetized cheating.
You could set up the entire system of cash shop stuff to be something you had to press tilde and type in like a single player games cheat system. Spawning in potions, items, mounts, whatever just by typing cheat codes. Only instead of typing cheat codes now you pay the company to spawn the items, gold, or whatever.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Lol after two direct responses to this character, it's not hard to see he only cares to see what he wants to see. Not worth disputing with this guy
Sorry man, if you are going to blindly argue a stance without any real base, its kinda hard to argue/debate back, he's just going to keep drilling what he thinks everyone else should believe. In a nutshell, this is the issue within many among the general forum board at least. There is no debating, mostly the people that hate the genre just want to share and force their misery upon others 
Well, guess I'll check back in another 3 or 4 months, nothing here has improved or changed. Let me know when more people start actually getting involved in MMO's and begin to quit this elitist attitude that the industry isn't good enough for them and MAYBE at that time we can start having real discussions about MMO's.