Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
I haven't missed your point. I just don't agree with your point.
I don't think there is anything lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
Regarding the principle thing, again it is hogwash. This is a game, an entertainment product, the principles and values assigned to a game, specifically an entertainment product are and should be vastly different than the principles and values assigned to something in real life. People treat them different because they are different.
Relaxing standards in an entertainment product in no way shape or form means that standards will be relaxed in a real life setting. It's a logical fallacy to think that.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
I haven't missed your point. I just don't agree with your point.
I don't think there is anything lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
Regarding the principle thing, again it is hogwash. This is a game, an entertainment product, the principles and values assigned to a game, specifically an entertainment product are and should be vastly different than the principles and values assigned to something in real life. People treat them different because they are different.
One poster made just made a whole post of what is lost by RMT and skipping content. Their points were all valid IMO. I can probably add a few more.
Nothing has value in the game. The in game economy becomes pointless. Achievements become worthless.
Principles in a game are essential to it's value. If cheating is allowed then the game has no value anymore. Besides which money is real life. You are wasting your money on fake items and skipping parts of a game you could be doing something else with. At the same time you are ruining the games and other things in real life with you philosophy. As I've said many times things have as much value as you give to them. Nothing has value if you don't give it value. It matters little if it's in real life or a game.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
I haven't missed your point. I just don't agree with your point.
I don't think there is anything lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
Regarding the principle thing, again it is hogwash. This is a game, an entertainment product, the principles and values assigned to a game, specifically an entertainment product are and should be vastly different than the principles and values assigned to something in real life. People treat them different because they are different.
One poster made just made a whole post of what is lost by RMT and skipping content. Their points were all valid IMO. I can probably add a few more.
Nothing has value in the game. The in game economy becomes pointless. Achievements become worthless.
Principles in a game are essential to it's value. If cheating is allowed then the game has no value anymore. Besides which money is real life. You are wasting your money on fake items and skipping parts of a game you could be doing something else with. At the same time you are ruining the games and other things in real life with you philosophy. As I've said many times things have as much value as you give to them. Nothing has value if you don't give it value. It matters little if it's in real life or a game.
And they are valid according to your views.
They are not valid according to my views.
RMT does not change what I value or do not value about a game. It doesn't change how I feel about leveling or end game or achievements.
Value in a game is completely subjective. If I am enjoying myself playing a game, I don't give 2 wits who buys what or does what. I dont' think it is ruining the game. It is completely subjective.
Regarding real life I am able to separate value in a game from value in real life. I am not ruining anything in real life.
Real life vs a game matters a great great deal.
Setting and context matter.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
I haven't missed your point. I just don't agree with your point.
I don't think there is anything lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
Regarding the principle thing, again it is hogwash. This is a game, an entertainment product, the principles and values assigned to a game, specifically an entertainment product are and should be vastly different than the principles and values assigned to something in real life. People treat them different because they are different.
One poster made just made a whole post of what is lost by RMT and skipping content. Their points were all valid IMO. I can probably add a few more.
Nothing has value in the game. The in game economy becomes pointless. Achievements become worthless.
Principles in a game are essential to it's value. If cheating is allowed then the game has no value anymore. Besides which money is real life. You are wasting your money on fake items and skipping parts of a game you could be doing something else with. At the same time you are ruining the games and other things in real life with you philosophy. As I've said many times things have as much value as you give to them. Nothing has value if you don't give it value. It matters little if it's in real life or a game.
And they are valid according to your views.
They are not valid according to my views.
RMT does not change what I value or do not value about a game. It doesn't change how I feel about leveling or end game or achievements.
Value in a game is completely subjective. If I am enjoying myself playing a game, I don't give 2 wits who buys what or does what. I dont' think it is ruining the game. It is completely subjective.
Regarding real life I am able to separate value in a game from value in real life. I am not ruining anything in real life.
Real life vs a game matters a great great deal.
Setting and context matter.
I don't believe it is subjective. The game's economy, achievements, socialization, and meaning are gone. There is no real point to the play games at all. There is nothing of value to take away from them.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
I haven't missed your point. I just don't agree with your point.
I don't think there is anything lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
Regarding the principle thing, again it is hogwash. This is a game, an entertainment product, the principles and values assigned to a game, specifically an entertainment product are and should be vastly different than the principles and values assigned to something in real life. People treat them different because they are different.
One poster made just made a whole post of what is lost by RMT and skipping content. Their points were all valid IMO. I can probably add a few more.
Nothing has value in the game. The in game economy becomes pointless. Achievements become worthless.
Principles in a game are essential to it's value. If cheating is allowed then the game has no value anymore. Besides which money is real life. You are wasting your money on fake items and skipping parts of a game you could be doing something else with. At the same time you are ruining the games and other things in real life with you philosophy. As I've said many times things have as much value as you give to them. Nothing has value if you don't give it value. It matters little if it's in real life or a game.
And they are valid according to your views.
They are not valid according to my views.
RMT does not change what I value or do not value about a game. It doesn't change how I feel about leveling or end game or achievements.
Value in a game is completely subjective. If I am enjoying myself playing a game, I don't give 2 wits who buys what or does what. I dont' think it is ruining the game. It is completely subjective.
Regarding real life I am able to separate value in a game from value in real life. I am not ruining anything in real life.
