Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
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I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
I believe you are completely missing the point of my comments.
Paying for food is inconsequential. You can also pay for food and eat doing anything in life (including games). You need to eat to live. It has nothing to do with the movie.
As for your second comment you just made my point. Once you pay for a book you own it.
Movies also cost lots of money to make so that is also a moot point.
See my edit.
The movie may cost a lot to make, a game cost a lot to make, Neither may cost a lot for me to play/watch.
I was comparing playing a game to watching a movie, not making a game to watching a movie.
I own that version, not other versions.
I see your point, but it still has no relevance on what I was talking about other then to prove that the current MMOs are nickel and dimming everyone. If it cost a lot of money to make both and a movie can survive on people paying 12 dollars for the movie or 20 dollars for the DVD/digital version then an MMO should be able to easily survive on 60 dollars and 15 dollars a month. It's nothing but shady business practice.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
---------
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
I believe you are completely missing the point of my comments.
Paying for food is inconsequential. You can also pay for food and eat doing anything in life (including games). You need to eat to live. It has nothing to do with the movie.
As for your second comment you just made my point. Once you pay for a book you own it.
Movies also cost lots of money to make so that is also a moot point.
See my edit.
The movie may cost a lot to make, a game cost a lot to make, Neither may cost a lot for me to play/watch.
I was comparing playing a game to watching a movie, not making a game to watching a movie.
I own that version, not other versions.
I see your point, but it still has no relevance on what I was talking about other then to prove that the current MMOs are nickel and dimming everyone. If it cost a lot of money to make both and a movie can survive on people paying 12 dollars for the movie or 20 dollars for the DVD/digital version then an MMO should be able to easily survive on 60 dollars and 15 dollars a month. It's nothing but shady business practice.
No it doesn't prove a point at all.
No game is nickel and diming me. I've spent less on cash shop games than I have in p2p games. They give me an option, I choose to take it or leave it. That is not nickel and diming in any way shape or form.
Making money and earning profit is not shady business practice. They put out a product, the product is not a necessity in life in any way shape or form. I look at the product and decide if I want to spend money on that.
There is nothing shady or dishonest about the company's approach or my approach.
And skipping the boring content was exactly the relevance - pay for the short sheet of the textbook for easier and (hopefully) more relevant study material, pay for the horse instead of grinding hours of already done, repetitive and now boring gameplay. Sounds like exactly the same thing to me.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't care if people want to call it cheating or just call it a cheapening the gaming experience (but not necessarily a lowering any prices). It's sad to me that players are accepting this in MMOs now. Eve is a different beast to some extent due to the forced investment of a set period of time but it's still not good. You can, after all, buy accounts with CCP's blessing as well. It's a silly practice in any game.
Should Wildstar players also be able to buy accounts from each other with the dev's blessing, too? If not, why not? It happens in Eve.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
If it's sanctioned, legal and permitted by the rules than it is literally the opposite of cheating.
edit - the rest is just your personal issue, which is fine. I don't think there is anything sleazy, deceitful, dishonest... about it.
That's very interesting to me. I could never play a game with godmode and not feel like it was cheating.
In my early training years before school when I was just a little personal trainer in a private gym I used to tell people that were right and wrong exercises.
Now many many years later I realize I was wrong. There is very little that in a gym that is wrong, there is a lot that is stupid and harmful but more likely than not it will also give them (should they persist) a positive effect if not exactly what they are looking for.
The same applies here. It would be cheating according to your particular code, that's fine. What are you playing the game for?
If your playing as a sport? god mode is cheating as it is circumventing the rule (game rule or your rule)
If your playing as an endurance test? speeding things up is cheating as it's circumventing the rule
If your just looking to past the time with some entertainment? It's not cheating as it is not breaking any rule (yours or the games)
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
---------
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
I believe you are completely missing the point of my comments.
