Skipping content does not mean I dont care about the game. All it means is I dont want to do that but of content.
That's it. Nothing more. Anything else is just an incorrect assumption on your part.
What you don't realize is that being able to skip that content has an impact both on the game and everyone in the game. There was already a long post about it in the this thread.
When I'm playing I have no idea who has done what content or how they've played or really anything. You don't know those things about me. The content I'd still there for you. Achievements and there meaning are your personal opinions. That's it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Any impact is imo just your own perception.
Even if true (and it's not, as anyone who has seen the difference between an economy rife with RMT versus one that isn't), we don't really play MMOs divorced from our perceptions. We wouldn't enjoy them at all if we did.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
This is a pretty silly argument since cheating has been around since the MUD days. OP cites EQ has his first major MMO and there was plenty of cheating going on in EQ, from pathfinding exploits being used by just about any endgame raiding guild (even encouraged through raid design) and programs like ShowEQ that packet sniffed data and gave players information about where all spawns were, what loot it would drop, etc. I'd argue that cheating was even more prominent than major MMOs today by the average player in EQ and although there didn't really exist things like bot farms in third world countries there were some people taking major advantage of exploits and cheating in those games.
One thing I remember about EQ is there was a point in time where selling a crafted item with ingredients you can buy from a merchant would net the player very fast profit. For about a week's time, people created bots to do this over and over again - netting them lots of platinum. Some servers responded by camping the merchant to prevent cheating, but the damage was done and players benefitted from it, especially bots. Little was often done to combat this rampant cheating as GMs's time were often taken up by inter-guild disputes, ninja looting, and rampant bugs that would cause serious game breaking issues in the game.
Your right you don't play them divorced from your perception. Recognize that It is your perception and not reality. Other people view it different n. It'snot wrong just a different perspective.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I've seen the problems in rmt games ad noon entertainment games. The economy problems have to do with unlimited resources.
And developers dealing with RMT but not able or willing to use their resources to deal with it by proper bans and also developers perpetrating their own RMT come up with really annoying ways to limit those resources. Ways that impact my ability to farm for them for my own use in the game. A definite impact on me and one I loathe. It was very obvious in Guild Wars 2 and I wasn't the only one complaining.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Those same unlimited resource issues existed before rmt. So saying the problem was rmt is not true. Unlimited gold generation in a hand abd unlimited resource generation is the cause of game we game economy issues.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar It's is all perception. There has been virtually no facts started ib this thread. It is completely perception.
It's people like yourself that cause everything to go down the toilet in the gaming genre. What was once about fun is now about spending money to skip parts of games lol. Games are designed to have parts you want to skip intentionally. You just want to sit there and say that it's variety lol. It's so obvious it's a scam and you are wasting your money for nothing. You even vehemently defend your position like the devs actually care about you and you are getting what you want. In fact it's the devs who are getting what they want. They are happy you don't care about wasting your money to skip parts of games in a game that you obviously don't care about. They are probably happy you don't care about the game either because it's less hassle for them. What we end up with as the end result is a really crappy genre that is filled with people who don't really want to be playing these games in the first place. Who even knows why they are here.
No it's people like me that jut pay games. I think games are more fun now than ever before. Gangs always had parts I wanted to skip. Now I can.
The devs care about the same hings they always card about.
I'm happy I have mute options to game the way I want to. I'm happy I have more options of games and more variety of games including sandbox than ever before. And even more are coming.
Imo it's because devs started to cater to me and people like me that the game industry is bigger andbetter than ever before.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Those same unlimited resource issues existed before rmt. So saying the problem was rmt is not true. Unlimited gold generation in a hand abd unlimited resource generation is the cause of game we game economy issues.
Devs have to look at farming differently when RMT is involved.
When illicit RMT is involved they tend to nerf good farming in a (always failed) attempt to stop gold farmers.
When permitted RMT is involved they nerf good farming to make money by encouraging people to buy their gold. In the case of CREDD, it seems different, but they still have an incentive to nerf good farming spots in order to get players to buy gametime for other players who otherwise wouldn't be able to or willing to spend money. The permitted RMT requires a completely different mindset when it comes to balancing that involves calculations having nothing to do with player enjoyment and retention and everything to do with inducing more players to participate in RMT.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Pay and play that is.