Real life vs a game matters a great great deal.
Setting and context matter.
I don't believe it is subjective. The game's economy, achievements, socialization, and meaning are gone. There is no real point to the play games at all. There is nothing of value to take away from them.
That's where it is subjective.
You feel the game's economy, achievements, socialization, and meaning are gone. I don't think they are. The only that might be impacted IMO is economy and that is again IMO impacted more to the unlimited resources from the game design than any real life cash issues. There is nothing objective about socialization or achievements and meaning that you can say is impacted, it's only your feeling, your perception of them that is impacted.
There is nothing of value to you.
There is the same level of value to me and many others.
That is almost the literal definition of subjective.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
The point is not moot.
We just don't agree on what their own self interest is.
In the video game format, To me getting more of the things that entertain me and less of the things that don't entertain me is acting in my own self interest.
"Letting something slide in game, you let something slide somewhere else"
What a load of hogwash. If you cannot differentiate an entertainment product from real life, you should not be playing games.
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
I haven't missed your point. I just don't agree with your point.
I don't think there is anything lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
Regarding the principle thing, again it is hogwash. This is a game, an entertainment product, the principles and values assigned to a game, specifically an entertainment product are and should be vastly different than the principles and values assigned to something in real life. People treat them different because they are different.
One poster made just made a whole post of what is lost by RMT and skipping content. Their points were all valid IMO. I can probably add a few more.
Nothing has value in the game. The in game economy becomes pointless. Achievements become worthless.
Principles in a game are essential to it's value. If cheating is allowed then the game has no value anymore. Besides which money is real life. You are wasting your money on fake items and skipping parts of a game you could be doing something else with. At the same time you are ruining the games and other things in real life with you philosophy. As I've said many times things have as much value as you give to them. Nothing has value if you don't give it value. It matters little if it's in real life or a game.
And they are valid according to your views.
They are not valid according to my views.
RMT does not change what I value or do not value about a game. It doesn't change how I feel about leveling or end game or achievements.
Value in a game is completely subjective. If I am enjoying myself playing a game, I don't give 2 wits who buys what or does what. I dont' think it is ruining the game. It is completely subjective.
Regarding real life I am able to separate value in a game from value in real life. I am not ruining anything in real life.
Real life vs a game matters a great great deal.
Setting and context matter.
I don't believe it is subjective. The game's economy, achievements, socialization, and meaning are gone. There is no real point to the play games at all. There is nothing of value to take away from them.
That's where it is subjective.
You feel the game's economy, achievements, socialization, and meaning are gone. I don't think they are. The only that that is impacted IMO is economy and that is again IMO impacted more to the unlimited resources that real life cash.
There is nothing of value to you.
There is to me and many others.
That is almost the literal definition of subjective.
As I said I don't believe it is. From what I have seen it's basically a fact that all of these things are true. If the game has value to you why are you skipping content in game? To me it seems obvious you don't really care about the games you play at all. That is the main problem to me. If you don't really care about the games you play then you aren't going to care if the game is ruined in many ways. I guess I shouldn't really expect less from someone who likes to skip things in games.
We've gone over this before. Just because I like a game, does not mean I like all parts of it.
Games are entertainment to me, nothing more. They mean as much to me as a movie, usually less than a book. I play them till I"m bored then I move on. That's all they are.
You believe those devalue issues are true, that's fine. You believing that does not make it fact.
Achievement is largely subjective. What one person views as an achievement, another views as a waste. Meaning is completely subjective.
Whether a game is ruined or not is also subjective. I feel many games have gotten better. I think EQ2 is way way better now than even a couple years ago.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I didn't know people actually play these games, I thought it was the norm to just buy a max level toon and some gold and have at it in end game. I guess its subjective.
It was a rather natural development that started more than a decade ago. You just feel it more now as it finally became mainstream.
people don't want to do repetitive boring tasks to get to the fun part in a hobby. For any raider/pvp player the leveling phase is just wasted time. If they can save 50-100 hours of their life paying for a bot / leveling service that costs 1-2hours of their jobs wage it would be insane not to do it.
Also remember that gamers grow up -less time and more money will drive more into buying those services to keep up with their hobby.
Originally posted by Ikonis I stopped reading when you said Eve PLEX is pay to win. Shows you know a absolutely nothing about the game.
Well in some sort it is.
If I can convert my RL currency into ISK by using PLEX, I can easily make billions of ISK - depends how much money you want to invest.
This allows you to buy almost every ship and equipment you want. When I still played EvE, a properly fitted T3 Cruiser cost 2-3 billions. Farming this amount of ISK can be a tedious process. Using PLEX you could get it instant for roundabout € 30.
But I agree that being able to buy certain ships at will doen't really make it pay to win.
You keep using this word "convert" as though you just sell the PLEX to an NPC in the game or something. Someone farmed the ISK and is trading that for the 30 days gametime you spent 20 dollars on for about 700m isk right now. Sure you can make billions by buying ISK but it's not as though it's just magically appearing out of thin air. And if there is no demand for PLEX you won't make squat.
A conversion is the process of changing or causing something to change from one form to another. In this case real money is converted into ISK by using the PLEX system.