Paying for food is inconsequential. You can also pay for food and eat doing anything in life (including games). You need to eat to live. It has nothing to do with the movie.
As for your second comment you just made my point. Once you pay for a book you own it.
Movies also cost lots of money to make so that is also a moot point.
See my edit.
The movie may cost a lot to make, a game cost a lot to make, Neither may cost a lot for me to play/watch.
I was comparing playing a game to watching a movie, not making a game to watching a movie.
I own that version, not other versions.
I see your point, but it still has no relevance on what I was talking about other then to prove that the current MMOs are nickel and dimming everyone. If it cost a lot of money to make both and a movie can survive on people paying 12 dollars for the movie or 20 dollars for the DVD/digital version then an MMO should be able to easily survive on 60 dollars and 15 dollars a month. It's nothing but shady business practice.
No it doesn't prove a point at all.
No game is nickel and diming me. I've spent less on cash shop games than I have in p2p games. They give me an option, I choose to take it or leave it. That is not nickel and diming in any way shape or form.
Making money and earning profit is not shady business practice. They put out a product, the product is not a necessity in life in any way shape or form. I look at the product and decide if I want to spend money on that.
There is nothing shady or dishonest about the company's approach or my approach.
And skipping the boring content was exactly the relevance - pay for the short sheet of the textbook for easier and (hopefully) more relevant study material, pay for the horse instead of grinding hours of already done, repetitive and now boring gameplay. Sounds like exactly the same thing to me.
Let me know when books, movies, or any other form of entertainment start charging you while you are reading, watching, or playing them. To me any entertainment package that tries to get you to pay money while you are experiencing the entertainment is bad. You may not spend as much money as in pay to play, but someone is. That is quite clear or devs would stick with the traditional payment model (which should be plenty of money for them). According to the definition of nickel and diming MMOs are indeed doing that these days. Another point I would make is if you skip parts of books and movies I feel sorry for you. That is obviously your personal choice, but you are not getting the full experience in anything by doing so and may be missing something important. Some things in life are acquired taste.
To drain or destroy bit by bit, especially financially
For many years, I was the only person in my family who gamed. So I was very surprised to recently discover that my sister has started playing an mmo. And then was stunned to hear that she plays in godmode due to a Russian hack because it's how to play when you don't want to spend any money.
She is now completely invested in her characters and this is the only way she knows how to play her game. She has no sense that it is cheating or risky to her pc security. And I find this totally mind-boggling.
But it is interesting to contemplate when I think of how many of us got started. A friend or family member, who taught us what they knew. Something we stumbled across on the internet or in a magazine. Without a frame of reference, we have no sense of right or wrong; it's just how to make things happen. By the time someone comes along and questions our methods, we are very invested in the results, so not open to change.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I have another potential example of why it's cheating. Lets say you are playing a sport. During the game you decide you don't want to run from one end of the field to another. You pay someone to do all the running for you. Even if it's not cheating it defeats the purpose of games in general. Most people don't like a part of games, but they don't pay to skip the parts they don't like. That is silly in concept and in reality.
Nope sorry but the game isn't a sport, it's just an entertainment, like watching a movie, or reading a book.
Besides that people skip things in sports all the time, pinch hitters, scrimmage, sometimes completely re-organizing the game for casual play. Happens all the time. Sometimes in the process making a new game based on the old one (T-ball, California kick ball...)
Only in professional or team sports do they not allow people to change things, and most don't play video games like that.
Sanctioned cheating is an oxymoron. It is not cheating, it is just something that someone else doesn't like.
Do you pay to skip part of a book or movie? Do you pay extra for one chapter or actor in the movie that wasn't available at the start?
Often I've paid for a movie and fast forwarded scenes I didn't like, same with books.
I've paid more for extra's in movies too.
That's not what I asked though is it? I asked if you paid to skip a chapter in a book or paid to have an actor inserted into the movie while it's playing. Paying for extras in a movie is a little different. You pay outside of the movie. You don't pay while the move is being played. I never pay for extras though.