Also, you should never skip out on your gang. That's family, bud
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Haha I hate typing on my phone
LOL.
That phone of yours could very well be the thing that finally pushes you over the edge.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by TangentPoint Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by Flyte27 Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Or they do not place the same value on it so any question of devalue is moot to them.In my opinion I am looking out for my best interest. I am getting the things I value the most out of the game and minimizing the things I value the least.
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
Actually.. I think it's something more like this..
I think a lot of people would love the idea of "not having to grind levels or quests to achieve what they want". Just consider how many people argue that levels should be eliminated completely.
What I also think, however, is this is another example of how short-sighted gamers can be, making them their own worst enemy. They want shorter-term achievement/gratification. It seems to be one of the more common solutions to "everything wrong with MMOs" according to much of what I read around here and elsewhere.
What people don't recognize is that that's also the reason they find themselves bored and complaining about nothing/little to do after only a few weeks.
They literally do not realize they are the cause of their own problems... that wanting everything "faster and easier" feels great "now", in the short term... but hinders the experience in the long term. It leaves them bored, wanting and ready to jump ship for the next game as soon as they get their Beta invite. And of course they'll repeat the same exact process in that game as well, be in the same position, and still wonder why "the devs keep getting it wrong".
The devs keep getting it wrong because the players keep sending the message that "faster, easier and more convenient" is what they want. And yet, every time, it falls short.
There's a problem here. A serious disconnect. And it lies with both the players and the devs. Devs are trying to do what players are asking for. Faster progression, more solo, more rewards, more hand-holding... more more faster faster easier easier.
Consider this...
1st/2nd and even some earlier 3rd gen MMOs spent relatively little on the development of their games. Yet, they earned large, loyal playerbases of people who stayed with them for years - over a decade in some cases. And many of them are still playing to this day... despite all the other, supposedly "better" options out there.
I know a popular response to that is,"Well there weren't as many options then, that's why", but that's really a BS answer. For two reasons:
Whether there's 5 options, or 500.. people are not going to voluntarily continue to spend time and/or money on something they're not getting any value out of. If it's not fun to them, they ain't sticking around. And before anyone scoffs at that... look in the mirror and ask yourself that question. Will you continue to voluntarily spend time and money on any activity you are not getting sufficient enjoyment out of? To put it another way, if there's two steak houses in your town, and they both suck, you're not going to say "well, their food is horrible, but I guess we have no choice but to eat there because they're the only options in town". No, you're going to find another option. Buy some steaks and cook them at home. Go for a chicken dinner instead. Whatever. Unless you get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of playing games you consider crappy and don't enjoy... that's a whole other situation, then.
There may have been "fewer choices back then", however - though it didn't really make a difference back then, either (see #1) - in the last 8 or so years, the number of options have multiplied, almost exponentially. There are tons of options out there now - which many will argue are superior to anything from the 1-3rd generation of MMOs. Yet, people continue to keep playing those old-school games... and they continue to run, right along side all these 'superior, modern alternatives'. There's a reason for that.. and it isn't only "because they already have so much time invested in them". It's because those games still provide a depth of experience that no modern MMO has been able to even hint at, much less emulate.
By contrast, developers today are throwing 100s of millions of dollars at MMOs, and just can't seem to get it right. People, in large numbers, find themselves through all the content that interests them (an important point many people ignore), are bored and ready to move on to the next game within the first few months. Some people say 'so, why is that a problem? Who says you have to play a MMO for years?'. I have a pretty good idea why, but you'd be best of asking the people complaining that no new MMO has managed to keep them interested longer than a few weeks/months. They could answer you better than I could. I'd bet it has something to do with the idea that MMOs are supposed to be long-term hobbies... on-going adventures, potentially without end, in massive virtual worlds that continue expanding. They're not short-term "finish it and move on" affairs, like your typical console-style game.
It's going to require a major change in the players.. and in the devs. The players have to go first, though. Devs will not spend money on something until there's a demonstrable demand for it, and they feel comfortable spending money on it.