Originally posted by Gdemami
Originally posted by Asariasha
If I can convert my RL currency into ISK by using PLEX, I can easily make billions of ISK - depends how much money you want to invest.
This allows you to buy almost every ship and equipment you want. When I still played EvE, a properly fitted T3 Cruiser cost 2-3 billions. Farming this amount of ISK can be a tedious process. Using PLEX you could get it instant for roundabout € 30.
1) Any one can buy a T3 cruiser or just anything so there is nothing to "Win" about your RL money spent on PLEX.
Therefore P2W does not apply.
2) You are not "converting" ISK, you sell PLEX item. Those are 2 different things.
It absolutely does not matter where your items comes from - whether it was purchased for RL money, purchased from player, looted or obtained via any other game mechanics.
You are still leaving out any context of RMT and just argue some mechanical principles relating to use of RL money and video games.
In traditional MMOs a closed economic system applies. This means that your wealth and income is solely defined by your in-game activities. You want to get that nice T3 Cruiser? Go and farm ISK for it by running missions, hunting in asteroid belts, mining, equipment/ship dealing or any activity increasing your wealth.
The PLEX system breaks this concept. While there is no direct influx of ISK into the game, certain players with high RL income may convert their RL money into ISK by buying a PLEX and then selling it to other players. It is an unlimited shortcut to wealth.
So, what about pay-to-win? Urban Dictionary says: P2W-Games are games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Raising billions of ISK simply by using the PLEX system can be considered "a faster rate than everyone else". Dependant on your available free time for playing and the options available to you in-game, earning a billion in EvE can be a matter of a few days. Keep in mind that the majority of players has no access to 10/10s, 0.0 5/5 hunting systems. worm holes or the viable minus security systems.
With these billions of ISK the player may then buy high-end equipment. Due to EvEs dynamic nature one ship doesn't make a win in alliance warfare or roaming gangs. But a properly fitted T3 ship can easily stand against several opponents. Especially in the hands of an experienced players.
Bottomline: As mentioned in my previous post, the PLEX system does not directly mean pay-to-win. But what it does is breaking the concept of equality of players by allowing to buy-in.
Originally posted by AsariashaA conversion is the process of changing or causing something to change from one form to another. In this case real money is converted into ISK by using the PLEX system.
You still do not understand the concept of PLEX. As poster above tried to explain to you, RL money are NOT converted into ISK.
When you are selling a PLEX, one has to make ISK ingame to be able to afford it. There is no Conversion - you exhange a Labour for Product.
Originally posted by AsariashaIn traditional MMOs a closed economic system applies.
An economy has inputs and outputs, it does not matter what they are. No more, no less.
Originally posted by AsariashaBut what it does is breaking the concept of equality of players by allowing to buy-in.
There is no equality.
Not all EVE players earn ingame ISK at the same rate. Not all people have same resources - spare time to play, skills, witt, community, w/e ....or in fact real cash to spent on the game. No difference there.
You either have what it takes to be "successfull" or you don't. That is a fundamental underlaying concept. Qualifiers may vary but no qualifiers are right or wrong.
It was a rather natural development that started more than a decade ago. You just feel it more now as it finally became mainstream.
people don't want to do repetitive boring tasks to get to the fun part in a hobby. For any raider/pvp player the leveling phase is just wasted time. If they can save 50-100 hours of their life paying for a bot / leveling service that costs 1-2hours of their jobs wage it would be insane not to do it.
Also remember that gamers grow up -less time and more money will drive more into buying those services to keep up with their hobby.
Haha the first thing I thought of when I read this was "Model Cars". I'd bet a model car would make the average MMORPG gamers head freaking explode. I can hear it now.
Haha the first thing I thought of when I read this was "Model Cars". I'd bet a model car would make the average MMORPG gamers head freaking explode. I can hear it now.
"OMG What's the point?!?! It doesn't even MOVE!!"
"Paint your car!! 15 Bucks PST!!!"
"Free, FAST! Assembly. Visit www.Carz4Realz.com"
This is actually a brilliant comparison if you think of tabletop-games. You know stuff like Warhammer Fantasy where you first assemble and paint and then play. I enjoyed the painting part and did lots of custom model modifications but some people paid others to paint their armies as it was a requirement to play on tournaments. Same story - not everyone likes everything about a hobby so they pay to skip parts.
When did cheating become ok in MMO's? When the devs don't handle the issue of cheating seriously and discourage players from doing so in a timely manner.
I'll use FFXI as an example:
10 years ago players that were found out to be cheaters, botters, or gold buyers were ostracized and excluded from everything to the point of quitting the game. We policed ourselves.
Gradually, through the power of internet detectives, it was revealed that many of the top guilds were cheating and using claiming bots and tools for world spawns (which were the only endgame at the time). Many were also caught involved in gold and character sales.
As more and more players saw this going on and saw those players still in game and playing instead of being banned, the entire crusade of the players went from trying to stop it to realizing they couldn't. An "if you can't beat em join em" mentality took over and the game was never the same.
Long story short: If players see cheating is tolerated, be it by the devs or players, they'll cheat.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
Actually.. I think it's something more like this..
I think a lot of people would love the idea of "not having to grind levels or quests to achieve what they want". Just consider how many people argue that levels should be eliminated completely.