Your question is talking about 2 different values. A 2 week to several year game costing potentially hundreds of dollars, vs a 2 hour movie for $12.
And yes for a re-release when there is extra content I did have to pay to see it.
Extra content in a book - you bet I've had to pay more.
Once I own them they cant' charge me again for what I already have, and skipping past it, something is completely my decision.
I don't think paying for extra's in a movie is any different.
Yes I can pay while the movie is playing. I can have them bring me refreshments while the movie is playing and pay for it in my seat.
I cannot pay to skip content when I watch a movie in a theatre because it would directly impact too many people who might enjoy that content. However if I rent the theatre alone you bet I can skip content.
Me buying a horse too skip past grinding for coin to buy a horse, does not impact your ability to grind for the coin to buy the horse.
---------
I've done paintball like that as well, not knowing what your in for before you purchase it is definitely not fun. When I go I prefer to get a small group of us and rent the field.
edit - the horse is already part of the game, or a similar one anyway. I'm just paying to skip the grind.
I believe you are completely missing the point of my comments.
Paying for food is inconsequential. You can also pay for food and eat doing anything in life (including games). You need to eat to live. It has nothing to do with the movie.
As for your second comment you just made my point. Once you pay for a book you own it.
Movies also cost lots of money to make so that is also a moot point.
See my edit.
The movie may cost a lot to make, a game cost a lot to make, Neither may cost a lot for me to play/watch.
I was comparing playing a game to watching a movie, not making a game to watching a movie.
I own that version, not other versions.
I see your point, but it still has no relevance on what I was talking about other then to prove that the current MMOs are nickel and dimming everyone. If it cost a lot of money to make both and a movie can survive on people paying 12 dollars for the movie or 20 dollars for the DVD/digital version then an MMO should be able to easily survive on 60 dollars and 15 dollars a month. It's nothing but shady business practice.
No it doesn't prove a point at all.
No game is nickel and diming me. I've spent less on cash shop games than I have in p2p games. They give me an option, I choose to take it or leave it. That is not nickel and diming in any way shape or form.
Making money and earning profit is not shady business practice. They put out a product, the product is not a necessity in life in any way shape or form. I look at the product and decide if I want to spend money on that.
There is nothing shady or dishonest about the company's approach or my approach.
And skipping the boring content was exactly the relevance - pay for the short sheet of the textbook for easier and (hopefully) more relevant study material, pay for the horse instead of grinding hours of already done, repetitive and now boring gameplay. Sounds like exactly the same thing to me.
Let me know when books, movies, or any other form of entertainment start charging you while you are reading, watching, or playing them. To me any entertainment package that tries to get you to pay money while you are experiencing the entertainment is bad. You may not spend as much money as in pay to play, but someone is. That is quite clear or devs would stick with the traditional payment model (which should be plenty of money for them). According to the definition of nickel and diming MMOs are indeed doing that these days. Another point I would make is if you skip parts of books and movies I feel sorry for you. That is obviously your personal choice, but you are not getting the full experience in anything by doing so and may be missing something important. Some things in life are acquired taste.
To drain or destroy bit by bit, especially financially
I may not be getting the full experience, but in many cases I am getting the preferred experience. I don't need to read 2 pages of description about a tree falling to know what is going on and appreciate what is going on.
There is a great deal of just filler with no added value other than filler in movies, books and games.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If it's sanctioned, legal and permitted by the rules than it is literally the opposite of cheating.
edit - the rest is just your personal issue, which is fine. I don't think there is anything sleazy, deceitful, dishonest... about it.
That's very interesting to me. I could never play a game with godmode and not feel like it was cheating.