So, the question is.. Are those gamers, weened on the "casual friendly, highly accessible, constant gratification, queue-up-and-wait themepark" experience willing to step out of their own comfort zone and actually try something different? Not just dip their toes in, find it's "too different from what they're used to" and say "Nope.. too different. Devs, you have to make this game more like the last 15 I played, because that's the standard". But actually immerse themselves in it, adapt to new mechanics, get used to interacting with other players more, cut the umbilical cord, remove the training wheels and start becoming more reliant on themselves and/or their fellow players, rather than letting quest helpers and add-ons literally spell everything out for them...
Players demanding "faster, easier, more convenient" is largely what brought the genre to where it is now. The players are going to have to lead the way to get MMOs back to being large virtual worlds... not merely "games".
Instead of asking for levels to be removed, so they can burn through content and get bored even faster, people should start asking for the levels to be made more meaningful and full so they don't seem like a chore/bore, and each "ding!" of a new level feels like an accomplishment. Y'know... like it used to.
really can't explain it any better than this...
Yep, complettely agree. I actually think that most of us on this side of the argument feel the same.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Those same unlimited resource issues existed before rmt. So saying the problem was rmt is not true. Unlimited gold generation in a hand abd unlimited resource generation is the cause of game we game economy issues.
Devs have to look at farming differently when RMT is involved.
When illicit RMT is involved they tend to nerf good farming in a (always failed) attempt to stop gold farmers.
When permitted RMT is involved they nerf good farming to make money by encouraging people to buy their gold. In the case of CREDD, it seems different, but they still have an incentive to nerf good farming spots in order to get players to buy gametime for other players who otherwise wouldn't be able to or willing to spend money. The permitted RMT requires a completely different mindset when it comes to balancing that involves calculations having nothing to do with player enjoyment and retention and everything to do with inducing more players to participate in RMT.
It literally does not matter cause for the people who buy even your "broken" farming spot is too much effort -the full time farmers will still occupy those spots and sell it below the economic cost of someone earning money in a normal job.
Also the demands for better bans is not sustainable longterm. Bots already play better than real people. In due time devs will never be able to tell one from another appart.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Those same unlimited resource issues existed before rmt. So saying the problem was rmt is not true. Unlimited gold generation in a hand abd unlimited resource generation is the cause of game we game economy issues.
Devs have to look at farming differently when RMT is involved.
When illicit RMT is involved they tend to nerf good farming in a (always failed) attempt to stop gold farmers.
When permitted RMT is involved they nerf good farming to make money by encouraging people to buy their gold. In the case of CREDD, it seems different, but they still have an incentive to nerf good farming spots in order to get players to buy gametime for other players who otherwise wouldn't be able to or willing to spend money. The permitted RMT requires a completely different mindset when it comes to balancing that involves calculations having nothing to do with player enjoyment and retention and everything to do with inducing more players to participate in RMT.
It literally does not matter cause for the people who buy even your "broken" farming spot is too much effort -the full time farmers will still occupy those spots and sell it below the economic cost of someone earning money in a normal job.
Also the demands for better bans is not sustainable longterm. Bots already play better than real people. In due time devs will never be able to tell one from another appart.
Ban botters, ban farmers, most important, permaban everyone who buys gold. Don't buy into the problem.
And even if devs don't ban as much as they should, I was very capable of farming up enough gold in WoW, even though it's got to be the world's biggest target for gold farmers.
Meanwhile, in Guild Wars 2, farming spot after farming spot got nerfed, but I still saw bots and RMT spam every day. So clearly their solution solved nothing and made things worse.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Comments
Skipping content does not mean I dont care about the game. All it means is I dont want to do that but of content.
That's it. Nothing more. Anything else is just an incorrect assumption on your part.
What you don't realize is that being able to skip that content has an impact both on the game and everyone in the game. There was already a long post about it in the this thread.
It has nothing to do with perception and everything to do with facts.