What I also think, however, is this is another example of how short-sighted gamers can be, making them their own worst enemy. They want shorter-term achievement/gratification. It seems to be one of the more common solutions to "everything wrong with MMOs" according to much of what I read around here and elsewhere.
What people don't recognize is that that's also the reason they find themselves bored and complaining about nothing/little to do after only a few weeks.
They literally do not realize they are the cause of their own problems... that wanting everything "faster and easier" feels great "now", in the short term... but hinders the experience in the long term. It leaves them bored, wanting and ready to jump ship for the next game as soon as they get their Beta invite. And of course they'll repeat the same exact process in that game as well, be in the same position, and still wonder why "the devs keep getting it wrong".
The devs keep getting it wrong because the players keep sending the message that "faster, easier and more convenient" is what they want. And yet, every time, it falls short.
There's a problem here. A serious disconnect. And it lies with both the players and the devs. Devs are trying to do what players are asking for. Faster progression, more solo, more rewards, more hand-holding... more more faster faster easier easier.
Consider this...
1st/2nd and even some earlier 3rd gen MMOs spent relatively little on the development of their games. Yet, they earned large, loyal playerbases of people who stayed with them for years - over a decade in some cases. And many of them are still playing to this day... despite all the other, supposedly "better" options out there.
I know a popular response to that is,"Well there weren't as many options then, that's why", but that's really a BS answer. For two reasons:
Whether there's 5 options, or 500.. people are not going to voluntarily continue to spend time and/or money on something they're not getting any value out of. If it's not fun to them, they ain't sticking around. And before anyone scoffs at that... look in the mirror and ask yourself that question. Will you continue to voluntarily spend time and money on any activity you are not getting sufficient enjoyment out of? To put it another way, if there's two steak houses in your town, and they both suck, you're not going to say "well, their food is horrible, but I guess we have no choice but to eat there because they're the only options in town". No, you're going to find another option. Buy some steaks and cook them at home. Go for a chicken dinner instead. Whatever. Unless you get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of playing games you consider crappy and don't enjoy... that's a whole other situation, then.
There may have been "fewer choices back then", however - though it didn't really make a difference back then, either (see #1) - in the last 8 or so years, the number of options have multiplied, almost exponentially. There are tons of options out there now - which many will argue are superior to anything from the 1-3rd generation of MMOs. Yet, people continue to keep playing those old-school games... and they continue to run, right along side all these 'superior, modern alternatives'. There's a reason for that.. and it isn't only "because they already have so much time invested in them". It's because those games still provide a depth of experience that no modern MMO has been able to even hint at, much less emulate.
By contrast, developers today are throwing 100s of millions of dollars at MMOs, and just can't seem to get it right. People, in large numbers, find themselves through all the content that interests them (an important point many people ignore), are bored and ready to move on to the next game within the first few months. Some people say 'so, why is that a problem? Who says you have to play a MMO for years?'. I have a pretty good idea why, but you'd be best of asking the people complaining that no new MMO has managed to keep them interested longer than a few weeks/months. They could answer you better than I could. I'd bet it has something to do with the idea that MMOs are supposed to be long-term hobbies... on-going adventures, potentially without end, in massive virtual worlds that continue expanding. They're not short-term "finish it and move on" affairs, like your typical console-style game.
It's going to require a major change in the players.. and in the devs. The players have to go first, though. Devs will not spend money on something until there's a demonstrable demand for it, and they feel comfortable spending money on it.
So, the question is.. Are those gamers, weened on the "casual friendly, highly accessible, constant gratification, queue-up-and-wait themepark" experience willing to step out of their own comfort zone and actually try something different? Not just dip their toes in, find it's "too different from what they're used to" and say "Nope.. too different. Devs, you have to make this game more like the last 15 I played, because that's the standard". But actually immerse themselves in it, adapt to new mechanics, get used to interacting with other players more, cut the umbilical cord, remove the training wheels and start becoming more reliant on themselves and/or their fellow players, rather than letting quest helpers and add-ons literally spell everything out for them...
Players demanding "faster, easier, more convenient" is largely what brought the genre to where it is now. The players are going to have to lead the way to get MMOs back to being large virtual worlds... not merely "games".
Instead of asking for levels to be removed, so they can burn through content and get bored even faster, people should start asking for the levels to be made more meaningful and full so they don't seem like a chore/bore, and each "ding!" of a new level feels like an accomplishment. Y'know... like it used to.
Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.
In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
Actually.. I think it's something more like this..
I think a lot of people would love the idea of "not having to grind levels or quests to achieve what they want". Just consider how many people argue that levels should be eliminated completely.
What I also think, however, is this is another example of how short-sighted gamers can be, making them their own worst enemy. They want shorter-term achievement/gratification. It seems to be one of the more common solutions to "everything wrong with MMOs" according to much of what I read around here and elsewhere.
What people don't recognize is that that's also the reason they find themselves bored and complaining about nothing/little to do after only a few weeks.
They literally do not realize they are the cause of their own problems... that wanting everything "faster and easier" feels great "now", in the short term... but hinders the experience in the long term. It leaves them bored, wanting and ready to jump ship for the next game as soon as they get their Beta invite. And of course they'll repeat the same exact process in that game as well, be in the same position, and still wonder why "the devs keep getting it wrong".
The devs keep getting it wrong because the players keep sending the message that "faster, easier and more convenient" is what they want. And yet, every time, it falls short.
There's a problem here. A serious disconnect. And it lies with both the players and the devs. Devs are trying to do what players are asking for. Faster progression, more solo, more rewards, more hand-holding... more more faster faster easier easier.
Consider this...
1st/2nd and even some earlier 3rd gen MMOs spent relatively little on the development of their games. Yet, they earned large, loyal playerbases of people who stayed with them for years - over a decade in some cases. And many of them are still playing to this day... despite all the other, supposedly "better" options out there.
I know a popular response to that is,"Well there weren't as many options then, that's why", but that's really a BS answer. For two reasons:
Whether there's 5 options, or 500.. people are not going to voluntarily continue to spend time and/or money on something they're not getting any value out of. If it's not fun to them, they ain't sticking around. And before anyone scoffs at that... look in the mirror and ask yourself that question. Will you continue to voluntarily spend time and money on any activity you are not getting sufficient enjoyment out of? To put it another way, if there's two steak houses in your town, and they both suck, you're not going to say "well, their food is horrible, but I guess we have no choice but to eat there because they're the only options in town". No, you're going to find another option. Buy some steaks and cook them at home. Go for a chicken dinner instead. Whatever. Unless you get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of playing games you consider crappy and don't enjoy... that's a whole other situation, then.
There may have been "fewer choices back then", however - though it didn't really make a difference back then, either (see #1) - in the last 8 or so years, the number of options have multiplied, almost exponentially. There are tons of options out there now - which many will argue are superior to anything from the 1-3rd generation of MMOs. Yet, people continue to keep playing those old-school games... and they continue to run, right along side all these 'superior, modern alternatives'. There's a reason for that.. and it isn't only "because they already have so much time invested in them". It's because those games still provide a depth of experience that no modern MMO has been able to even hint at, much less emulate.
By contrast, developers today are throwing 100s of millions of dollars at MMOs, and just can't seem to get it right. People, in large numbers, find themselves through all the content that interests them (an important point many people ignore), are bored and ready to move on to the next game within the first few months. Some people say 'so, why is that a problem? Who says you have to play a MMO for years?'. I have a pretty good idea why, but you'd be best of asking the people complaining that no new MMO has managed to keep them interested longer than a few weeks/months. They could answer you better than I could. I'd bet it has something to do with the idea that MMOs are supposed to be long-term hobbies... on-going adventures, potentially without end, in massive virtual worlds that continue expanding. They're not short-term "finish it and move on" affairs, like your typical console-style game.
It's going to require a major change in the players.. and in the devs. The players have to go first, though. Devs will not spend money on something until there's a demonstrable demand for it, and they feel comfortable spending money on it.
So, the question is.. Are those gamers, weened on the "casual friendly, highly accessible, constant gratification, queue-up-and-wait themepark" experience willing to step out of their own comfort zone and actually try something different? Not just dip their toes in, find it's "too different from what they're used to" and say "Nope.. too different. Devs, you have to make this game more like the last 15 I played, because that's the standard". But actually immerse themselves in it, adapt to new mechanics, get used to interacting with other players more, cut the umbilical cord, remove the training wheels and start becoming more reliant on themselves and/or their fellow players, rather than letting quest helpers and add-ons literally spell everything out for them...
Players demanding "faster, easier, more convenient" is largely what brought the genre to where it is now. The players are going to have to lead the way to get MMOs back to being large virtual worlds... not merely "games".
Instead of asking for levels to be removed, so they can burn through content and get bored even faster, people should start asking for the levels to be made more meaningful and full so they don't seem like a chore/bore, and each "ding!" of a new level feels like an accomplishment. Y'know... like it used to.
1.Whether there's 5 options, or 500.. people are not going to voluntarily continue to spend time and/or money on something they're not getting any value out of. If it's not fun to them, they ain't sticking around. And before anyone scoffs at that... look in the mirror and ask yourself that question. Will you continue to voluntarily spend time and money on any activity you are not getting sufficient enjoyment out of? To put it another way, if there's two steak houses in your town, and they both suck, you're not going to say "well, their food is horrible, but I guess we have no choice but to eat there because they're the only options in town". No, you're going to find another option. Buy some steaks and cook them at home. Go for a chicken dinner instead. Whatever. Unless you get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of playing games you consider crappy and don't enjoy... that's a whole other situation, then."
You make one big fat assumption here: that they will know of new restaurants. A lot of players tend to have a "don't care about other games" tendency, they don't inform themselves at all about newcomers.
If the goal was to ensure that people who have less time to play could catch up to those with more time, it would be easy to implement. Rewards in drops and xp gain can grow for every hour of account time spent logged off. If the devs wanted to monetize that, they could sell it as an option. $15 a month buys regular game time, $20 a month buys you the sub plus bonuses for time spent logged out. Then they could fiddle around and see what is a good rate of drops and xp that makes people happy versus logging in, killing a bunny rabbit, dinging to level cap with the best gear and a full bank account, and feeling like you shouldn't have bothered.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
1.Whether there's 5 options, or 500.. people are not going to voluntarily continue to spend time and/or money on something they're not getting any value out of. If it's not fun to them, they ain't sticking around. And before anyone scoffs at that... look in the mirror and ask yourself that question. Will you continue to voluntarily spend time and money on any activity you are not getting sufficient enjoyment out of? To put it another way, if there's two steak houses in your town, and they both suck, you're not going to say "well, their food is horrible, but I guess we have no choice but to eat there because they're the only options in town". No, you're going to find another option. Buy some steaks and cook them at home. Go for a chicken dinner instead. Whatever. Unless you get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of playing games you consider crappy and don't enjoy... that's a whole other situation, then."
You make one big fat assumption here: that they will know of new restaurants. A lot of players tend to have a "don't care about other games" tendency, they don't inform themselves at all about newcomers.
I believe you are saying that MMOs have bad parts and those bad parts need to be cut out.
I believe what the other poster was saying is that those parts you consider bad aren't bad parts. People just don't realize this as they want instant gratification.
To me I feel I can see through the game mechanics of today's MMO games far to easily to ever waste money on them.
A better question is if you are paying to skip content then either the game is crappy or you don't care about the game. I feel the problem with today's gamers in they don't care about the game. It's not different with a movie, book, or any form of entertainment. If you aren't getting anything out of it then it's worthless.
The biggest question is why are people playing games they don't enjoy and paying money to skip content when there are so many forms of entertainment out there. Likely there would be one that fits their needs. Instead they try to bastardize a whole genre and they don't really care because from the comments I've read they don't care about the games at all. They are just entertainment. How they are entertainment if they have no meaning is beyond me.
Just because the rules get changed doesn't make something instantly not cheating.
AMAZING.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Who said anything about playing gangs we don't enjoy. We specifically said we do enjoy the game just not that part of it. We know there is no game that will be perfect. There is no game that will cater to me and my tastes alone.
I am not asking anything to be changed. The devs are offering it to to us.
Who said anything about no meaning.
I dont think you are reading the comments people are saying at all.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Who said anything about playing gangs we don't enjoy. We specifically said we do enjoy the game just not that part of it. We know there is no game that will be perfect. There is no game that will cater to me and my tastes alone.
I am not asking anything to be changed. The devs are offering it to to us.
Who said anything about no meaning.
I dont think you are reading the comments people are saying at all.
You specifically said in some of you posts that you don't care about RMT because you don't care about the games. They are just "entertainment" to you. In essence they mean nothing to you.
Comments
I believe you missed my point on both points as usual.
As pointed out by some posters there is a lot lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
As for the hogwash it has nothing to do with differentiating between entertainment and real life. That would be more like if I kill someone in game it's not different then killing someone in real life. What I was saying is that if you let principles slide in one thing you are likely to let them slide in other things as well. That has nothing to do with differentiating between real life and fantasy. It is just general principles of people.
I haven't missed your point. I just don't agree with your point.
I don't think there is anything lost by allowing people to skip content or buy things in game.
Regarding the principle thing, again it is hogwash. This is a game, an entertainment product, the principles and values assigned to a game, specifically an entertainment product are and should be vastly different than the principles and values assigned to something in real life. People treat them different because they are different.
Relaxing standards in an entertainment product in no way shape or form means that standards will be relaxed in a real life setting. It's a logical fallacy to think that.
One poster made just made a whole post of what is lost by RMT and skipping content. Their points were all valid IMO. I can probably add a few more.
Nothing has value in the game. The in game economy becomes pointless. Achievements become worthless.
Principles in a game are essential to it's value. If cheating is allowed then the game has no value anymore. Besides which money is real life. You are wasting your money on fake items and skipping parts of a game you could be doing something else with. At the same time you are ruining the games and other things in real life with you philosophy. As I've said many times things have as much value as you give to them. Nothing has value if you don't give it value. It matters little if it's in real life or a game.
And they are valid according to your views.
They are not valid according to my views.
RMT does not change what I value or do not value about a game. It doesn't change how I feel about leveling or end game or achievements.
Value in a game is completely subjective. If I am enjoying myself playing a game, I don't give 2 wits who buys what or does what. I dont' think it is ruining the game. It is completely subjective.
Regarding real life I am able to separate value in a game from value in real life. I am not ruining anything in real life.
Real life vs a game matters a great great deal.
Setting and context matter.
I don't believe it is subjective. The game's economy, achievements, socialization, and meaning are gone. There is no real point to the play games at all. There is nothing of value to take away from them.
That's where it is subjective.
You feel the game's economy, achievements, socialization, and meaning are gone. I don't think they are. The only that might be impacted IMO is economy and that is again IMO impacted more to the unlimited resources from the game design than any real life cash issues. There is nothing objective about socialization or achievements and meaning that you can say is impacted, it's only your feeling, your perception of them that is impacted.
There is nothing of value to you.
There is the same level of value to me and many others.
That is almost the literal definition of subjective.
As I said I don't believe it is. From what I have seen it's basically a fact that all of these things are true. If the game has value to you why are you skipping content in game? To me it seems obvious you don't really care about the games you play at all. That is the main problem to me. If you don't really care about the games you play then you aren't going to care if the game is ruined in many ways. I guess I shouldn't really expect less from someone who likes to skip things in games.
We've gone over this before. Just because I like a game, does not mean I like all parts of it.