I might feel like I was wasting my time, but unless it was something that was not approved by the game's developers or not put into the game by the game's developers, I wouldn't feel like I was cheating. It's the difference between "Easy", "Normal" and "Hard" modes in RPGs or Survival Horror games. If I play Silent Hill 3 on Easy Combat (which I'm now wishing I did), I'm not cheating, I'm just getting an experience that focuses more on the environment and story instead of getting killed.
Now, suppose I download a hack that makes me immune to getting hurt. Well, then I'm cheating. If I tell people I've finished the game, it would have to come with the caveat that I downloaded a hack to make it past all the monsters. To me, that's really the difference. If I'm playing the game and tell people I'm playing the game, if I'm using a hack, Easy game mode, etc., as long as people know that I'm getting the assist, then it doesn't matter. It only matters if I'm bragging about how good I am at playing games, but I neglect to mention that I never play on Normal or Hard mode, and I also use cheats, hacks and whatever other advantages I can buy or download.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I basically agree with the OP's ideas. I don't necessarily agree with every specific example...P2W is definitely a grey area nowadays so it's hard to say what is P2W and what isn't.
But regardless, the fact remains that in the UO/EQ era of gaming, RMT was by and large considered "cheating" by both the developers and the players. In fact, players would generally look down on someone if they found out their account was "ebayed." It was even used as a perjorative if a player was bad at the game (dude, are you ebayed or something???)
Nowadays it is much different. RMT and buying power/progression is viewed as par for the course. There is of course a scale here and people will only tolerate so much power being sold...but honestly, I think that the scale is shifting so that people are accepting more and more power being sold as normal. Just compare how it used to be where any RMT was considered cheating, and now where RMT is commonplace...and you can probably see the writing on the wall if this trend continues.
Personally...I think this trend is harmful. Most MMORPGs are really about achievement at their core. MMORPG players are willing to spend a huge amount of time in the game to get that achievement they crave. But what exactly makes that achievement valuable?
If you just get a medal for nothing...that medal means nothing and you will feel like you achieved nothing. However, if you get a medal for winning a race, then all of a sudden that medal is a symbol of your achievement.
The same premise applies in games. If you get max level through playing the game, then that means something. If you get max level through paying $30...then it is meaningless. Even worse...if you get max level through player but others get it through paying $30, then it diminishes your symbol of achievement because it doesn't really mean anything anymore.
And this is the dangerous territory that RMT treads. By selling the symbol of the player's achievement...they make the achievement meaningless. Achievement is about the journey not the destination. By selling the destination, all your doing is cheating people and cheapening the achievements of others.
I mean, imagine what would happen if the Olympic commission just sold anyone a gold medal for $20,000?
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Selling a gold medal for $20,000 would go against the purpose of the sport.
Some people argued the same thing when the Olympics started allowing pro athletes to compete.
But anyway, this comparison is going to be fun!
Maybe selling the medal is a bit much. What about selling a two meter headstart, though? Anyone who is really good can overcome such a slight difference. And the Olympics isn't one on one anyway most of the time. It's all about the teams. The advantage is so tiny as to be meaningless. And if you don't like it, don't compete. Or buy your own headstart. Or start your own Olympics. The host countries have to make money somehow!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
edit - and the change from amateur to pro is very similar. At that time the purpose or one anyway was to showcase amateur athletes, allowing professionals in circumvents that.
Now the purpose (or one anyway) is to determine who is the best at whatever sport is being done.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Selling a gold medal for $20,000 would go against the purpose of the sport.
GW2> buy gems > sell for gold> Craft to 80> buy all equipment>buy a legendary.
Tihs you can do with REAL money. If it's not P2W, I don't know what is.
WIldstar > Buy sub fees > Sell to players> buy gear, etc.
Same shit will be in AA; Although I hope the sand box features will keep it fresh enough.
If not spending real money for ingame currency is not cheating I don't know what is.
It makes games shallow and they arr designed around the cash to ingame currency transfer. GW2 is the prime example of this. Or should I say Gem Store 2.