Even if true (and it's not, as anyone who has seen the difference between an economy rife with RMT versus one that isn't), we don't really play MMOs divorced from our perceptions. We wouldn't enjoy them at all if we did.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
This is a pretty silly argument since cheating has been around since the MUD days. OP cites EQ has his first major MMO and there was plenty of cheating going on in EQ, from pathfinding exploits being used by just about any endgame raiding guild (even encouraged through raid design) and programs like ShowEQ that packet sniffed data and gave players information about where all spawns were, what loot it would drop, etc. I'd argue that cheating was even more prominent than major MMOs today by the average player in EQ and although there didn't really exist things like bot farms in third world countries there were some people taking major advantage of exploits and cheating in those games.
One thing I remember about EQ is there was a point in time where selling a crafted item with ingredients you can buy from a merchant would net the player very fast profit. For about a week's time, people created bots to do this over and over again - netting them lots of platinum. Some servers responded by camping the merchant to prevent cheating, but the damage was done and players benefitted from it, especially bots. Little was often done to combat this rampant cheating as GMs's time were often taken up by inter-guild disputes, ninja looting, and rampant bugs that would cause serious game breaking issues in the game.
And developers dealing with RMT but not able or willing to use their resources to deal with it by proper bans and also developers perpetrating their own RMT come up with really annoying ways to limit those resources. Ways that impact my ability to farm for them for my own use in the game. A definite impact on me and one I loathe. It was very obvious in Guild Wars 2 and I wasn't the only one complaining.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
It's people like yourself that cause everything to go down the toilet in the gaming genre. What was once about fun is now about spending money to skip parts of games lol. Games are designed to have parts you want to skip intentionally. You just want to sit there and say that it's variety lol. It's so obvious it's a scam and you are wasting your money for nothing. You even vehemently defend your position like the devs actually care about you and you are getting what you want. In fact it's the devs who are getting what they want. They are happy you don't care about wasting your money to skip parts of games in a game that you obviously don't care about. They are probably happy you don't care about the game either because it's less hassle for them. What we end up with as the end result is a really crappy genre that is filled with people who don't really want to be playing these games in the first place. Who even knows why they are here.
We equals wIth
The devs care about the same hings they always card about.
I'm happy I have mute options to game the way I want to. I'm happy I have more options of games and more variety of games including sandbox than ever before. And even more are coming.
Imo it's because devs started to cater to me and people like me that the game industry is bigger andbetter than ever before.
Devs have to look at farming differently when RMT is involved.
When illicit RMT is involved they tend to nerf good farming in a (always failed) attempt to stop gold farmers.
When permitted RMT is involved they nerf good farming to make money by encouraging people to buy their gold. In the case of CREDD, it seems different, but they still have an incentive to nerf good farming spots in order to get players to buy gametime for other players who otherwise wouldn't be able to or willing to spend money. The permitted RMT requires a completely different mindset when it comes to balancing that involves calculations having nothing to do with player enjoyment and retention and everything to do with inducing more players to participate in RMT.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Also, you should never skip out on your gang. That's family, bud
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
LOL.
That phone of yours could very well be the thing that finally pushes you over the edge.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The point is not moot because people are acting against their own self interest. They just don't seem to realize it. You led something slide in game you also let something slide somewhere else. Eventually you have no freedom or rights left. Rights that someone likely fought hard for at one point. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of freedoms slip away in life as I've moved forward, but very few people seem to care. Many in fact defend the lose of freedom vehemently.
Yes exactly...
I don't think a lot of people realize why they enjoying leveling up and getting all the cool abilities in MMORPGs. Once again, it's not necessarily the abilities they want...they want the experience of earning them.
To illustrate this point, imagine an MMORPG where you can literally unlock any ability you want just by clicking a button. Would this be a good feature? I think the vast majority of people here would be vehemently against this feature. And the reason behind this is that it completely strips away the experience of earning or achieving something, and that is really what draws us to MMORPGs.
We don't want to just get all the stuff, we want to struggle for it.
And this struggle has a real value to us. I can remember seeing people in EQ with amazing weapons and looking at them with awe. I knew that they worked hard for that weapon, and that achievement meant something. They value of that weapon is hard to describe in monetary terms because anyone, rich or poor, would have to expend the same amount of effort to get it (unless they cheat via illegal RMT).
But when players are openly allowed to just buy in game achievements with money...I won't look at that weapon with awe...I will look at it and think "$70."
Actually.. I think it's something more like this..