Games are entertainment to me, nothing more. They mean as much to me as a movie, usually less than a book. I play them till I"m bored then I move on. That's all they are.
You believe those devalue issues are true, that's fine. You believing that does not make it fact.
Achievement is largely subjective. What one person views as an achievement, another views as a waste. Meaning is completely subjective.
Whether a game is ruined or not is also subjective. I feel many games have gotten better. I think EQ2 is way way better now than even a couple years ago.
It was a rather natural development that started more than a decade ago.
You just feel it more now as it finally became mainstream.
people don't want to do repetitive boring tasks to get to the fun part in a hobby. For any raider/pvp player the leveling phase is just wasted time. If they can save 50-100 hours of their life paying for a bot / leveling service that costs 1-2hours of their jobs wage it would be insane not to do it.
Also remember that gamers grow up -less time and more money will drive more into buying those services to keep up with their hobby.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
A conversion is the process of changing or causing something to change from one form to another. In this case real money is converted into ISK by using the PLEX system.
In traditional MMOs a closed economic system applies. This means that your wealth and income is solely defined by your in-game activities. You want to get that nice T3 Cruiser? Go and farm ISK for it by running missions, hunting in asteroid belts, mining, equipment/ship dealing or any activity increasing your wealth.
The PLEX system breaks this concept. While there is no direct influx of ISK into the game, certain players with high RL income may convert their RL money into ISK by buying a PLEX and then selling it to other players. It is an unlimited shortcut to wealth.
So, what about pay-to-win? Urban Dictionary says: P2W-Games are games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Raising billions of ISK simply by using the PLEX system can be considered "a faster rate than everyone else". Dependant on your available free time for playing and the options available to you in-game, earning a billion in EvE can be a matter of a few days. Keep in mind that the majority of players has no access to 10/10s, 0.0 5/5 hunting systems. worm holes or the viable minus security systems.
With these billions of ISK the player may then buy high-end equipment. Due to EvEs dynamic nature one ship doesn't make a win in alliance warfare or roaming gangs. But a properly fitted T3 ship can easily stand against several opponents. Especially in the hands of an experienced players.
Bottomline: As mentioned in my previous post, the PLEX system does not directly mean pay-to-win. But what it does is breaking the concept of equality of players by allowing to buy-in.
You still do not understand the concept of PLEX. As poster above tried to explain to you, RL money are NOT converted into ISK.
When you are selling a PLEX, one has to make ISK ingame to be able to afford it. There is no Conversion - you exhange a Labour for Product.
An economy has inputs and outputs, it does not matter what they are. No more, no less.
There is no equality.
Not all EVE players earn ingame ISK at the same rate. Not all people have same resources - spare time to play, skills, witt, community, w/e ....or in fact real cash to spent on the game. No difference there.
You either have what it takes to be "successfull" or you don't. That is a fundamental underlaying concept. Qualifiers may vary but no qualifiers are right or wrong.
You just want to the game played your way...
Haha the first thing I thought of when I read this was "Model Cars". I'd bet a model car would make the average MMORPG gamers head freaking explode. I can hear it now.
"OMG What's the point?!?! It doesn't even MOVE!!"
"Paint your car!! 15 Bucks PST!!!"
"Free, FAST! Assembly. Visit www.Carz4Realz.com"
This is actually a brilliant comparison if you think of tabletop-games. You know stuff like Warhammer Fantasy where you first assemble and paint and then play. I enjoyed the painting part and did lots of custom model modifications but some people paid others to paint their armies as it was a requirement to play on tournaments. Same story - not everyone likes everything about a hobby so they pay to skip parts.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
When did cheating become ok in MMO's? When the devs don't handle the issue of cheating seriously and discourage players from doing so in a timely manner.
I'll use FFXI as an example:
10 years ago players that were found out to be cheaters, botters, or gold buyers were ostracized and excluded from everything to the point of quitting the game. We policed ourselves.
Gradually, through the power of internet detectives, it was revealed that many of the top guilds were cheating and using claiming bots and tools for world spawns (which were the only endgame at the time). Many were also caught involved in gold and character sales.
As more and more players saw this going on and saw those players still in game and playing instead of being banned, the entire crusade of the players went from trying to stop it to realizing they couldn't. An "if you can't beat em join em" mentality took over and the game was never the same.
Long story short: If players see cheating is tolerated, be it by the devs or players, they'll cheat.
Actually.. I think it's something more like this..
I think a lot of people would love the idea of "not having to grind levels or quests to achieve what they want". Just consider how many people argue that levels should be eliminated completely.
What I also think, however, is this is another example of how short-sighted gamers can be, making them their own worst enemy. They want shorter-term achievement/gratification. It seems to be one of the more common solutions to "everything wrong with MMOs" according to much of what I read around here and elsewhere.
What people don't recognize is that that's also the reason they find themselves bored and complaining about nothing/little to do after only a few weeks.
They literally do not realize they are the cause of their own problems... that wanting everything "faster and easier" feels great "now", in the short term... but hinders the experience in the long term. It leaves them bored, wanting and ready to jump ship for the next game as soon as they get their Beta invite. And of course they'll repeat the same exact process in that game as well, be in the same position, and still wonder why "the devs keep getting it wrong".
The devs keep getting it wrong because the players keep sending the message that "faster, easier and more convenient" is what they want. And yet, every time, it falls short.
There's a problem here. A serious disconnect. And it lies with both the players and the devs. Devs are trying to do what players are asking for. Faster progression, more solo, more rewards, more hand-holding... more more faster faster easier easier.
Consider this...
1st/2nd and even some earlier 3rd gen MMOs spent relatively little on the development of their games. Yet, they earned large, loyal playerbases of people who stayed with them for years - over a decade in some cases. And many of them are still playing to this day... despite all the other, supposedly "better" options out there.
I know a popular response to that is,"Well there weren't as many options then, that's why", but that's really a BS answer. For two reasons:
By contrast, developers today are throwing 100s of millions of dollars at MMOs, and just can't seem to get it right. People, in large numbers, find themselves through all the content that interests them (an important point many people ignore), are bored and ready to move on to the next game within the first few months. Some people say 'so, why is that a problem? Who says you have to play a MMO for years?'. I have a pretty good idea why, but you'd be best of asking the people complaining that no new MMO has managed to keep them interested longer than a few weeks/months. They could answer you better than I could. I'd bet it has something to do with the idea that MMOs are supposed to be long-term hobbies... on-going adventures, potentially without end, in massive virtual worlds that continue expanding. They're not short-term "finish it and move on" affairs, like your typical console-style game.
It's going to require a major change in the players.. and in the devs. The players have to go first, though. Devs will not spend money on something until there's a demonstrable demand for it, and they feel comfortable spending money on it.
So, the question is.. Are those gamers, weened on the "casual friendly, highly accessible, constant gratification, queue-up-and-wait themepark" experience willing to step out of their own comfort zone and actually try something different? Not just dip their toes in, find it's "too different from what they're used to" and say "Nope.. too different. Devs, you have to make this game more like the last 15 I played, because that's the standard". But actually immerse themselves in it, adapt to new mechanics, get used to interacting with other players more, cut the umbilical cord, remove the training wheels and start becoming more reliant on themselves and/or their fellow players, rather than letting quest helpers and add-ons literally spell everything out for them...
Players demanding "faster, easier, more convenient" is largely what brought the genre to where it is now. The players are going to have to lead the way to get MMOs back to being large virtual worlds... not merely "games".
Instead of asking for levels to be removed, so they can burn through content and get bored even faster, people should start asking for the levels to be made more meaningful and full so they don't seem like a chore/bore, and each "ding!" of a new level feels like an accomplishment. Y'know... like it used to.
really can't explain it any better than this...
"
that's really a BS answer. For two reasons:
1.Whether there's 5 options, or 500.. people are not going to voluntarily continue to spend time and/or money on something they're not getting any value out of. If it's not fun to them, they ain't sticking around. And before anyone scoffs at that... look in the mirror and ask yourself that question. Will you continue to voluntarily spend time and money on any activity you are not getting sufficient enjoyment out of? To put it another way, if there's two steak houses in your town, and they both suck, you're not going to say "well, their food is horrible, but I guess we have no choice but to eat there because they're the only options in town". No, you're going to find another option. Buy some steaks and cook them at home. Go for a chicken dinner instead. Whatever. Unless you get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of playing games you consider crappy and don't enjoy... that's a whole other situation, then."
You make one big fat assumption here: that they will know of new restaurants. A lot of players tend to have a "don't care about other games" tendency, they don't inform themselves at all about newcomers.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
If the goal was to ensure that people who have less time to play could catch up to those with more time, it would be easy to implement. Rewards in drops and xp gain can grow for every hour of account time spent logged off. If the devs wanted to monetize that, they could sell it as an option. $15 a month buys regular game time, $20 a month buys you the sub plus bonuses for time spent logged out. Then they could fiddle around and see what is a good rate of drops and xp that makes people happy versus logging in, killing a bunny rabbit, dinging to level cap with the best gear and a full bank account, and feeling like you shouldn't have bothered.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I believe you are saying that MMOs have bad parts and those bad parts need to be cut out.
I believe what the other poster was saying is that those parts you consider bad aren't bad parts. People just don't realize this as they want instant gratification.
To me I feel I can see through the game mechanics of today's MMO games far to easily to ever waste money on them.
A better question is if you are paying to skip content then either the game is crappy or you don't care about the game. I feel the problem with today's gamers in they don't care about the game. It's not different with a movie, book, or any form of entertainment. If you aren't getting anything out of it then it's worthless.
The biggest question is why are people playing games they don't enjoy and paying money to skip content when there are so many forms of entertainment out there. Likely there would be one that fits their needs. Instead they try to bastardize a whole genre and they don't really care because from the comments I've read they don't care about the games at all. They are just entertainment. How they are entertainment if they have no meaning is beyond me.
AMAZING.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am not asking anything to be changed. The devs are offering it to to us.
Who said anything about no meaning.
I dont think you are reading the comments people are saying at all.
You specifically said in some of you posts that you don't care about RMT because you don't care about the games. They are just "entertainment" to you. In essence they mean nothing to you.
To say that because something is entertainment does not mean that you don't care about it.
You specifically said you don't care in one of your posts.
At any rate if you have no problems with RMT and skipping content then to me you don't really care about the game.
I believe there are games out there for you that you won't have to pay to skip content at all. They are called single player and multi player games.