Just like selling an olympic medal, goes against the sport. Selling ingame currency and designing the game around it, takes away everything a MMO is about, character progression and community. Nothing is worth shit since a player can just buy it. Investing time into a game and having to think if X hours is worth grinding or whether to just spend real life cash to skip the grind.
It's toxic and it's accepted by the players, until players stop accepting and using it it won't change.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Selling a gold medal for $20,000 would go against the purpose of the sport.
GW2> buy gems > sell for gold> Craft to 80> buy all equipment>buy a legendary.
Tihs you can do with REAL money. If it's not P2W, I don't know what is.
WIldstar > Buy sub fees > Sell to players> buy gear, etc.
Same shit will be in AA; Although I hope the sand box features will keep it fresh enough.
If not spending real money for ingame currency is not cheating I don't know what is.
It makes games shallow and they arr designed around the cash to ingame currency transfer. GW2 is the prime example of this. Or should I say Gem Store 2.
Just like selling an olympic medal, goes against the sport. Selling ingame currency and designing the game around it, takes away everything a MMO is about, character progression and community. Nothing is worth shit since a player can just buy it. Investing time into a game and having to think if X hours is worth grinding or whether to just spend real life cash to skip the grind.
It's toxic and it's accepted by the players, until players stop accepting and using it it won't change.
I'm not saying it is or isn't p2w.
I'm saying what is the purpose of the event?
If the purpose is to see who's the best, paying would be cheating. If it's a race to the top, paying for shorter periods would be cheating.
If it's just entertainment, paying does not circumvent anything.
It makes games shallow for you. It goes against what you feel is the purpose of the game, not against the actual purpose of the game (mostly because there really is no specific defined purpose).
Selling in game gold, whether I participate or not, does not take away any purpose of sense of achievement or sense of fun or really anything to me, for GW2, or likely wildstar. Or any other video game I've played.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
edit - and the change from amateur to pro is very similar. At that time the purpose or one anyway was to showcase amateur athletes, allowing professionals in circumvents that.
Now the purpose (or one anyway) is to determine who is the best at whatever sport is being done.
That goes to the heart of why I honestly don't care if other people want to buy in game crap with real money. Until it affects my enjoyment of a game. Because of course the point of me playing is to enjoy it, and I definitely don't enjoy borked economies or PvP against players who have better gear because they opened their wallet and bought it. I also don't like the thought of being passed over for a dungeon group or other PvE in favor of someone who is passing out cash shop potions like they're candy.
Since I mostly solo it's the economy and the nerfing of good gold grinding options for the purpose of selling more in game currency to fools with fat wallets that really irritates me personally.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I basically agree with the OP's ideas. I don't necessarily agree with every specific example...P2W is definitely a grey area nowadays so it's hard to say what is P2W and what isn't.
But regardless, the fact remains that in the UO/EQ era of gaming, RMT was by and large considered "cheating" by both the developers and the players. In fact, players would generally look down on someone if they found out their account was "ebayed." It was even used as a perjorative if a player was bad at the game (dude, are you ebayed or something???)
Nowadays it is much different. RMT and buying power/progression is viewed as par for the course. There is of course a scale here and people will only tolerate so much power being sold...but honestly, I think that the scale is shifting so that people are accepting more and more power being sold as normal. Just compare how it used to be where any RMT was considered cheating, and now where RMT is commonplace...and you can probably see the writing on the wall if this trend continues.
Personally...I think this trend is harmful. Most MMORPGs are really about achievement at their core. MMORPG players are willing to spend a huge amount of time in the game to get that achievement they crave. But what exactly makes that achievement valuable?
If you just get a medal for nothing...that medal means nothing and you will feel like you achieved nothing. However, if you get a medal for winning a race, then all of a sudden that medal is a symbol of your achievement.
The same premise applies in games. If you get max level through playing the game, then that means something. If you get max level through paying $30...then it is meaningless. Even worse...if you get max level through player but others get it through paying $30, then it diminishes your symbol of achievement because it doesn't really mean anything anymore.
And this is the dangerous territory that RMT treads. By selling the symbol of the player's achievement...they make the achievement meaningless. Achievement is about the journey not the destination. By selling the destination, all your doing is cheating people and cheapening the achievements of others.
I mean, imagine what would happen if the Olympic commission just sold anyone a gold medal for $20,000?
This is pretty much how I feel, but I doubt I could say it so well. Basically people are accepting cheating so it is OK (not cheating). In the future they will let you pay to automatically get anywhere you want in the game with any item and that will become accepted. Unfortunately since people don't seem to want to look out for their own best interest nothing will change. They don't even seem to realize they are devaluing something or they don't care.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
Well more and more devs are getting away with this, so I guess there are a lot of gamers who don't value an equal playing field where real money doesn't enter into it beyond the purchase of the box, expansions, and a sub. I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't happy about this, though.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I still think people place value on items, and should someone be able to buy something that makes them noticeable stronger, so far anyway they tend to raise hell.
Buying time though? I don't care. I don't place value on time spent on a game.
Edit - I should say I don't care anymore that is. When back in early 2000's I actually viewed pl'ing as minor cheating, bought characters as major cheating. Back then my purpose was to get to high levels and get the items. 15 years later I just don't care about max level. I'm just going to play because I like playing. Everyone else can do what they want.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
If it's sanctioned, legal and permitted by the rules than it is literally the opposite of cheating.
edit - the rest is just your personal issue, which is fine. I don't think there is anything sleazy, deceitful, dishonest... about it.
I see your point, but it still has no relevance on what I was talking about other then to prove that the current MMOs are nickel and dimming everyone. If it cost a lot of money to make both and a movie can survive on people paying 12 dollars for the movie or 20 dollars for the DVD/digital version then an MMO should be able to easily survive on 60 dollars and 15 dollars a month. It's nothing but shady business practice.
No it doesn't prove a point at all.
No game is nickel and diming me. I've spent less on cash shop games than I have in p2p games. They give me an option, I choose to take it or leave it. That is not nickel and diming in any way shape or form.
Making money and earning profit is not shady business practice. They put out a product, the product is not a necessity in life in any way shape or form. I look at the product and decide if I want to spend money on that.
There is nothing shady or dishonest about the company's approach or my approach.
And skipping the boring content was exactly the relevance - pay for the short sheet of the textbook for easier and (hopefully) more relevant study material, pay for the horse instead of grinding hours of already done, repetitive and now boring gameplay. Sounds like exactly the same thing to me.
I don't care if people want to call it cheating or just call it a cheapening the gaming experience (but not necessarily a lowering any prices). It's sad to me that players are accepting this in MMOs now. Eve is a different beast to some extent due to the forced investment of a set period of time but it's still not good. You can, after all, buy accounts with CCP's blessing as well. It's a silly practice in any game.
Should Wildstar players also be able to buy accounts from each other with the dev's blessing, too? If not, why not? It happens in Eve.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
That's very interesting to me. I could never play a game with godmode and not feel like it was cheating.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/In my early training years before school when I was just a little personal trainer in a private gym I used to tell people that were right and wrong exercises.
Now many many years later I realize I was wrong. There is very little that in a gym that is wrong, there is a lot that is stupid and harmful but more likely than not it will also give them (should they persist) a positive effect if not exactly what they are looking for.
The same applies here. It would be cheating according to your particular code, that's fine. What are you playing the game for?
If your playing as a sport? god mode is cheating as it is circumventing the rule (game rule or your rule)
If your playing as an endurance test? speeding things up is cheating as it's circumventing the rule
If your just looking to past the time with some entertainment? It's not cheating as it is not breaking any rule (yours or the games)
Let me know when books, movies, or any other form of entertainment start charging you while you are reading, watching, or playing them. To me any entertainment package that tries to get you to pay money while you are experiencing the entertainment is bad. You may not spend as much money as in pay to play, but someone is. That is quite clear or devs would stick with the traditional payment model (which should be plenty of money for them). According to the definition of nickel and diming MMOs are indeed doing that these days. Another point I would make is if you skip parts of books and movies I feel sorry for you. That is obviously your personal choice, but you are not getting the full experience in anything by doing so and may be missing something important. Some things in life are acquired taste.
To drain or destroy bit by bit, especially financially
For many years, I was the only person in my family who gamed. So I was very surprised to recently discover that my sister has started playing an mmo. And then was stunned to hear that she plays in godmode due to a Russian hack because it's how to play when you don't want to spend any money.
She is now completely invested in her characters and this is the only way she knows how to play her game. She has no sense that it is cheating or risky to her pc security. And I find this totally mind-boggling.
But it is interesting to contemplate when I think of how many of us got started. A friend or family member, who taught us what they knew. Something we stumbled across on the internet or in a magazine. Without a frame of reference, we have no sense of right or wrong; it's just how to make things happen. By the time someone comes along and questions our methods, we are very invested in the results, so not open to change.
Good questions, OP.
I may not be getting the full experience, but in many cases I am getting the preferred experience. I don't need to read 2 pages of description about a tree falling to know what is going on and appreciate what is going on.
There is a great deal of just filler with no added value other than filler in movies, books and games.
I might feel like I was wasting my time, but unless it was something that was not approved by the game's developers or not put into the game by the game's developers, I wouldn't feel like I was cheating. It's the difference between "Easy", "Normal" and "Hard" modes in RPGs or Survival Horror games. If I play Silent Hill 3 on Easy Combat (which I'm now wishing I did), I'm not cheating, I'm just getting an experience that focuses more on the environment and story instead of getting killed.
Now, suppose I download a hack that makes me immune to getting hurt. Well, then I'm cheating. If I tell people I've finished the game, it would have to come with the caveat that I downloaded a hack to make it past all the monsters. To me, that's really the difference. If I'm playing the game and tell people I'm playing the game, if I'm using a hack, Easy game mode, etc., as long as people know that I'm getting the assist, then it doesn't matter. It only matters if I'm bragging about how good I am at playing games, but I neglect to mention that I never play on Normal or Hard mode, and I also use cheats, hacks and whatever other advantages I can buy or download.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I basically agree with the OP's ideas. I don't necessarily agree with every specific example...P2W is definitely a grey area nowadays so it's hard to say what is P2W and what isn't.
But regardless, the fact remains that in the UO/EQ era of gaming, RMT was by and large considered "cheating" by both the developers and the players. In fact, players would generally look down on someone if they found out their account was "ebayed." It was even used as a perjorative if a player was bad at the game (dude, are you ebayed or something???)
Nowadays it is much different. RMT and buying power/progression is viewed as par for the course. There is of course a scale here and people will only tolerate so much power being sold...but honestly, I think that the scale is shifting so that people are accepting more and more power being sold as normal. Just compare how it used to be where any RMT was considered cheating, and now where RMT is commonplace...and you can probably see the writing on the wall if this trend continues.
Personally...I think this trend is harmful. Most MMORPGs are really about achievement at their core. MMORPG players are willing to spend a huge amount of time in the game to get that achievement they crave. But what exactly makes that achievement valuable?
If you just get a medal for nothing...that medal means nothing and you will feel like you achieved nothing. However, if you get a medal for winning a race, then all of a sudden that medal is a symbol of your achievement.
The same premise applies in games. If you get max level through playing the game, then that means something. If you get max level through paying $30...then it is meaningless. Even worse...if you get max level through player but others get it through paying $30, then it diminishes your symbol of achievement because it doesn't really mean anything anymore.
And this is the dangerous territory that RMT treads. By selling the symbol of the player's achievement...they make the achievement meaningless. Achievement is about the journey not the destination. By selling the destination, all your doing is cheating people and cheapening the achievements of others.
I mean, imagine what would happen if the Olympic commission just sold anyone a gold medal for $20,000?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Some people argued the same thing when the Olympics started allowing pro athletes to compete.
But anyway, this comparison is going to be fun!
Maybe selling the medal is a bit much. What about selling a two meter headstart, though? Anyone who is really good can overcome such a slight difference. And the Olympics isn't one on one anyway most of the time. It's all about the teams. The advantage is so tiny as to be meaningless. And if you don't like it, don't compete. Or buy your own headstart. Or start your own Olympics. The host countries have to make money somehow!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
What is the purpose of the event?
edit - and the change from amateur to pro is very similar. At that time the purpose or one anyway was to showcase amateur athletes, allowing professionals in circumvents that.
Now the purpose (or one anyway) is to determine who is the best at whatever sport is being done.
GW2> buy gems > sell for gold> Craft to 80> buy all equipment>buy a legendary.
Tihs you can do with REAL money. If it's not P2W, I don't know what is.
WIldstar > Buy sub fees > Sell to players> buy gear, etc.
Same shit will be in AA; Although I hope the sand box features will keep it fresh enough.
If not spending real money for ingame currency is not cheating I don't know what is.
It makes games shallow and they arr designed around the cash to ingame currency transfer. GW2 is the prime example of this. Or should I say Gem Store 2.
Just like selling an olympic medal, goes against the sport. Selling ingame currency and designing the game around it, takes away everything a MMO is about, character progression and community. Nothing is worth shit since a player can just buy it. Investing time into a game and having to think if X hours is worth grinding or whether to just spend real life cash to skip the grind.
It's toxic and it's accepted by the players, until players stop accepting and using it it won't change.
I'm not saying it is or isn't p2w.
I'm saying what is the purpose of the event?
If the purpose is to see who's the best, paying would be cheating. If it's a race to the top, paying for shorter periods would be cheating.
If it's just entertainment, paying does not circumvent anything.
It makes games shallow for you. It goes against what you feel is the purpose of the game, not against the actual purpose of the game (mostly because there really is no specific defined purpose).
Selling in game gold, whether I participate or not, does not take away any purpose of sense of achievement or sense of fun or really anything to me, for GW2, or likely wildstar. Or any other video game I've played.
That goes to the heart of why I honestly don't care if other people want to buy in game crap with real money. Until it affects my enjoyment of a game. Because of course the point of me playing is to enjoy it, and I definitely don't enjoy borked economies or PvP against players who have better gear because they opened their wallet and bought it. I also don't like the thought of being passed over for a dungeon group or other PvE in favor of someone who is passing out cash shop potions like they're candy.
Since I mostly solo it's the economy and the nerfing of good gold grinding options for the purpose of selling more in game currency to fools with fat wallets that really irritates me personally.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
This is pretty much how I feel, but I doubt I could say it so well. Basically people are accepting cheating so it is OK (not cheating). In the future they will let you pay to automatically get anywhere you want in the game with any item and that will become accepted. Unfortunately since people don't seem to want to look out for their own best interest nothing will change. They don't even seem to realize they are devaluing something or they don't care.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Well more and more devs are getting away with this, so I guess there are a lot of gamers who don't value an equal playing field where real money doesn't enter into it beyond the purchase of the box, expansions, and a sub. I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't happy about this, though.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I still think people place value on items, and should someone be able to buy something that makes them noticeable stronger, so far anyway they tend to raise hell.
Buying time though? I don't care. I don't place value on time spent on a game.
Edit - I should say I don't care anymore that is. When back in early 2000's I actually viewed pl'ing as minor cheating, bought characters as major cheating. Back then my purpose was to get to high levels and get the items. 15 years later I just don't care about max level. I'm just going to play because I like playing. Everyone else can do what they want.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.