I think a lot of people would love the idea of "not having to grind levels or quests to achieve what they want". Just consider how many people argue that levels should be eliminated completely.
What I also think, however, is this is another example of how short-sighted gamers can be, making them their own worst enemy. They want shorter-term achievement/gratification. It seems to be one of the more common solutions to "everything wrong with MMOs" according to much of what I read around here and elsewhere.
What people don't recognize is that that's also the reason they find themselves bored and complaining about nothing/little to do after only a few weeks.
They literally do not realize they are the cause of their own problems... that wanting everything "faster and easier" feels great "now", in the short term... but hinders the experience in the long term. It leaves them bored, wanting and ready to jump ship for the next game as soon as they get their Beta invite. And of course they'll repeat the same exact process in that game as well, be in the same position, and still wonder why "the devs keep getting it wrong".
The devs keep getting it wrong because the players keep sending the message that "faster, easier and more convenient" is what they want. And yet, every time, it falls short.
There's a problem here. A serious disconnect. And it lies with both the players and the devs. Devs are trying to do what players are asking for. Faster progression, more solo, more rewards, more hand-holding... more more faster faster easier easier.
Consider this...
1st/2nd and even some earlier 3rd gen MMOs spent relatively little on the development of their games. Yet, they earned large, loyal playerbases of people who stayed with them for years - over a decade in some cases. And many of them are still playing to this day... despite all the other, supposedly "better" options out there.
I know a popular response to that is,"Well there weren't as many options then, that's why", but that's really a BS answer. For two reasons:
By contrast, developers today are throwing 100s of millions of dollars at MMOs, and just can't seem to get it right. People, in large numbers, find themselves through all the content that interests them (an important point many people ignore), are bored and ready to move on to the next game within the first few months. Some people say 'so, why is that a problem? Who says you have to play a MMO for years?'. I have a pretty good idea why, but you'd be best of asking the people complaining that no new MMO has managed to keep them interested longer than a few weeks/months. They could answer you better than I could. I'd bet it has something to do with the idea that MMOs are supposed to be long-term hobbies... on-going adventures, potentially without end, in massive virtual worlds that continue expanding. They're not short-term "finish it and move on" affairs, like your typical console-style game.
It's going to require a major change in the players.. and in the devs. The players have to go first, though. Devs will not spend money on something until there's a demonstrable demand for it, and they feel comfortable spending money on it.
So, the question is.. Are those gamers, weened on the "casual friendly, highly accessible, constant gratification, queue-up-and-wait themepark" experience willing to step out of their own comfort zone and actually try something different? Not just dip their toes in, find it's "too different from what they're used to" and say "Nope.. too different. Devs, you have to make this game more like the last 15 I played, because that's the standard". But actually immerse themselves in it, adapt to new mechanics, get used to interacting with other players more, cut the umbilical cord, remove the training wheels and start becoming more reliant on themselves and/or their fellow players, rather than letting quest helpers and add-ons literally spell everything out for them...
Players demanding "faster, easier, more convenient" is largely what brought the genre to where it is now. The players are going to have to lead the way to get MMOs back to being large virtual worlds... not merely "games".
Instead of asking for levels to be removed, so they can burn through content and get bored even faster, people should start asking for the levels to be made more meaningful and full so they don't seem like a chore/bore, and each "ding!" of a new level feels like an accomplishment. Y'know... like it used to.
really can't explain it any better than this...
Yep, complettely agree. I actually think that most of us on this side of the argument feel the same.Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
It literally does not matter cause for the people who buy even your "broken" farming spot is too much effort -the full time farmers will still occupy those spots and sell it below the economic cost of someone earning money in a normal job.
Also the demands for better bans is not sustainable longterm. Bots already play better than real people. In due time devs will never be able to tell one from another appart.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Ban botters, ban farmers, most important, permaban everyone who buys gold. Don't buy into the problem.
And even if devs don't ban as much as they should, I was very capable of farming up enough gold in WoW, even though it's got to be the world's biggest target for gold farmers.
Meanwhile, in Guild Wars 2, farming spot after farming spot got nerfed, but I still saw bots and RMT spam every day. So clearly their solution solved nothing and made things worse.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein